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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2007.11.05 22:54:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 05/11/2007 22:57:21
Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 05/11/2007 22:56:47
Hello,

For some time now the Nidhoggur and Thanatos have been a bit lack luster. I fly them both on seperate accounts and have pretty much mastered them training wise. I've been using carriers since shortly after their release.

While I feel the Nidhoggur is in far dire of situation they both share similar fates of the unspectacular tanking. The Chimera has 8 effective midslots with a 7 slot effective tank. The Archon also shares this trait because it has 8 effective lowslots.

The Nidhoggur in all realistic setups has a eratic tank profile. Even though it has 6 mids only 5 of those are realistic for tanking since a sensor booster is pretty much a requirement. Similarly to the shield tanking, the lowslots give it an armor tank of 5 lows. Now this has been addressed with SISI updates giving the Niddy a 6th low for a 5th mid. This makes th Niddy very similar to the Thanatos. Both having a 6 lowslot tank after the changes and 5 mids.

I do say however that this is really suboptimal. I ask CCP to please consider changing the Niddy back to a 6/5 and give it a shield boost bonus and giving it 100 more CPU. This will allow it to have a 6 midslot tank ( 5 physical + bonus with Sensor booster ) but also the ability to use 4 PDSs + damage control to give it a different performance profile than the Chimera.

Furthermore, I ask that the Thanatos be given a Armor Repair amount bonus in place of the Fighter Damage bonus as well as an increase to 130k armor base.

This way the Nidhoggur and Thanatos can compete with their brotheren but maintain some racial distinctiveness for tanking while using their ship stats/slots to improve capacitor performance over the Chimera and Archon.

This might further increase demand for training Triage modes as well since all the races would have a tank bonus to empower them to be centerpieces of smaller gangs. Right now, even though they are capitals they just don't add up wholistically to their counter parts even if they have situational niche bonuses. I feel to even consider using remote repping you either have to have a ship that can exploit the maximum amount of capacitor for both remote and personal repping or be in a large circle jerk. There must be balance.

Elmicker
Wreckless Abandon
Posted - 2007.11.05 23:05:00 - [2]
 

/signed.

Jinmie
Posted - 2007.11.05 23:06:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Jinmie on 05/11/2007 23:07:39
The fact that the disparity in just basic T2 tanks between the Nid / Thana vs Chimera / Archon is a whopping 1k dps supports this argument.


Fighters don't do much damage and according to CCPs logic they don't want Carriers to be much of a damage dealer, the Thanatos 20% average bonus that most pilots have is woefully underpowered compared to a 33% increased in tanking that the resist bonus carriers have.


If a T2 Thanatos could have a 4k Tank with 2 reps, 3 Hardeners II and a Damage control or EANM II it would be great, +20 dps to 10 Fighters isn't very special, it's still Gank Blasterthron damage all added up anyway.


I would use Triage if this was the case, as it stands a Thanatos in Triage is a lower dps capital tank with all its crappy bonus wasted.

Thrawnfl
Posted - 2007.11.05 23:26:00 - [4]
 

There isnt anything wrong with the Thanatos, its just fine the way it is. I'd rather have the fighter bonus than anything else.

Samurai XII
Posted - 2007.11.05 23:35:00 - [5]
 

If anything Thanatos and Nid are better carriers.

What matters in a carrier: Being able to rep others with armor and shield.

It's true that the Chimera and Archon have better tanks, BUT, a Chimera cap regen sucks so much it will just die as soon its out of cap. And the archon is more or less in the same boat. Oh and you can't even fit the Chimera properly thanks to the amount of CPU need from capital shield modules. :(

bldyannoyed
Estrale Frontiers
Posted - 2007.11.05 23:55:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Samurai XII
If anything Thanatos and Nid are better carriers.

What matters in a carrier: Being able to rep others with armor and shield.

It's true that the Chimera and Archon have better tanks, BUT, a Chimera cap regen sucks so much it will just die as soon its out of cap. And the archon is more or less in the same boat. Oh and you can't even fit the Chimera properly thanks to the amount of CPU need from capital shield modules. :(


And just how do you figure that the Archon has a worse cap problem than than the Thanatos? The Thanny has has effectivley TWO less low slots compared to an archon to tank with, and a fighter bonus that doesnt apply once it has delegated its fighters.

Realistically, the Archon and Thanny are both gonna fit dual rep tanks, and the Archon is gonna have bette resists and potentially better cap as a CPR gives a greater recharge boost than Cap Charger.


Random Womble
Minmatar
Emo Rangers
Electric Monkey Overlords
Posted - 2007.11.06 00:15:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Samurai XII
If anything Thanatos and Nid are better carriers.

What matters in a carrier: Being able to rep others with armor and shield.

It's true that the Chimera and Archon have better tanks, BUT, a Chimera cap regen sucks so much it will just die as soon its out of cap. And the archon is more or less in the same boat. Oh and you can't even fit the Chimera properly thanks to the amount of CPU need from capital shield modules. :(


Firstly the nids bonus does not work out as better than a res bonus since if you have those extra res the benifit both from local and remote repping while the remote repping bonus only boost one plus you wont have an all nid gang which means the nids suffer even more. Best carrier is the archon then the chimera.

As for the CPU on the chimera as stated again and again you have more CPU now than the HEL the minmatar mothership yet the HEL has the same number of mid slots 1 more low AND 1 more high. The nid again is meant to be a shield tanker or was how it will be after the patch i dont know and it has 125 less cpu than the chimera thats 1 less midslot (on TQ) and yet about 2-3 midslots worth of CPU comparitatively you really have nothing to moan about with regards to CPU.

The Shield boost ammount bonus and rep ammount bonus that the op is im assuming suggesting would be intresting but would have little effect in a spider tank personally im happy with the nids bonus just about however I am of his veiwpoint that the minnie carrier should be restored to it previous slot layout and given a sizable boost to CPU (100 as suggested would be about right since thats 25 less than the chimera and thats about the diffrence in cpu needs between a shield mod and a PDU II). Some increase in tanking would be nice because the slot layout now favours the carriers with resistance bonuses (if they had either the bonuses or slot layouts switched it would be very balanced but not going to happen).

so in conclusion /signed with regards to nid 100 cpu 5/6/5 slot layout

Takita Yukida
Quo Vadis Domine
Posted - 2007.11.06 00:17:00 - [8]
 

the funny thing is: the nid got the +1 lowslot, the hel didn't Shocked

Jinmie
Posted - 2007.11.06 00:19:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Samurai XII
If anything Thanatos and Nid are better carriers.

What matters in a carrier: Being able to rep others with armor and shield.

It's true that the Chimera and Archon have better tanks, BUT, a Chimera cap regen sucks so much it will just die as soon its out of cap. And the archon is more or less in the same boat. Oh and you can't even fit the Chimera properly thanks to the amount of CPU need from capital shield modules. :(



Chimera can have a 4k+ tank and loads more cap regen than it needs if you know how to fit and don't just use PDUs.

Random Womble
Minmatar
Emo Rangers
Electric Monkey Overlords
Posted - 2007.11.06 00:31:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Random Womble on 06/11/2007 00:31:48
Originally by: Takita Yukida
the funny thing is: the nid got the +1 lowslot, the hel didn't Shocked


Hel is meant to be shield tanked as is the nid really, all the motherships gain one tanking slot over there carrier counterparts, wyvern gets 8 mids aeon 8 lows nyx 7 lows and the hel 7 mids except now thanks to ccps change the hel tanks shield and the nid will tank armor forcing you to train a new set of tanking skills if you want to upgrade from carrier to MS if minmatar hmm clearly that makes sense.

Hel still seriously needs a CPU boost too as mentioned above it has less than a chimera either that or a switch to 7 lows 5 mids and im not sure the hel pilots on TQ would be too happy with that.

Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente
United Mining And Distribution
Posted - 2007.11.06 00:34:00 - [11]
 

I'd take another remote logistics bonus over the fighter bonus or resistance any day on my thanatos. If I'm taking heavy fire, my fleet's dead and I'm toast anyway.

As far as the carrier role itself is concerned, the chimera and archon are actually the weaker carriers. Both the thanatos and nidhoggur can do shields and armor from max range, and the nidhoggur gets a further boost to those. The chimera and archon can only do one each, and their massive tank is irrelevant in the typical fight.

-Vmir

Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.11.06 02:13:00 - [12]
 

/signed under the "Thanatos DPS bonus isn't so important to me" column.

LUH 3471
Posted - 2007.11.06 02:22:00 - [13]
 

/signed

Samurai XII
Posted - 2007.11.06 03:33:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Samurai XII on 06/11/2007 03:33:31
Ok sure the Chimera has a 'uber' tank, but again not much use if you have no cap. Also the Chimera HAS to sacrifice its tank for a sensor booster or cap regen... Low slot cap regen also sacrifices the tank since they take away shield boost %.

If anything the nid and thanatos have it easy, while the Archon has it the easiest.

Boost Thanatos and Nid? SURE! But boost the Chimera and Archon also. If anything all carriers should get 5% cap regen per carrier level added.

The way it goes now:
Thanatos = added dps, shield/armor support.
Archon = added armor resistance, armor/energy support.
Nid = added support, shield/armor support.
Chimera = added shield resistance, shield/energy support.

Depending what you want to do, you choose one of those. Right now the best support carrier is the nid, then the thanatos. Best tank is Chimera for amount of dps it can tank, and Archon for its nice cap regen and tank.

Only problem i see is the Chimera/Wyvern have problems fitting since their CST and CSB require SO MUCH CPU. Oh and the hel needs a extra low slot.

voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.06 04:59:00 - [15]
 

/signed... but their might be better ways to balance / improve the carriers

Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
Posted - 2007.11.06 05:55:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Samurai XII
Edited by: Samurai XII on 06/11/2007 03:33:31
Ok sure the Chimera has a 'uber' tank, but again not much use if you have no cap. Also the Chimera HAS to sacrifice its tank for a sensor booster or cap regen... Low slot cap regen also sacrifices the tank since they take away shield boost %.


4 cap relays and a second shield boost amp is the same as 5 cap rechargers in cap regen boost also using 5 slots total and the penalty of the cap relays is completely countered by the extra shield boost amp. So what's the problem? You're using just as many slots as anyone else to achieve the same cap recharge as everyone else? (Also you can opt for the relatively cheap faction cap relays and get better recharge then someone using 5 faction cap rechargers.)

Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
Posted - 2007.11.06 06:06:00 - [17]
 

Definately signed to keep nidhoggur as is with the 6 mids and 5 lows.
All it needs is to get more cpu (so it actually has more cpu then a thanatos for a change). About 100 extra cpu sounds about right.

Besides that it could be nice if they bumped up the remote rep/shield transporter bonus on the nid to at least 6.5% (preferably 7.5%) and maybe even have it apply on capital shield booster as well. Perhaps a similar bonus for the Thanatos instead of its current fighter bonus(which isn't all that usefull in most situations currently anyway) could be interesting.

Finnally I do think the capital modules need to be balanced as well. The capital shield booster and shield boost amp, the hp/s and cap/s equivalent of 2 capital armor repairers, takes up half of the cpu available to the average carrier while 2 capital armor repairers use up 40% of the available grid. If the capital shield booster would be changed to take 230 cpu and 125000 grid it would take 40% cpu(combined with sba) and 20% grid, the inverse of 2 capital armor reps.

Triage module in the current incarnation isn't very good. The faster targeting and EW immunity would be the only reasons why I would use it, the cap requirements are too excessive to be forced to stay in place for 10 minutes.

Afturmath
APOCALYPSE LEGION
Posted - 2007.11.06 06:16:00 - [18]
 

Regarding the Nidhoggur vs Hel shield/armor tanking debacle:
Training both types of tank is a standard Minmatar practice. If you look at the other ship classes, the distinction is clear-
Cyclone is shield, Hurricane is armor
Typhoon is armor, Tempest is either, Maelstrom is shield
It makes sense that the Nidhoggur and Hel would be the same way. Remember that Minmatar is pretty much the hard mode in terms of skill training required to fly all the ship types. I mean of course the armor+shield+guns+missiles idea, and am not implying in any way that Minmatar is the worst or best race. I do not believe there is a best at everything race, nor do I wish to derail the topic by suggesting that or sparking a debate.

On Thantaos and Nidhoggur changes:
I agree that the Thanatos needs a boost overall with the fighter nerf crippling their bonus. As for the Nidhoggur, it serves its purpose of remote repping far better than the other carriers, and the distinct advantage in this role outweighs the loss of having a substantial tank. Triage modules make the tank so significantly better, anyway, that it's almost a moot point for the Nidhoggur to be a Chimera-Lite™. Anyone on a carrier path should understand that the Nidhoggur is a support ship and realize the tanking won't be as effective as the Chimera or Archon.

I understand that, in their current state, a vast majority of Nidhoggur pilots are fulfilling a major offensive combat role, and I realize that most pilots who trained for it long ago had no idea the usefulness of their carrier's combat effectiveness (read: Solopwnmobilism™) would be diminished so heavily. Most pilots use carriers as if they were giant Dominixes, and that's what CCP is trying to change. I'm not arguing that the changes are just or even that they're currently balanced well. The point is that, as with the other ship types, each race's ships have certain roles to fill, and the carriers should show a large distinction between theirs. Having a Chimera, Chimera-Lite™, Archon, and Archon-Lite™ will just cause everyone to retrain for Caldari or Amarr and all upcoming capital pilots to overlook the Nidhoggur and Thanatos completely.

The Nidhoggur and Hel will always be logistics ships over any other role, just as the Chimera, Wyvern, Archon, and Aeon will be capital tanks. The Thanatos and Nyx are in between right now, as their primary role was nerfed pretty hard. It's just going to be a matter of time (as with any major change) before someone at CCP takes a coffee break and clues in that something went horribly wrong.

Either way, /signed for fixing the two gimps.

Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
Posted - 2007.11.06 08:48:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 06/11/2007 08:52:42
Originally by: Afturmath
Regarding the Nidhoggur vs Hel shield/armor tanking debacle:
Training both types of tank is a standard Minmatar practice. If you look at the other ship classes, the distinction is clear-
Cyclone is shield, Hurricane is armor
Typhoon is armor, Tempest is either, Maelstrom is shield
It makes sense that the Nidhoggur and Hel would be the same way. Remember that Minmatar is pretty much the hard mode in terms of skill training required to fly all the ship types. I mean of course the armor+shield+guns+missiles idea, and am not implying in any way that Minmatar is the worst or best race. I do not believe there is a best at everything race, nor do I wish to derail the topic by suggesting that or sparking a debate.

I don't see a reason to change to nid to capital armor tank when there already is another minmatar capital ship that has armor tank, fullfilling the "standard minmatar practice". I'm of course referring to the Naglfar.
Originally by: Afturmath

On Thantaos and Nidhoggur changes:
I agree that the Thanatos needs a boost overall with the fighter nerf crippling their bonus. As for the Nidhoggur, it serves its purpose of remote repping far better than the other carriers, and the distinct advantage in this role outweighs the loss of having a substantial tank. Triage modules make the tank so significantly better, anyway, that it's almost a moot point for the Nidhoggur to be a Chimera-Lite™. Anyone on a carrier path should understand that the Nidhoggur is a support ship and realize the tanking won't be as effective as the Chimera or Archon.

I understand that, in their current state, a vast majority of Nidhoggur pilots are fulfilling a major offensive combat role, and I realize that most pilots who trained for it long ago had no idea the usefulness of their carrier's combat effectiveness (read: Solopwnmobilism™) would be diminished so heavily. Most pilots use carriers as if they were giant Dominixes, and that's what CCP is trying to change. I'm not arguing that the changes are just or even that they're currently balanced well. The point is that, as with the other ship types, each race's ships have certain roles to fill, and the carriers should show a large distinction between theirs. Having a Chimera, Chimera-Lite™, Archon, and Archon-Lite™ will just cause everyone to retrain for Caldari or Amarr and all upcoming capital pilots to overlook the Nidhoggur and Thanatos completely.

You do know the fighter control change was reverted? They are not changing the carriers at this time. (ps. except for this odd nidhoggur change that doesn't even address the actual nidhoggur issueConfused)
Originally by: Afturmath

The Nidhoggur and Hel will always be logistics ships over any other role, just as the Chimera, Wyvern, Archon, and Aeon will be capital tanks. The Thanatos and Nyx are in between right now, as their primary role was nerfed pretty hard. It's just going to be a matter of time (as with any major change) before someone at CCP takes a coffee break and clues in that something went horribly wrong.
Either way, /signed for fixing the two gimps.
Problem with the logistics strength of the Nidhoggur and Hel is that a pack of Chimeras/Wyverns or Archons/Aeons is better logistics wise because the resist bonus effectively boosts any tanking they do among eachother, by more then the current logistics bonus of the nid/hel at the moment.

Abbel Nightroad
Under the Wings of Fury
Atrocitas
Posted - 2007.11.06 08:56:00 - [20]
 

I think the Thanatos is ok, i mean it doesn't have CPU issues like other carriers do, however if i had to swap the skills i had trained, i would go for an Archon, because the fighter damage bonus is much less used than a tanking bonus, and the upcoming fighter nerf isn't going to help that.
I'd trade the fighter damage bonus for a repairer bonus anytime, but it's not like it's really needed for now, maybe after after the nerfbat strikes Laughing

Amy Wang
Posted - 2007.11.06 11:34:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Reatu Krentor
Problem with the logistics strength of the Nidhoggur and Hel is that a pack of Chimeras/Wyverns or Archons/Aeons is better logistics wise because the resist bonus effectively boosts any tanking they do among eachother, by more then the current logistics bonus of the nid/hel at the moment.


And that is why the boost/repair amount bonus on the Nid should be 7,5% per level instead of 5%.
Actually every other ship with a boost/repair amount bonus has 7,5% per level to balance it against the 5% resist bonus other ships of that class get, why not with carriers? The fact that it is a remote bonus and not a direct tanking one shouldnt be reason to not increase it to 7,5%, it should be reason to consider even 10%/lvl.

Naviset
Posted - 2007.11.06 11:38:00 - [22]
 

I can't believe this topic even exists tbh.

The best part about carriers is remote repping and theres not THAT many situations where you're gonna have 10 carriers all remote repping another carrier and that one dearly hanging on for life...

Has anyone tried fitting a Chimera? Even AFTER the cpu boost GL getting multiple remotes on it (Which works with the than/nid)

I say give the nid an extra low and one less mid and call it good.

And give the Chim some more CPU.

Linas IV
Posted - 2007.11.06 12:18:00 - [23]
 

For me, they schould keep the slot-layout on the nidhogggur as it is on TQ (6/5)
and boost the cpu by a fair ammount (the 100 everyone considers seem ok)

The rest of its stats/bonus seem pretty balanced to me.

Random Womble
Minmatar
Emo Rangers
Electric Monkey Overlords
Posted - 2007.11.06 13:17:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Naviset
I can't believe this topic even exists tbh.

The best part about carriers is remote repping and theres not THAT many situations where you're gonna have 10 carriers all remote repping another carrier and that one dearly hanging on for life...

Has anyone tried fitting a Chimera? Even AFTER the cpu boost GL getting multiple remotes on it (Which works with the than/nid)

I say give the nid an extra low and one less mid and call it good.

And give the Chim some more CPU.


3 things for you to do
1 get a fitting program and try and fit a shield tank + everthing else on a nid
2 get a fitting prog and try and fit a shield tank + everthing else on a hel
3 stfu about the cpu issues of the chimera now that you can clearly see they dont even come close to those of the nid/hel

Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
Posted - 2007.11.06 13:32:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Amy Wang
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
...

And that is why the boost/repair amount bonus on the Nid should be 7,5% per level instead of 5%.
Actually every other ship with a boost/repair amount bonus has 7,5% per level to balance it against the 5% resist bonus other ships of that class get, why not with carriers? The fact that it is a remote bonus and not a direct tanking one shouldnt be reason to not increase it to 7,5%, it should be reason to consider even 10%/lvl.

My guess as to why it's not 7.5% as one would expect is for balance reasons, a capital remote repper/shield booster is pretty strong when you're boosting a non-capital ship even before it gets increased. However I also think 5% is too low and would rather like to see 6.5% at a minimum(would still be slightly weaker then a resist bonus' effect but far closer then current)
Originally by: Naviset
I can't believe this topic even exists tbh.

The best part about carriers is remote repping and theres not THAT many situations where you're gonna have 10 carriers all remote repping another carrier and that one dearly hanging on for life...

Has anyone tried fitting a Chimera? Even AFTER the cpu boost GL getting multiple remotes on it (Which works with the than/nid)

I say give the nid an extra low and one less mid and call it good.

And give the Chim some more CPU.

So others wanting a ship boosted is not allowed but the chimera has to be boosted? yeah, ok Rolling Eyes.
Nidhoggur doesn't need a slot layout change to get balanced, it needs cpu increased to be ABOVE that of a Thanatos and closer to Chimera.
If the Chimera is still low on CPU after a boost perhaps that would be a good indication there is something unbalanced about cpu usage of capital mods, just maybe?
As I have said a couple times last few days, capital shield tank takes too much cpu.

That said, I just did a quick EFT fitting and I don't get a problem fitting 1 capital shield transporter(and 1 capital energy transfer with 3 dcu) with a capital shield tank on the Chimera, GL getting even 1 capital shield transporter to fit on a shield tanking nid(or anything else in the highs but the shield transporter)...



Amy Wang
Posted - 2007.11.06 14:16:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Amy Wang on 06/11/2007 14:16:03
A CPU increase wont do much, shield tanking the Nid is still not viable unless you plan on using triage all the time as after fitting the mandatory 2 sensor boosters (without them a single celestis/arazu/lachesis can knock your out of the fight and before you argue that one is enough now, try it yourself against a decent skilled damp ship) you only have 4 med slots left, hardly enough for a working shield tank. Maybe the damp nerf will change the requirement to 1 sensor booster but thats far from certain.

For that reason I am quite happy with the Nid getting steered more to armor tanking with the 6 lows and I hope they keep that, the only way to make shield tanking the Nid viable would be to give it 7 meds AND some sort of tanking bonus and a CPU boost obviously, any shield tank below the Chimeras abilities is not worthwhile imho.

Random Womble
Minmatar
Emo Rangers
Electric Monkey Overlords
Posted - 2007.11.06 14:42:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Amy Wang
Edited by: Amy Wang on 06/11/2007 14:16:03
A CPU increase wont do much, shield tanking the Nid is still not viable unless you plan on using triage all the time as after fitting the mandatory 2 sensor boosters (without them a single celestis/arazu/lachesis can knock your out of the fight and before you argue that one is enough now, try it yourself against a decent skilled damp ship) you only have 4 med slots left, hardly enough for a working shield tank. Maybe the damp nerf will change the requirement to 1 sensor booster but thats far from certain.

For that reason I am quite happy with the Nid getting steered more to armor tanking with the 6 lows and I hope they keep that, the only way to make shield tanking the Nid viable would be to give it 7 meds AND some sort of tanking bonus and a CPU boost obviously, any shield tank below the Chimeras abilities is not worthwhile imho.


After the patch a signal boost amp will be almost as good as a sensorbooster, i admit it wont have the options scrips will give you but on a basic level.

Afturmath
APOCALYPSE LEGION
Posted - 2007.11.06 14:49:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Reatu Krentor

I don't see a reason to change to nid to capital armor tank when there already is another minmatar capital ship that has armor tank, fullfilling the "standard minmatar practice". I'm of course referring to the Naglfar.

I did think about the Naglfar, but the training difference between it and carriers sort of separates the distinct training paths, whereas the bs/bc/carrier type-variants are all separate tank types.
Originally by: Reatu Krentor

You do know the fighter control change was reverted? They are not changing the carriers at this time. (ps. except for this odd nidhoggur change that doesn't even address the actual nidhoggur issueConfused)

Yeah, but they will be changing it eventually. If not this patch, the nerf is still a lingering threat.
Originally by: Reatu Krentor

Problem with the logistics strength of the Nidhoggur and Hel is that a pack of Chimeras/Wyverns or Archons/Aeons is better logistics wise because the resist bonus effectively boosts any tanking they do among eachother, by more then the current logistics bonus of the nid/hel at the moment.

Yes, but they are also trying to boost the usefulness of carriers in providing repping to support as well. The triage module is a distinct tactical advantage when supporting that 100+ BS fleet, and the Nidhoggur/Hel will always have a nice advantage for that role. There's always the option to use triage Nidhoggurs/Hels to rep the Archon/Aeon/Chimera/Wyvern fleet as well, providing a further advantage over the exclusive Caldari/Amarr fleet.

Random Womble
Minmatar
Emo Rangers
Electric Monkey Overlords
Posted - 2007.11.06 15:02:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Afturmath
Originally by: Reatu Krentor

I don't see a reason to change to nid to capital armor tank when there already is another minmatar capital ship that has armor tank, fullfilling the "standard minmatar practice". I'm of course referring to the Naglfar.

I did think about the Naglfar, but the training difference between it and carriers sort of separates the distinct training paths, whereas the bs/bc/carrier type-variants are all separate tank types.
Originally by: Reatu Krentor

You do know the fighter control change was reverted? They are not changing the carriers at this time. (ps. except for this odd nidhoggur change that doesn't even address the actual nidhoggur issueConfused)

Yeah, but they will be changing it eventually. If not this patch, the nerf is still a lingering threat.
Originally by: Reatu Krentor

Problem with the logistics strength of the Nidhoggur and Hel is that a pack of Chimeras/Wyverns or Archons/Aeons is better logistics wise because the resist bonus effectively boosts any tanking they do among eachother, by more then the current logistics bonus of the nid/hel at the moment.

Yes, but they are also trying to boost the usefulness of carriers in providing repping to support as well. The triage module is a distinct tactical advantage when supporting that 100+ BS fleet, and the Nidhoggur/Hel will always have a nice advantage for that role. There's always the option to use triage Nidhoggurs/Hels to rep the Archon/Aeon/Chimera/Wyvern fleet as well, providing a further advantage over the exclusive Caldari/Amarr fleet.


No one uses triage though because it sucks your much better off with spider repping between a group of carriers/MS ok so it quadruple the ammount of damage your own tank can rep however it also doubles the cap usage which means you cant leave your tank perma running if you do get attacked more likely you will be able to run it 50% of the time only doubling your tank, it also doubles the huge cap consumption of remote reps if you do even get to use them and 1 remote rep uses alot of cap as it is effectively 2 remote reps worth of cap is not sustainable either.

As for the BC and BSs tanks each does a diffrent job while the MS and carriers do the same jobs if you want to look at it in that sort of way we can go frig -> cruiser -> BS where the rifter is pretty much a smaller ruppy and ruppy smaller tempest all those 3 ships can do both arm and shield tanks best at armor tanking though all 3 are gun boats (you dont HAVE to train missiles for them).

Pociomundo
Gallentean Gynaecologists
Posted - 2007.11.09 15:30:00 - [30]
 

I'd love a boost to Capital Self Repair amount for the Thanatos, much better than +25dps on each Fighter at maxed skills >.<

+7.5% Repair amount per Carrier level would give us a lvl 4 tank of 4k dps (2 Rep, 3 Hardeners, 1 EANM), which is around the same as the average Chimera / Archon T2 tank, perhaps a bit less and not as good, as high resist > high repair, but still, a lot more useful for a capital ship than 25dps per Fighter which on average works out at just +250dps total, 1250dps from an all lvl 5 Thanatos pilot isn't much different to 1000 the rest put out with 10 Fighters, they are both still Battleship dps numbers.


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