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blankseplocked Devs: delete the Apoc please (and its decaffeinated T2 version)
 
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Letifer Deus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.10.28 17:14:00 - [331]
 

Edited by: Letifer Deus on 28/10/2007 20:46:33
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

Originally by: Letifer Deus
Now you're just being difficult because you have no other argument left. Yep, blasters are the highest dps weapon. What's your point? You can't leave range completely out of dps comparisons (because range affects dps), or simply look at the short range weapon class. You know both of these and you know amarr are strong in both short range weapon optimal and long range weapon dps, but all you amarr whiners ever want to look at is short range dps and long range optimal. Iiiiiinteresting.


Actually no. It is you who is being dodgy and changing course as your arguments fail.

You said:
"I said comparing the mega on DAMAGE TERMS was stupid. We were on the subject of dps. The apoc is NOT meant to be a high dps ship, so picking the apoc for a dps comparison is dumb."

And...

"i picked arma because it is the dps ship between the amarr teir 1 and tier 2 BS, not because it was comparable on any of those other points (many of which are racial characteristics, and have nothing to do with the arma in particular). We were on the topic of dps comparisons."

So I went with your way (DPS comparisons) and then you switch back. Make up your mind but thanks for making my point for me.


How did I change course? Where did my argument fail? The apoc ISN'T meant to be a high DPS ship. Oh wait, you're right, cap capacity and energy turret cap usage bonuses just scream DPS ship. I merely responded to what you said. I said yes, blasters do more raw dps than pulse, imagine that. I said you can't leave optimal range out of damage comparisons or completely ignore the long range weapon class, which is exactly what you did. I responded to all the "fallings" of the arma you gave, which were basically either racial trends or tier 1 trends. Is the tier 1 arma supposed to have more cap and more hp than the tier 2 megathron, which costs 43% more? What is your point there?

All you've said so is that the highest dps ship is a blasterthron/hyp. And that is saying nothing but that blasterships are as intended.

The only place I can see you getting confused is my bad habit to interchange damage and dps. blasterthron/hyp are the highest dps ships, but they are not necessarily the most damaging.

Letifer Deus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.10.28 17:56:00 - [332]
 

Edited by: Letifer Deus on 28/10/2007 18:07:20
Originally by: Yukisa
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: Letifer Deus
I just can't stand the stupid arguments and outrageous boost suggestions some of you whiners make. Neutral


And I can't understand how you find it outrageous that we would like our Marauder to do the same damage as our Tier3 BS, something that the Kronos already does.


It does more dps than the tier3 hype with the extra drones and tracking.


The marauders are based on the tier 2 T1 BS. paladin needs better scan res (it has the lower sensor str, but not the higher scan res? ugh), 6000 base cap (same as apoc) and +500-750 pg.

Cleron
Posted - 2007.10.29 01:05:00 - [333]
 

You know full well that 4 Tach's is more then enough to bring the Abaddon to her knees in a few short minutes with out additional cap mods (most notably cap boosters). These ships are going to need all the cap they can get to run the extra mods they will be expected to run. Having a ship that consumes roughly the amount of cap with 4 guns that a hybrid user consumes with 8+ guns IS a problem.

Additionally i feel no need to explain further as to why i would prefer the bonus up front as opposed to per lvl. If you actually fly Amarr with any consistency you already know the pain of having to train new ships to lvl 5 (Months of training) just to get that extra 10% cap, and the difference it can make.

I honestly don't care if you can't make as much isk with her as your Abaddon, or Geddon, or CNR. As far as I'm concerned it's irrelevant. There was always going to be one stand out among the group for the mission runners, and it's not the Pally. Just once i would actually like to see a true to god TANKING Amarr ship. We have our Gank Geddon, Our Fleet Abaddon, &... well the less said about the Apoc the better.

I don't think it's that hard to understand why i would like these changes opposed to another dam damage bonus, or why i like the 20km Webber over the tracking bonus. It's different, and something Amarr was meant to be good at that never really eventuated.




Draec Sjet
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2007.10.29 01:15:00 - [334]
 

The apoc makes for a better fleet ship than the Abaddon as it can run 7 tachs easily when fitted properly for as long as you like. Ok, so it does less damage than the Armageddon, and the Abaddon, but it's the only one of the three which has a cap that can sustain Tachyon Beams.

The Armageddon and the Abaddon are better with less demanding guns on a more close range PVP scenario. Their cap just isn't up to firing off Tachyons.

Kinta Kulu
Posted - 2007.10.29 01:30:00 - [335]
 

/Signed

Any chance i can get all my SP reimbursed and put into gallente instead Rolling EyesLaughingLaughingLaughing

Ereinion Erinsal
Posted - 2007.10.29 02:44:00 - [336]
 

Edited by: Ereinion Erinsal on 29/10/2007 02:46:01
/signed in my blood
/wrists
Baby Jesus cries for Amarr. I played them because I liked the thought of lasers, not knowing that I would waste a year training frig / cruiser / bs 5 for them (and the laser / cap skills, and lets not forget training for tech 2 noses, **** im screwed each way). CCP, please let me redo my spaceship command skillpoints so I can fly a ship that is worth it (maybe a Myrm, oh wait, nvrmind). The only 2 ships amarr have going for the is the Titan, and what, 5 people can fly them, and the Geddon with Pulses, getting 700 dps out on a mission ship with a tank is priceless. I sold my Abbadon because it can't tank and fire.
/---\
()CCP() (HELP!!!!)>Amarr
Amarr> Buff Pl0x?
CCP>LALALA!! Can't hear you

Letifer Deus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.10.29 05:17:00 - [337]
 

Edited by: Letifer Deus on 29/10/2007 05:58:02
Originally by: Cleron
You know full well that 4 Tach's is more then enough to bring the Abaddon to her knees in a few short minutes with out additional cap mods (most notably cap boosters). These ships are going to need all the cap they can get to run the extra mods they will be expected to run. Having a ship that consumes roughly the amount of cap with 4 guns that a hybrid user consumes with 8+ guns IS a problem.


yes, it eats up cap like crazy, but you also have to remember that a tachyon abbadon has badass dps. 25% more than a 425 hyperion. That's pretty crazy like. However, I do think amarr need a 15-20% or so cap usage reduction. Laser cap use should be HIGH, but not quite as high as it is and with the trend in amarr going towards dmg/rof bonuses instead of the cap usage reduction the, "why should lasers use less cap (with bonuses) than hybrids" argument is much less of an argument.

Remember though, amarr are technically supposed to be plate tankers, so saying they cant run reps as well as gallente because of their gun cap usage is somewhat of a moot point. Gallente can't plate tank as well as amarr, at least on amarr ships with an armor res. or armor hp bonus.

But for that to be a really valid argument, more amarr ships need to see a plate tanking advantage instead of it simply being, "what amarr are supposed to do." Move HP even more away from shields and towards armor on all amarr ships (take 10% of base shield hp and add it to base armor hp) and give more ships armor hp/armor res bonuses. The damnation has sick ass plate tanking potential with both an armor res and armor hp bonus.

Replace the apoc's cap capacity and cap usage reduction bonuses for armor res and armor hp bonuses. A triple 1600 tung, triple trimark plate tanked apoc would be pretty crazy with 50% armor bonus and 25% res bonus. With my slaves I'd have 73K armor, 91.25K effective. o_0 Now THAT is an apoc I would fly. Very Happy

So, here's what I personally feel amarr need:

fixed damage spread - 4,3,2 (L,M,S) points in EM moved over to thermal for all crystals
reduced engy turret cap usage - 15-20% reduction
focus even more on armor hp - move 10% of base shield hp to base armor hp.
make them better plate tankers - give more ships armor res. and/or armor hp bonuses
fix some of the stupid slot layouts - having lots of low slots is nice, but a 4-2-4 on the crusader and 5-1-5 on the reti makes them near worthless. 4-3-3 and 4-2-5 might be the ticket.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2007.10.29 08:28:00 - [338]
 

No one said APOC role shoudl be dps, biut it has NO ROLE!!! because it cannto make any fit that bennefit formits huge cap (not so huge sdince hyperion has almost same cap)

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2007.10.29 08:32:00 - [339]
 

Originally by: Letifer Deus

yes, it eats up cap like crazy, but you also have to remember that a tachyon abbadon has badass dps. 25% more than a 425 hyperion.


Yeah but 425 has more range.

Funny how people forget about the range when talking about long range hybrids compared to tachs but then bring the issue back when discussing blasters vs pulses.

Zana Kito
Posted - 2007.10.29 08:40:00 - [340]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Letifer Deus

yes, it eats up cap like crazy, but you also have to remember that a tachyon abbadon has badass dps. 25% more than a 425 hyperion.


Yeah but 425 has more range.

Funny how people forget about the range when talking about long range hybrids compared to tachs but then bring the issue back when discussing blasters vs pulses.


It doesn't do more dps factoring in 2 RCU II for geddon to fit tachs, or abbadon to fit all cap rechargers to even sustain fire.

Not only that, but it doesn't do anywhere near railgun dps after factoring in resists. Fail.

CountDrakula
Perkone
Posted - 2007.10.29 08:52:00 - [341]
 

people serrisly where you all born yesterday, or did you fail to look at the paladin propelry. Ive flown the 8 heat sink geddon when that was allowed and i nnow fly megats, but im sure as hell getting a paladin. Reason is quiet simple. have a good long think about its bonuses people


Zana Kito
Posted - 2007.10.29 09:05:00 - [342]
 

Originally by: CountDrakula
people serrisly where you all born yesterday, or did you fail to look at the paladin propelry. Ive flown the 8 heat sink geddon when that was allowed and i nnow fly megats, but im sure as hell getting a paladin. Reason is quiet simple. have a good long think about its bonuses people



So enlighten everyone else on why the paladin is so superior to the kronos or other marauder..

Dristra
Amarr
Idle Haven
Posted - 2007.10.29 09:13:00 - [343]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Letifer Deus

yes, it eats up cap like crazy, but you also have to remember that a tachyon abbadon has badass dps. 25% more than a 425 hyperion.


Yeah but 425 has more range.

Funny how people forget about the range when talking about long range hybrids compared to tachs but then bring the issue back when discussing blasters vs pulses.


The paradox... it is sad is it not?

Hastur DragonTooth
Amarr
Optimus Crime.
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2007.10.29 09:19:00 - [344]
 

Originally by: CountDrakula
people serrisly where you all born yesterday, or did you fail to look at the paladin propelry. Ive flown the 8 heat sink geddon when that was allowed and i nnow fly megats, but im sure as hell getting a paladin. Reason is quiet simple. have a good long think about its bonuses people




Wonderful bonus. You'll be able to lock onto people's ships with tractor beams in this patch. Fitting a full rack of them the paladin will become a super huggin, able to snare entire fleets. Am I right? <cough>

There's one consolation in all this. The frenchies are now learing about "balance", "oomph" and being told to "adapt." At least we're no longer alone.


Khurrak
Posted - 2007.10.29 09:52:00 - [345]
 

I agree with the learn how to make something that doesnt suck vs signers. first, you pay for what you get, second, the things designed for gunning, and has more cpu than the geddon.

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2007.10.29 10:08:00 - [346]
 

Originally by: Hastur DragonTooth
Originally by: CountDrakula
people serrisly where you all born yesterday, or did you fail to look at the paladin propelry. Ive flown the 8 heat sink geddon when that was allowed and i nnow fly megats, but im sure as hell getting a paladin. Reason is quiet simple. have a good long think about its bonuses people




Wonderful bonus. You'll be able to lock onto people's ships with tractor beams in this patch. Fitting a full rack of them the paladin will become a super huggin, able to snare entire fleets. Am I right? <cough>

There's one consolation in all this. The frenchies are now learing about "balance", "oomph" and being told to "adapt." At least we're no longer alone.




Company is always nice.

Maresalul
Momentum.
The Reckoning.
Posted - 2007.10.29 11:20:00 - [347]
 

/signed

Horus Dark
Posted - 2007.10.29 11:27:00 - [348]
 

yeah lets take a looong look:
PALA:
5% bonus to capacitor capacity per Amarr BS level
2% bonus to stasis webifier velocity factor per Amarr BS level
7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per Marauder level
7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking per Marauder level
Role bonus: 100% bonus to large energy turret damage
Role bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams


Kronos:
5% bonus to large hybrid turret damage per Gallente BS level
2% bonus to stasis webifier velocity factor per Gallente BS level
7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per Marauder level
7.5% bonus to large hybrid turret tracking per Marauder level
Role bonus: 100% bonus to large hybrid turret damage
Role bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams

------
Soooo basicly we traded a 5% dmg bonus for 5% cap bonus while firing only 4 guns..
I am done looking...are you?


Wizzkidy
Posted - 2007.10.29 11:34:00 - [349]
 

Originally by: Horus Dark
yeah lets take a looong look:
PALA:
5% bonus to capacitor capacity per Amarr BS level
2% bonus to stasis webifier velocity factor per Amarr BS level
7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per Marauder level
7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking per Marauder level
Role bonus: 100% bonus to large energy turret damage
Role bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams


Kronos:
5% bonus to large hybrid turret damage per Gallente BS level
2% bonus to stasis webifier velocity factor per Gallente BS level
7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per Marauder level
7.5% bonus to large hybrid turret tracking per Marauder level
Role bonus: 100% bonus to large hybrid turret damage
Role bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams

------
Soooo basicly we traded a 5% dmg bonus for 5% cap bonus while firing only 4 guns..
I am done looking...are you?




Lame isn't it? that amarr have to have a 5% cap bonus and most of the other races get a dmg bonus.

THIS is why Amarr will always be at the bottom - they waste a bonus on ALL there ships!

BobGhengisKhan
Dashavatara
Posted - 2007.10.29 15:55:00 - [350]
 

/signed. 4 years and going

Ronja
noXCorp
Posted - 2007.10.29 16:57:00 - [351]
 

Fix the damn Apoc!

Madla Mafia
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2007.10.29 17:17:00 - [352]
 

Don't model new things after broken things! It's basic common sense!

Dristra
Amarr
Idle Haven
Posted - 2007.10.29 19:10:00 - [353]
 

Originally by: Wizzkidy
Originally by: Horus Dark
yeah lets take a looong look:
PALA:
5% bonus to capacitor capacity per Amarr BS level
2% bonus to stasis webifier velocity factor per Amarr BS level
7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per Marauder level
7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking per Marauder level
Role bonus: 100% bonus to large energy turret damage
Role bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams


Kronos:
5% bonus to large hybrid turret damage per Gallente BS level
2% bonus to stasis webifier velocity factor per Gallente BS level
7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per Marauder level
7.5% bonus to large hybrid turret tracking per Marauder level
Role bonus: 100% bonus to large hybrid turret damage
Role bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams

------
Soooo basicly we traded a 5% dmg bonus for 5% cap bonus while firing only 4 guns..
I am done looking...are you?




Lame isn't it? that amarr have to have a 5% cap bonus and most of the other races get a dmg bonus.

THIS is why Amarr will always be at the bottom - they waste a bonus on ALL there ships!


Actually: cap is not a bad bonus, at least not when the paladin have less base cap than the apoc.

i guess this just shows that lasers need a bonus applied to be good, just like all other weapons. (currently the only "built inn" bonus is the range on the close range weapons, and that is payed for with immense cap need on all lasers, even the frigate and cruiser lasers that suffer from crap range and horrible fittings)

Letifer Deus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.10.29 19:21:00 - [354]
 

Edited by: Letifer Deus on 29/10/2007 19:46:46
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Letifer Deus

yes, it eats up cap like crazy, but you also have to remember that a tachyon abbadon has badass dps. 25% more than a 425 hyperion.


Yeah but 425 has more range.

Funny how people forget about the range when talking about long range hybrids compared to tachs but then bring the issue back when discussing blasters vs pulses.


I've mentioned the range difference on multiple occasions. In fact, if you look a few posts back (of mine) I specifically point it out.

Originally by: Letifer Deus
~24% turret dmg advantage for the arma, and the mega only has a 20% optimal advantage (and a considerable falloff advantage, but I've never put much stock in falloff).


Oh, and if you use navy gamma on the arma and navy AM on the mega, the dps is the same and the arma has a slightly better optimal. And even with gal bs 5, the beams have better tracking (which is fine, it's because of the range difference).

Please, stop posting.


Originally by: Wizzkidy

Lame isn't it? that amarr have to have a 5% cap bonus and most of the other races get a dmg bonus.

THIS is why Amarr will always be at the bottom - they waste a bonus on ALL there ships!

Originally by: Dristra

i guess this just shows that lasers need a bonus applied to be good, just like all other weapons. (currently the only "built inn" bonus is the range on the close range weapons


Really, you waste a cap bonus on all your ships? (No you don't)

Amarr have a moderate built in dmg bonus (I'd guess it's around 10%), just like they have a built in tracking bonus. Should I whine that gallente have to waste a bonus on tracking, while amarr dont? No.Rolling Eyes Also, amarr get tachs, gallente don't get a 500mm rail.

Blind Jhon
Posted - 2007.10.29 19:22:00 - [355]
 

up now maths teach:
amaar battleship = logistic batleship

why we cannot have our megathron yellow iussed???

100% signed yarrr Evil or Very Mad

Letifer Deus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.10.29 19:26:00 - [356]
 

Edited by: Letifer Deus on 29/10/2007 19:33:02
Originally by: Blind Jhon
up now maths teach:
amaar battleship = logistic batleship

why we cannot have our megathron yellow iussed???

100% signed yarrr Evil or Very Mad


I didn't know the arma and abbadon were logistics ships. Rolling Eyes

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2007.10.29 20:41:00 - [357]
 

Originally by: Letifer Deus


Amarr have a moderate built in dmg bonus (I'd guess it's around 10%), just like they have a built in tracking bonus. Should I whine that gallente have to waste a bonus on tracking, while amarr dont? No.Rolling Eyes Also, amarr get tachs, gallente don't get a 500mm rail.


Yes we have a built in bonus. Problem is that bonus doesnt cut it anymore after heatsink stack nerf, 3xeanmII and armor tanking + hp boost. We need something special for this or a damage boost.
Thing is we sacrifice alot for our lasers and frankly we are not compensated for the downsides.

We have less grid left after fitting our lasers compared to others
Our cap drains faster then other races eventhough we have 25% ship bonus to cap use
And we mostly do sad damage to armor and many many are armor tanked and its not really every day you come across a shield tanker that hasnt filled up his EM resist.

Gief compensation, gief oomph. Still waiting.

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2007.10.30 07:50:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: Cleron
You know full well that 4 Tach's is more then enough to bring the Abaddon to her knees in a few short minutes with out additional cap mods (most notably cap boosters). These ships are going to need all the cap they can get to run the extra mods they will be expected to run. Having a ship that consumes roughly the amount of cap with 4 guns that a hybrid user consumes with 8+ guns IS a problem.


Whoever fits their ships without cap mods? That really is not a notion to balance anything off. I run a 3 Tach 5 Megabeam 3HS Abaddon in missions and never have cap problems. So just using 4 Tachs would give me oodles of extra cap. There is NO cap problem on a 4 Tach fit without the silly bonus.

Quote:
Additionally i feel no need to explain further as to why i would prefer the bonus up front as opposed to per lvl. If you actually fly Amarr with any consistency you already know the pain of having to train new ships to lvl 5 (Months of training) just to get that extra 10% cap, and the difference it can make.


You feel no need to further explain = You made yourself look silly by forgeting that Marauders require BS5 and such there is no difference between +10% per BS level and flat +50%...
Also, the abovementioned Abaddon only has Amarr BS 4, and still has no cap problems. I think you have some problems with ship fitting knowledge though Razz

Quote:
I honestly don't care if you can't make as much isk with her as your Abaddon, or Geddon, or CNR. As far as I'm concerned it's irrelevant. There was always going to be one stand out among the group for the mission runners, and it's not the Pally. Just once i would actually like to see a true to god TANKING Amarr ship. We have our Gank Geddon, Our Fleet Abaddon, &... well the less said about the Apoc the better.


Making more isk/time is the one and only thing that makes or breaks ships as high-end mission rides. All my arguments are made with the notions that the Marauders should be those high end mission ships. And looking at the Kronos that is just that, I can't help wishing the others would be similar.

Quote:
I don't think it's that hard to understand why i would like these changes opposed to another dam damage bonus, or why i like the 20km Webber over the tracking bonus. It's different, and something Amarr was meant to be good at that never really eventuated.


Yeah, it is not hard to understand. Because you either don't want the Paladin for missions, know nothing about professional mission running, or don't know how to efficiently fit laserboats for missions. Or all three.

Horus Dark
Posted - 2007.10.30 08:57:00 - [359]
 

Edited by: Horus Dark on 30/10/2007 08:58:05
Guys..stop trying to make the pala look good.
Ill sum it up.

- you are less agile then the kronos.
- you have less drone bay then the kronos.
- You do not want to be in webrange using lasers.
- The other races get a extra turret in comparison to their t1 counterpart. pala does not.
- you trade the %5 dmg bonus of the kronos with 5% cap more cap.

(i used to kronos as comparison cause there bonuses and layout are almost identical.



Alyxa Mahan
Posted - 2007.10.30 10:24:00 - [360]
 

Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Whoever fits their ships without cap mods? That really is not a notion to balance anything off.

But ofcourse it is!
Where you fit cap mods/rigs on your Amarr ships just to run the weapons, the other races can fit other mods/rigs, like, i don't know, damage, tank, EW, PvP stuff, utility...
And if they do also fit those cap mods, that just means they have more energy left for their tank, speed booster or whatever.

Using more than twice the cap for the weapons with nothing in return is a major balancing issue.


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