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Delphi Disra
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.10.24 00:48:00 - [1]
 

Ravens are the only ships that really use torpedoes, the fact that they are slow as a sloth would make them almost usless when using torpedoes. And ravens are the only ships that really use torpedos.

At least allow the raven to stay good at what they do, ratting. If you nerf the torpedoes to only 30k they would become totally useless and caldari nerfed even further, leaving gallante and amarr as the kings.

I can see you wanting them to have shorter range but make it somthing reasonable like 50k so that torpedoes can still be used for ratting!


d026
temp holding
Posted - 2007.10.24 00:55:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: d026 on 24/10/2007 00:55:41
torpedos will be extremely usefull (except for mission whoring). and protip: for ratting fit a mwd!




Delphi Disra
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.10.24 00:58:00 - [3]
 

The rats have far far faster MWD's they can go way faster than any raven ever could.


Yes they wont be useufull for mission whoring anymore which is the only use of a raven now a days.

ragewind
Caldari
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
Posted - 2007.10.24 01:00:00 - [4]
 

make rats short range if the rats engage at 30KM or below and all is good

Delphi Disra
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.10.24 01:04:00 - [5]
 

I agree that would also be a viable solution.... just decrease all rats engagement range to 30km or below

sallyr
Gallente
House of Marbles
Posted - 2007.10.24 01:09:00 - [6]
 

frankly i love the idea of caldari finaly become less of a F1-6 sit back and relax!
maby now you might have to move!!!
lol

but really every other race has a short range high damage alternative bar caldari . . who just has 2 very long range options and the only dissadvantage being that it takes a while to get there!

(not that important in a fight where time is not of the essence!)

this way torps are finaly like blasters and autocannons and cruse are finaly like rails and howwys!
every other ship has to fly to its target to use its close range guns . . .why shouldnt caldari . . remember you still dont have falloff to worry about!

Delphi Disra
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.10.24 01:30:00 - [7]
 

It was caldari's only positive thing.

Now they are in my opinion worse off than mimnitars.

If you want them to move dont make them slower than the opponent they are meant to kill.

Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2007.10.24 01:40:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Delphi Disra
It was caldari's only positive thing.

Now they are in my opinion worse off than mimnitars.

If you want them to move dont make them slower than the opponent they are meant to kill.


Raven is faster than the plated neutron blaster mega, hundreds of pilots everyday fly the plated neutron bthron.

Whine more please.

d026
temp holding
Posted - 2007.10.24 01:42:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: d026 on 24/10/2007 01:42:54
Edited by: d026 on 24/10/2007 01:42:31
Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: Delphi Disra
It was caldari's only positive thing.

Now they are in my opinion worse off than mimnitars.

If you want them to move dont make them slower than the opponent they are meant to kill.


Raven is faster than the plated neutron blaster mega, hundreds of pilots everyday fly the plated neutron bthron.

Whine more please.


and teh funny thing is. the raven does now more dps from its main weaponery than a mega while having double its range:P

it sucks beeing gallente aint it?:) and to delphi stfu and get a clue



Delphi Disra
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.10.24 01:55:00 - [10]
 

LOL

There is no way in a hell any raven could ever beat a properly fitted megathron... i think it's you who needs to get a clue.
The mega can fly faster, it can out snipe and out dps due to the fact that the raven could never get in plausible range to kill you. You could just warp off before the torps hit.

If you keep the torps to 30k than the raven needs a serious speed boost so that it can actually catch ships unless you want to religate it to POS bashing and POS bashing only.

Lothros Andastar
Gallente
Posted - 2007.10.24 03:13:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Delphi Disra

The mega can fly faster,



What part of raven is faster than a plated blasterthron didnt enter your thick skull? So they reduce torp range and now u want the whole game to change around you? Grow up

Incantare
Posted - 2007.10.24 03:19:00 - [12]
 

I think the new torps changes are fine but the Raven could use some more grid or have torp grid reqs reduced so it has an easier time fitting an mwd.

d026
temp holding
Posted - 2007.10.24 03:25:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Incantare
I think the new torps changes are fine but the Raven could use some more grid or have torp grid reqs reduced so it has an easier time fitting an mwd.


with a buffer tank you can fit a full rack of sieges/webber/tp/mwd without having to resort to fitting mods while still having comparable effective hp like a trimarked / plated mega.




Siege
Minmatar
Siegecraft Bounty Hunting
Posted - 2007.10.24 03:27:00 - [14]
 

What noobs were you fighting in a raven that you were hitting targets at 200km anyways? Who honestly sits there that long for you to hit them? Torps are useless for ranged PvP anyways even if they kept them long ranged. Not to mention the base stats I was seeing for the torps aren't that bad for range, Javelins will have a base range around 45km. And don't missle bombardment and projection work on torps? That would give them a 90km range!

Though I haven't seen yet the changes to the launchers, aren't they supposed to be getting a big boost in ROF?


Incantare
Posted - 2007.10.24 03:49:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: d026


with a buffer tank you can fit a full rack of sieges/webber/tp/mwd without having to resort to fitting mods while still having comparable effective hp like a trimarked / plated mega.



The big difference is that the mega has four pvp utility mids while you only have three. Drop an extender/invuln for a med injector so you aren't dead in the water after a couple mwd cycles / a few med neuts, or fit a warp disruptor, and you suddenly have a good chunk less effective hp.

The mega is also fitting a heavy cap booster, good luck fitting that with a mwd, siege and a tank worth talking about. Though since its guns use cap, I'm perfectly fine with that.

My main gripe with the grid is that the siege raven is left with two high slots fitted with nothing worth talking about while the neutron mega only loses one.

Lara Roxx
Gallente
Valkyries of Valhalla
Posted - 2007.10.24 03:49:00 - [16]
 

o noes i cant do my missions as quickly anymore waa waa waa.

your completely ignoring the fact that a raven can do over 1000 dps now a 1000!!! and dont give me any of that bull that you cant get in range, plenty of other pilots figured it out, so should you.

Delphi Disra
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.10.24 08:17:00 - [17]
 

Well than how about we remove the megathrons sniping capabilities lets see how you feel than :)

Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
House of El
Posted - 2007.10.24 08:27:00 - [18]
 

It is pretty easy to survive a sniping Megathron. You just warp off, just like you do with a Raven trying to snipe.

You got cruise missiles for long range and torps for short range. I got Mega Beams for long range and Mega Pulse for short range. If i fit Pulse, I better fit an AB or I can't get in range with every single rat.
So I chose when I fit the ship. Long or short. Much damage or less damage.
Why should Raven pilots not have to chose?

Amy Wang
Posted - 2007.10.24 08:32:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Delphi Disra
Ravens are the only ships that really use torpedoes, the fact that they are slow as a sloth would make them almost usless when using torpedoes. And ravens are the only ships that really use torpedos.



Riiiight, Phoons never use torps and tempests will never fit torps into their spare 2 highs...oh, wait wrong, they do.

Only that those ships are hit much harder by the range nerf then the raven, try under 20km torp range on them which is especially painful if your other main weapon system is better used outside of that range. Ravens at least get the 50% velocity bonus for sweet 30km gank range.

Zixxa
Posted - 2007.10.24 08:45:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: sallyr
frankly i love the idea of caldari finaly become less of a F1-6 sit back and relax!
maby now you might have to move!!!
lol

but really every other race has a short range high damage alternative bar caldari . . who just has 2 very long range options and the only dissadvantage being that it takes a while to get there!

(not that important in a fight where time is not of the essence!)

this way torps are finaly like blasters and autocannons and cruse are finaly like rails and howwys!
every other ship has to fly to its target to use its close range guns . . .why shouldnt caldari . . remember you still dont have falloff to worry about!

Shut up, kid. You do not know what is Caldari.

Zixxa
Posted - 2007.10.24 08:54:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes
It is pretty easy to survive a sniping Megathron. You just warp off, just like you do with a Raven trying to snipe.

You got cruise missiles for long range and torps for short range. I got Mega Beams for long range and Mega Pulse for short range. If i fit Pulse, I better fit an AB or I can't get in range with every single rat.
So I chose when I fit the ship. Long or short. Much damage or less damage.
Why should Raven pilots not have to chose?

a) Caldari need two separate skill to use short and long range weapons. Try to get it it up to 5.
b) Caldari cannot sacrifice damage for range as any turret ship can.
c) Caldari can not make instant damage.
d) Only missile DPS is heavy decreased by NPC(when ratting/missioning).
e) Only missiles are heavy dependent from the target signature
f) Only missiles are dependent from the enemy ship speed at any distance in any direction.
g) All Caldari ships are slow, heavy and sluggish.

Turrets have one drawback: tracking.

So now you know why most agressive Alliances in the game rarely use missile boats. You may check AAA, BoB, MC, RA, etc.

Karyuudo Tydraad
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2007.10.24 09:14:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Zixxa

a) Caldari need two separate skill to use short and long range weapons. Try to get it it up to 5.
b) Caldari cannot sacrifice damage for range as any turret ship can.
c) Caldari can not make instant damage.
d) Only missile DPS is heavy decreased by NPC(when ratting/missioning).
e) Only missiles are heavy dependent from the target signature
f) Only missiles are dependent from the enemy ship speed at any distance in any direction.
g) All Caldari ships are slow, heavy and sluggish.

Turrets have one drawback: tracking.

So now you know why most agressive Alliances in the game rarely use missile boats. You may check AAA, BoB, MC, RA, etc.


a) Missiles require far less SP than gunnery.
b) You're hitting equally at all ranges with your high damage ammunition.
c) Offset by inability to miss and equal damage at all ranges, as well as ability to choose damage type.
d) Ignoring the fact that balancing ships based on how they perform in PVE is ridiculous, this is because the Caldari missile boats completely dominate PVE, even with defender missile spam.
e) Not true, turrets deal reduced damage bassed on target sig radius vs the signature resolution of your weapons as well.
f) Missile damage is reduced by this, whereas a turret ship is unable to hit at all.
g) This is to offset the lack of tracking and obscene range of cruise missiles.

Missile boats are not popular in alliance warfare only because targets in fleet battles are far apart and are often dead before your missiles reach the target.

Cytherion
Posted - 2007.10.25 13:51:00 - [23]
 

Tried out my Faction fitted CNR on test for the first time with DG Torp launchers and DG BCUs.
Was amazed to see close to 1900 dps output with about 4-5 sec ROF on torp launchers over a 30km range. I also noticed torp explosion radius was 450

I can see torps being extremely deadly in a close range gank, possibly deadlier than a Blasterthron or a Gankageddon

As for Ravens being able to get in range of the enemy fast enough or not is a different story.

General Oniell
Caldari
Wrecking Shots
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2007.10.25 14:41:00 - [24]
 

i know that when i go on pos bashing ops, i use torps. just because they have a higher damage output than cruise missiles do. now... this isnt going to be possible if youre gonna put the range to 9km. i mean, seriously.

now, i do understand that every race has its long range and short range ammo. and caldari are mostly any range.. my torps are able to hit up to 85-90km or so. my cruise can hit over 140km if memory serves correctly. they dont hit nearly as hard as torps do, but with a great range.

one of the most notable differences between missiles and guns/lasers is that the guns, hit as soon as they are fired.. missiles however, you have to sit and wait 5 minutes before you actually hit your target that is 120km away or so.. which gives them ample time to warp out or w/e. with guns, youre gonna hit em if you have the range to do so. missiles already have a downside to em.. the delay between firing and the actual hit.

so... sure, go ahead, pull out the ol nerf bat. youre just screwin us caldari over a little more.

Zenobite
The Red Exhilez
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
Posted - 2007.10.25 14:56:00 - [25]
 

been using torp raven on the test server and really liking most of the changes, now it can do some real damage against other battleships, i still think the explosion radius is a bit harsh. But aprt from that I'm happy to trade range for rof

Chr0nosX
Habitual Euthanasia
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.10.25 15:01:00 - [26]
 

The Torp raven is now awesome and your whining? Why?

Tarazed Aquilae
Posted - 2007.10.25 15:40:00 - [27]
 

Torpedo launchers require far more grid and cpu than cruise launchers do. Blasters require significantly less grid and cpu than railguns do. (I believe this rule holds for other weapons as well.) Short ranged weapons are easier to fit because you have to fit a mwd and a heavy tank if you are going to get into rangeÖ Except for siege launchers which are much harder to fit.

So, if torpedoes get a major range reduction then the launchers should me made much easier to fit.

The raven is a shield tanker. With six midslots it can fit a very solid (and very cap hungry) tank. But now itíll have to fit a mwd to get into range. This takes up a valuable midslot and scarce grid and cpu, it also seriously reduces your capacitor and puts a huge drain on its diminished capacity.

And the larger explosion radius of the new torpedoes means that you will need to fit a target painter to do significant damage to anything but other battleships. Thatís reasonable I guess, but it costs the raven another midslot.

And you need a cap booster to keep your cap alive what with the mwd and a shield booster to feed. There goes another midslot.

And your torps are never going to catch most PvP ships anyway, so you are going to need a web. Say goodbye to another midslot.

Of course you need at least one sensor booster to lock things in a reasonable amount of time. Goodbye midslot number 5.

Then thereís the warp scrambler... Guess Iím going to have to armor tank. But then I lose the damage mods in the lowslots. I also lose any chance to boost my already pathetic speed. If I fit a plate then Iím going to be painfully slow, even with the mwd.

Even in a gang there Iím going to lose most of my tank just to fit other essential equipment. Remember that I canít fit the X-Large shield booster because the mwd and torpedoes are taking so much of my grid and cpuÖ In all honesty Iím not even sure I can fit torps, a mwd, and a large shield booster at the same timeÖ Iím pretty sure I canít if I fit a large cap booster too.

I appreciate what CCP is trying to do, but they canít turn the Raven into another Blasterthron with these changes. The ships are just fundamentally different. Torpedoes are good at killing big slow targets. Shortening their range and increasing their damage will just make them good at killing big, slow, close targets. Thatís not going to help in the age of nano gangs, HACs and Command Ships.

Now, if you want to give the Raven a PvP roleÖ
Boost its sensors so it locks targets as fast as a cruiser does. Make them hard to jam/damp while you are at it.

Create a new, long ranged, ultra fast, cruise missile that can catch and kill those annoying nanoships. The missile should obviously do less damage than a conventional cruise missile. It could even have some different effects like webbing/scrambling any target it hits for 5 seconds.

If you do this, then Ravens are going to be in high demand in PvP.


James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.10.25 16:09:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Karyuudo Tydraad


a) Missiles require far less SP than gunnery.



Actually, I'd like to pick up on that one - it's not entirely the case. It's true to say to get T2 torps, requires less skills than to get T2 rails. However there's actually more skills required to be proficient in all missiles, to spec 4, than there is to be the same level of proficiency with turrets.

But back on topic.

I think this change is brilliant, and much needed. Ravens have cruise missiles for long range damage, and torps for short range. The raven is fat and slow, but it also has the longest range 'short range' weapon. It needs a TP to get full damage, but the turret ships need a web to be effective. It can't tank and gank, and tackle, but hey, neither can anything else.


Drakinar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.10.25 16:27:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Zixxa
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes
It is pretty easy to survive a sniping Megathron. You just warp off, just like you do with a Raven trying to snipe.

You got cruise missiles for long range and torps for short range. I got Mega Beams for long range and Mega Pulse for short range. If i fit Pulse, I better fit an AB or I can't get in range with every single rat.
So I chose when I fit the ship. Long or short. Much damage or less damage.
Why should Raven pilots not have to chose?

a) Caldari need two separate skill to use short and long range weapons. Try to get it it up to 5.
b) Caldari cannot sacrifice damage for range as any turret ship can.
c) Caldari can not make instant damage.
d) Only missile DPS is heavy decreased by NPC(when ratting/missioning).
e) Only missiles are heavy dependent from the target signature
f) Only missiles are dependent from the enemy ship speed at any distance in any direction.
g) All Caldari ships are slow, heavy and sluggish.

Turrets have one drawback: tracking.

So now you know why most agressive Alliances in the game rarely use missile boats. You may check AAA, BoB, MC, RA, etc.


Okay, don't make the mistake of confusing all caldari ships with the raven.
Caldari are not just missile users. At the cruiser level you can choose the Moa or the Caracal for effective damage, missiles or guns.
At the BC level, ferox or drake, missiles or guns.
At the Battleship level, Scorp, Raven, or Rohk, ewar, missiles, or guns.
Caldari has the longest range sniping BS in the game, yet all you people seem to do is whine about how your torps are being nerfed.
You aren't even the only ones that use torps, as previously stated, so do Typhoons and Tempests. Do you see them whining?
If it is such a devastating blow to you that your torps are being changed to the same way other race's weapons systems work, then fly a Rohk with rails or blasters and stop whining. Alternatively, you now have to choose between range or damage just like every other race with your missiles. It's already been this way with heavy missiles, the difference between heavies and HAMs, it's about time that CCP conformed the battleship missile classes to this model aswell.

Futureface01
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2007.10.25 17:27:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Chr0nosX
The Torp raven is now awesome and your whining? Why?


Simple. Depends on what you use them on. They have been removed from PVE. Not just nerfed, removed. They cant be used. Not with max skills, rigs and implants. Torpedos will not travel far enough to hit an NPC fighting at its desired distance. No MWDs allowed in missions.

Torps are NOT awesome now, they're gone now. Removed.... Bye bye Torpedos...

I'd say thats justification for people to whine.


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