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Arc Anna
Caldari
Pacific Starfleet Command
Posted - 2007.11.04 03:24:00 - [1]
 

I had this big argument with a corpmate who's 2005, he said flying a Raven, using Kinetic missiles gives a damage bonus over other cruise/torp types due to the 10% bonus to velocity of them.

THEREFORE, the 50% bonus to missile speed translates to higher damage, since the definition of kinetic = kinetic energy which will apply to EVE and Kinetic missiles.

Please tell me I wasn't smoking grass...

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.11.04 03:25:00 - [2]
 

There was some horse crap in that grass... you have about 24 hours to live

Siege
Minmatar
Siegecraft Bounty Hunting
Posted - 2007.11.04 03:26:00 - [3]
 

easy way to test it. Drop a giant secure can, hit it with 4 different type torps. I bet you won't see any difference.

The physics of reality are not the physics of eve. Just remember, in REAL space there are no maxiumum velocites.

Cygnus Zhada
Viziam
Posted - 2007.11.04 03:29:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 04/11/2007 03:32:46
just check info on the raven;

Quote:
Special Ability: 5% bonus to Cruise and Siege Launcher Rate Of Fire and 10% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo Velocity per level.


Nowhere is any kinetic bonus mentioned, i guess that kinda solves that one.

- edit for clarification -

Ask him what he's smoking because you'd sure want to try it as well, kinetic in this game is a damage type, no more, no less.

Lisento Slaven
The Drekla Consortium
Posted - 2007.11.04 03:32:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
just check info on the raven;

Quote:
Special Ability: 5% bonus to Cruise and Siege Launcher Rate Of Fire and 10% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo Velocity per level.


Nowhere is any kinetic bonus mentioned, i guess that kinda solves that one.


His friend was arguing that the velocity bonus really is a kinetic damage bonus. You'd have to explain to him that it isn't...in which case he'd just say that if it goes faster it would do more kinetic damage. After you say he's dumb and he says you're dumb you get into a fist fight until someone actually shows him screenshots or tells him to just shoot a structure with 0 resists with all damage types...

Cygnus Zhada
Viziam
Posted - 2007.11.04 03:34:00 - [6]
 

Yeah, i wasn't expecting people to actually think THAT far... but as I edited in my post, he's wrong :P

Arc Anna
Caldari
Pacific Starfleet Command
Posted - 2007.11.04 03:39:00 - [7]
 

The worse thing was, yes we got into a **** fight and he got the senior corpmates to side with him. Seems like the senior staff in the corp all think the same way... that real physics translates to EVE mechanics.

Dear God... one even cited a physics PhD chap who explained it in forums. LOL sure, but I guess the PhD chap never said it translated to EVE mechanics!

Even my CEO agreed with him. My gawd... I joined a corp of ...

F'nog
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2007.11.04 03:44:00 - [8]
 

Yes, if we were going by Newtonian physics, it would be true. But we're not. We're going by Eve physics. So he's wrong. No matter how many PhDs he cites.

Kinda sad, really, bringing that much real-world work to a game.

Acoco Osiris
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.04 04:21:00 - [9]
 

I've thought on the whole kinetic missile deal (obviously you can't take it too seriously, as EVE is in many respects unrealistic), and I figured that in order to compete with nuclear weapons, at the relatively low speed kinetic missiles (especially torps) move, they'd have to weigh tremendous amounts.

Oh, and explosive damage from nuclear weapons is unrealistic. Explosions only happen due to atmosphere, in vacuum it would translate to a massive burst of radiation, thus EM damage.

Jurgen Cartis
Caldari
Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
Posted - 2007.11.04 04:29:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Jurgen Cartis on 04/11/2007 04:29:43
For a second there between reading the title and the OP you had me thinking they'd nerfed the Raven hard. . .

Dubious Drewski
Posted - 2007.11.04 04:49:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Siege
The physics of reality are not the physics of eve. Just remember, in REAL space there are no maxiumum velocites.
I used to say that too, until I realized that each ship would indeed have a maximum velocity: it would be equal to the velocity of the exhaust from the engines.

Though, to be fair, that would still be a helluva lot faster than 300m/s.

And to the OP, Tell your friend that Eve's physic engine is not that detailed.Rolling Eyes

F'nog
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2007.11.04 05:26:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Acoco Osiris
I've thought on the whole kinetic missile deal (obviously you can't take it too seriously, as EVE is in many respects unrealistic), and I figured that in order to compete with nuclear weapons, at the relatively low speed kinetic missiles (especially torps) move, they'd have to weigh tremendous amounts.

Oh, and explosive damage from nuclear weapons is unrealistic. Explosions only happen due to atmosphere, in vacuum it would translate to a massive burst of radiation, thus EM damage.


Well, as devil's advocate, you could factor in shrapnel. In the real world (yes, it's wrong), there are certain systems, into which I won't go into detail because of the political perspective, which deal most of their damage from shrapnel, i.e. nails.

So one could imagine that there are ultra-hard items included in these warheads that are flung at nasty velocities, plus heat from the explosion, i.e. EM, that when combined deal the damage. Thinking about this too hard leads to the dark side, so it's best not to delve too deep. But it can lend itself to certain aspects of the game.

Dubious Drewski
Posted - 2007.11.04 05:37:00 - [13]
 

Yeah, if you really wanted to be anal-retentive about it, you could argue that it's impossible to have a missile that could deal only one damage type. Ie: EM missiles need an explosion to create that em blast, plus the missile will always create kinetic damage due to the fact that it's colliding at great speeds....annnnd that kinetic energy will always create heat, etc, etc...

Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2007.11.04 05:51:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Arc Anna

Even my CEO agreed with him. My gawd... I joined a corp of ...


Newbies. You joined a corp of newbies who know very little about eve mechanics. I'd quit now.

Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Umbra Synergy
Posted - 2007.11.04 05:54:00 - [15]
 

they MUST have been pullnig your leg

I mean seriously...

if not, my bat is for hire Twisted Evil

Erik Pathfinder
Caldari
M. Corp
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2007.11.04 06:03:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Erik Pathfinder on 04/11/2007 06:04:30
The majority of kinetic warheads in the game do NOT cause their damage by impact and transferance of kinetic energy, they do it by a fictional effect that CCP has dubbed Graviton waves. The only kinetic missiles in the game that state they do their damage through simple impact is the Thorn rocket and Juggernaut torpedo, though personally I'm more inclined to believe this to be a consistency error, as the majority of kinetic missiles state they are fitted with a graviton warhead.

There's even a graviton emitter and graviton reactor in the game, required for t2 kinetic warheads and as t2 ship power cores respectively.

PS: Don't apply real-world physics unless EVE states that it actually uses them. You're talking about a game where collisions don't do damage...



Astorothe
Aperture Science Industries
Posted - 2007.11.04 06:14:00 - [17]
 

Quote:
Raven gives Kinetic Dmg bonus...


No it doesn't.

Haffrage
Regeneration
Posted - 2007.11.04 06:19:00 - [18]
 

This would make sense if missiles struck their targets and detonated, but something like a torpedo afaik MISSES the target and detonates a short distance away to increase the total surface area that the explosion strikes.

Since we're going by real life and all.

Baleur
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.11.04 06:22:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Siege
easy way to test it. Drop a giant secure can, hit it with 4 different type torps. I bet you won't see any difference.

The physics of reality are not the physics of eve. Just remember, in REAL space there are no maxiumum velocites.

Uh, yes there is, the speed of light. Altough you can get around it by warping space in front of and behind you, you still wont ever have anything going faster than light.
If it is, its because it warps space, but in reality its not moving especially fast, its just moving space itself :)

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.11.04 06:36:00 - [20]
 

Possibilities...
* You've been had. They're pulling a practical joke on you.
* They're bored. Arguing crap just for the heck of it.
* They have no clue how EVE's gameplay actually works and you need to give them a spanking.

Jacob Castillo
Caldari
Eternal Perseverance
Posted - 2007.11.04 06:37:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Possibilities...
* You've been had. They're pulling a practical joke on you.
* They're bored. Arguing crap just for the heck of it.
* They have no clue how EVE's gameplay actually works and you need to give them a spanking.


The correct answer is C. It's always C. Always... ugh

Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2007.11.04 06:52:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Arc Anna
Please tell me I wasn't smoking grass...


Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

VLAD DRACU
Posted - 2007.11.04 20:22:00 - [23]
 


actually yes, if you add up the kinetic force of the missile itself (ie the tube) to the kinetic force of the blast, you get a bonus

as this is new science in eve, there's no math work done or being done imo, you can be the first to find this graal of kinetic secret. therefore fit a ship with faction stuff, come to jita 4-4, torp me on sight and you'll notice the hidden extra bonus in your log

but that extra damage will be given only for targets that you hanvent met before in eve and been in your sight for no more than 10 seconds. why me? because this forum post is an assurance that i will return the loot.

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2007.11.04 20:27:00 - [24]
 

Hello Arc Anna, try this method of testing the bonus on the Raven. Your friend and you both fly Ravens. You both fit the same mods, weapons and equipment. Ask him to fit Kinetic ammo and you fit EM ammo.

Shoot each other and see who pops first. :)

Ed Anger
Weekly World News
Derek Knows Us
Posted - 2007.11.04 20:29:00 - [25]
 

you dont want to fit kinetic ammo, as it slows down in the space air. fact.

Thuvia Carter
Posted - 2007.11.04 21:24:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Dubious Drewski
Originally by: Siege
The physics of reality are not the physics of eve. Just remember, in REAL space there are no maxiumum velocites.
I used to say that too, until I realized that each ship would indeed have a maximum velocity: it would be equal to the velocity of the exhaust from the engines.



Please, PLEASE, tell me you are kidding here. If not this is such a complete misunderstanding of physics that I don't know where to begin.

In vacuum the only speed limiting factor is the speed of light. As long as the ship's engine is providing thrust the ship will continue to accelerate. If you change the amount of thrust all that will happen is the ship will continue to accelerate at a faster or slower rate dependant upon whether you increased or decreased the thrust of the engine. In either case the ship is still gaining speed, albeit at a different rate.

An Anarchyyt
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.11.04 21:36:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Thuvia Carter
Originally by: Dubious Drewski
Originally by: Siege
The physics of reality are not the physics of eve. Just remember, in REAL space there are no maxiumum velocites.
I used to say that too, until I realized that each ship would indeed have a maximum velocity: it would be equal to the velocity of the exhaust from the engines.



Please, PLEASE, tell me you are kidding here. If not this is such a complete misunderstanding of physics that I don't know where to begin.

In vacuum the only speed limiting factor is the speed of light. As long as the ship's engine is providing thrust the ship will continue to accelerate. If you change the amount of thrust all that will happen is the ship will continue to accelerate at a faster or slower rate dependant upon whether you increased or decreased the thrust of the engine. In either case the ship is still gaining speed, albeit at a different rate.


Now tell me why light can't go any faster than 3 x 10^8 m/sec

Kweel Nakashyn
shadow and cloaking
Yggdrasill.
Posted - 2007.11.04 21:42:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Siege
Just remember, in REAL space there are no maxiumum velocites.

That is untrue : no atoms or molecule can reach the speed of light => limited speed.

Kweel Nakashyn
shadow and cloaking
Yggdrasill.
Posted - 2007.11.04 21:43:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 04/11/2007 21:42:40
Originally by: Jacob Castillo
The correct answer is C. It's always C. Always... ugh

zomg I concur. c :)

Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Umbra Synergy
Posted - 2007.11.04 21:46:00 - [30]
 

k first off, cut the pseudo-intellect crap quoting outdated physics "laws"

they stated it takes infinite energy to accelerate to infinite velocity, and then defined C (the speed of light) as infinite velocity

clearly C is not infinite as it can be quantified
it's a stupid ubran myth that has been perpetuated by brain dead high school science teachers



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