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Jiks
Caldari
Prophets of Doom
Posted - 2007.10.30 21:40:00 - [331]
 

@ Hyakuchan,

Fair enough, you don't want carriers to carry stuff. Can I ask why and who would benefit from this idea?

Speaking as a regular on the old ASCN convoy runs I really don't think normal space freighter runs are remotely viable these days, not to mention horribly boring and time consuming. Why should players of a game be forced to return to say 7 hours of escorting freighters each week or more? Not much fun even it goes smoothly but bearing in mind nothing on that scale can be kept secret ... plus there are many more counters to frighter runs now than there were 18 months ago it prolly wouldnt go smoothly would it?

Thats before lag, waiting for escorts be be bullied into staying up half the night, waiting for bugged freighters to slow down from 13 M km/s ... etc. In short HORRIBLE and not something many want to pay to do for "fun."

I'm interested to know your logic since it seems closer to CCP's thn the rest of us have been able to get^^

Jiks

Ockk
Posted - 2007.10.30 21:42:00 - [332]
 

Meh, I'm training one of my characters to fly a carrier.. when it gets there, if this nerf is in place, I'm just going to cancel my accounts.

This is getting pretty ridiculous. They make flying these ships so hard to get to, and expensive. They know what the incentives are, after years of seeing them in the game.

If they allow an arbitrary and pointless decision like this to go through, I think it will demonstrate to me their complete inability to make rational decisions. In that case, I might as well save my money and time and find another game.

JitaScienceAlt1
Posted - 2007.10.30 21:44:00 - [333]
 

Edited by: JitaScienceAlt1 on 30/10/2007 21:43:49
Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr
Originally by: Banlish
STOP NERFING THE GAME.

FIX THE LAG WE ARE ALL begging you to fix day after day.

BoB, Goons, RA, FiX, MC, IAC, MM, TRI, RAZOR, SMASH, YouWhat, ALL of them, day after day, hour after hour ask for LAG FIXES. NOTHING ELSE.

How much more clear can we be?



Before you derail I'd hasten to point out that the Eve cluster is one of, if not THE most advanced gaming cluster on the planet. How exactly do you propose they pull a lag fix out of their ass when they're pioneering the tech?

"I demand you invent the lightbulb right now, because candles suck"?


D20, as in roll one. Id immagine if you took out all the complex maths of radial velocity and whatnot and instead made them modifiers to dice rolls, it would solve a lot of lag issues.

This carrier nerf is also stupid.

infinityshok
ZYNC
Posted - 2007.10.30 21:54:00 - [334]
 

Originally by: Jiks
@ Hyakuchan,

I'm interested to know your logic since it seems closer to CCP's thn the rest of us have been able to get^^

Jiks


His only intention was to become a fly in the ointment, so to speak. He had nothing useful to add. The character isnt even old enough to fly a carrier.

Ket Halpak
ANZAC ACADEMY
Posted - 2007.10.30 22:46:00 - [335]
 

Originally by: CCP Gangleri
Carrier != Hauler

Ships will be allowed to carry ammo in their cargo hold even while inside a ship maintenance bay. As it stands now carriers have a ship maintenance bay of 1m on Sisi. Nothing on Sisi is ever final. Please provide constructive feedback with minimal misinformation and speculation where possible.



I reiterate:

Carrier != Hauler


While carriers do not equal haulers, they are the current mainstay of 0.0 logistics due to their large jump range, so provide a faster and safer alternative to moving a freighter from empire to 0.0 space.

Can I ask what CCP intend the player base to use for 0.0 logistics if they do go ahead with this nerf?

With the introduction of Jump Freighters, I belive that they will eventually become the mainstay of 0.0 logistics due to their much larger hauling capability. I expect their will be a decline in the use of carriers as haulers, but there will not be an immediate jump as it appears CCP are expecting due to the long skill training times and the fact that these freighters will need to be constructed first.

I have tried to keep speculation down as much as possible, but it is not possible in this thread to remove speculation completely as people can only speculate on what we are going to have to do for 0.0 logistics should this change make it to the live server.

I believe this change to carriers will be have a large negative feedback on the game as a whole and will completely decimate 0.0 logistics, so I ask again, Why are you doing this to us CCP? Carrier != Hauler just is not a good enough response.

What people in this thread want is a detailed post that fully explains the reasoning behind this nerf and to feel like we are being listened to. The latter is the most important part CCP, right now the players responding in this thread would like to atleast belive you are listing to us rather than sticking you fingers in your ears going "LALALALALA Incoming NERF" as that is what it feels like to me right now.

If someone at CCP read through my post to the end of it, then thankyou.

Raevenor
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.10.30 23:58:00 - [336]
 

You know CCP, the CAOD forum has every alliance trolling and taking shots at each other in game, in this very one nerf in this very thread every single 0.0 space holding alliance is telling you this is a very, very BAD idea.

We don't like BoB or MC and the like but guess what, we all agree this is a terrible idea that will only create more work and suffering for anyone holding 0.0 space. Logistics is a terrible thing to do and the guys who have to actually go fuel these towers consistently are saints, the backbone of successful 0.0 alliance in Eve. You are killing the game with this change, it doesn't matter what 0.0 alliance you are, its a painful painful process that creates more headaches and makes people not want to play the game. Don't fix something that isn't broken as far as logistics go.

People who actually think this is a good idea are;

A> People who don't play the game
B> Are renter pets who don't have a clue
C> ******ed

Blunt as it is, its absolutely true.


Elmicker
Wreckless Abandon
Posted - 2007.10.31 00:11:00 - [337]
 

Originally by: CCP Gangleri
Carrier != Hauler


Congratulationg gangleri, you can have a cookie!!

We now have jump freighters.

If you've done your job properly, jump freighters == haulers.

Again, if you've done your job properly Proper balanced hauler > half-arsed job in a carrier.

Now. Let's compare this to a sub capital situation.

For hauling a hauler is superior to an expanded battleship.

Does this mean i'm banned from using a battleship as a hauler in a pinch? No, it doesn't.

Don't force things, CCP. You just **** things up in the short term. Instead let things naturally take over.

As it is now, you're screwing every 0.0 resident for the next 4 months until jump freighters come into play. This forces them to resort to an even more innapropriate mechanic - expanded dreadnoughts.

Verite Rendition
Caldari
F.R.E.E. Explorer
EVE Animal Control
Posted - 2007.10.31 00:16:00 - [338]
 

The thing that disappoints me the most about this is that CCP is going about it so covertly. For the carrier offensive changes, they made a very public blog post about the change and made it clear they were looking for feedback. For the carrier logistics nerf, they didn't publish anything and it's only due to the actions of a player that this even got noticed. The only dev comment has been a very standoffish post indicating that the decision has already been made and that our input isn't welcomed.

What's up with the Jeckll/Hyde handling of this? Is it because logistics has to get nerfed since the community complained too much about the offensive nerf? Or did someone skip out on their duties and not write up a blog post like they should have?

We have precious little time to prepare for this if Rev 3 is still going to make a November release. We need to know exactly what's going on and why, so that if CCP is going to go through with all of this, we can be prepared to keep 0.0 logistics from coming to a grinding halt. And this needs to be made public via a blog post, it's not fair to most of the players in the game that they're going to get nerfed like this without more than a couple days' warning.

Do the right thing CCP.

Vire Amarr
Amarr
Kernel of War
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.10.31 01:51:00 - [339]
 

Just a kestion you dummy from CCP how long do you think it will take to Get t freigthers ?

you have to invent them then build them and before builde a t1 freighter to be able to prod the t !!!!!

And thats if you are lucky enought to allready have prerequiered skill and that you only need to buy the new skill !!!

if not for many people it mean about 6/8 month if skilling and in this time an other nerf will occure.

Carrier drone nerf is ok even if it will not reduice lag but OK !
But logistik Nerf is BAD BAD BAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BADBAD BAD

How are we supposed to refuel pos during the time that the new freighter get produced ? By freakin operation of god maybe !!!
Oh No by the super rorqual !!!

You Say carrier are for fleet support and thats why you nerf it and what you do is create a rorqual that is a mobil factory that will do logistik !!!

NEXT NERF IS FOR RORQUAL !!!!!

You are focusing on aspect taht already take about 50% of energy of corp to focus on refuel escort jump ... know it will be 75+%

More Over you totally F*** up the market of Capital builders that invested 20 B to get production runing for carrier and that already had problem because of rise of mineral prices know well not only margin is low but more over if you nerf logistik capability it will be impossible to sell carrier class ship because they become useless.

So people who payed 800m for skill and 800m for ships can stick it up theres and say ok that ccp they are god and dont care about their player !!!

God damnt we paye your salary, we make your campagny runing and more important we are not kid like in other game we are adult and we are very likely to understand what you are heading to !

Always remeber that we are not usual mmoprg player we are most of us over 25+ year old in active life and not stupid WOW customers that are slaves of sony corp because they are kid and they don't know what to do.

The very stupid thing is that most carrier pilot have at least 2 account when it's not more and i dont talk about builder and so on !!

Don't Do this because you will loose a lot cause remerber :

Daily average connection is 25000 account so arround maybe 18000 real personnes and we already have more then 2000 signature in the petition agaisnt this nerf !

CCP you are not god and i'm shure that a 2000/3000 player resignation would be a real loose of account of 2 time maybe tree time more so from 3000 to 9000 account "active" of course so a drop from 25000 to 18000 average so a very big drop.

Please be resonable and move back on your nerf

Vire Amarr
Amarr
Kernel of War
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.10.31 03:29:00 - [340]
 

Want to Sell Brainless Thinkers >> Call 1800-CCP

For sale

42 M Sp Amarr >> MS/CARRIER/DREAD/HAS/... Comes with Carrier /25 HAS / Obelisk ....
42 M Sp gallente >> MS/CARRIER/DREAD/CS/... Comes with 10 CS
16 M SP Minmattar >> HAS/DICTOR/Carrier ready ... Comes with 15 HAS / 10 sabre
(10 M SP Minmattar >> CAPITAL PRODER)X 4
(6M SP Caldari >> Freighter pilot +ship)* 2

Give Of Full Set BPO PARTS and All Carrier, Dread ,Freighter BPO.

this is a joke not true >>> (Make me an offer ISK (Priceless indeed))

But this is what might happend for many account and they are really price less by the time I spend to build them UP !!!

So many people are in the same case Start from 0 learn skil to manage to fly ship and what you do ccp is to ruine the all thing

You can do minor changes to ship to balance power for exemple why not.

BUT DO NOT CHANGE THE USE OF IT OR TOTALLY RUINE IT.

YOU MAD CARRIER THAT WAY YOU CREATED HEAVY FUEL FOR POS , U CREATED POSSPAMMING YOU CANNOT CANNOT CANNOT COME BACK ON THAT BECAUSE YOU THINK THAT CARRIER ARE NOT SUPPOSE TO BE SUED THIS WAY !!

It is exactlly as if USAIR : BRITAIR or AIRFRANCE said , i'm sorry but we can't provise service please go to new york by Ship take a ferry It's a big mistake airplane were ment to be for Cargo Only !!!!

What would the reaction be ???

Maybe over 1B personnes beating the s***t out of USAIR BRITAIR AIRFRANCE CEO AND BURN THEM TO DUST !!

Well you are doing the some thing




HydroSan
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.10.31 03:39:00 - [341]
 

Edited by: HydroSan on 31/10/2007 03:46:15
I like many people trained up carriers so I could do my own personal logistics and maybe make some cash for people who don't have capitals and need things moved. I trained up and bought all those skillbooks with the intention of doing that because, hey, thats what carriers do.

You're essentially telling people "well you wasted all the time training up for those ships/saving up for those skillbooks" and forcing them to blow another 4-8b to do the same exact thing. How is this enriching to the game? How does forcing people who train for yet another ship which requires yet another 120-day grind to do some basic personal logistics going to make people have fun?

What's the big deal with carriers having a bit of cargo space to hold fuel, ammo, or supplies? If you want to phase out carriers as "logistics platforms", make it so the alternatives are more viable or appealing for the hardcore logistics folks. But if you remove the basic cargo capabilities of carriers, you hurt a lot of alliances whose members trained up for them with the intention of doing logistics.

I understand if it doesn't fit in with the vision of EVE you're attempting to create, but the ships have been in the game for two years and many people have used them exclusively for moving things. Do you guys at CCP believe logistics is fun or rewarding? These changes only make a long, drawn out and frustrating process all the more tedious. Forcing people to grind up for a new ship just so they can duplicate the capabilities of exactly what they had before is pushing the 'vision' too far and just making the game difficult for small-timers who don't have an alt anywhere near Freighter V, or anywhere near the ballparked cost of these new T2 freighters, which will cost about 4-8b when they first come out.

edit: I didn't mean this as a whine. I can understand if you don't want carriers to be "used as haulers." But seriously consider creating a module of some sort with (excessively) high fitting requirements for carriers that enables them to haul things, but not as well as the T2 freighters. Then the people who trained up carriers aren't entirely screwed as far as personal logistics go, and T2 freighters are still "the way to go" if you're someone like Grayton (who has posted in this thread, and should be listened to) who moves large amounts of stuff and nothing else.

Please consider holding off the changes until something like this is implemented or the new freighters are made viable for most people.

Hyakuchan
Earth Federation Space Force
Posted - 2007.10.31 03:50:00 - [342]
 

Edited by: Hyakuchan on 31/10/2007 04:00:58
Originally by: Jiks
@ Hyakuchan,

Fair enough, you don't want carriers to carry stuff. Can I ask why and who would benefit from this idea?

Speaking as a regular on the old ASCN convoy runs I really don't think normal space freighter runs are remotely viable these days, not to mention horribly boring and time consuming. Why should players of a game be forced to return to say 7 hours of escorting freighters each week or more? Not much fun even it goes smoothly but bearing in mind nothing on that scale can be kept secret ... plus there are many more counters to frighter runs now than there were 18 months ago it prolly wouldnt go smoothly would it?

Thats before lag, waiting for escorts be be bullied into staying up half the night, waiting for bugged freighters to slow down from 13 M km/s ... etc. In short HORRIBLE and not something many want to pay to do for "fun."

I'm interested to know your logic since it seems closer to CCP's thn the rest of us have been able to get^^

Jiks


A fair enough question.

I think they want to force alliances to protect their haulers in a concerted effort. Quite frankly, about half the alliances that exist today do not have the teamwork skills and leadership to survive a world where carriers can't haul.

CCP, I believe, aims to force players to form convoys and work in teams, by making it unfeasible for people to not do so. Essentially, they want people to do exactly what you object to. At least as I see it.

To put it another way...

CCP doesn't seem to approve of how easy it is to found an alliance today. They seem to want to force players to actually cooperate and take ownership of the operation of an alliance, by having to protect shipments and operations rather then simply operating solo for weeks and weeks and occasionally banding together for a warblob.

By making it harder and harder to maintain a POS frontier, they'll reduce the size of the alliance empires by making it difficult to maintain operations. BoB and RSF will suffocate under the flabby folds of their overextended POS lines, which were only possible because they could be maintained by an armada of unescorted carrier-haulers.

HydroSan
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.10.31 03:54:00 - [343]
 

Originally by: Hyakuchan
A fair enough question.

I believe CCP feels that the current POS war is too entrenched and that the only way they can fix it is to make it economically unfeasible for a single alliance to control more then a single region, and troublesome to control more then a constellation or two. By nerfing the everloving **** out of haulers until people are forced to conceed turf simply because it's too hard to maintain a foothold.

Further, I think they want to force alliances to protect their haulers in a concerted effort. Quite frankly, about half the alliances that exist today do not have the teamwork skills and leadership to survive a world where carriers can't haul.

CPP, I believe, aims to call those paper-tigers out and force them to either learn how to play as a group, or die and go back to solo carebearing in empire.

They want to force players to form convoys and work in teams, by making it unfeasible for people to not do so. Essentially, they want people to do exactly what you object to. At least as I see it.


I don't think you understand just how much effort goes into maintaining a true 0.0 alliance of any kind of size. Forcing people to run freighter ops or protect haulers does not enrich the game and taking the game back to the "stone age" will only make the game die a slow, agonizing death as veterans leave in droves.

And, thankfully, T2 freighters (e.g: jump haulers) entirely disprove your entire post and I conclude that you are a ****ty troll good day sir

Pirokobo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.10.31 03:58:00 - [344]
 

Edited by: Pirokobo on 31/10/2007 04:05:17
Quote:
thankfully, T2 freighters (e.g: jump haulers)


Then why the **** are people complaining about carrier-haulers being nerfed?

Clearly the answer is that people aren't satified with a ship that can simply jump and haul. They want a ship that can jump and haul AND fight... and CCP doesn't seem to want that.

It's not the hauling part that's the problem. It's the hauling and not needing people to cover your *** while you do it because you've got a personal flotilla of fighters at your disposal that's the problem.

pi squad
Scalding Pie Services
Posted - 2007.10.31 04:06:00 - [345]
 

Originally by: Pirokobo
Edited by: Pirokobo on 31/10/2007 04:04:49
Quote:
thankfully, T2 freighters (e.g: jump haulers) entirely disprove your entire post


Then why the **** are people complaining about carrier-haulers being nerfed?


It's been said a thousand times, you idiot, jump freighters will not be in the game for at least 3 months and in the meantime there will be a huge shortage of logistics manpower.

Hyakuchan
Earth Federation Space Force
Posted - 2007.10.31 04:10:00 - [346]
 

Edited by: Hyakuchan on 31/10/2007 04:13:41
Originally by: pi squad
It's been said a thousand times, you idiot, jump freighters will not be in the game for at least 3 months and in the meantime there will be a huge shortage of logistics manpower.


So?

It'll be an interesting three months.

You're looking at this like it's a problem. Get out your sword and start sharpening it you ****ing coward. Go conquer someone. Play EVE like the last round of RISK when you go and conquer half the map because nobody has any defenses.

I'd have thought Goon would be loving the prospect of three months without effectively supplied POSes on either side, after all the complaining about the last POS war.

HydroSan
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.10.31 04:19:00 - [347]
 

Originally by: Hyakuchan

I'd have thought Goon would be loving the prospect of three months without effectively supplied POSes on either side, after all the complaining about the last POS war.


Yes because BoB don't have multiple Titans that can jump around normal run of the mill freighters around in giant 30+ freighter convoys from POS to POS.

But please, continue to talk about things you have no knowledge of.

Hyakuchan
Earth Federation Space Force
Posted - 2007.10.31 04:26:00 - [348]
 

Originally by: HydroSan
Yes because BoB don't have multiple Titans that can jump around normal run of the mill freighters around in giant 30+ freighter convoys from POS to POS.


Titans were intended for what they're used for. If you're envious, try ****ing building a few.

Vire Amarr
Amarr
Kernel of War
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.10.31 04:26:00 - [349]
 

Originally by: HydroSan
Originally by: Hyakuchan

I'd have thought Goon would be loving the prospect of three months without effectively supplied POSes on either side, after all the complaining about the last POS war.


Yes because BoB don't have multiple Titans that can jump around normal run of the mill freighters around in giant 30+ freighter convoys from POS to POS.

But please, continue to talk about things you have no knowledge of.



Love you goonies ^^

So true and by the way (my be out topic but must say)

It's it funny that BoB bought a 4 titan 3/4 day before carrier nerf on logistik appears on SISI and seems to be a new issue for all of us for REV III !!!

Look like BoB have hell good manager that can see in close future !!

Know i can easily understand why spend 160B for a new titan that they could have built ^^ Very clever !!! And Manager should try on nationnal lottery because must have divination gift !!

In a month logistique will be Hell on earth for people with no titan

Kayl Breinhar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.10.31 04:34:00 - [350]
 

As other people have stated, you're designing a nerf where the ships designed to replace carriers and motherships in the logistics role will not be ready for a minimum of 20-30 days until the first invention attempts can be made on them.

Precious time was wasted at the outset because people assumed the ships would be Tier 2 and not Tech 2 from the first SiSi dumps. Additionally, people with freighter BPOs lose money on them when they're not in production, so they're usually always in production. Producers aren't going to cancel an active job so they can start rattling off copies. Even for the vast minority of BPO holders who had inactive BPOs at the time to stick into copy slots, the first 1-run BPCs won't be done until at least two weeks after the patch is introduced.

Then, assuming *unheard of* successes in invention, you then have to wait for however long it takes to build a T2 freighter (no one's shown a picture with that info yet). This is compounded by the fact that the production of a T1 ship will be needed to use in the T2 construction - there's another week tacked on to the time - even zero-day producers will not be able to roll their first T2 freighter out until at least +3 or +4 weeks after the patch, and that's assuming a massive stroke of luck with the fickle mistress called invention.

While quite a few people are flat out saying you can't do this, let me be the one to say, respectfully, that you can't do this yet. It's your game, but you're working against the clock here. You're forcing far too big a change on the population with far too little adjustment time.

PLEASE consider at the very least postponing this change until at least the 3.2 release so these ships you intend on being the linchpin of 0.0 logistics can actually disseminate to the alliances and corporations which will come to rely on them in the absence of carriers to do one of the most tedious and *thankless* jobs in this game.

Shan Juan
Amarr
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2007.10.31 04:37:00 - [351]
 

This change is total bull****. If the role of hauler was not intended for carriers, then why the hell did it take over 1 year for you to do something about it. Why was the ship even introduced with the goddamn capability. I've not even seen a mention of this glaring imbalance before.

You guys pretty much just annihilated the usefullness of carriers for many people. This is a huge change to the ship class, which from my perspective is gonna make the game that much more annoying. At the very least an SP refund should be offered for such a substantial change. I'd be kidding myself if I actually believed it'd happen though. Meh! Evil or Very Mad

Bund
Caldari
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.10.31 04:53:00 - [352]
 

Originally by: CCP Gangleri
Carrier != Hauler

Ships will be allowed to carry ammo in their cargo hold even while inside a ship maintenance bay. As it stands now carriers have a ship maintenance bay of 1m on Sisi. Nothing on Sisi is ever final. Please provide constructive feedback with minimal misinformation and speculation where possible.



I reiterate:

Carrier != Hauler


Your comment makes it abundantly clear that you have never done any meaningful logistics work in 0.0. Please ask one of your coworkers who is familiar with the game to help you out here, before you screw things up permanently for your paying customers.

Perpello
Astralite Technologies
Posted - 2007.10.31 04:57:00 - [353]
 

Originally by: CCP Gangleri
Carrier != Hauler

Ships will be allowed to carry ammo in their cargo hold even while inside a ship maintenance bay. As it stands now carriers have a ship maintenance bay of 1m on Sisi. Nothing on Sisi is ever final. Please provide constructive feedback with minimal misinformation and speculation where possible.

I reiterate:

Carrier != Hauler


Carrier ship maintance bay 1,000,000m3 = why do we want this anyway?

I've noticed that battleship unpackaged volume on the test server has reduced. With the new size of the carrier ship maintenance bay, carriers will be able to haul two battleships. How does the ability of a carrier to haul more ships up to two battleships agree with carrier != hauler. It is design hypocrisy.

I hope this is just a bad patch of ideas at CCP - it's certainly going very wrong for you at the moment. I was looking forward to Revelations III but not any more.



I reiterate:

EVE Online Subscription != worth paying until the nonsense ideas stop.

Until then, my accounts are staying in a state of not renewing.

Pinpisa Jormao
Posted - 2007.10.31 05:04:00 - [354]
 

Edited by: Pinpisa Jormao on 31/10/2007 05:10:11
Edited by: Pinpisa Jormao on 31/10/2007 05:06:29
Originally by: HydroSan

I don't think you understand just how much effort goes into maintaining a true 0.0 alliance of any kind of size. Forcing people to run freighter ops or protect haulers does not enrich the game and taking the game back to the "stone age" will only make the game die a slow, agonizing death as veterans leave in droves.



It's stupid that couple extremely dedicated guys can handle multi-region alliance logistics.

What needs to be done is make the game much faster paced and easier to use. Take the jump abilities out, speed up travel by regular ways, have autopilot warp to 0km, force people to do predictable escort duties that are easily interfered in war. Make it impossible to do logistics safely but also make the fuel cheaper and make it last much longer in towers.

That's how I see future for this game. Increase risk, make things a lot cheaper and easier and speed up everything - warps 10x faster than now for every ship etc, freighters for 100 M. Fuel for 1/10 current price..

Now given it's CCP we are talking about they'll make it so that single person with Expensive Ship will handle all logistics alone and no risk of getting hurt if he does everything right.

edit: And complete UI overhaul and get rid of the long delays in many actions and viewing of corp hangars etc etc. In essence, rewrite the game, EVE sucks.

Vire Amarr
Amarr
Kernel of War
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.10.31 05:10:00 - [355]
 

Edited by: Vire Amarr on 31/10/2007 05:14:29
Originally by: Pinpisa Jormao
Edited by: Pinpisa Jormao on 31/10/2007 05:06:29
Originally by: HydroSan

I don't think you understand just how much effort goes into maintaining a true 0.0 alliance of any kind of size. Forcing people to run freighter ops or protect haulers does not enrich the game and taking the game back to the "stone age" will only make the game die a slow, agonizing death as veterans leave in droves.



It's stupid that couple extremely dedicated guys can handle multi-region alliance logistics.

What needs to be done is make the game much faster paced and easier to use. Take the jump abilities out, speed up travel by regular ways, have autopilot warp to 0km, force people to do predictable escort duties that are easily interfered in war. Make it impossible to do logistics safely but also make the fuel cheaper and make it last much longer in towers.

That's how I see future for this game. Increase risk, make things a lot cheaper and easier and speed up everything - warps 10x faster than now for every ship etc, freighters for 100 M. Fuel for 1/10 current price..

Now given it's CCP we are talking about they'll make it so that single person with Expensive Ship will handle all logistics alone and no risk of getting hurt if he does everything right.



Yes genius !!

And what about people that spare money during month to get skill and ship and finnaly discover taht they spar time and money and sp traning for nothing !!

By the way if an alliances needed up to 70 people to handle logistik do you really think that evemap would look the same ??
Many alliances running region are often around 150 to 250 personnes , so the right thing would be to use 35% of people for only longistik when they are very good and logistik loving people that want to care of it and do great job being 20 only ?

What is wrong with you ? War is Logistik to support war not war to support logistiks !!! For gods sak


HydroSan
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.10.31 05:10:00 - [356]
 

Edited by: HydroSan on 31/10/2007 05:12:33
Originally by: Pinpisa Jormao
It's stupid that couple extremely dedicated guys can handle multi-region alliance logistics.



If by a "couple" you mean a "couple dozen" and by "extremely dedicated" you mean "doing nothing but logistics on two or more accounts" then you'd be spot on.

Pinpisa Jormao
Posted - 2007.10.31 05:14:00 - [357]
 

Originally by: HydroSan
Edited by: HydroSan on 31/10/2007 05:12:33
Originally by: Pinpisa Jormao
It's stupid that couple extremely dedicated guys can handle multi-region alliance logistics.



If by a "couple" you mean a "couple dozen" and by "extremely dedicated" you mean "doing nothing but logistics on two or more accounts" then you'd be spot on.


That's another thing. Get rid of the need for multiple accounts and make it instant alt-tab type switch between characters. In essence, trash the codebase.

Pinpisa Jormao
Posted - 2007.10.31 05:29:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: Vire Amarr

War is Logistik to support war not war to support logistiks !!! For gods sak



?? It should be possible to cripple the corp/alliance easily by targeting the logistics guys, they're what keeps the towers fueled. With all the current mechanisms in place the wars are won by propaganda and such in the forums and decided long before any battle takes places. The fights in game are totally irrelevant and even people who enjoy fleet fights wonder why did we just fight anyway? It was just a skirmish with no purpose, the real fate of the alliance is in hands of couple people and the forum efforts.

The reason this game is fun has nothing to do with the game and that's an area where improvements can be made without taking anything out. Make it possible to effect outcome of wars by preventing fueling of towers and so on.

Vire Amarr
Amarr
Kernel of War
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.10.31 05:35:00 - [359]
 

Originally by: Pinpisa Jormao
Originally by: Vire Amarr

War is Logistik to support war not war to support logistiks !!! For gods sak



?? It should be possible to cripple the corp/alliance easily by targeting the logistics guys, they're what keeps the towers fueled. With all the current mechanisms in place the wars are won by propaganda and such in the forums and decided long before any battle takes places. The fights in game are totally irrelevant and even people who enjoy fleet fights wonder why did we just fight anyway? It was just a skirmish with no purpose, the real fate of the alliance is in hands of couple people and the forum efforts.

The reason this game is fun has nothing to do with the game and that's an area where improvements can be made without taking anything out. Make it possible to effect outcome of wars by preventing fueling of towers and so on.


No War is in the center always sometime there is no fight it true.
Logistik is a big issue to get war possible but it's not possible to deploye pos in hotile sys without powerfull back up.

Logistik is what make war possible and it is also true that most of the time a small team manage to prepare for fighter to succes/not.

Pinpisa Jormao
Posted - 2007.10.31 05:46:00 - [360]
 

Edited by: Pinpisa Jormao on 31/10/2007 05:51:31
I'd like a lot of freighters running around with mid size escorts and lot of mid size freighter gank groups in 0.0 trying to stop them.

It's something alliances need to do so there's no chance to hide at POS or dock, you either do the escorts or you lose the space.

Important thing is the ships need to be faster and gang need to be fully autopiloted so you can do other things while on the long trip. The value of 0.0 space should also be increased by removing belt, exploration and other crap that you can do solo and adding complexes that drop 10 billion loot and require 100 size gang to run (hostiles should be able to interfere with the plexing easily). Did I say exploration, ratting and mining sucks.


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