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blankseplocked I have a dream... of equal resistances
 
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Perry
Amarr
The X-Trading Company
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.07 23:03:00 - [1]
 

Good evening Ladys and Gentleman.

For some time now a problem haunts this game and its players, us. And we can no longer close our eyes, while a minority of brave players suffers constant oppression and nerf. They promised to fix the glaring imbalances which cause this great suffering, but until now, nothing has been done! They give with the one hand, and they take with other! It is time to raise up and tell them: We want balance!

So, what is the problem? Countless rotten things have been thrown back and fourth in the past. The dead horses have allready risen and are used as undead mounts in wow. What is it, that makes amarr players stop playing to come here and flame the living crap out of ccp? I did question myself this. Because i play amarr since Beta. I should know, eh? I came up with the following: The cap bonus is okay, as long as the Damage of lasers is higher then every other races weapons, compared to operating range. And it is, on paper. But we dont shoot at paper bags floating around, do we? No, we shoot at eachother, flying the ships of our choice. This choice dictates what tactic to use, what weapons to mount and what things to avoid. The thing is: Every ship, from shuttle to titan has 60% base resistance to lasers main damage on its armor, and 60% base explosive resistance on its shield. But while there is no weapon group that is stuck with only explosive, and since only few ships actually shield tank, explosive users are okay. EM users are screwed when facing armor tanks. And most ships in pvp tank armor. There is no racial identity to tanking, everyone is immune to lasers without even trying.

I came to the conclusion that this is the core of the problem. 60% is too high as a base resistance. It leads to countless flamefests and wasted development time to find a solution in lasers or ship bonus, while the fact remains that its just unfair to amarr players to have every ship in the game getting 60% resist to them, while the three other races either shoot better damage types or are able to switch damagetypes around.


I forged a representation of the current state. The rotten core: little racial identities and anti amarr bias, leading to bad gameply experience. No one fears lasers, while everyone goes down to projectils fast:
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And this is only armor! Lets look at shields. No racial identities, everyone tanks autocannons:
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This results in the following damage reductions to weapontypes, based on typical damage spreads against the resists of T1 armor and shield.
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Lasers have a inbuild nerf when shooting armor tanks, while autocannons must avoid using t2 ammo on shilds.
If you do more math, it just gets worse, factoring in time to kill something omni-hardened with EM damage etc.

------------------------

What can we do to fix lasers and thus amarr, and to give tanking a racial flavor which doesnt lead to beeing auto-hardened against amarr? I played around with numbers and formulars. In the end i found out that lowering the base resistances of armor and shield was the key. By removing the 60% madness and adding stronger racial flavors to both armor and shields, we get pretty decent results (changes in red). Note that even Tech 1 gives racial flavor now!
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Even Shield looks much better now to projectil-lovers:
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And finally, the result:
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Omg! It worked out!

By moving tanking strength from base resistances to racials resists, we achive a much smoother damage spread, while keeping armor pretty tough to beat for lasers, and shields remain strong against projectils, but not "forced to switch ammo"-strong.
And... it makes sense

PCX339
STK Scientific
Posted - 2007.11.07 23:23:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: PCX339 on 07/11/2007 23:29:28

Wow, that was a lot of work. Well presented too.

There is a lot of information there. One thing I've always wondered is why minmatar shield tanks are basically the only tanks with no hole in the base resists. That's like having an extra hardener slot... what's up with that?

Edit: Hmm...nm. Amarr armor tanks are pretty hole-free too...



Eka Maladay
Gallente
The Elliance
Posted - 2007.11.07 23:24:00 - [3]
 

It make sense.... CCP won't like it. Sad

Danjira Ryuujin
Caldari
Posted - 2007.11.07 23:31:00 - [4]
 

So your goal was to decrease EM resists on armor across the board while increasing EX resists on amarr armor, and ignoring the gaping whole of EM on shields. Check.

Jinmie
Posted - 2007.11.08 00:10:00 - [5]
 

Yeah let's all be the same and only differentiated by our names and portraits.

achoura
Posted - 2007.11.08 00:13:00 - [6]
 

Well presented m8 Very Happy

So i ask you, without a weakness where is strategy?

IHurricane
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.11.08 00:25:00 - [7]
 

/signed by all my heart

Hopeless EQUILIBRIUM
Caldari
W33D Corp.
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.08 00:31:00 - [8]
 

/signed

TIlle
Posted - 2007.11.08 00:36:00 - [9]
 

/signed
Great topic !

Redd Lenses
Gallente
Red Federation
Posted - 2007.11.08 00:39:00 - [10]
 

Though I don't fly Amarr ships, this looks like a great idea.

The proposal is very well thought out and well presented and it would behoove CCP to look at this and take it into serious consideration.

Rahjadan Shardur
Minmatar
Mafia Redux
Posted - 2007.11.08 00:42:00 - [11]
 

Your calculations have one error: Hybrids do more Kin than Therm dmg.
For instance: Antimatter S does 11 Kin and 7 Therm and is way more common than the T2 charges, at least in its faction form.

Incantare
Posted - 2007.11.08 00:51:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Incantare on 08/11/2007 03:23:38

Though I agree with your intention of improving EM as a damage type I find myself disagreeing in the details.

Specifically the Caldari T2 shield resist entry: 0/80/70/60 becoming 0/85/70/40. 5% extra thermal resistance isn't worth losing 20% explosive over, even if in terms of percentual increases they may be the same in terms of average damage taken this is an unecessary nerf.

Sharanta Karell
Posted - 2007.11.08 00:52:00 - [13]
 

I've allways wondered why this topic gets hounded over so often yet Gallante do only kinnetic and thermal dmg with there guns but recieve very little attention. Sure you have a tough time against armor but you tear through shields like butter. While Gallente have it a middle of the road for both (usually). What you really need to look at is the total amout of dmg it takes to take a ship from 100% in shield, armor and hull to 0% in each. And the amount of time it takes to do that dmg. Only then will you have balance. After all none of our ships blow up after loosing all our sheilds or all our armor. Heck even a ship at 100% shields and armor and 1% structure is still pretty viable. You have to get through all 3. Then and only then will you be able to balance the dmg and the resists.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.11.08 00:54:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 08/11/2007 00:54:49
If you are going to move around resistances, then you should make the tech 1 resistance bonuses a percentage increase. Because flat increases benefit races that have high resistances against their racial enemies on their primary tanking type.

Such, Minmitar get a better deal for their tech 1 ships than Amarr do, becase +20 ex resistance bonus is 25% to the primary tanking form. But 20 EM is 33% resistance bonus.

This hurts Amarran armor tankers, and minmitar shield tankers.

But heavily benefits minmitar armor tankers and Amarran shield tankers. But tech 1 amarran shield tankers pretty much dont exist...

Crazy Yuri
Caldari
Posted - 2007.11.08 01:55:00 - [15]
 

Personally I think the easier change would be to remove 20% EM armor resist and add 20% EM resists to shields.

I agree that 60% base EM resists on Armor is too high. I think you idea is interesting but its making too many changes at once. Removing 20% EM resists from armor will even out lasers a bit more since this really matters most for pvp anyways.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.11.08 02:04:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Sharanta Karell
I've allways wondered why this topic gets hounded over so often yet Gallante do only kinnetic and thermal dmg with there guns but recieve very little attention. Sure you have a tough time against armor but you tear through shields like butter. While Gallente have it a middle of the road for both (usually). What you really need to look at is the total amout of dmg it takes to take a ship from 100% in shield, armor and hull to 0% in each. And the amount of time it takes to do that dmg. Only then will you have balance. After all none of our ships blow up after loosing all our sheilds or all our armor. Heck even a ship at 100% shields and armor and 1% structure is still pretty viable. You have to get through all 3. Then and only then will you be able to balance the dmg and the resists.


"middle of the road for both" is actually "good against both" because the difference between -50% damage and -25% damage is a 50% increase in damage done.

So, before resistance differences Gallente do about 50% more damage than Amarr against armor and Amarr does 20% more against shield.

Rooker
Lysian Enterprises
Posted - 2007.11.08 02:14:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Rooker on 08/11/2007 02:16:54
Let's just lop some EM off armor resists and give it to shields and lop some explo resists off shields and apply it to armor. Nevermind all that racial stuff. Bad enough my T2 Gallente ships have resists optimized against a race rarely used in PvP and leave a huge, gaping hole against the one race of ships that can stay out of my range.

And while we're at it, reverse the boneheaded EANM nerf of a few months ago, since that did absolutely nothing to fix this problem, made another problem worse and broke a number of ship set-ups without anything being accomplished.

edit/ got beaten to it while I was writing all that

Adrimar
Hellfire-Empire
Posted - 2007.11.08 04:46:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: PCX339
There is a lot of information there. One thing I've always wondered is why minmatar shield tanks are basically the only tanks with no hole in the base resists. That's like having an extra hardener slot... what's up with that?



They are also the t2 armor tanks that have two resistance holes, kinetic and explosive. Kinda balances out.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.11.08 05:20:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Goumindong

If you are going to move around resistances, then you should make the tech 1 resistance bonuses a percentage increase. Because flat increases benefit races that have high resistances against their racial enemies on their primary tanking type.


this.
no reason to repeat the mistake ccp made when they first added those flat 10% racial resistances.


re: the stats from the op
i agree with the general idea of moving em/expl a bit closer to the other values to make it less extreme but i think your changes are too strong.


also: your values after you have added those new dual racial bonuses seem too good in most cases with only one or even no hole at all to plug. from a first glance everyone but minmatar armor tankers would have a very easy time tanking with those changes.





Adam Weishaupt
Minmatar
Impel Industrial
Posted - 2007.11.08 06:16:00 - [20]
 

Interesting idea and decently executed, but didn't you just massively increase the resistance against blasters?

Perry
Amarr
The X-Trading Company
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.08 07:25:00 - [21]
 

Some explanations:

"Blasters do more kin then therm you noob!"
-> Yes, but all blaster ships have large dronebays full of thermal drones. Thus, therm is higher then kin.

"Percentage increases are better then flat bonus on tech 1!"
> Yes they are more fair. But it doesnt add up to 140% (armor) or 120% (shield). My goal was to keep these values untouched, so every tech 1 ship has the same overall number of resists. As long as the values arent extreme (like 60-70%), it doenst screw amarr/minmatar as much as it is currently.

"You nerfed blasters"
->welcome to balance. :) No really, wasnt my intention, but as soon as you start moving numbers around, hybrids loose out, This is due to the fact that under the current numbers, hybrids win big time. Cant get better.

Ishina Fel
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2007.11.08 09:04:00 - [22]
 

This is an interesting idea, and I like it. I also tried to follow you through the math you used, and I see what premises you were trying to uphold.

However, I must agree on the previosuly raised point about using flat bonuses and then applying percentages to them. That is a mathematical trap that must be avoided at all costs, even if the resistance sums come out slightly different in the end. It requires careful balancing, else the following happens:

Originally by: Incantare
Specifically the Caldari T2 shield resist entry: 0/80/70/60 becoming 0/85/70/40.


Which is clearly not balanced.

Dristra
Amarr
Idle Haven
Posted - 2007.11.08 09:13:00 - [23]
 

/Signed

Buyerr
Posted - 2007.11.08 09:35:00 - [24]
 

although i think your screwing the shield tanks over (which is just the facts of the total resist :S )

it is a very well made idea.

but those shield would have to have a boost for the shield tanks though

Meepie
Posted - 2007.11.08 10:17:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Perry
Some explanations:

"Blasters do more kin then therm you noob!"
-> Yes, but all blaster ships have large dronebays full of thermal drones. Thus, therm is higher then kin.

"Percentage increases are better then flat bonus on tech 1!"
> Yes they are more fair. But it doesnt add up to 140% (armor) or 120% (shield). My goal was to keep these values untouched, so every tech 1 ship has the same overall number of resists. As long as the values arent extreme (like 60-70%), it doenst screw amarr/minmatar as much as it is currently.

"You nerfed blasters"
->welcome to balance. :) No really, wasnt my intention, but as soon as you start moving numbers around, hybrids loose out, This is due to the fact that under the current numbers, hybrids win big time. Cant get better.



Well ofc, they have the worst range in the game, please come back when you have aquired a brain and can think beyond your own selfish views of whaaagh my pussie hurts I'm Amarr and not good at pvp.

Perry
Amarr
The X-Trading Company
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.08 11:11:00 - [26]
 

@Meevii or whatever he is called:
Didnt you see the "No trolls allowed" at the entrance to this forum? I feel personaly insulted by your reply and will not tolerate this kind of behavior in my topic. If you post such low stuff again, ill have your posting rights revoked. Please stick to constructive arguments here. Thank you.

To all:
Im gratefull of your replys and think that my idea might be a bit over the top. But we all know, ccp likes over the top solutions :) Of course we could just swap 20em from armor to shield, but the number would flip, armor would be at 120% and shield at 140%. This leads to a big fat shield tanking nerf, because shield modules are superior if focused on, eg no ew.

LiBraga
NailorTech Industries
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.08 11:56:00 - [27]
 

No offense but what you've done is make omni tanks more viable for armour tankers, whilst making specific hardening a requirement for shield tankers.

But to be honest I wouldn't mind your suggestion if shield tankers got an extra 20% to EM.
Thus bringing shield Tech 1 resistance totals to equal armours, both being at 140%.
Maybe you should revise the Caldari shield resistance on T2 though.
The majority of npcs in caldari pve require a kinetic/thermal tank and what you've done is boosted the pve tank.

Meepie
Posted - 2007.11.08 13:02:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Meepie on 08/11/2007 13:16:41
Originally by: Perry
@Meevii or whatever he is called:
Didnt you see the "No trolls allowed" at the entrance to this forum? I feel personaly insulted by your reply and will not tolerate this kind of behavior in my topic. If you post such low stuff again, ill have your posting rights revoked. Please stick to constructive arguments here. Thank you.


Were you the kid at school that used to tell on everyone?

You gonna log to your over ego'd moderator alt then?


Is it so hard to see how MEEPIE is spelt, meevii, lols you should have gone to specsavers.



Your thread fails, you have a dream of equal resistance yet your solution doesn't give equal resistances and each weapon system faces a different combined resistance to shoot at for base t1 shield or armour... With funnily enough Amarr having the least combined resistances to fire at and Gallente / Minmatar the most... Your balance fails on numbers, it's a good job you aren't a dev too because you haven't taken any wide scoped game balance into consideration like base ranges of the weapon systems and the rammifications in actual average combat.

CCP showed the Amarr whiners about nos, neuts and missile weapons in the tournament that your ships are fine, and if you want to whine about laser damage, how about watching any Cown movie showing that Amarr pvp is fine. The way some of you guys whine so much about lasers you could lead us to believe they reflect back off our armour and hit you.

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2007.11.08 13:45:00 - [29]
 

Keep dreaming ...

Igualmentedos
Caldari
Posted - 2007.11.08 13:52:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Meepie
Edited by: Meepie on 08/11/2007 13:16:41
Originally by: Perry
@Meevii or whatever he is called:
Didnt you see the "No trolls allowed" at the entrance to this forum? I feel personaly insulted by your reply and will not tolerate this kind of behavior in my topic. If you post such low stuff again, ill have your posting rights revoked. Please stick to constructive arguments here. Thank you.


Were you the kid at school that used to tell on everyone?

You gonna log to your over ego'd moderator alt then?


Is it so hard to see how MEEPIE is spelt, meevii, lols you should have gone to specsavers.



Your thread fails, you have a dream of equal resistance yet your solution doesn't give equal resistances and each weapon system faces a different combined resistance to shoot at for base t1 shield or armour... With funnily enough Amarr having the least combined resistances to fire at and Gallente / Minmatar the most... Your balance fails on numbers, it's a good job you aren't a dev too because you haven't taken any wide scoped game balance into consideration like base ranges of the weapon systems and the rammifications in actual average combat.

CCP showed the Amarr whiners about nos, neuts and missile weapons in the tournament that your ships are fine, and if you want to whine about laser damage, how about watching any Cown movie showing that Amarr pvp is fine. The way some of you guys whine so much about lasers you could lead us to believe they reflect back off our armour and hit you.


You must not be very intelligent. The tournament represents a form of PVP you will never see in EVE.


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