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EscortQueen
Posted - 2007.11.08 07:58:00 - [31]
 

I really don't see the problem here.

Do you see anyone complaining about the ammo that is wasted while being weapon disrupted?

Do you see people complain about missiles been blown up using smartbombs or defenders (except of the waste of defenders maybe Twisted Evil)

I shoot your drones, sentries for instance, and you scoop them just before armor and redeploy them right after and they have all the shield back is MAYBE to powerful.

And remote rep bonus on drone ships? You have logistic ships for remote repairing. Your drones orbit you at 1.5km, maybe less. That is perfectly inside the range of every remote repair module.

And less drone boats, less lag, hurray! Cool

Mc Fraser
Minmatar
ROMANIA Renegades
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2007.11.08 08:12:00 - [32]
 

drones cost a lot considering how week they are. and u can but a lot of ammo in you cargo but u cant but a lot of drones:)

Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
Posted - 2007.11.08 08:16:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Nian Banks
Originally by: Cybrex
well i have to kill my isk and have no change of keeping them alive. i also worrie about fighters :( . its not hard to kill 10 ogra 2's if u cant rep them. u can trie with a remote rep but that wont ***rk very good



Is it really that ineffective using shield transporters? Most drone boats have utility high slots so with the nos nerf, surely it would be a nasty surprise to the opponents if the drone they think would be an easy target just won't die.


How many drone ships (vexor, myrm, domi, ishtar, eos) do you fly on a regular basis? Let's start with that.


To be honest I only fly for amusement sometimes an Ishkur, but using 3x blasters and keeping close range I could happily repair a drone at a time. True its not anything kile scoop and deploy but atleast it can be done.

Darken Two
Gallente
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.11.08 08:33:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: EscortQueen
I really don't see the problem here.

Do you see anyone complaining about the ammo that is wasted while being weapon disrupted?

Do you see people complain about missiles been blown up using smartbombs or defenders (except of the waste of defenders maybe Twisted Evil)

I shoot your drones, sentries for instance, and you scoop them just before armor and redeploy them right after and they have all the shield back is MAYBE to powerful.

And remote rep bonus on drone ships? You have logistic ships for remote repairing. Your drones orbit you at 1.5km, maybe less. That is perfectly inside the range of every remote repair module.

And less drone boats, less lag, hurray! Cool


What are you talkin about? Tech 2 drones cost a lot of money. And I def cannot put 5000 of them in my cargo hold like ammo, so wasting them is not an option.

And remote rep ? do you even know how long it takes to lock a drone.

By your idea, I should launch drones then lock all 5 of them and make sure I have them all in repair range at all times. so I can lock a maximum of 2 hostile targets then.

Don't say stupid things taht you know nothing about.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2007.11.08 08:37:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: EscortQueen
Do you see anyone complaining about the ammo that is wasted while being weapon disrupted?



So how much does your "ammo" cost over the course of a 5 cruiser minute engagement, eh? I think faction scourge runs 2k/missile...

I think a caracal will spit out about 5 * 44 missiles (including reload) over 5 minutes... yielding 440K/300 sec = 1,467 ISK/sec

A Vexor, OTOH, will lose a drone every 6.7 - 13.5 seconds to the Caracal (depending on skills). How much does a Hammerhead II cost? Oh yeah... somewhere between 1.5-2M ISK IIRC.

1,500,000 / 6.7 = 223,881 ISK/sec
2,000,000 / 6.7 = 298,507 ISK/sec

1,500,000 / 13.5 = 111,111 ISK/sec
2,000,000 / 13.5 = 148,148 ISK/sec

No matter how you slice the pie, it's costing the drone user ten times what it costs you "in ammo" to run T2 drones to your faction missiles.

Quite literally, they're asking the Arbitrator to carry thirty million in drones as "backups".

Besides, your entire attitude is "I'm scissors, and paper's fine. Nerf rock".

Liang

Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Dark Prophecy Inc.
Posted - 2007.11.08 08:43:00 - [36]
 

Dont use overprized drones?

Darken Two
Gallente
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.11.08 08:45:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Darken Two on 08/11/2007 08:46:47
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Dont use overprized drones?


Ok we wont' if you'll stop using the follwing

1. Tech 2 guns & Ammo
2. Tech 2 Launchers & Ammo
3. Faction Launchers & Ammo
4. Faction Guns & Ammo

Fair trade ? if you think not, shut up about drones.

Oh and PS. Most of us didnt tarin millions in drone skills so we could use tech 1 drones.

Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Dark Prophecy Inc.
Posted - 2007.11.08 08:52:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 08/11/2007 08:54:46
Well if you calculate how many drones you can buy with t2/faction weapons you will see my point. Consider that you will lose your ships and have to replace these modules as well from time to time.


Add: There are other t2 drones than thermal ones, which are considerably cheaper and not as bad as everyone tries to tell you (expect for the amarr one)

Darken Two
Gallente
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.11.08 08:57:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 08/11/2007 08:54:46
Well if you calculate how many drones you can buy with t2/faction weapons you will see my point. Consider that you will lose your ships and have to replace these modules as well from time to time.


Add: There are other t2 drones than thermal ones, which are considerably cheaper and not as bad as everyone tries to tell you (expect for the amarr one)


So ? I will have to train for drones from 4 different races. Just shut up already.

And how often do you lose T2 or faction turrets in missions?

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2007.11.08 09:09:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Benn Helmsman

Well if you calculate how many drones you can buy with t2/faction weapons you will see my point. Consider that you will lose your ships and have to replace these modules as well from time to time.



Comparing losing a faction weapon in PVP to losing a drone? This is rather classic, even for you. So, how many medium T2 drones can I buy with a T2 Heavy Launcher (also a medium sized weapon). One.

Quote:

Add: There are other t2 drones than thermal ones, which are considerably cheaper and not as bad as everyone tries to tell you (expect for the amarr one)


I'm actually very fond of Minmatar drones, but the best results do come from thermal drones.

Liang

Mc Fraser
Minmatar
ROMANIA Renegades
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2007.11.08 09:25:00 - [41]
 

i dont do missions but have done few. and i know how easy it is to lose drones. now its too easy for them to die. CCP really please consider a different change.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.08 09:47:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: ZaKma
Originally by: Alski
To be fair, the idea is that we'll all have bigger dronebays so insted of scoop/repair/relaunch we'll just let them die and launch more.

I worrey though that this is going break fighters, they are too weak allready, not being able to repair them is going to make them even more vulnerable.


The thing is, we don't. All dronebays still have the same size they have now. Confused


For that to work we need to know the damage level of the drones while in the drone bay.

If I recall a wing of drones because 2 of them have heavy damage and then launch a second group, where other 2 drones get heavy damage, how will I go deciding what drones I should launch?

Recall 2 of the second group (othen less efficent than recalling them all and then redeploing), launch 2 of the first group, look the damage level, move one in group 2 recall the other, launch another drone, till I have a intact combat group?

It will cost a lot of time if done in combat, and even if done during a calm moment reshuffling the groups so you have "damaged drones" group and one or more "intract drones" groups currently will require to launch every single drone to check is damage status.

Jinmie
Posted - 2007.11.08 10:01:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Buyerr
loled your so ridicules i can't do anything but laugh at your comment :P hhehehehhehe

uhhh so i DON'T get to have a free weapon type that can change:
dmg type.
seize between any seized weapon.
gives as high dps as the main guns.
and can't be taken down.
and can change within 1 sec :P

and on top of that i of cause have the full support of my normal guns.. ^^

ehhh.. isn't that fair :P loled...



I tried to paste what you just wrote into babblefish for a translation, it spat it out and IP banned me from it's site.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.08 10:02:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Buyerr
loled your so ridicules i can't do anything but laugh at your comment :P hhehehehhehe

uhhh so i DON'T get to have a free weapon type that can change:
dmg type.
seize between any seized weapon.
gives as high dps as the main guns.
and can't be taken down.
and can change within 1 sec :P

and on top of that i of cause have the full support of my normal guns.. ^^

ehhh.. isn't that fair :P loled...


Every so ofthen I think you have learned something about the game, as your posts start to make sense, then you put up a post like this and see you are still the noob you have demonstrated to be.

Quote:
uhhh so i DON'T get to have a free weapon type that can change:
dmg type.
seize between any seized weapon.
gives as high dps as the main guns.
and can't be taken down.
and can change within 1 sec :P



To reply to your unelightened posts:

drones totally lack modules incresing damage, so they will never do the same damage of a "equivalent" sized weapon;

they don't scoop/deploy in 1 second even in the nightmares of the worst drone hater;

can easily be taken down;

need to fly to the target and when recalled need to fly to the ship, not doing any damage for most of the transit time, so they are even slower than missile on delivering damage.

Meepie
Posted - 2007.11.08 10:08:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Nian Banks
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Nian Banks
Originally by: Cybrex
well i have to kill my isk and have no change of keeping them alive. i also worrie about fighters :( . its not hard to kill 10 ogra 2's if u cant rep them. u can trie with a remote rep but that wont ***rk very good



Is it really that ineffective using shield transporters? Most drone boats have utility high slots so with the nos nerf, surely it would be a nasty surprise to the opponents if the drone they think would be an easy target just won't die.


How many drone ships (vexor, myrm, domi, ishtar, eos) do you fly on a regular basis? Let's start with that.


To be honest I only fly for amusement sometimes an Ishkur, but using 3x blasters and keeping close range I could happily repair a drone at a time. True its not anything kile scoop and deploy but atleast it can be done.


You do realise that light drones insta pop to Interceptors / Assault Frigates right?

There is no time to target and repair at all.


Cruisers webbing medium drones will kill them in 2 - 3 volleyes, again not enough time to repair, armour won't cycle in time as the drone hits structure and insta pops, shield won't give enough of a buffer because 1 volley from a set of standard medium weapons is more than shield hp.


Heavy drones webbed by a BC or a BS will pop very fast too, even beam lasers can track webbed heavies fine.

If you're using Heavies you're in a BS too which means by the time you identify what drone is being shot at by seeing it hit armour immediatly, you lock as you watch it go through armour and pop before you can finish targetting.



At this rate if you really want us to make it a viable tactic to repair our own drones then the person that owns the drones needs a bonus to locking his own drones, like 1/2 the time to lock a Drone or Fighter that you personally control.

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2007.11.08 10:35:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Silvion
However, drones in general are overpowered. They are near to impossible to lock due to the insane lock times. They are near to impossible to hit with anything other than a smartbomb.[/quotes]
Some dronebays were too large, it has been addressed with bandwidth.
There is no use to lock and shoot something smaller than a heavy drone in a BS, they won't kill you. If you are attacked by a droneship with med drones, it's a small one, just pop it. Think when you choose targets.

Originally by: Silvion
They (currently) instarepair shields when recalled to drone bay.

Instarepairing shield is being addressed too and it was not a good thing... Scooping 5 T2 caldari sentries down to armor is around 10k shield HP (or more with skills and ship bonus), it was totally mad.
The good way to make them work is more HP, higher resistances (drone durability giving resistance bonus for example instead of HP bonus), lower shield recharge time (but it's only true for caldari drones which have more shield).


Originally by: Silvion
They do all damage types. They never have to reload.

Wait, wasn't it a caldari ship in your signature, aren't you using the missile type you want for the right damage?
Reloading? Flying to target? Isn't that the same effect? It is some precious seconds where you don't attack! (and no, the flying to target is not like missiles, missiles have delayed damage, drones do nothing while flying to target, there are not other waves following them)


Originally by: Silvion
And you didn't see a nerf coming? I have been playing EVE now for a year and a half, and the first thing I noticed when I trained up T2 drones was how insanely good they are. My corpmates and I have had a bet running for most of that time as to when the nerf was coming.

Something had to be done, bandwidth and larger dronebays are exactly what we needed. But it makes it the most expensive weapon to use in the game (not considering any capital stuff).

Originally by: Silvion
Stop the whine here folks...a bug is being fixed. Adapt or quit.

Adapt? You mean train something else? Loose millions in every fight? Dock to reload your main weapon (if drones have no advantage over other weapons, I want to be able to reload my dronebay freely!)?

Sounds like you don't use too much drones...

Dr Slaughter
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2007.11.08 11:02:00 - [47]
 

Idea All drones should automatically continue to repair their shields when scooped at their normal repair rate.

IdeaIdea You should be able to lock your own ships drones almost instantly (they are after all in constant communications already with your ship and would be passing telemetry along with their status).

IdeaIdeaIdea Repairers, of all sorts, can be used on scooped drones (no targeting needed). This is probably a pain to code.

IdeaIdeaIdeaIdea Drones will still possibly need a small HP buff.

OneSock
Crown Industries
Posted - 2007.11.08 11:39:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Dr Slaughter
Idea All drones should automatically continue to repair their shields when scooped at their normal repair rate.

IdeaIdea You should be able to lock your own ships drones almost instantly (they are after all in constant communications already with your ship and would be passing telemetry along with their status).

IdeaIdeaIdea Repairers, of all sorts, can be used on scooped drones (no targeting needed). This is probably a pain to code.

IdeaIdeaIdeaIdea Drones will still possibly need a small HP buff.


What he said, plus all "drone boats" should get a remote rep range bonus.

Or,

All launchers and turret modules can take damage and go offline during combat.

It is simply not fair that a drone boats primary weapon can be so easily destroyed. And at a significant cost (1mill plus per T2 drone). Other races take no damage to weapons and no cost to repair them.

Balance that please.

Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
Posted - 2007.11.08 11:52:00 - [49]
 

Ok here are some ideas I would like to see happen.

1: AOE shield recharger, short range small 1.75km, medium 3.5km and large 6km. A good amount more cap use than shield transporters and slightly higher fitting requirements, no targeting necessary and it shield recharges everything including the enemy. Create a new t2 frigate with a bonus to them.

2: No need to lock your drones, allow selection and use of modules on them via the drone gui, drones are an extension of yourself.

3: 0 lock time for gang/fleet members, you are communicating to give gang bonuses already.

4: Create a "light carrier" T2 BS with a new "recon fighter" a frigate sized fighter. Can not warp away and is limmited In range the same as heavy drone + 20km recon drone range bonus from skill. Allow gang module use and have logistics cruiser and command ship prereqs.

5: give drones module slots & make them consume small ammunition (requires resupply, automatic), create a new line of micro modules for drones (and frigates) for use in the new slots.

6: drones should get the bonuses from gang modules & leadership skills.

That's some ideas I have been mulling over for a while.

ZigZag Joe
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2007.11.08 13:09:00 - [50]
 

while the drone shield nerf was a long time in coming (this coming from a drone user), I think for one drones should have a significant(1.5-2x) hp boost and possibly give t2 drones SOME t2 resists, so remote repping might actually be a feasible option. that, and aforementioned boni to locking own drones faster.

Jinmie
Posted - 2007.11.08 13:18:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Meepie

At this rate if you really want us to make it a viable tactic to repair our own drones then the person that owns the drones needs a bonus to locking his own drones, like 1/2 the time to lock a Drone or Fighter that you personally control.



This.

Laughing Mime
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
Posted - 2007.11.08 13:50:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: ZigZag Joe
while the drone shield nerf was a long time in coming (this coming from a drone user), I think for one drones should have a significant(1.5-2x) hp boost and possibly give t2 drones SOME t2 resists, so remote repping might actually be a feasible option. that, and aforementioned boni to locking own drones faster.


this too.

Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Dark Prophecy Inc.
Posted - 2007.11.08 14:03:00 - [53]
 

I dont know what is up with you, drones after shield recharge change will be fine.

You get a lot of extra damage for free (in terms of cap, fitting). And most fights in a gallente ship end at a range where you can give the enemy a finger in the face. So all this talk about traveling time is pretty obsolete, instant rescoop happens all the time.

Jinmie
Posted - 2007.11.08 14:54:00 - [54]
 

Ishtar is meant to fight at range, drone's feel pain when they die too.


What about Carriers and their Fighters? It's not like they MWD up to targets and can scoop / deploy... But Fighters are 15m of drone that dies as quick as a heavy.

Gaogan
Gallente
Solar Storm
Sev3rance
Posted - 2007.11.08 16:10:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Silvion

However, drones in general are overpowered. They are near to impossible to lock due to the insane lock times. They are near to impossible to hit with anything other than a smartbomb. They (currently) instarepair shields when recalled to drone bay. They do all damage types. They never have to reload.


You are an idiot. Overpowered? Overpowered? Do YOUR guns require travel time to reach the target? Can YOUR guns be destroyed in one volley? Can YOUR guns be left behind if you have to warp out? I think not.

Oh no, they do all damage types.... yea, you can choose which to bring with you, but it isn't like you can just reload different ammo in the fight to switch type like you can with missiles. As for ammo, that's really just a matter of convenience. You don't have to dedicate some of your cargo to ammo heading out. It isn't like it costs a lot of money or anything.

Originally by: Silvion

And you didn't see a nerf coming? I have been playing EVE now for a year and a half, and the first thing I noticed when I trained up T2 drones was how insanely good they are. My corpmates and I have had a bet running for most of that time as to when the nerf was coming.


Insanely good eh? Let's look at some numbers shall we. A dominix can field 5 ogre IIs for a total of 217 dps. A megathron with ion blaster cannon IIs and void can easily reach 450 dps, AND still field some smaller drones. I guess your definition of overpowered means "half as effective as something else".

Originally by: Silvion
It is here, and in my opinion, it's about time they fixed the instarepair issue. It makes no logical sense as to why a drone would instantly have all of its shields back when it gets scooped to the drone bay.

Stop the whine here folks...a bug is being fixed. Adapt or quit.


When was the last time you had to constantly offline and online your guns to keep them from being destroyed by your enemy? You know what else makes no sense? How a heavy gun that can't track a frigate has no problem instapwning a drone.

I have disabled eoses in my stealth bomber by one shotting its drones. It can't scoop them when they die in one volley.

Give drones enough hp so they can survive more than a single glancing blow and maybe I'll be able to deal with remote repping them.

Ulstan
Posted - 2007.11.08 16:48:00 - [56]
 

Quote:
with this change imo whe u dock / undock your shield shouldn't re-generate cause its literally the same exploit.



Undocking, docking, and then undocking again takes, what, a full minute?

Scooping your drones and spitting them back out takes mere seconds.

Look, everyone agrees that the 'instantly repair drones shields to 100%' was broken. Drones aren't supposed to be invincible, there is supposed to be a chance that they'll get shot down, that's one of the drawbacks to that weapon system. You shouldn't feel the game isn't working as intended if your drones die from time to time.

However, t2 drones *are* expensive (at least the popular ones) so you can't lose them at the same rate that you 'lose' missiles or projectile ammo.

Scooped drones should still have their shields recharge at the normal rate.

Moreover, drone boats should be able to repair drones directly from the drone interface. It's silly to demand that a drone boat have to laboriously manually lock it's drone from the overview before it can help the drone. Locking shouldn't be required.

Laughing Mime
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
Posted - 2007.11.08 16:58:00 - [57]
 

Maybe have a percent of the armor rep/shield boost cross over to drones in the bay, this way you cost the drone ship cap when you shoot its drones. Or possibly a new drone rep module which raises the hp of drones in the bay for cap.

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2007.11.08 17:31:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Laughing Mime
Maybe have a percent of the armor rep/shield boost cross over to drones in the bay, this way you cost the drone ship cap when you shoot its drones. Or possibly a new drone rep module which raises the hp of drones in the bay for cap.


Either way would be good.

The shield should maybe recharge faster in dronebay (the drone turns off engine and guns and redirects energy to shields. It would be a good start. What was bad was the instant recharge during a fight. They have to fully recharge shields between fights.

Then, comes the armor and structure... Should it be a module? If it is a module, will all drone ships equip one? If all drone ships equip one, shouldn't it be integrated and the repair rate proportional to the bandwidth? (then carriers can repair fighters fast inside bay, big/T2 dedicated droneships will repair quite fast, others slower)

Or a High slot (as for remote repairing, repairing drones was not gimping slots for armor or shield tanking before, it should not change) module that could be called 'drone bay repair system' or something that you activate and costs cap, repairs all drones in bay by same amount per circle... (which means it is more efficient on the bigger dronebay ships because they carry more drones and all gets repaired at same time, may have sizes too and a capital one)

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.08 18:07:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Ulstan
Quote:
with this change imo whe u dock / undock your shield shouldn't re-generate cause its literally the same exploit.



Undocking, docking, and then undocking again takes, what, a full minute?

Scooping your drones and spitting them back out takes mere seconds.

Look, everyone agrees that the 'instantly repair drones shields to 100%' was broken. Drones aren't supposed to be invincible, there is supposed to be a chance that they'll get shot down, that's one of the drawbacks to that weapon system. You shouldn't feel the game isn't working as intended if your drones die from time to time.



This is an argument that work (maybe) for PvP, but drones are the primary weapon of the best PvE gallente ships (Myrmidion, Ishtar, Dominix). But in PvE you send the drones at serious distances, 40 km is the "short range". so it is not possible to "instantly" sccop and redeploy them.

In reality even in PvP it is not istant as the drones orbit the target and are normally not in scooping range. You need to recall them and that require: a) that they complete the current attack cycle and accept the recall command; b) that they navigate up to your ship.

The scooping/deploying game was broken, granted, but it was not overpowering at least in PvE, as you had to waith for the return of the drones, losing a good percentage of your firepower for an extended time and still risking to lose the drones while they reurned in your bay.

Generally I am in favor of this change, but it is necessaty to know the healt status of the drones when in the drone bay and maybe to allow the movement of drones from the cargo hold to the drone bay while in space (make it some kind of "extended" action requiring several minutes) or the ships with limited drone bay will deplete them very fast and we will see a new serie of whines on the tune of: "The ship capable of deploing more than 1 wing of drones are overpowered, I will lose my wing in 1 minute while they can deploy several and kill me with the drones".

Ma'kal
The Imperial Commonwealth
E.Y
Posted - 2007.11.08 18:29:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Alski
To be fair, the idea is that we'll all have bigger dronebays so insted of scoop/repair/relaunch we'll just let them die and launch more.

I worrey though that this is going break fighters, they are too weak allready, not being able to repair them is going to make them even more vulnerable.


Aren't there remote shield, armor and hull repers in game?!? They work on drones too.


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