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Katana Seiko
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.05 01:00:00 - [1]
 

Okay, I know you did it to cripple the carriers, but you crippled the gallenteans as well. We gallente are more or less depending on drones for combat, and what good are drone boni if you can't use them?

Let's start with the Ishkur: The standard configuration is 25m drone space. With the skill bonus you can get up to 50m drone bay. Up to now you could use five medium combat drones with that ship, but they need more bandwidth than available.
Next the Myrmidon. The ship is able to use five heavy drones, but the bandwidth you give to her doesn't fit. 75 mbit is just half of the needed bandwidth.
Last is the Ishtar. It has a bonus of 50 m drone space per level, but with the bandwidth you can't even start to use that bonus!

Well, it was intended to cripple the carriers, but was it intended to cripple the gallenteans too?

Lothros Andastar
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.05 01:07:00 - [2]
 

Ok firstly, the bandwidth numbers are still in testing.

Second, the myrm wont be able to use heavy drones anymore, buhu i'll live with it

Thirdly, the Ishtar has been confirmed to be able to use 5 heavies by devs either via a bandwith skill bonus or through the cruser level.

Fourthly, the correct english term is bonuses, not boni. Even in latin it isnt boni, its Bonii or Bona

And finaly, yes I am a main who is Gallente and Drone Specced (GASP HORROR!)

MyOwnSling
Gallente
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.11.05 02:18:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Katana Seiko
Let's start with the Ishkur: The standard configuration is 25m drone space. With the skill bonus you can get up to 50m drone bay. Up to now you could use five medium combat drones with that ship, but they need more bandwidth than available.
Ishukur was never able to field 5 mediums, the bandwidth limit comes simultaneously with an increase to base bay size, the 50m3 you list here is after the changes, not what is currently available.

Stakhanov
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2007.11.05 03:51:00 - [4]
 

Drone bandwidth / carrier change is utterly insignificant compared to the butchering of sensor damps. If the changes make it to TQ , I'll still use my ishkurs , I'd even buy a myrm or train for thanatos - but my EW ships would remain docked in station forever.

That's the gallente nerf.

Incantare
Posted - 2007.11.05 05:09:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Stakhanov


That's the gallente nerf.


It hits the Gallente recons hard, but it wrecks damp setups on all other races' ships. Damp curse, damp rapier/huggin, damp raven/caracal/drake etc. are all getting hit.

salakhar
Gallente
North Face Force
Posted - 2007.11.05 05:47:00 - [6]
 

it also hits cycle jamming. this would b a use for caldari recons. damp and cycle jam. now this is getting much harder. relatively experienced players would do it and it is one of the possible uses of a rook/falcon; hence one less reason to use em in pvp...

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.11.05 09:34:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 05/11/2007 09:35:41
I'm torn by these changes. On the other hand, I feel some were needed... the Myrmi and Eos nerfs, the damp nerfs, etc. Everyone was using damps, it was getting a bit silly.

On the other hand, the Eos triple-nerf was hugely overdone, and leaves the ship relatively useless compared to the other fleet commands. The damp (and TD and...) nerfs do also seem a bit problematic right now, looks like even the dedicated Gallente and Amarr EW boats will be hard pressed to use the new damps and TDs effectively.

Maybe Arazu/Lachesis/Pilgrim/Curse would need a slightly increased damp/TD bonus, to make up for the huge reduction in power? Especially seeing that the Caldari EW boats (and ECM in general) just got boosted, and it wasn't exactly weak to begin with (on dedicated ECM boats, that is).

I don't mind damps being made weaker in non-specialized boats, but imho they should still stay very powerful in specialized EW boats, otherwise there is little reason to fly these. Confused

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.11.05 09:46:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Alex Harumichi


On the other hand, the Eos triple-nerf was hugely overdone, and leaves the ship relatively useless compared to the other fleet commands.



Still has a damage bonus where the other fleet commands do not (they all have 5 turret hardpoints). Can still launch 5 med drones, were the other fleet commands are limited to lights (ok, so the claymore can do 4 med drones), and have room for spares. (which the other fleet commands do not)

Can still out tank a vulture whilst running 3 gang links (yes, actaully, it does. Those stupid passive tank numbers you get, don't actually work when you're needing cap to do your thing).

Katana Seiko
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.05 10:52:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Lothros Andastar
Ok firstly, the bandwidth numbers are still in testing.

Second, the myrm wont be able to use heavy drones anymore, buhu i'll live with it

Thirdly, the Ishtar has been confirmed to be able to use 5 heavies by devs either via a bandwith skill bonus or through the cruser level.

Fourthly, the correct english term is bonuses, not boni. Even in latin it isnt boni, its Bonii or Bona

And finaly, yes I am a main who is Gallente and Drone Specced (GASP HORROR!)


Fifthly, I do typos as well from time to time, I'm only human.. But "bonuses" is one of the most cruel word someone could come up with. It's not even close to correct, since bonus isn't english.. And oh, yes - english isn't my first language.

And please, don't "americanize" any more words. It's just a proof of inferiority to know a word in an other language and not using it in the correct way..

And finally, I have a website you should visit: >Wikipedia Link< Very Happy

Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.11.05 11:43:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: James Lyrus
[Eos c]an still out tank a vulture whilst running 3 gang links (yes, actaully, it does. Those stupid passive tank numbers you get, don't actually work when you're needing cap to do your thing).


From EFT, an active tank Vulture (all three shield ganglinks, 4*HML2/HAM2, MWD2, LSB2, LSE2, Invu2, EM hardener 2, DCU2, 2*PDS2, co-proc2) tanks 749 DPS while cap charges last. I got the new 4/6 Eos with two armor gang links to 734 DPS tanked, although it wasn't quite cap stable even with the booster.

Said Vulture had 112k effective HP compared to Eos's 72k. HML Vulture gets 214 DPS to max drone range, rail Eos about 1.5 that to 20km. Blaster Eos a bit over double DPS to 4km.

Talsha Talamar
Amarr
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
Posted - 2007.11.05 12:37:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 05/11/2007 13:10:46
Originally by: Lothros Andastar
Fourthly, the correct english term is bonuses, not boni. Even in latin it isnt boni, its Bonii or Bona


Latin does not seem to be your first language either,
a small grammar lesson free of charge:

positiv - singular - male
bonus
boni
bono
bonum
bono

positiv - plural - male
CoolboniCool
bonorum
bonis
bonos
bonis

Originally by: Lothros Andastar
(GASP HORROR!)


Oh and on a sitenote,
both of you are wrong,
since bonus is not the right latin term in this context.

Its stem is either used as an adjective
expressing that something`s quality is good,
or as the noun for the Good itself.

Bonus thus can have many meanings,
good quality, of good temper, fine, patriotic aso..

Summum Bonum for example is a term
describing the "Collective Good" and
an expression for "The State" used in Rome,
just to give an exemplum bonum.

Actually I became aware of the fact,
that the latin term does not cover "bonuses",
just when I consulted my dictionary to doublecheck my post.

Nevertheless boni would be its right declination for the 1st person plural male.

Bonii by the way is no word at all,
but an horrible abomination.
YARRRR!!

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.11.05 13:10:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: James Lyrus
[Eos c]an still out tank a vulture whilst running 3 gang links (yes, actaully, it does. Those stupid passive tank numbers you get, don't actually work when you're needing cap to do your thing).


From EFT, an active tank Vulture (all three shield ganglinks, 4*HML2/HAM2, MWD2, LSB2, LSE2, Invu2, EM hardener 2, DCU2, 2*PDS2, co-proc2) tanks 749 DPS while cap charges last. I got the new 4/6 Eos with two armor gang links to 734 DPS tanked, although it wasn't quite cap stable even with the booster.

Said Vulture had 112k effective HP compared to Eos's 72k. HML Vulture gets 214 DPS to max drone range, rail Eos about 1.5 that to 20km. Blaster Eos a bit over double DPS to 4km.


Odd. I'm fairly sure that:
Heavy missile IIs clock in at 25dps/launcher with max skills (before T2/faction ammo).
250mm railgun IIs 27 at antimatter range, 18 at lead range, and 18 at spike range.
Heavy neutron IIs are 42 at antimatter, 28 at lead, and 39 at null

A hobgoblin II (most damaging drone) is 20dps, and a hammerhead is 32.

Are you perhaps putting damage mods on that fit? Going for full gank on both? Well, ok. Doesn't actually matter much I think, since they both have 5 weapons, and both can fit 3, or even 4 damage mods. (Although, Vulture _does_ have less lows at that point)

Now, counting fingers. Well, cheating maybe and using EFT, a 250mm railgun, attached to an EOS, with spike loaded and max skills _looks_ like it's doing 23dps, with a 65km optimal. Before damage mods, of course. Now, that's actually not all that far off the 25/launcher a heavy II does. Although, I suppose said heavy II does also get faction ammo, where there's no faction spike, for 29dps.

But then, we've got a bay of mediums, vs. a bay of lights to add to the comparison.

*shrug*. I keep looking at the Eos, and seeing a ship that isn't as awesome as it was, but compares a lot better with the other fleet command ships now.


Paltuf
Posted - 2007.11.05 13:12:00 - [13]
 

gallente are not getting close to getting nerfed!!!!

I am Gallente / drone speced and i love the changes that are coming up.. we can "lone" are drones to any other gang member which is ace.

The changes with the bandwidth are a long time in coming.. as for the mryo that ship is overpowered and i DO fly it.. why do i say that because it has the same damage and tank as the ishtar and its cheaper. 600dps+ for 50mill anyone?

The Ishtar can only fly 3 mids and 2 lights with max skills and yet again on max skills that ship out damages the enyo by around 60dps which for a frig its alot...

No why am i looking foward to the patch because we are getting a drone bays back that we used to have.. we can now have move waves of drones in the drone bays Laughing

and the Ishtar will be the smallest ship you can field 5 heavys in

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.11.05 13:29:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: James Lyrus

*shrug*. I keep looking at the Eos, and seeing a ship that isn't as awesome as it was, but compares a lot better with the other fleet command ships now.




Well, I fly both Eos and Damnation, and can't really find a reason to fly an Eos over Damnation for gang/fleet support.

The Damnation has (much) better tank, especially since if can fit huge amounts of passive armor (which Eos cannot due to fitting reasons) which is most useful in the fleet situation. Damnation has good weapon range, even with HAMs. It gets a bonus to arguably one of the best gang link types. It generally has zero-to-no fitting problems (Eos runs out of grid pretty fast).

Compared to the other 3 fleet commands, the Eos still has the worst tank and the worst gang link types. It really doesn't have anything going for it, anymore. Even the DPS isn't that hot in practice, since it's very close-range and you're doing zero gun DPS while you're MWD:in over and burning cap by the bucketloads.

It's a bit sad. It's not a completely useless ship (it's better than nothing). It's just easily the worst fleet command, now.

If the infowar gang links were more general-use and as worth fitting into your average gang as the other three types, the problems wouldn't be so bad. But infowar gang links are very specialized and cornercase.

When was the last time you saw someone fly an Eos with infowar gang links? When was the last time you saw a gang linked Damnation/Claymore/Vulture? Right.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.11.05 13:34:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 05/11/2007 13:34:51
To the OP: I don't think the Gallente are being "crippled" by any means, I think many (most?) of the changes were warranted and are quite ok.

But:

- as noted, the triple-nerf on the Eos was overdone, and leaves it close to useless. Some small gang support -related buff to the ship is warranted. As an additional insult-to-injury, why on earth nerf the drone bay size, now that we have the drone bandwidth? Wasn't that supposed to enable larger drone bays, not the opposite?

- the nerf on the Ishkur was a bit weird. I don't recall anyone complaining about AFs being underpowered, quite the opposite in fact. Confused

- the sensor damp and tracking disruptor nerfs have the potential of making those EW types close to useless, even on ships specialized for them. It *might* be that the Arazu/Lachesis/Pilgrim/Curse need a small boost to their racial EW bonuses, especially given that ECM was just recently given a big boost (and it never was weak in the first place, on specialized ships). The jury is still out on this one.

Etil DeLaFuente
Posted - 2007.11.05 13:54:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Paltuf


The Ishtar can only fly 3 mids and 2 lights with max skills and yet again on max skills that ship out damages the enyo by around 60dps which for a frig its alot...



I think you're talking about the ishkur not the ishtar Wink

Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.11.05 13:55:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: James Lyrus

*shrug*. I keep looking at the Eos, and seeing a ship that isn't as awesome as it was, but compares a lot better with the other fleet command ships now.



Eos with 2*MAR2, med electrochem cap booster and three gang links has a bit under 700 grid left. You could just barely fit three 250mm IIs with that, you have to go T2 200s. With full 6-slot tank, I get 49km optimal for spike, 296 DPS (of which 86.5 comes from the guns, not a whole lot of point to fit damage mods). That's actually cap stable due to no MWD.

Enh. Actually if you go for the 200mms, you will have 0.85 grid left for three empty medslots. Downgrade one to dual 150. ugh

Don't even dream of neutron blasters, they require that MWD.

If Vulture really wanted, it could fit two T2 damage mods instead of the T2 PDUs, giving it 267 DPS and way better mobility than the MWDless rail Eos. Tanks just 695 DPS, though, so Eos will be better after... 14 minutes of continuous tanking. If it gets cap from someone else, that is.

Hyakuchan
Earth Federation Space Force
Posted - 2007.11.05 14:03:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Alex Harumichi

Well, I fly both Eos and Damnation, and can't really find a reason to fly an Eos over Damnation for gang/fleet support.


Considering how much grief Amarr usually gets I think it's only fair that they get at least something that people actively want to fly.

Anyway, no, the Gallente are not going to become the new Amarr, because the Gallente blaster ships aren't being touched. People who charge in head first with a Thorax or Hyperion and start mauling stuff senseless at close range aren't in for any surprises. That will still work regardless of what happens to drones, and it will still work quite well, and people will still complain about Gallente being overpowered.


Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.11.05 14:10:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Hyakuchan
Originally by: Alex Harumichi

Well, I fly both Eos and Damnation, and can't really find a reason to fly an Eos over Damnation for gang/fleet support.


Considering how much grief Amarr usually gets I think it's only fair that they get at least something that people actively want to fly.



Sure, I don't disagree... it's great that the Damnation is as good as it is, and it's great that the Amarr (for once) have a best-in-class ship.

I'm just saying that the Eos triple-nerf went too far, and dropped it way below all the others. That's not balance, either; we should try to get to a situation where all ships have at least something going for them. The new Eos is outclassed in all the respects that matter in the intended role (fleet/gang support).

Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.11.05 14:21:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Hyakuchan

Anyway, no, the Gallente are not going to become the new Amarr, because the Gallente blaster ships aren't being touched. People who charge in head first with a Thorax or Hyperion and start mauling stuff senseless at close range aren't in for any surprises.


... except when they try to do that against a torp Raven after the patch. ugh

CptEav1s
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.05 14:52:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Lothros Andastar
Thirdly, the Ishtar has been confirmed to be able to use 5 heavies by devs either via a bandwith skill bonus or through the cruser level.
Quote:


Yea well thats all I wanted to know, I mean seriously it does suck that CCP has decided to nerf some ships especially when they aren't Caldari, cause face it they have everything Rolling Eyes

But my simple point of view is as long as they don't cripple the Ishtar and Domi, or ships that are specifically meant for drones, than its fine.

Face it yes the Myrmidon was 2nd to Drake in new BC's but still it was a beast, drone damage and tanking bonus, even if it can only launch t2 med drones that is still pretty damn impressive. Just be glad they aren't changing the damage to scan probe launcher duration or some crap Wink

As well ships like the Ishkur and Eos are meant to use a combination of drones and guns, not drones and NOS as some believed. Just face the facts like everyone else has to:

Gallente have some ships that are simply gun boats, others that are only drone boats, and some that are a combination, all drone bandwidth is doing is rounding out the cross-breed.

Cheers
- CptEav1s

oh P.S I want to know when CCP will stop worrying about drones lagging ppl out and start owrrying about missile spam, nerf Caldari for once cause face it 100 extra shield recharge on all BC's doesn't count as a nerf. Seems like EVE is built to be Caldari with 3 other races for some added spice Shocked

Maestro Ulv
Phaze-9
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.11.05 14:59:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Katana Seiko
Okay, I know you did it to cripple the carriers, but you crippled the gallenteans as well. We gallente are more or less depending on drones for combat


Erm, no. My mains have always been Gal and drones have always been a secondary weapon. Why people always think we need to go drones as primary is beyond me.

We get fantastic dmg bonus on some of our ship that works with blasters and rails. The Hype is a seminal mission boat with some skills behind it. The ishkur is a fantastic ratter with T2 blasters whilst its small drones take out the pesky frigs in spawns.

We have a decent enough turn of speed, great repping bonus and probably the most balanced ships in the universe. Sure, we do have to skill higher than say a blind Caldari launching missile after missile but Ill take that alpha strike over them anyday of the week.

An AF should fit lights. A BC should fit meds. I personaly never use heavies, too slow, too targetable. Train some skills.

As for Carriers, don't care. Can fly them, have flown them, prefer smaller, faster ships with small gangs.

Andreya
Red Federation
Posted - 2007.11.05 16:39:00 - [23]
 

ishkur still does more damage than ANY other frigate!
myrm, Does way more damage than any orther battlescruiser now it does they same as the other racial BCs, welcome to the rest of eve. just be glad they didnt touch the brutix (whom i think it is still amazing)

Zathi Shaitan
Illiteracy Combatants
Posted - 2007.11.05 17:48:00 - [24]
 

When you see a Gallente complaining, you become aware that this thread needs more cheese for the nonsense whining.


Hyakuchan
Earth Federation Space Force
Posted - 2007.11.05 21:54:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Hyakuchan on 05/11/2007 21:58:19
Originally by: Talsha Talamar
Bonii by the way is no word at all,
but an horrible abomination.


All of which is irrelevant anyway. Bonuses is the proper spelling according to the OED, which is the final word in the proper usage of english in anglophonic cultures. People who disagree are French and deserve to die*.

*Because if there's one thing that english-speaking people can agree on, it's that the French suck. Except those who salute the maple leaf. They're just annoying.

Jinmie
Posted - 2007.11.05 23:02:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Lothros Andastar
I owned myself in the face when I tried to be clever with Latin and belittle someone on the EVE Internet Forums.


 

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