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greeny knight
Amarr
Solar Storm
Posted - 2007.11.09 10:06:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Jasmine Constantine

Not with Sev3rance flagged vessels you aren't. We watch your Towers round the clock. Thats pretty much where you are.



mm greeny on pos lol your info is scetchy and thats a understatment
only thing you see from me on a pos is a empty ship because i get the cloacking flea from uk

Mad Scorpion
Minmatar
Raiders of the Open Stars
Posted - 2007.11.09 12:56:00 - [92]
 

A very good read Lady Constantine.

It's truly amazing on how much spin is now being spoken. However it's also important to note that no one has disputed the kill numbers, and after all that is what's important. Winning or losing is not based upon words or feelings, but numbers. Numbers in this case do not lie.

Fly safe and valiant free pilots.


Octavinus Augustus
Amarr
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.09 13:39:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Mad Scorpion
Winning or losing is not based upon words or feelings, but numbers.


Let's try not to get this one going again shall we?

Suffice to say that the Amarr Block tend to view winning/losing as a function of what outcome a given conflict has.

In other words, even if we lose 10 times as much as we kill but retain sovereignty of all Providence we will view this as a victory on our part.

For those that use these parameters for success, the campaign by SF can be seen as an utter failure up until this point.

I realise that SF (and U'K, ENH Sani Sabik etc??) may see things differently and consequently reach different conclusions. That is your prerogative.

Originally by: Mad Scorpion
Fly safe and valiant free pilots.


As a cheap spin comment to this, I could remark that the free SF pilots do fly safe - they tend to stay in empire or remain cloaked. But to be honest, i haven't really been up around KBP much lately, so this comment is mostly based on the comments made here on IGS


Djuma Nihilist
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2007.11.09 13:50:00 - [94]
 

Wreck

Changed pic to a link - Cortes

Tharrn
Amarr
Epitoth Fleet Yards
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.09 15:40:00 - [95]
 

Wasn't that covered in the week one diary?

Ralle030583
Mystic Lion Hearts
Sev3rance
Posted - 2007.11.09 19:10:00 - [96]
 

lol...
nice to see that you have to remind the Horizons looses every time.
I personaly even dont count them to -7- looses cause they were only very short in -7- and left very fast and not even full member in my eyes.

But its ok you need the kills to push your stats ;-)

Lorna V
Minmatar
IronPig
Sev3rance
Posted - 2007.11.09 19:39:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: Lorna V on 09/11/2007 19:45:01
Originally by: Mad Scorpion
A very good read Lady Constantine.

It's truly amazing on how much spin is now being spoken. However it's also important to note that no one has disputed the kill numbers, and after all that is what's important. Winning or losing is not based upon words or feelings, but numbers. Numbers in this case do not lie.

Fly safe and valiant free pilots.



Frankly, we're not concerned about the numbers because they're not as one-sided as SF would have you believe. There's a reason that SF doesn't let dollars and cents lost come into it, and it's not because they're so rich they just don't care. Here are the facts: we've suffered 5.4bil in losses from SF and they've suffered roughly 3.8bil. Keep in mind this includes a freighter AND carrier loss from week one by the industrial savant corp horizons (who were in -7- for about a week), and a week and a half of lone pilot empire ganks while they avoided real combat at all costs. The freighter was lost 33 days ago, the carrier 35. If those were going to make a dent in our collective psyches, and our corresponding will to fight, they certainly would have done so by now. Since then we've, instead, been winning. That's right, I'll say it again: For 33 days of a 35 day war, we have been winning. By extension, Star Fraction has been losing.

Ability to project power into our systems? Lost
Ability to prevail in fleet combat? Lost
Ability to rally their own forces in the numbers seen in the first days of the war? You tell me, Jade. Frankly, I haven't seen it.

Shall, I even mention the TENS OF BILLIONS spent on allied support and war fees for these dismal results? Originally the goal was to remove first Cold Steel, followed by -7- from our respective systems. Now the goal is only to fight a was of attrition in Dihra of all places. They're not even at war with their primary target Cold Steel anymore. Now it's just an empire war (against a 0.0 alliance); their (recently) self-proclaimed favorite style of war. More exactly, it's a group of 6-10 Star Fraction pilots docked in Dihra doing nothing of significance, and certainly nothing that would ever diminish our ability to hold our space, and/or our fleet combat superiority.

So, now that you're more adequately informed, you tell me Mr. Scorpion: Are you still so sure that the numbers in this case do not lie?


BTW: Mr. Scorpion? As far as I'm concerned if you haven't shot or been shot by -7- yet, you're not really in UK. And, moreover, if the first bullet you fire is in a forum post, you never should be. For now, I'll just assume you don't speak for them, because frankly, there are quite a few of them I respect more than that.


Lorna V

The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.11.09 19:52:00 - [98]
 

Once again, Lorna V gets her facts wrong: Cold Steel were not the primary target for this phase of the Star Fraction campaign.

The Cosmopolite



Lorna V
Minmatar
IronPig
Sev3rance
Posted - 2007.11.09 19:55:00 - [99]
 

Edited by: Lorna V on 09/11/2007 19:56:35

Lorna V
Minmatar
IronPig
Sev3rance
Posted - 2007.11.09 19:56:00 - [100]
 

Edited by: Lorna V on 09/11/2007 20:00:01
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
Once again, Lorna V gets her facts wrong: Cold Steel were not the primary target for this phase of the Star Fraction campaign.

The Cosmopolite





Right. Not this new phase. New phase starting because last phase failed. Previous phase being remove Cold Steel Alliance from their space. Don't be so purposefully obtuse, Cosmo.

Lorna V
[/i]

The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.11.09 20:00:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Lorna V

Right. Not this new phase. New phase starting because last phase failed. Previous phase being remove Cold Steel Alliance form their space. Don't be so purposefully obtuse, Cosmo.

Lorna V



I'm sorry, I am talking about the entirety of Operation Terminus Est to date. Cold Steel Alliance were not the primary target. You have your facts wrong in this regard.

The Cosmopolite

Lorna V
Minmatar
IronPig
Sev3rance
Posted - 2007.11.09 20:12:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: The Cosmopolite
Originally by: Lorna V

Right. Not this new phase. New phase starting because last phase failed. Previous phase being remove Cold Steel Alliance form their space. Don't be so purposefully obtuse, Cosmo.

Lorna V



I'm sorry, I am talking about the entirety of Operation Terminus Est to date. Cold Steel Alliance were not the primary target. You have your facts wrong in this regard.

The Cosmopolite



Not clear on your point except that being overly exact is the only means you have of making a point at all. I'll tell you my point, though. It is that you've had no success in Providence except in transferring ownership of Slammer's space to CVA. You said Cold Steel would be the next to fall. They didn't. Now you're noobing about Empire chasing rookies and industrials to not much effect. It's clearly just a desperate attempt to pad your killboard while you try and figure out how to reclaim some dignity. Why even call it a stage at all? How about we call it a concession prize instead? Sort of a "Sorry, you failed, but here's an 'I killed a hauler in Amaar' t-shirt for your trouble." Enjoy it, but I thinks it's friggin' pathetic.


Lorna V

The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.11.09 20:30:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Lorna V

Not clear on your point except that being overly exact is the only means you have of making a point at all. I'll tell you my point, though. It is that you've had no success in Providence except in transferring ownership of Slammer's space to CVA. You said Cold Steel would be the next to fall. They didn't.



My point is that the above is totally incorrect. As I say, you keep making false claims and getting your facts wrong. Makes everything you say look like a fiction.

The Star Fraction was not the guiding power of any campaign against Slammer's and the Star Fraction neither made the claim that Cold Steel would 'be next to fall' or set out to make it so.

Believe what you wish. Don't expect anyone reading the totality of Sev3rance posting to be particularly persuaded by it though. Conjuring with the word 'pathetic' while ignoring your own CEO's wish for a more dignified debate seems rather unfortunate to me. However, suit yourselves.

The Cosmopolite

Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.11.09 21:58:00 - [104]
 

Star Fraction has every reason to be proud of the damage they've inflicted; I congradulate their efforts and wish them the best of luck. And if Sev is pleased with their combat performance, their level of security in their sovereign space, and the 'friendly military advice' (with absolutely no strings attached) provided by their tyranical slaver neighbors, then by all means, be pleased with it!

(Remember, the chains don't mean you're "slaves" as such, they are merely "the first step toward a future in which your distant decendents might be enlightened Amarrian sub-citizens", and the vials labelled "VITOC" are actually "humanitarian medical supplies".)

As a point of amusement: weren't the Slammers crowing about how high their morale was and how they'd fight to the bitter end -- right up until the bitter end came shortly thereafter, as it turned out?

Originally by: "Alois Hammer, 2007.10.02"
we will fight for our land for as long as this game will go , do not for 1 moment think we will ever give you these systems .they are ours

Originally by: "Public Agent, 2007.10.13"
The Slammer's Republic is formally surrendering to Aza under the following conditions:


And now, let's return to blowing each other up in a nice, civil manner and see how things turn out, shall we?

Lorna V
Minmatar
IronPig
Sev3rance
Posted - 2007.11.09 22:00:00 - [105]
 

Edited by: Lorna V on 09/11/2007 22:19:27
You know what? Nevermind. Done talking.

The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.11.09 22:40:00 - [106]
 

Your analysis of the state of the Star Fraction in terms of its member motivation, leadership, operations and general well-being is so far off the mark that it is not worth countering in any substantive way. I deny it in toto. You are just ranting out your opinions of how the Star Fraction is performing on the basis of a mistaken view that appears to think we are obsessed with quick results, and get all hot and bothered when the inevitable ebb and flow in the fortunes of war occurs.

You are simply wrong about these matters. We will prosecute this campaign as we see fit, at our pace, our level of intensity, as appropriate, and with maximum flexibility to suit us. Make spurious points off the back of that all you like. Whatever makes you feel better.

You believe we have 'failed' utterly thus far. We don't believe we have 'failed' in any broad sense, holding that there is no basis at this point to make any kind of judgement about success or failure.

Our views on that are at odds. That's ultimately what it comes down to and I see no real point in going at it on this issue when we will never persuade one another. The independent observer can make their own mind up, if interested, by looking at the information to hand. We openly advertise our War Diary as our view. People are free to produce their own and debate reasonably over the various accounts.

We do think a certain amount of respect should be shown to war reports and we have demonstrated that we will not crawl over our foes' reports, picking at every detail, on several occasions. We simply prefer a plurality of accounts to fluorish so that the independent can read all and come to have a picture that is hopefully a synthesis of all the available material.

This is why I am really not too worried about anything you say, as I trust in people to make up their own minds one way or the other. This is why I think spending time denying your more florid and fantastic claims would be time ill-spent. You must judge for yourself if your time spent making such claims is profitable. I'd have a hard time convincing myself in that regard but it takes all sorts.

The Cosmopolite


Vitrael
Reaper Industries
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.11.10 01:49:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: The Cosmopolite
Your analysis of the state of the Star Fraction in terms of its member motivation, leadership, operations and general well-being is so far off the mark that it is not worth countering in any substantive way. I deny it in toto. You are just ranting out your opinions of how the Star Fraction is performing on the basis of a mistaken view that appears to think we are obsessed with quick results, and get all hot and bothered when the inevitable ebb and flow in the fortunes of war occurs.

Or, if you still require an interpreter for Cosmo: you are not in our heads. The fight goes on.

Senite Ascani
Gallente
Celestial Janissaries
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.10 02:35:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Vitrael
The fight goes on.


Couldn't have said it better myself.

GulletSplitter
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2007.11.10 03:10:00 - [109]
 

Quote:

We simply prefer a plurality of accounts to fluorish so that the independent can read all and come to have a picture that is hopefully a synthesis of all the available material.



And I for one thank you for this in particular....

Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.10 03:41:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Becq Starforged

As a point of amusement: weren't the Slammers crowing about how high their morale was and how they'd fight to the bitter end -- right up until the bitter end came shortly thereafter, as it turned out?

Originally by: "Alois Hammer, 2007.10.02"
we will fight for our land for as long as this game will go , do not for 1 moment think we will ever give you these systems .they are ours

Originally by: "Public Agent, 2007.10.13"
The Slammer's Republic is formally surrendering to Aza under the following conditions:



I'm afraid comparing Slammers to Severence in terms of motivation, capability, and...well, very much anything else is a bit ignorant. I believe (and I would need to check this) that from the time the campaign against Slammers was announced to the time they surrendered, unmanned Slammers towers had scored significantly more kills against hostile ships than any Slammers pilot or fleet.

Slammers were also convinced that the campaign against them was part of a greater Ushra'Khan and CVA scheme.

You can see that any comparison of Slammers and Severence on a tactical or psychological level is more or less futile. Except in cases of "how to" and "how not to."

Djuma Nihilist
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2007.11.10 18:44:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: Garreck

Slammers were also convinced that the campaign against them was part of a greater Ushra'Khan and CVA scheme.



And you're certain about that i suppose? Laughing

Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.10 19:14:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Djuma Nihilist
Originally by: Garreck

Slammers were also convinced that the campaign against them was part of a greater Ushra'Khan and CVA scheme.



And you're certain about that i suppose? Laughing

I'm not sure what you're asking here, but Public Agent did write a poem about it, yeah.

Gaius Kador
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.11.10 20:27:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Becq Starforged

And now, let's return to blowing each other up in a nice, civil manner and see how things turn out, shall we?



You must be the smart one ;)

Comments like these, coupled with the promise of the Ammatar Mandate, is why I keep believing one day you will fulfill the potential we saw in you when we first brought the Word of God to your primitive lands.

Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.11.12 12:42:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Octavinus Augustus

Suffice to say that the Amarr Block tend to view winning/losing as a function of what outcome a given conflict has.
In other words, even if we lose 10 times as much as we kill but retain sovereignty of all Providence we will view this as a victory on our part.
For those that use these parameters for success, the campaign by SF can be seen as an utter failure up until this point.
I realise that SF (and U'K, ENH Sani Sabik etc??) may see things differently and consequently reach different conclusions. That is your prerogative.



Important point you make there Octavinus Augustus. Several important points to be precise. Firstly it is good to see an enemy finally appreciating the reality that each organization has its own set of "win conditions" and markers for determining progress in a military campaign. The knowledge that there is no objective "standard" for such progress is a very important thing for readers to realize. The CVA may well consider that Sovereignty is everything. That is the only thing they care about, that its the only measure of anything - but thats the CVA and its your own specific perspective and cannot be considered binding on anybody else's view. And its very useful to see this clearly expressed because it does shed light on your responses to military attack: no wonder you consider you've never been touched or wounded by mere ship loss if the only thing you care about is the sovereignty marker on the galactic map.

Then of course we have the issue of "stacking the deck" on win conditions. We all know how incredibly difficult it actually is to change sovereignty in the current state of technology. I'd wager a good number of our readers also understand just how immense a task it is to bring down a single cyno jammer anchored at a single "death star" POS. I imagine most understand that such things are utterly beyond the capability of all but the largest nullsec alliances and simply reading about the huge clash of arms required in the ongoing "Great War" between the Alliance and the Coalition will inform what a massively momentous task achieving any sort of progress on this level actually is.

You in the Amarrian bloc are of course entirely free to set your own "win conditions" of course, but lets not fool ourselves by failing to understand that "maintain sovereignty" over X system is currently about as difficult to achieve as Star Fraction members stating that "maintain ownership of our tech2 bpos" is one of ours. Current technology in nullsec provides an immense defensive bonus for the territorial power. Immense. We live in the age of empire building and Tower proliferation, it is easier than ever before to defend what one has in space and given that conventional wisdom (even power sovereignty and cyno jamming) required an estimated 5-10x numerical advantage to attack a fixed postition in space, I trust everyone can see how a significantly outnumbered and generally outgunned insurgent force is going to have trouble sieging a hugely defended position against overwhelming numbers of native levies.

Point is. Victory Conditions that are "too easy" to achieve are effectively meaningless beyond the low-brow propaganda usage. Its my contention that the CVA "maintain sovereignty" falls into this category.

As a Star Fraction "we continue to exist" would be "too easy" for us to achieve, and would again be meaningless in any useful objective sense.

Which leaves us with what?

Ships killed (meaningless to CVA because they only care about Sovereignty)
Capital ships killed (meaningless to CVA because they only care about Sovereignty)
Quislings forced to quit the cause? (meaningless to CVA because they only care about Sovereignty)
Economic disruption in Amarrian bloc?
Lack of ease and peace for Amarrian "pets?"

Etc etc.

In other words, there is no common point of understanding for assessing victory or defeat that both CVA and its foes will admit.





Irons
Amarr
IronPig
Sev3rance
Posted - 2007.11.12 18:17:00 - [115]
 

I would be extremely interested Jasmine on how you determine a 'Win Condition' from your own point of view as you have so clearly asessed ours and painted some very imaginative findings.

Contrary to your opinion (of which you are quite welcome to in your own diary), Sev3rance judge every individual skirmish on its own merits. Every pod pilot that falls during battle matters. Every vessel destroyed at the hands of the non-believers matters. Every failed operation is a learning process and is just as important to us as those operations that are successful.

Clearly this war will not end anytime soon, and that is fine with myself and the pilots that fly alongside me.

For the record and for the history books, although our allies may fall by the wayside, as long as there is a single member of Sev3rance left standing in our home, you will not prevail.

Reash
Amarr
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.12 18:42:00 - [116]
 

I believe you has misunderstood the meaning of Soverenty in this case Jasmine.

While the official CONCORD sov markers have a purpose they are not the be all and end all to the CVA by any means, i believe what is meant is the control of the systems, at current our objectives have been to secure specific systems on which our enemies were focusing their efforts on. We have indeed suceeded in vastly reducing enemy activity in those systems and in the case of Star Fraction there has been a very much reduced presence in Providence with Star Fraction pilots seeking engagments in the relativly safer areas of empire space.

M00dy
Minmatar
Killed In Action
Posted - 2007.11.13 18:36:00 - [117]
 

When I read Jade (oh sorry I mean Jasmine) posts I touch myself.

Good job so far and gl.

Free Jade.

Xenea
Amarr
Posted - 2007.11.15 19:32:00 - [118]
 

Yes is the answer and you know that for sure.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.11.20 15:22:00 - [119]
 

Edited by: Rodj Blake on 20/11/2007 15:34:48
Any news on when we can expect to see the Week 5 diary?

I'm sure that there are many people eagerly awaiting the next installment of this gripping magnum opus, especially as this episode implied that the SF were poised on the brink of victory against Sev3rance.

Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.11.20 23:25:00 - [120]
 


I think its going to be a review of "month two" with more general progress for the next version. As indicated by the conclusion of this one we were not "on the brink of victory" as your straw man argument would wish to hear Rodj. We were in the situation of suppressing a foe's empire movements while being unable to winkle them out of their Tower defenses in 0.0. This situation remains much the same. We score kills each day, good kills in some cases, while gradually turning the war in our favor. The enemy tells their troops our presence "doesn't matter" while encouraging its pilots to remain in Towers and avoid unnecessary empire transit. There are some interesting developments to report certainly, but not enough to justify weekly reporting at the current level of intensity. The war has a long time yet to run I suspect, at the moment patience is a virtue and attrition is the name of the game.




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