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Maggot
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.10.20 18:21:00 - [331]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake

It could equally be argued that the POS mechanics give SF and other anti-territoralists the perfect opportunity to knock alliances down a peg of two by destroying their infrastructure.



Rodj, I dont really think you have any experience of POS attacks unless you have been on the side of the blob. It is unlikely that any of the non-territorial groups could take down a decent enemey's POS unless they and their allies were all on holiday for a week.

Unless you seriously screw up - the big guy wins every time.

Revan Neferis
Amarr
Bloodveil
BLOOD EMPIRE
Posted - 2007.10.20 18:22:00 - [332]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Revan Neferis


Your assessment of the situation will be true when we come here perhaps in a few years time with morre than 80% of all rp alliances becoming minin BoBs with 1000+ and capacity and patience and damn will to be joining pos warfares as I am doing now.
Unti than, your opinion simplt expresses and endorses what Jade said, you can't rp with cyno jammers and you need 0.0 ability and capacity to claim peoples sovereignity like any other alliance over there.
enough with daydreams please.


If SF doesn't have the capability to remove an alliance's sovereignty, then ultimately that's SF's problem.

They could:

a) Find some more friends to help them
b) Recruit new members
c) Hire mercenaries

All of those things would help them to compete with the larger alliances. This isn't something that takes years to do, and even if it were, Jericho Fraction has been around for a very long time indeed.


Agreed as you well know I play this way because my own option. Just one detail you are forgetting: people like and enjoys to play different things.
So no, it's not their problem. It's our problem. all of us and ccp as a community.

You want your emperor to play your event things with PIE.
I want my bloody mercs all over causing mayhem as a good sani sabik would do
SF wants their guerrila specialization in optimal ways to have the glory it deserves
CVA wants their poses and stations in place
XX and BB wants their sandbox intact so they can sunday and monday play fake war games
.
.
.

Community. Game. People. Everyone's problem.

Revan Neferis
Amarr
Bloodveil
BLOOD EMPIRE
Posted - 2007.10.20 18:25:00 - [333]
 

Originally by: Maggot
Originally by: Rodj Blake

It could equally be argued that the POS mechanics give SF and other anti-territoralists the perfect opportunity to knock alliances down a peg of two by destroying their infrastructure.



Rodj, I dont really think you have any experience of POS attacks unless you have been on the side of the blob. It is unlikely that any of the non-territorial groups could take down a decent enemey's POS unless they and their allies were all on holiday for a week.

Unless you seriously screw up - the big guy wins every time.



I've been involved on at least 9 poses take downs since the providence wars started. and I can trully say that Rodj have no clue of what it takes to make an operation in this matter. Based on his comments of course.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.10.20 18:26:00 - [334]
 

Edited by: Rodj Blake on 20/10/2007 18:28:19
Originally by: Maggot


Rodj, I dont really think you have any experience of POS attacks unless you have been on the side of the blob. It is unlikely that any of the non-territorial groups could take down a decent enemey's POS unless they and their allies were all on holiday for a week.

Unless you seriously screw up - the big guy wins every time.



For the record, I've been involved with the underdogs a couple of times, the most recent being the fighting against BoB and friends in FSW.

It's true that numbers are vital. However, if RP groups aren't able to get the numbers together to take on the "big boys" then it doesn't automatically follow that the sovereignty mechanics are somehow prejudiced against RPers.


Revan Neferis
Amarr
Bloodveil
BLOOD EMPIRE
Posted - 2007.10.20 18:33:00 - [335]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 20/10/2007 18:28:19
Originally by: Maggot


Rodj, I dont really think you have any experience of POS attacks unless you have been on the side of the blob. It is unlikely that any of the non-territorial groups could take down a decent enemey's POS unless they and their allies were all on holiday for a week.

Unless you seriously screw up - the big guy wins every time.



For the record, I've been involved with the underdogs a couple of times, the most recent being the fighting against BoB and friends in FSW.

It's true that numbers are vital. However, if RP groups aren't able to get the numbers together to take on the "big boys" then it doesn't automatically follow that the sovereignty mechanics are somehow prejudiced against RPers.




You are simply going around the subject after 12 pages. please read the ops post and all that have been discussed here. we passed this at least after the 3rd page.
Not worth to be a broken record, let the thread evolve.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.10.20 18:38:00 - [336]
 

Actually, I was answering a specific point that had been put to me, but never mind...

Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.10.20 18:59:00 - [337]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 20/10/2007 18:28:19
Originally by: Maggot


Rodj, I dont really think you have any experience of POS attacks unless you have been on the side of the blob. It is unlikely that any of the non-territorial groups could take down a decent enemey's POS unless they and their allies were all on holiday for a week.

Unless you seriously screw up - the big guy wins every time.



For the record, I've been involved with the underdogs a couple of times, the most recent being the fighting against BoB and friends in FSW.

It's true that numbers are vital. However, if RP groups aren't able to get the numbers together to take on the "big boys" then it doesn't automatically follow that the sovereignty mechanics are somehow prejudiced against RPers.





A fair point of observation would be that current POS/Sovereignty mechanics are actually extremely biased in favour of defensive land holding alliances. Its not a matter of "getting the numbers together" its a matter of getting "double or triple the numbers together" and then committing to an extremely boring cycle of PVE play before on actually gets to the fleet battles. Just saying.

Niding
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.10.20 19:00:00 - [338]
 

Edited by: Niding on 20/10/2007 19:10:46
Originally by: Maggot
Originally by: Rodj Blake

It could equally be argued that the POS mechanics give SF and other anti-territoralists the perfect opportunity to knock alliances down a peg of two by destroying their infrastructure.



Rodj, I dont really think you have any experience of POS attacks unless you have been on the side of the blob. It is unlikely that any of the non-territorial groups could take down a decent enemey's POS unless they and their allies were all on holiday for a week.

Unless you seriously screw up - the big guy wins every time.



Non territorial entities that comes to mind;

Cruel Intentions and Outbreak.

Both are capable to take on quite a few SOV holding alliances. Its down to goals and desire to keep said space.
That said, I suspect that many of the members of said corp/alliances has had extensive expirience with SOV warfare/holding and has grown bored of it and moved on to pure warfare.

Ive seen how deadly effective Outbreak can be IF they put their mind to it.

Hast (Cruel Intention) is Ex BOB and when I asked him about this topic (pos warfare, and why he left BOB); it was just not fun anymore the game turned into a job etc and was not why he paid subscrption.
Hes not the only ex member of major alliances that has answered the same to said question.

BUT, its NOT about lack of capability (even tho they have a fairly low membership number compared to many of their targets), its about the fact that many entities are not remotely intrested in the space they attack beyond destroying infastructure.

SF/Sani Sabik could do the same, but it doesnt suit their game/rp style and I can completely understand that.

BUT, some ppl enjoy POS warfare. I find fleet warfare fun, and I dont see a problem from a roleplaying perspective about POS's. Empire building encourages POS/Outposts, and Empire building is part of CVAs roleplay.
If that doesnt suit other ppls idea of roleplay...tough luck, but not my problem tbh.

Quithlar Binay
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2007.10.20 19:53:00 - [339]
 

Lyra Garris made very good points. Some of the matters being discussed here are the travails of the elderly; old pilots discussing how to reignite the flame, perhaps. It is at least as important to find and feed the new flames, before they go out.

Cipher7
Posted - 2007.10.20 19:54:00 - [340]
 

Originally by: Tarron Sarek

Just a short comment: what do you expect from players who, in the majority of cases, fail to resist the temptation to throw overboard every bit of aesthetic sense in order to create the fotm most efficient character?


One person wants to be a fairy princess.

Another person wants to be an Achura with max stats.

Who would play an Achura male if it did NOT have uber stats?

The universe needs ugly people too.

Octavinus Augustus
Amarr
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.10.20 19:56:00 - [341]
 

Originally by: Bacchanalian
Stuff I agree with


My point is that if you want to RP according to a fixed set of OoC rules you should stick to Empire wars where game mechanics work in favor of such rules. If you want to RP according to "everything goes" then do so in 0.0.

I think the SF/PIE war some months ago is a good example of this. I know we can argue from here to next sunday over who was right, who was wrong, who won, who lost and why. The fact remains that SF declared war and PIE more or less decided not to fight the war. The game mechanics of empire made it virtually impossible for SF to impact on PIE given those circumstances. I'm not saying either way is right or wrong or one style is better than the other. Just that with your RP style you picked the wrong target.

The game mechanics makes it possible for those who wish to RP according to some OoC rules to do so in Empire and those who wish to RP in the big sandbox can do so in 0.0. Rather than having half the RP community scream "You RP wrong" at the other half and having the other half screaming the same thing back, why not accept things and then interact as far as we can? Why not make RP inclusive rather than exclusive?

Stimulus, SF, PIE, U'K and so on are currently empire based, but are interacting quite well with 0.0 while they also have some element of control of the environment they wish to live in. If they tire of their involvement here they can always leave and find something else to do.

What I'm saying is that with the RP style you (and I)favor you should be gunnning for the entities of 0.0 rather than the empire ones, much like you're doing right now.

Personally I have spent much time in PIE and enjoying it greatly. I came to realize however, that I'd like to play in the big sandbox and so I joined CVA. It's neither more or less fun, it's a different sort of fun.

Why does it have to be wrong that EvE can accomodate both playing styles?

Cipher7
Posted - 2007.10.20 20:09:00 - [342]
 


%90 of the playerbase agree that POS warfare makes Eve feel like a job.

The fact that POS warfare sucks is not an RP issue, it is an overall game issue.

As for the guy who left BoB to join CI, doesn't CI get paid to take down POS too?

It seems to me like POS warfare simply can't be avoided.

Niding
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.10.20 20:21:00 - [343]
 

Originally by: Cipher7

%90 of the playerbase agree that POS warfare makes Eve feel like a job.

The fact that POS warfare sucks is not an RP issue, it is an overall game issue.

As for the guy who left BoB to join CI, doesn't CI get paid to take down POS too?

It seems to me like POS warfare simply can't be avoided.


The main difference between those two entities with regards to POS;

Sov Holding alliance (owns POSs) has to defend and fuel POS's around the clock.

PVP outfits might conduct POS warfare, but they arent tied down due to own POS assets.

Basically gives you ALOT more freedom of movement and ability to do warfare at time of your choosing.
POS/Sov holders are open for attacks 23 hours a day, every day.
If enough ppl in alliance takes a vacation, your SOV is history very quickly.

POSs are nice for defense, but requires alot of work maintenance/isk wise. So major PROs and CONs.

This is a derailment of the OP tho Wink Sorry bout that Revan, just wanted to answer his question.

Bacchanalian
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2007.10.20 20:22:00 - [344]
 

Originally by: Octavinus Augustus
stuff


Well, the only other thing I'll add is that there are ways to hurt an entity that is huddling down and refusing to fight just as well as you can shooting them in space, as SF's Mito campaign proved. Psyops combined with low morale on your enemy's side can be used effectively to take apart an alliance, often moreso than actually shooting them will. If the leadership of an alliance isn't leading, or isn't in touch with their member base and makes decisions based off of their own personal opinions without regard for their members, it's quite easy to help that alliance shed members like my cats shed fur in summertime. And while not as entirely exciting as shooting people out of ships in space, it's still quite fun for some of us to have long IC discussions with various members in an enemy alliance and to see them possibly as a result of ideas you've planted in their heads lead a rebellion and leave days later taking dozens with them.

That didn't happen with PIE, and I can only assume that was because the leadership was more in touch with its members and the decisions were somewhat agreed upon. Warfare in EVE, as elsewhere, comes down to a lot more than just blowing up a few ships on the battlefield and having better numbers at the end of the day than the other guy. Sometimes you need to inflict more harm than just blowing up battleships. And other times, the mere fact that you've taken your opponent out of space and forced them out of a region is a success unto itself. Which is why it's important to have clearly defined and attainable goals in every campaign, and everything you do in the context of that campaign should be directly tied to advancing and achieving said goals more than it is merely tied to questions of numbers.

As for POSes, I'd suggest that even smaller entities can have an impact, it just takes more creativity than hoping to outblob or outgun a clearly larger opponent. Not to mention that driving your opponent to take down a POS on their own for financial reasons, frustration reasons, or because they're leaving the alliance in question as a result of your actions is far more rewarding.

Dionisius
Gallente
the muppets
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2007.10.20 20:52:00 - [345]
 

A good read and i must say one thing, i loved everysingle minute i was there playing the evil pirate in Providence with Legi0n against CVA and stuff, i felt kinda the undercovered operative and i still rp a bit about that.

One point i think you missed, we only stop enjoying the game and rp'ing if we allow it ourselves.
I always look at SF, Sani Sabik and sorts a bit distantly like you are corps playing in another "level",while i am conscious we are all on the same server and RP'ing is a great part of EvE.

In sum it should be given more credit because i think you folks contribute alot to this game and i even dare saying you do it a bit more than the conventional 1000 man alliance that Jade spoke of.

I meen you have fun in a 1000 peeps alliance, sure, but its not the same, its not the guys that were having fun tackling, or the heavy hitter wing, its the 1000 gray mass of undistinguished people.

I would say remove POS's and leave only outposts but then again i know its too much of a lunatic ideia.

Just to finish, i wish the RP comunity had more members with the quality that the ones now present have, at least i enjoy very much reading everyones exploits.

Mari Onette
Amarr
Equilibrium.
Posted - 2007.10.20 21:18:00 - [346]
 

Originally by: Revan Neferis

*Some insults and stuff*

Do you think The Star Fraction would care about putting up poses? - they are anti territorialis
Veto? or maybe Sani Sabik, a religious Temple full of priests hauling pos fuels....

*more insults*


Thanks for proving my point.

If you don't want to hold space, quit *****ing about posses, and not being on the territorial maps. It's not like having territory is essential to having fun in the game.

I can completely see a temple full of Priests hauling POS fuel to keep their space temple protected from invading pirates and malcontents. Windows looking out into a nebula or a planet would be so much more majestic then stained glass don't you think? Not to mention many priests are for doing an honest days hard work. The best way to find god is through suffering don't you think?

I suppose priests probably wouldn't be very good at defending their space temple with force, but there are other ways to prevent your pos from being blown up.

Quit complaining that the game doesn't work the way you want it to, and start playing the game in the way you want.

Revan Neferis
Amarr
Bloodveil
BLOOD EMPIRE
Posted - 2007.10.20 21:31:00 - [347]
 

Originally by: Mari Onette
Not to mention many priests are for doing an honest days hard work. The best way to find god is through suffering don't you think?




Honst days of Hard work? Finding God? Sani Sabik? Riiiight....
I don't need to insult you really. I think you did a good job yourself.


Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
Posted - 2007.10.20 22:21:00 - [348]
 

Edited by: Wild Rho on 20/10/2007 22:25:45
I've had this idea for a while and have no idea how feasible it could be but what the hell, this thread seems to be the most appropriate place to post it so here goes.

The major factions don't really have any life to them, pretty much all of their actions are driven by prescripted story elements that are not particularly flexible.

So...

How about CCP assign small teams of people (of maybe 2 to 3 people per team) to "lead" each major faction. These people basically become the heads of these particular factions, setting agendas, goals, missions and reactions etc independantly of any pre scripted story lines.
Here's the important bit: These teams do not deliberatly co-operate and co-rdinate events with each other but stage their own independant events using the players as a medium. However each team is also allowed to use other players for espionage to try and find out what events other factions are setting up, they could then potentially create their own events designed to oppose that factions event (confused yet?).
Also no team is privvy to what other teams are doing unless they find out via player espionage or other similar means.

If the above sounds a bit messy here's a little example of what could potentially happen...

Let's say there are two teams, Team A runs the Gallente Federation, Team B runs the Caldari State.
Team B decide to run their own story of a research project one of the Caldari Corporations are involved in. They post some news items about it now and then among other events within the State.
They decide (as part of the story) to stage an event where some components for this research project need to be moved from System A to system B. A few days before the event is due they announce this to some corporations Team B feel have proved themselves loyal enough to the state and so a simple event is set.

Team A have bribed some members of corporations apparently loyal to the Caldari State to feed them information about significant events taking place. One or two members get greedy and pass on the details of Team Bs event to Team A for a small reward.
Now aware of this event taking place they stage their own event which will involve sending players to intercept and destroy/capture the cargo.


The outcome of the now combined events is purely down to the players involved. The reactions of each faction to the outcome is determined independantly by each faction team with their own announcements and maybe follow up events etc.
What this does is give NPC empires some genuine life and dynamics while still allowing the players to become more involved without everything being too heavily scripted.
There is also the chance for more interesting faction related news with each team being able to produce their own biased news reports, statements and reactions to other event's and announcements.

There are some downsides that have to be accounted for though.

- Desire to "win". This sort of system is competative by nature and there is a risk of team members becoming too engrossed with making sure their faction is more successful than others. This would require careful monitoring from an independant group within CCP as well.
- Heavy on man-power. This would require a reasonable number of people to create truely independant teams and it is questionable whether volunteers would be a suitable means to satisfy this.
- Breaking character. Each team would have a heafty responsibilty to ensure they always stay in character for the factions they represent and do not end up emulating their own personal prefernce for what the faction "should" be in their mind.

This post may be a little messy as it turns out it's harder to write down clearly the idea I have in my head but what the hell.

EDIT: Cleaned up the post a bit.

Arvo Henderson
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.10.20 22:37:00 - [349]
 

Originally by: Nuyan Zahedi
Originally by: Arvo Henderson

Thoughts? Stuff like that should allow to distract attention from sovereignty, which is currently, the only thing that "matters" as in "everybody can see it for themselves and it's covered by game mechanics and not house rules".



And then you (or atleast your CEO) complain about POS game-mechanics being anti-RP? Ehr, game-mechanics barely can get more silly RP-wise than victory-conditions and space-'superiority' based on kill-ratio.. I also highly doubt CCP would make killboards of corporations public.


I do personally complain about POS mechanics because of how boring and dreadful can those mechanics be. I can't see why game mechanics enriching and allowing to avoid metagaming as in "not logging on", wars can be boring (oh well, maybe if some stupid stuff like mining moons or whoring complexes is required).

I wonder if some CCP guys would care to spill the beans about this. To make the point clearer:

1) Entity A declares war onto Entity B.
2) Entity A declares his victory conditions (Space Supremacy, for instance).
3) Entity B has the choice to: a) back-off and surrender b) bring it on.
4) As war is renewed, entity B has the chance to surrender and entity A to declare the war over and the victory level to be asserted. In the latter case, entity A doesn't win the war automatically, there's one week of time for Entity B to turn the tables.
5) One week later, victory levels are asserted and communicated to the parties. A nice entry into the corp history is added, declaring who was the war declared against and the victory level achieved.

How can that be boring? Obviously this could be as well a "house rule" instead of a game mechanic. But then we need an impartial umpire to broker the whole process (with access to in-game killboards).


Casserina Leshrac
Amarr
Ebon Seraph
The Dominion Empire
Posted - 2007.10.20 22:40:00 - [350]
 

Actually Wild Rho it is not a bad idea. However, each team would have to deal with the complexity of each Empire.

For example the Amarr Empire have several houses, each vying for power. So for two people to RP the events internally within this faction has enough drama for anyone to pull from without worrying about what is going in the rest of the cluster.

Especially with the topic of an empty throne on Amarr Prime.

Of course the other factions could have their own internal politics as well. IMO that is what such teams should be concentrating on.

Another team could worry about the "external politics" between the Empires.

Just my two cents.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.10.20 23:57:00 - [351]
 

Originally by: Arvo Henderson

Space Supremacy
...
victory level to be asserted



cant be done in a useful way without lots of human oversight as you cant just look at the raw numbers to determine who won a fight.




Karn Mithralia
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.10.21 00:06:00 - [352]
 

Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 21/10/2007 01:21:50

On POS mechanics.

I do not think it really relates directly to RP - its damn hard for any of the tight-knit smaller pvp entities in eve to achieve anything lasting with POS warfare.

My personal issue with it is much of it isn't fun. It too often means getting up very early, going to bed very late, and for many players that has serious consequences in RL. It would be nice to be able to compete and not break my marriage. Laughing

However, I am also not convinced a lessor force cannot win against a larger. Damn hard I agree, but impossible I don't think. I have seen MC at work taking apart much larger fleets and then once they dismantled them move on to the structures.

I think there is a heap of untested smaller POS actions that are yet to be proven in the field with the last few months POS changes, and I think up coming additions of black-ops stuff will enhance this.

Finally consider, there is a massive advantage to not running POS, one U'K has been feeling the benefits of. Anyone who has fought us at length knows we're famous for using t1 frigs/cruisers. Those who have see us fight of late though will notice a massive improvement in ships we field. It comes down to one simple fact - we are no longer blowing billions of isk on POS fuel.

But again, this is really off-topic to me cos I don't really feel that POS mechanics is crippling 'RP' specifically, just that it cripples the ability of any of many smaller sovereign (as in not lackeys of someone else) groups to make meaningful inroads to their opponents POS network.

And for those who say - then gather the blob, recruit your men etc. Sure, its the obvious answer, but as I said earlier that play style is not for many, RPers or not.

Kazuma Saruwatari
Posted - 2007.10.21 03:58:00 - [353]
 

There's a reason why I've kept off the Chatsubo ever since I've heard of it's existence a year ago.

Its the same point our ISD poster has made (sorry, memory leak in my brain atmSad), and I rather not repeat it myself.

Keerie Jeanmot
Gallente
Bloodveil
Posted - 2007.10.21 07:38:00 - [354]
 

Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
There's a reason why I've kept off the Chatsubo ever since I've heard of it's existence a year ago.

Its the same point our ISD poster has made (sorry, memory leak in my brain atmSad), and I rather not repeat it myself.


I don't like the place either. No wonder that the good players have left.

Octavinus Augustus
Amarr
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.10.21 07:56:00 - [355]
 

I've been thinking more or less along the same lines as Wild Rho, but i think it's a rather hard thing to do.

I'd suggest a few changes though:

1) Make it so that people with a very high standing to a given NPC corporation (8.0?) are invited on the "board of directors" where they can make certain executive decisions for the NPC corp.

2) Make it impossible for a pilot to be on the board of more than one NPC corp.

3) Make it so players, corps and alliances can "sign up" with a given NPC corp if the have a positive standing (2.0?) to the corp. This would negate any sales taxes etc for the corp stations (you could modify the sales tax on other stations to 2% if you're worried about the isk sink).

4)Give each NPC corp a "belligerence" standing that allows it's board a certain range of possible decisions. IE the Brutor tribe is actively pursuing hostilities to the Amarr so they may be more aggressive than certain other NPC corps.

5) Make the most belligerent NPC corps capable or wardeccing NPC corps and alliances aligned with the opposition while most others might not be able to do so.

6) Give the NPC corp a certain amount of decision points per day depending on it's size. These are hoarded until spent by the board.

7) Give the board an option of deciding "Offensive action" aganist it's enemies and assigning NPC corp assets to those actions - assigning NPC corp "rats" to a given enterprise.

So a conceivable scenario would be something like this: CVA aligns with Zoar and Sons while U'K aligns with the Brutor tribe - let's imagine each entity gets "control of the board" and can dominate the NPC decisions. Brutor + allies then wardecs Zoar + allies. Each corp gets a certain amount of "decision points" every day and can assign then to various tasks.

Zoar's board decide to use Zoar's points to create defensive style patrols against pirates (-5.0 sec) and enemies of the realm in Misaba. These patrols are expensive (decision point wise) but can be called up on short notice to deal with threats. If this is done, it allows small gangs to get NPC "rats" assigned as fighters for a very limited time (30 minutes). rats assigned to this style of operations can be no larger than cruisers.

Brutor's board decide to be more aggressive. The plan "Offensive patrols" against their enemies. The board decide on a date and time (at least 48 hours from decision to launch of operation). A mail goes out to all forces allied with Brutor - Patrol to be launched from XX station at YY date, come join us. When the patrol sets off, NPC rats are again assigned in the same way as fighters to the patrol. Rats would then be assigned for say 2 or 3 hours. Rats can be up to BC size.

Should it be possible to even spend A LOT of decision points and declare an "invasion" giving a number of bs rats for an extended period of time?

You could give each diplomatic action (war dec, war lapse etc) and each NPC rat a certain "Decision point" cost, and each op type a decision point multiplier.

Could this idea be abused? Is it a reasonable idea for getting more people to actively RP? Am I being crazy?

This should probably have been posted on the suggestions thread, but the debate got runnning here with Wild Rho's idea, so I put it here.

Revan Neferis
Amarr
Bloodveil
BLOOD EMPIRE
Posted - 2007.10.21 09:14:00 - [356]
 

Originally by: Octavinus Augustus
I've been thinking more or less along the same lines as Wild Rho, but i think it's a rather hard thing to do.

I'd suggest a few changes though:

1) Make it so that people with a very high standing to a given NPC corporation (8.0?) are invited on the "board of directors" where they can make certain executive decisions for the NPC corp.

2) Make it impossible for a pilot to be on the board of more than one NPC corp.

3) Make it so players, corps and alliances can "sign up" with a given NPC corp if the have a positive standing (2.0?) to the corp. This would negate any sales taxes etc for the corp stations (you could modify the sales tax on other stations to 2% if you're worried about the isk sink).

4)Give each NPC corp a "belligerence" standing that allows it's board a certain range of possible decisions. IE the Brutor tribe is actively pursuing hostilities to the Amarr so they may be more aggressive than certain other NPC corps.

5) Make the most belligerent NPC corps capable or wardeccing NPC corps and alliances aligned with the opposition while most others might not be able to do so.

6) Give the NPC corp a certain amount of decision points per day depending on it's size. These are hoarded until spent by the board.

7) Give the board an option of deciding "Offensive action" aganist it's enemies and assigning NPC corp assets to those actions - assigning NPC corp "rats" to a given enterprise.

So a conceivable scenario would be something like this: CVA aligns with Zoar and Sons while U'K aligns with the Brutor tribe - let's imagine each entity gets "control of the board" and can dominate the NPC decisions. Brutor + allies then wardecs Zoar + allies. Each corp gets a certain amount of "decision points" every day and can assign then to various tasks.

Zoar's board decide to use Zoar's points to create defensive style patrols against pirates (-5.0 sec) and enemies of the realm in Misaba. These patrols are expensive (decision point wise) but can be called up on short notice to deal with threats. If this is done, it allows small gangs to get NPC "rats" assigned as fighters for a very limited time (30 minutes). rats assigned to this style of operations can be no larger than cruisers.

Brutor's board decide to be more aggressive. The plan "Offensive patrols" against their enemies. The board decide on a date and time (at least 48 hours from decision to launch of operation). A mail goes out to all forces allied with Brutor - Patrol to be launched from XX station at YY date, come join us. When the patrol sets off, NPC rats are again assigned in the same way as fighters to the patrol. Rats would then be assigned for say 2 or 3 hours. Rats can be up to BC size.

Should it be possible to even spend A LOT of decision points and declare an "invasion" giving a number of bs rats for an extended period of time?

You could give each diplomatic action (war dec, war lapse etc) and each NPC rat a certain "Decision point" cost, and each op type a decision point multiplier.

Could this idea be abused? Is it a reasonable idea for getting more people to actively RP? Am I being crazy?

This should probably have been posted on the suggestions thread, but the debate got runnning here with Wild Rho's idea, so I put it here.


Without entering details, the whole system of npc + standings would have to change if something like this could be applicable. As we're talking about rp, just a small example, Revan has +9.2 with court chamberlain. Makes any sense to imagine a proposal like this passing through without full re-evaluation?
It's known that npc standings never worked in compatibility to rp.

Ethidium Bromide
Amarr
ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.10.21 09:31:00 - [357]
 

Originally by: Revan Neferis
It's known that npc standings never worked in compatibility to rp.

oh they do! i can spawn minmatar faction police all day!
also the 'enemy has entered our space' message is plain awesome!

ok maybe just two very minor things but they make me enjoy my slaverscum life even moreWink

Revan Neferis
Amarr
Bloodveil
BLOOD EMPIRE
Posted - 2007.10.21 12:59:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: Ethidium Bromide
Originally by: Revan Neferis
It's known that npc standings never worked in compatibility to rp.

oh they do! i can spawn minmatar faction police all day!
also the 'enemy has entered our space' message is plain awesome!

ok maybe just two very minor things but they make me enjoy my slaverscum life even moreWink


I'm sure ccp would love more clients like you. satisfaction guaranteed! Very Happy

Ethidium Bromide
Amarr
ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.10.21 13:26:00 - [359]
 

Originally by: Revan Neferis
Originally by: Ethidium Bromide
Originally by: Revan Neferis
It's known that npc standings never worked in compatibility to rp.

oh they do! i can spawn minmatar faction police all day!
also the 'enemy has entered our space' message is plain awesome!

ok maybe just two very minor things but they make me enjoy my slaverscum life even moreWink


I'm sure ccp would love more clients like you. satisfaction guaranteed! Very Happy


i'm easy to pleaseVery Happy

maybe an enperor or two now and again....
ah you know, standard amarr whineugh

Roxelana
Amarr
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2007.10.21 13:28:00 - [360]
 

Originally by: Octavinus Augustus
As for the idea of xenophobic racists not accepting outsiders into their ranks that is simply your take on a given situation. I could point to the Roman Empire as a Real life example of the contrary: About half the Roman Army were made up of mercenaries from various allied states - people who did not have Roman citizenship but who might recieve it upon discharge from the army.


I'm aware of that - I've studied history, too, and quite a lot of it. The question in this context is whether or not the Roman Empire is a good analogy for the Amarr Empire. In some aspects it is, in others perhaps not. As for the Amarr, I believe their xenophobia has a biological racist component which the Romans didn't have to that extent. But it is true that even in the Third Reich, Ukrainians and other volunteers of "lesser blood" (according to the state ideology) were allowed into the ranks of the army as the losses of the Germans increased.

However, in both cases (Roman Empire and the Third Reich), these were pragmatic measures. The allies were not regarded as equals. And I believe that an Amarr who is role-played consistent with the prime fiction wouldn't regard other races as his full equals, either. So pilots from other races in an Amarr corp or alliance would have to be role-played as slaves, or mercenaries, or some sort of "lesser" volunteer. The question is how many people are willing to do that, and how happy they would be about it.

The point I wanted to make, relevant to the current discussion, is this: as a role-player, you are always going to have certain restrictions that non-RP'ers don't have, as long as you are trying to stay consistent with the prime fiction. At the very least, you have to come up with elaborate explanations of why you do this or that. So no matter how you spin it, at the end of the day you are going to work under different, more difficult parameters.


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