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Hardigeen
Posted - 2007.11.01 03:22:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Hardigeen on 02/11/2007 08:52:17
Edited by: Hardigeen on 02/11/2007 08:51:24
I have a question for all tech 2 producers. What do you think about the price of Dysprosium? I did some market testing and it turned out all orders in Jita ( 500K in quantity) are controled by 1 single character in NPC corporation. How will the market manipulation and price gouging affect the tech 2 markets?

Admiral Nova
Strike Team Nova
Posted - 2007.11.01 03:59:00 - [2]
 

You know it's impossible to buy any order but the lowest right ? No matter which order you choose and how much you pay, the guy with the lowest order makes the sale ? So without buying out all the lower orders it's impossible to see who has the highest order.

Hardigeen
Posted - 2007.11.01 04:07:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Admiral Nova
You know it's impossible to buy any order but the lowest right ? No matter which order you choose and how much you pay, the guy with the lowest order makes the sale ? So without buying out all the lower orders it's impossible to see who has the highest order.


Not really. You can buy from a specific order. One character owns all orders. I bought 1 unit of Dysprosium from each one of the 4-5 orders and same character was listed in my wallet as seller for each one of them at a different price.

GC13
Caldari
Species 5618
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2007.11.01 04:15:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Hardigeen
Originally by: Admiral Nova
You know it's impossible to buy any order but the lowest right ? No matter which order you choose and how much you pay, the guy with the lowest order makes the sale ? So without buying out all the lower orders it's impossible to see who has the highest order.


Not really. You can buy from a specific order. One character owns all orders. I bought 1 unit of Dysprosium from each one of the 4-5 orders and same character was listed in my wallet as seller for each one of them at a different price.
It's true. It automatically purchases it from the person with the lowest price at that station, and gives them the amount of the one you wanted to pay for. Until I figured this out, I was continually baffled about why I would every so often get amounts like 23,277 (or anything else > 20,000) for the modules I had up at 20,000. One person does not control all of the orders, you're just giving more money than you have to to the person with the cheapest order.

Admiral Nova
Strike Team Nova
Posted - 2007.11.01 04:31:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Admiral Nova on 01/11/2007 04:32:39
Originally by: Hardigeen
Originally by: Admiral Nova
You know it's impossible to buy any order but the lowest right ? No matter which order you choose and how much you pay, the guy with the lowest order makes the sale ? So without buying out all the lower orders it's impossible to see who has the highest order.


Not really. You can buy from a specific order. One character owns all orders. I bought 1 unit of Dysprosium from each one of the 4-5 orders and same character was listed in my wallet as seller for each one of them at a different price.


No you cannot. You can pay however much you like. The person with the lowest order makes the sale. And they get as much isk as you said you were willing to give them. You CANNOT buy from any order but the lowest, no matter how much you pay. The order you click on is how much you pay, the person with the lowest order always gets the isk though.

Infact try this from any item at the same station, unless someone puts a new order up or changes their price while you're doing it, you will find that 'shock' only one person is selling 'every' item.

Try it with ammo/trit or something. Watch as the lowest order loses a unit no matter which order you click on ;) This is why people undercut each other by .01 isk. If you are the lowest you make the sale. It doesn't matter which one people click on.

Hardigeen
Posted - 2007.11.01 04:32:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: GC13
Originally by: Hardigeen
Originally by: Admiral Nova
You know it's impossible to buy any order but the lowest right ? No matter which order you choose and how much you pay, the guy with the lowest order makes the sale ? So without buying out all the lower orders it's impossible to see who has the highest order.


Not really. You can buy from a specific order. One character owns all orders. I bought 1 unit of Dysprosium from each one of the 4-5 orders and same character was listed in my wallet as seller for each one of them at a different price.
It's true. It automatically purchases it from the person with the lowest price at that station, and gives them the amount of the one you wanted to pay for. Until I figured this out, I was continually baffled about why I would every so often get amounts like 23,277 (or anything else > 20,000) for the modules I had up at 20,000. One person does not control all of the orders, you're just giving more money than you have to to the person with the cheapest order.


Okey. Its stupid, but if thats how it works then thats fine. Reason for my post is that I was doing some calculations and its obvious that the price of Dysprosium is thru the roof. For example, to produce 10K of Ferrofluid (current market price 134 mil ISK) you need 5K Dysprosium ( 115 mil ISK) and 5K Hafnium ( 9 mil ISK). You also need 25 hours of POS reaction time (25+25 for two simple reactions with large POS tower) and that will cost 10 mil ISK. So if I'm not wrong, reacting Ferrofluid is a waste of time at the current Dysprosium price?

Admiral Nova
Strike Team Nova
Posted - 2007.11.01 04:35:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Admiral Nova on 01/11/2007 04:36:34
Oh, there can be all sorts of market gouging, high prices all sorts of things, just that you can't say for certain it's all one person without buying it all.

Dysprosium is fairly rare so it'll be one of the first things to rise in price due to demand. (Most of the more common materials have plenty of untapped supply left)

It also means one person can raise the price fairly easily by buying it up. Also check the prices of the final product as well as the intermediate. Sometimes there's a glut / low supply of one bit in the chain that DOES make producing the next one up the line unprofitable.

Hardigeen
Posted - 2007.11.01 04:45:00 - [8]
 

I've been doing this for a while, but it seams that at the point when certain moon minerals reach such a high prices, its is not worth reacting, you'd be better off buying simple or advanced component. I'm affarid that with the next patch and all new tech 2 ships, prices of moon minerals like Dysprosium will be so high that it will not even be worth it reacting unless the prices of tech 2 components go up or CCP does something to increase amount of available moon minerals in game.

Hexxx
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.11.01 17:52:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Hardigeen
I've been doing this for a while, but it seams that at the point when certain moon minerals reach such a high prices, its is not worth reacting, you'd be better off buying simple or advanced component. I'm affarid that with the next patch and all new tech 2 ships, prices of moon minerals like Dysprosium will be so high that it will not even be worth it reacting unless the prices of tech 2 components go up or CCP does something to increase amount of available moon minerals in game.


So start selling T2 components at a higher price. If the base minerals are increasing in price, this price SHOULD be passed along the supply chain. You may not see it immiediately, but it MUST happen eventually.

The Market is responding to the classical price indicators:

1) Supply (moon minerals have a limited and fixed supply)
2) Demand (demand is rising significantly because of the new T2 ships)

Because supply stays the same, and demand rises, than prices will increase. What your seeing right now (price increases not reflected consistently across the supply chain) is a result of pure market speculation.


Hardigeen
Posted - 2007.11.01 22:16:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Hardigeen on 01/11/2007 22:17:02
Edited by: Hardigeen on 01/11/2007 22:16:39
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Hardigeen
I've been doing this for a while, but it seams that at the point when certain moon minerals reach such a high prices, its is not worth reacting, you'd be better off buying simple or advanced component. I'm affarid that with the next patch and all new tech 2 ships, prices of moon minerals like Dysprosium will be so high that it will not even be worth it reacting unless the prices of tech 2 components go up or CCP does something to increase amount of available moon minerals in game.


So start selling T2 components at a higher price. If the base minerals are increasing in price, this price SHOULD be passed along the supply chain. You may not see it immiediately, but it MUST happen eventually.

The Market is responding to the classical price indicators:

1) Supply (moon minerals have a limited and fixed supply)
2) Demand (demand is rising significantly because of the new T2 ships)

Because supply stays the same, and demand rises, than prices will increase. What your seeing right now (price increases not reflected consistently across the supply chain) is a result of pure market speculation.




You cant sell tech 2 components at higher price and still be competitive. With gouged price of Dysprosium, some people are selling and losing ISK, Dysporite and Ferrofluid for example at the moment.


Falka Lakadaka
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.02 02:22:00 - [11]
 

If you can't compete, then it's time to find a new market.

I know this sounds harsh, but it's reality. Step back, allow the prices to stabilise and get back in when you can compete. There's always something else you can manufacture or trade in the meantime.

The only other option would be to mine your own Dyprosium or find another source. If I was mining it, I wouldn't be bothered with the tech 2 production though.....I'd be undercutting (ever so slightly) the market.


Benvie
Benvie Enterprises
Posted - 2007.11.02 03:25:00 - [12]
 

Buy up all the underpriced ferrofluid and start manipulating THAT market. Making money is about adapting to the market. The same opportunities won't exist forever.

Hardigeen
Posted - 2007.11.02 03:34:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Benvie
Buy up all the underpriced ferrofluid and start manipulating THAT market. Making money is about adapting to the market. The same opportunities won't exist forever.


Not everyone is interested in manipulation and speculation. Some people just want prices to be stable so they can build.

Falka Lakadaka
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.02 04:03:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Hardigeen
Originally by: Benvie
Buy up all the underpriced ferrofluid and start manipulating THAT market. Making money is about adapting to the market. The same opportunities won't exist forever.


Not everyone is interested in manipulation and speculation. Some people just want prices to be stable so they can build.


Good Luck!!

Benvie
Benvie Enterprises
Posted - 2007.11.02 04:13:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Benvie on 02/11/2007 04:13:40
Originally by: Hardigeen
Originally by: Benvie
Buy up all the underpriced ferrofluid and start manipulating THAT market. Making money is about adapting to the market. The same opportunities won't exist forever.


Not everyone is interested in manipulation and speculation. Some people just want prices to be stable so they can build.


This is a player run economy. This isn't The Legend of Zelda where prices are always the same. Have some fun with it instead of getting your panties in a bunch.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.11.02 04:34:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 02/11/2007 04:37:14
Originally by: Hardigeen
Not everyone is interested in manipulation and speculation.
Some people just want prices to be stable so they can build.

ShockedughLaughingTwisted Evil
Say it with me : "player run market". Now repeat that 100 times.
In case you didn't know, the market has PvP too.
And just like all PvP in EVE, it's not very consensual either.

Adapt or die. In this case, either adjust prices (best alternative), stop manufacturing (least effort), or take the loss and keep going (the "altruist" i.e. "stupid" alternative).

Hardigeen
Posted - 2007.11.02 05:25:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 02/11/2007 04:37:14
Originally by: Hardigeen
Not everyone is interested in manipulation and speculation.
Some people just want prices to be stable so they can build.

ShockedughLaughingTwisted Evil
Say it with me : "player run market". Now repeat that 100 times.
In case you didn't know, the market has PvP too.
And just like all PvP in EVE, it's not very consensual either.

Adapt or die. In this case, either adjust prices (best alternative), stop manufacturing (least effort), or take the loss and keep going (the "altruist" i.e. "stupid" alternative).


Who cares what you think moron...

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.11.02 05:50:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Hardigeen
Who cares what you think moron...

Everybody WITH a clue ?
And apparently, you too, enough to reply anyway.
You're just too ashamed to admit even to yourself I'm right.

Hardigeen
Posted - 2007.11.02 06:09:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Hardigeen
Who cares what you think moron...

Everybody WITH a clue ?
And apparently, you too, enough to reply anyway.
You're just too ashamed to admit even to yourself I'm right.


Yes you win. You are the winner.
Is that why you post in every damn thread on the forums?
If thats it, then you just won and you can stop posting.
Get a life, because trust me, there is some life beyond EVE forums.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.11.02 06:27:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 02/11/2007 06:34:31

Yes, that's why. I have absolutely zero life outside of EVE. I do nothing but post on the forums. Sheesh.
Now that we established that beyond a shadow of a doubt, you can rest assured I won't stop posting, and I would suggest YOU do that instead if you can't handle it.
Forum has PvP too. And I'm kicking your ass at it.

Now get on with the ISSUE at hand instead of the person bringing it forth.
You are complaining something is not profitable, and you go make several (how many is that already six or seven?) threads about this great "injustice" of somebody gouging prices on some relatively rare (in your opinion) "item".
You know, absolutely NORMAL, and I even dare say SMART move on this guy's behalf, whoever he or she is.

"How will this afect the T2 market" ?
Well, no idea, Sherlock, I would say prices will RISE, what do you think ?
"Discuss"
It has been discussed, it has been told to you countless times, you don't listen.
You insist on making a profit without knowing what you do, and you expect the game to compensate for your mathematical/economic inadequacies, it seems.

What the hell do you hope to acheive ?
To make people stop buying dysprozium from this "reseller" ?
To make more people moon-mine dysprozium ?
To make people sell dysprosium at a loss to you or other T2 manufacturers ?

Now, really, what the bleep is your frackin' problem, and what the bloody hell do you expect to accomplish ?
Do you expect people to feel pitty for your situation ?
It's a cutthroat game, you don't like it, either make a loss, quit that area, or stop playing altogether.

Hardigeen
Posted - 2007.11.02 06:32:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Yes, that's why. I have absolutely zero life outside of EVE. I do nothing but post on the forums. Sheesh.

Now get on with the ISSUE at hand instead of the person bringing it forth.
You are complaining somthing is not profitable, and you go make several (how many is that already six or seven?) threads about this great "injustice" of somebody gouging prices on some relatively rare (in your opinion) "item".
You know, absolutely NORMAL, and I even dare say SMART move on this guy's behalf, whoever he or she is.

What the hell do you hope to acheive ?
To make people stop buying dysprozium from this "reseller" ?
To make more people moon-mine dysprozium ?
To make people sell dysprosium at a loss to you or other T2 manufacturers ?
Now, really, what the bleep is your frackin' problem, and what the bloody hell do you expect to accomplish ?


You should calm down first. Then you should do some work and stop posting on EVE forumus because you dont want to lose your job.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.11.02 06:35:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Hardigeen
You should calm down first. Then you should do some work and stop posting on EVE forumus because you dont want to lose your job.

Unless I fire myself, I am in no danger of losing my job, since I run my own company in real-life.
NEXT ad-hominem argument ?

Hardigeen
Posted - 2007.11.02 06:39:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Hardigeen
You should calm down first. Then you should do some work and stop posting on EVE forumus because you dont want to lose your job.

Unless I fire myself, I am in no danger of losing my job, since I run my own company in real-life.
NEXT ad-hominem argument ?


Some company that is when you as an owner spend all day long posting on some game forums arguing about everything and nothing...... Thats why you are a moron.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.11.02 06:43:00 - [24]
 

So, because I make enough money for my needs without working much (if at all), I'm a moron ?
GREAT argument ! Oh, it hurts me so much...

Now stop trolling and answer TO the ISSUE.
Issue being, why should anybody care about your "plight", which is pretty much self-inflicted ?

Hardigeen
Posted - 2007.11.02 06:49:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Akita T
So, because I make enough money for my needs without working much (if at all), I'm a moron ?
GREAT argument ! Oh, it hurts me so much...

Now stop trolling and answer TO the ISSUE.
Issue being, why should anybody care about your "plight", which is pretty much self-inflicted ?


Oh no, you wont..
MY post will be the last one.

Dr Slurm
General Commodities
Posted - 2007.11.02 07:13:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Hardigeen
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Hardigeen
You should calm down first. Then you should do some work and stop posting on EVE forumus because you dont want to lose your job.

Unless I fire myself, I am in no danger of losing my job, since I run my own company in real-life.
NEXT ad-hominem argument ?


Some company that is when you as an owner spend all day long posting on some game forums arguing about everything and nothing...... Thats why you are a moron.


You should consider reading your own posts some time. Shocked

Hardigeen
Posted - 2007.11.02 07:56:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Hardigeen on 02/11/2007 07:57:23
Originally by: Dr Slurm
Originally by: Hardigeen
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Hardigeen
You should calm down first. Then you should do some work and stop posting on EVE forumus because you dont want to lose your job.

Unless I fire myself, I am in no danger of losing my job, since I run my own company in real-life.
NEXT ad-hominem argument ?


Some company that is when you as an owner spend all day long posting on some game forums arguing about everything and nothing...... Thats why you are a moron.


You should consider reading your own posts some time. Shocked


If you say so Dr....
Now go back to Market forums where you are a resident troll.
Here you are just a guest.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.11.02 07:59:00 - [28]
 

You know, feel free to keep posting "nothing" (i.e. spam), if you feel that somehow entitles you to "the last word"...

Hardigeen
Posted - 2007.11.02 08:03:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Hardigeen on 02/11/2007 08:06:54
Edited by: Hardigeen on 02/11/2007 08:04:21
Originally by: Akita T
You know, feel free to keep posting "nothing" (i.e. spam), if you feel that somehow entitles you to "the last word"...


LaughingI think you should really stop camping this thread I started. Do you feel I beat you at trolling so you had to stop by the Market and pick up a few more trolls like our dear "doctor"? Just try not to blob me... Laughing

EDIT: Link

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.11.02 08:08:00 - [30]
 

Nah, I just love feeding trolls like yourself.
You have not given a single argument why "any of this" is actually bad, yet imply it is.
You're not even presenting a challenge (meaning, an argument to dismantle), you're just resorting to... well, whatever it is you;re doing.
I grow quite easily tired of arguing besides the point, so I might stop "camping" this thread as you put it out of sheer boredom.
Unlucky for you, right now, I have nothing better left to do while waiting for the cable guys, so... give it your best shot.
Or was this so far "it" ?


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