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GoGo Yubari
Veto.
Posted - 2007.10.19 12:33:00 - [271]
 

Edited by: GoGo Yubari on 19/10/2007 12:35:13
Originally by: Avon

You don't need the game to help you role play - it all happens in your head.
Pen & paper rpgs have, let me think, pens and, um, paper .. oh and dice .. hardly things that will draw you in to a fantasy world full of rich texture and diversity.


Uhh, no. RPGs have game mechanics (which of course Eve has as well) for a reason. They facilitate certain types of play.

What you're saying is that you could just sit around a fire telling stories to each other? Yes, well theoretically you could, but my experience tells me that the role-playing stories that come out when there's carefully thought out, purposeful mechanics in place, are much better.

This is currently a somewhat hot topic in the RPG industry, actually. Old school games were created with quite simplistic mindsets, because the whole thing was new. That's why groups tend to get a whole heap of near dysfunctional and incoherent play out of them. Current game designs understand the medium much better and have designed mechanics to facilitate interesting play.

Example, classic D&D is at best about killing monsters and taking their loot, while Dogs in the Vineyard is about stories where morality issues play a central role - both of those are resultant of the game mechanics found in the games. There's certainly nothing wrong with role-playing either, but you have to understand that design choices have resulted in vastly different games.

While I'm not necessarily implying CCP should look at new school RPGs for inspiration (though, in all honesty, they and anyone directly or tangentially related to role-playing game design should), I'm just saying that design matters.

Revan Neferis
Amarr
Bloodveil
BLOOD EMPIRE
Posted - 2007.10.19 12:45:00 - [272]
 

Edited by: Revan Neferis on 19/10/2007 12:48:17
Originally by: Stavros
Post ends here.

Stavros


Says who? The man that made one of the most ridiculous presentation of rp community publicy at eve tv.

Full respect for your alliance and people inside. But you shouldn't be even near this thread of any rp discussion.

Nuyan Zahedi
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.10.19 12:49:00 - [273]
 

Originally by: Arvo Henderson
Originally by: Archbishop

1. Be a jerk and Archie won't associate with you.

2. Do OOC stuff like hacking forums and voice chat and Archie won't associate with you.

3. Be a griefer trying to wipe out entire RP corps and Archie won't associate with you.

4. Do corp thefts and dubious tactics like using alts to offline POS towers and Archie won't associate with you.



Now to the quote. I wholeheartedly agree with respect to 1) and 2). But I completely disagree with points 3) and 4).

Why is it wrong to wipe out RP corps? I mean, what's wrong with say, the Amarrian paramilitaries completely and utterly destroying, say, Ushra'Khan or Electus Matari. What's wrong with the Star Fraction destroying an empire-loyal (or small 0.0) pigdog redoubt? What's the point then? Endless ritualistic warfare? Come on - we aren't New Guinea pre-industrial tribesmen who actually need to practice it as a way to keep their societies healthy. Is it wrong to declare wars and force people to surrender by extinction? Please note that there is no way to prove in this game that you have defeated another entity bar: 1) public announcement announcing defeat or 2) annihilation by having that entity to dissolve.

And about 4). Yeah it hurts, both IC and OOC. But who will doubt that one of the major events in this game was Istvaan Shogaatsu's heist against Imperial Dreams? That single event makes look childish most of our current and past efforts towards RP. That was some serious roleplaying there.

The bottom line. Almost everybody in this game wants to play the good guy (with the notable exception of Revan):

* The Star Fraction wants to liberate space and crush authority.
* The Amarr Paramilitaries want to renew from inside the Amarrian Empire and bring it to a new Golden Age.
* etc.

We all are the 'good guys' riding our respective high white horses. But there can only be a "good guy " right, can't it?


I think it's fairly easily explainable. People play this game for fun and there's a difference between IC'ly wanting to completely and utterly destroy EM/U'K and wanting to do that OOC'ly. And that really doesn't mean we hold our fire when we can make painful blow. If CVA for example has been busy for months building a titan, U'K really doesn't hold their fire when they have a good chance to blow it up, I think they probably may be even more dedicated than A.A.A and the russians in blowing the damn thing up.

And 3 & 4 apply to any corporation/alliance really. I think 'exploiting' game-mechanics and metagaming with alts, spies that just lurk through Corp Mail, log-on traps etc etc is lame. And so is bragging with "lol, their number of members is dropping" during a war (which was funnily enough because of our CEO that did an cleaning inactive members for the first time in years). Those are things I consider as lame and I'd rather avoid that kind of players too.

I mean, as a corporation you can do stuff as 3 & 4 just because CCP allows you, but that also means a lot of people will dislike you for it and rather ignore your corporation. I find that pretty logical. Complaining about this is like a goon whining about about not being liked and respected by the rest of Eve.

Nuyan Zahedi
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.10.19 12:51:00 - [274]
 

Edited by: Nuyan Zahedi on 19/10/2007 12:59:26
Edited by: Nuyan Zahedi on 19/10/2007 12:51:43
And during that whole war with SF there just was some hatred in the air and then I personally at least rather look for some fresh air and play there. I, as a player, kind of believe in "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." and when in was playing WoW for example I never really felt like corpsecamping the one that just corpsecamped me, I'd rather move on than lowering me to that. Or perhaps that isn't a very good example, but this is partly why during that whole war I personally rather go shoot some minnies instead of SF. But well, I think there has been written and argued more than enough about this and after writing this I wonder if it'd have been better if I leave this out or not since this is pretty offtopic. I'm sure not everyone in PIE feels the same about this too actually.

And honestly. The whole Istvaan story is one of the things that lured me into Eve, I think it was Ubiqou Seraph which was Aegis Militia related and not Imperial Dreams though. ;) I find stuff as this to be very fascinating aswell.

And proof of victory. Well, many times in the real world the word "victory" in wars is often rather questionable as well and the beauty of Eve is that it's the same. Just look at CAOD and all arguing there. And then in Empire space it can be hard to force a foe to fight when they don't want to

Originally by: Arvo Henderson
The bottom line. Almost everybody in this game wants to play the good guy (with the notable exception of Revan):

* The Star Fraction wants to liberate space and crush authority.
* The Amarr Paramilitaries want to renew from inside the Amarrian Empire and bring it to a new Golden Age.
* etc.

We all are the 'good guys' riding our respective high white horses. But there can only be a "good guy " right, can't it?


You seriously consider arrogant ammarians that are full of double-standards and keep slaves to be good guys? Wow, PIE propaganda seems to work haha. There's a difference between a bastard of a character and the player behind it. Perhaps some of these Amarr Paramilitaries just claim to be so righteous and God-fearing just to push their own agenda forward? Things often aren't as black and white as they sometimes seem.

Originally by: Stavros
Nothing went wrong with roleplay in eve and nothing has changed since the start of the game. Roleplay was never given a chance, since the game went live. The only roleplayers in eve are people who for whatever reason choose to impose self crippling rules and limits apon themselves and retreat to what in effect is a game within a game. The BIGGEST problem with RP in eve, is and will always be, that roleplaying and doing well within eve are two mutally exclusive choices that a character must choose between.


Nonsense. But I think that's because of our idea of "Roleplay" is completely different.

Stavros
Amarr
The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.10.19 22:57:00 - [275]
 

Edited by: Stavros on 19/10/2007 22:59:46
Originally by: Revan Neferis
Edited by: Revan Neferis on 19/10/2007 12:48:17
Says who? The man that made one of the most ridiculous presentation of rp community publicy at eve tv.

Full respect for your alliance and people inside. But you shouldn't be even near this thread of any rp discussion.


Roleplay is many things to many people, my views were my own personal opinions on it within EVE and as such are incapable of being incorrect. Aside from this fact, I recieved more interesting and majoritively positive comments about my little RP diatribe than I have done for all my EVE TV ass hattery combined.

I do not presume that my gaming style is the only way to play eve, so please don't presume that yours is I guess...

I think whatever you want to do about roleplay in EVE, you have to accept that unless you find roleplay its own reward, you will ultimately feel slightly unfulfilled as EVE itself won't reward you for following this path, which is a damn shame in my not so humble opinion.



Ta xxx

Yuyuko Saigyouji
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.10.19 23:23:00 - [276]
 

from the op: "Do we even know who the combat aces in Goonswarm or BoB or RA even are anymore?"

yes its me im the combat ace in goonswarm YARRRR!!Cool

Kornel
Minmatar
Alfa Corporation
SOLAR FLEET
Posted - 2007.10.19 23:43:00 - [277]
 

my 42 cents... reply to starting post

Other games needs RP to fill the emptiness behind cool graphic and avatar dances...

EVE have not... EVE is TOO real. No need to fantasy, just play.. just survive and win!

Revan Neferis
Amarr
Bloodveil
BLOOD EMPIRE
Posted - 2007.10.19 23:45:00 - [278]
 

Originally by: Stavros
Edited by: Stavros on 19/10/2007 22:59:46
Originally by: Revan Neferis
Edited by: Revan Neferis on 19/10/2007 12:48:17
Says who? The man that made one of the most ridiculous presentation of rp community publicy at eve tv.

Full respect for your alliance and people inside. But you shouldn't be even near this thread of any rp discussion.


Roleplay is many things to many people, my views were my own personal opinions on it within EVE and as such are incapable of being incorrect. Aside from this fact, I recieved more interesting and majoritively positive comments about my little RP diatribe than I have done for all my EVE TV ass hattery combined.

I do not presume that my gaming style is the only way to play eve, so please don't presume that yours is I guess...

I think whatever you want to do about roleplay in EVE, you have to accept that unless you find roleplay its own reward, you will ultimately feel slightly unfulfilled as EVE itself won't reward you for following this path, which is a damn shame in my not so humble opinion.



Ta xxx


Than I suggest with my humble opinion that you speak about the subject presented instead of personal attacks to the op, a person that has done more to the rp world than most of the groupd together.
Regarding my style of role play, it has not only fulfilled my own expectantions but as well, influenced and involved people that has nothing to do with role play, as the wallets of your own alliance and corp members, for example as well nown fact.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2007.10.19 23:55:00 - [279]
 

Edited by: Cailais on 19/10/2007 23:55:46
Originally by: Revan Neferis
Originally by: Stavros
Edited by: Stavros on 19/10/2007 22:59:46
Originally by: Revan Neferis
Edited by: Revan Neferis on 19/10/2007 12:48:17
Says who? The man that made one of the most ridiculous presentation of rp community publicy at eve tv.

Full respect for your alliance and people inside. But you shouldn't be even near this thread of any rp discussion.


Roleplay is many things to many people, my views were my own personal opinions on it within EVE and as such are incapable of being incorrect. Aside from this fact, I recieved more interesting and majoritively positive comments about my little RP diatribe than I have done for all my EVE TV ass hattery combined.

I do not presume that my gaming style is the only way to play eve, so please don't presume that yours is I guess...

I think whatever you want to do about roleplay in EVE, you have to accept that unless you find roleplay its own reward, you will ultimately feel slightly unfulfilled as EVE itself won't reward you for following this path, which is a damn shame in my not so humble opinion.



Ta xxx


Than I suggest with my humble opinion that you speak about the subject presented instead of personal attacks to the op, a person that has done more to the rp world than most of the groupd together.
Regarding my style of role play, it has not only fulfilled my own expectantions but as well, influenced and involved people that has nothing to do with role play, as the wallets of your own alliance and corp members, for example as well nown fact.



Arguments regarding the merits of 'success' in EVE, whether they be based around RP or non-RP styles are likely to be as circular as arguments over PVP vs PVE styles of play.

The argument will go no where as both sides are basing their experience and measurement of 'success' from their own individual stand point. Accept that you have differing points of view and criteria for what is succesful and move on wards.

If however you feel the need for notoriety, fame or infamy then the irony is that both Revan and Stavros have it in spades; your both well known to elements of the community so you've little more to prove.

C.


Revan Neferis
Amarr
Bloodveil
BLOOD EMPIRE
Posted - 2007.10.20 00:40:00 - [280]
 

Originally by: Cailais
Arguments regarding the merits of 'success' in EVE, whether they be based around RP or non-RP styles are likely to be as circular as arguments over PVP vs PVE styles of play.

The argument will go no where as both sides are basing their experience and measurement of 'success' from their own individual stand point. Accept that you have differing points of view and criteria for what is succesful and move on wards.

If however you feel the need for notoriety, fame or infamy then the irony is that both Revan and Stavros have it in spades; your both well known to elements of the community so you've little more to prove.

C.




A little bit of clarification here. My issue with Stavros is regarding his personal reference to a player. Other than that, I think somehow we hold same standards regarding actions at space + role play. Mage hats and pen and papper little stories at IGS doesn't make eve what it is and I think the group he targeted with his words were well deserved. In any way and form I endorse the sandbox figurative elitism of the pretend to be world here.
Let this be clear in this regard.

Doppleganger
Minmatar
Band of Builders Inc.
Sodalitas XX
Posted - 2007.10.20 02:02:00 - [281]
 

Ok I got to admit ..... as always a copied or orginal post from Jade almost tires me out just reading it alone so I didn't cover all 10 pages of this thread.

Sry if something like this was posted in those previous 10 pages of threads but I don't think CCP's changes can stifle the RP in this game unless its something like a quake in space and I don't see that.

I for one have decided to Minmatar since beta and until CCP makes it that logging on to die every few mins because the race I choose to fly.... RP lives here.

Even though I am not in any of those RP alliances doesn't mean I don't cheer and boo when they do make news no matter their size or ship types. Most ppl in this game I believe like the RP element in EVE to a point. In my corp and alliance alone I hear voices from all sides of RP stance when the RP alliances make news.

If only using large #'s will make news today then there has to be a better way to spread the news or better yet figure a way to make it. A small dedicated group fighting for their idea will always make news or better yet alot of respect from EVE community.

After all if you choose an RP path write it as you wish... CCP doesnt have to do it all. As long as EVE is a spaceships in space game they cannot write all the RP its still up to the players to write a good chunk of it themselves. Difficult or not doing RP should not be easy... cause not everyone will follow the same path. Doesnt mean any less RP.



Cadela Fria
Amarr
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2007.10.20 02:11:00 - [282]
 

Originally by: Revan Neferis
Originally by: Cadela Fria
In my opinion the problems have something to do with the tools available for conducting RP in the first place *shrugs*


I could write a novel now just with this sentence. actually I was waiting for someone to bring this up. Let's see if more detail comes, but this hits the core of the matter here.


I actually just posted this single sentence because I needed a reference point to myself to find another post I had posted in.
However, I was being quite serious, and I could write a very long explanatory elaboration as to what I mean exactly, but I'll save that for later.

The point is, that it's not people's imagination that's the problem, or their desire to RP that's lacking. It's the medium to which we (the rp'ers) conduct our RP, which is often what we can't seem to agree on as there's not a single reference point that would clear this up a little for us.

I very often see all kinds of way of communicating, all the way from holographic projectors, to neurolinks, to telepathy, to all manner of binary systems being fictionally executed by people to talk and interact.

The EVE Interface is good for playing the game, but not good very good for RP'ing, atleast not without RP'ers having to agree to a lot of made-up standards first.

Victoria Ehr
Lonetrek Salvage and Scrap
Posted - 2007.10.20 03:18:00 - [283]
 

I am new to the EVE RP community and by no means plan to have my own sandbox. Regardless of how bleak the RP is or is rumored to be in EVE, i will just try my best to write neat stories and help make the game interesting for other players. When i get bored... I'll just go back to non-RP Razz

"It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness." (confucious)

Missy X
Posted - 2007.10.20 03:33:00 - [284]
 

Quote:
The BIGGEST problem with RP in eve, is and will always be, that roleplaying and doing well within eve are two mutally exclusive choices that a character must choose between. It is important to note that by doing well, I do not mean owning a few battleships and putting up an outpost or two in a quiet little region nobody else gives a crap about, I mean dominating the game.


I don't think they're mutually exclusive. I think it's more the case that a lot of people who consider themselves RP players simply just aren't interested in "dominating the game". For obvious reasons. Why would your character be motivated to dominate the galaxy? How many people are motivated to "dominate the world" in real life? Very few. Most people just want to get by and be happy in life, and to do the things that the love. "World domination" requires too much energy and heartache for all but the most egocentric of people. I know "dominating the game" is sure as hell not why I play EVE, I personally couldn't think of a more boring way to play it. It's not like CounterStrike where the play universe is just one small map and 'dominating' just means getting a few kills in a row and sharpening your reflexes a bit - dominating in EVE would surely be a never-ending grind and a half. If I was ever forced to play that way I'd probably just leave. And if that makes other people bring out the 'wizard hat' jokes, well, whatever... luckily I don't have too much of a vested interest in what others think of my playstyle...

Quote:
On another note, surely posting content from a banned user is a forum no no, I mean it effectively allows people to circumvent their bans?


Yes, yes it does. I didn't realise that the OPs content was from a banned user (I don't keep up with who is banned and who is not). If I'd known that originally, I wouldn't have even posted here at all, because I'm a big believer in that forum have rules, and that they should be followed, and if people get banned it's probably for a good reason, etc. So even though this thread is interesting to me, I'll stop posting in and reading this thread now, because if I were a forum moderator I would have deleted or locked it it by now.

Revan Neferis
Amarr
Bloodveil
BLOOD EMPIRE
Posted - 2007.10.20 03:45:00 - [285]
 

Edited by: Revan Neferis on 20/10/2007 04:04:41
Originally by: Missy X
I didn't realise that the OPs content was from a banned user (I don't keep up with who is banned and who is not). If I'd known that originally, I wouldn't have even posted here at all, because I'm a big believer in that forum have rules, and that they should be followed, and if people get banned it's probably for a good reason, etc. So even though this thread is interesting to me, I'll stop posting in and reading this thread now, because if I were a forum moderator I would have deleted or locked it it by now.


As a matter of fact this is another issue that has been overdue. People evolve as this game evolved since beta times in a community where 5 thousand players now became 30 and the ways of interactions have changed. Forum ban and rules were modified, no one gains 5 warnings in a role because of a damn signature anymore. 4 years on a record for 1pixel too big in the first 2 months of the game. If this is what makes you think you shouldn't post here anymore, my condolences.

Devs post here clearly shows that people is willing to past the asshatery and evolve to the better ways of a game now that is not produced at the back of one's garage anymore but it is an international sucess and exposed to the eyes of te world.

Let's stop right there people. The subject is one of the most interesting discussions ever done as the op is one of the persons that have contributed to eve rp more effectively than one could ever mention.
I could simply have used an alt or edit my post to say that the holy spirit whispered words to me. Sorry but I'm not the kind.
Time for people to open their eyes a bit and move on. Let's use what is good, for the good of this game.

Doppleganger
Minmatar
Band of Builders Inc.
Sodalitas XX
Posted - 2007.10.20 04:02:00 - [286]
 

Live RP and die RP its up to the players to make it live and grow.

Khishgee Goudiyah
Posted - 2007.10.20 04:10:00 - [287]
 

Edited by: Khishgee Goudiyah on 20/10/2007 04:12:02
Double post.

Roxelana
Amarr
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2007.10.20 04:11:00 - [288]
 

Edited by: Roxelana on 20/10/2007 04:17:28
Originally by: Stavros
The only roleplayers in eve are people who for whatever reason choose to impose self crippling rules and limits apon themselves and retreat to what in effect is a game within a game.


The limits which you speak of are self-imposed, but not arbitrary or nonsensical. The reasons for them should actually be quite easy to understand, even for someone who doesn't role-play himself. It is a simple case of trying to make sense with your RP and staying consistent with the prime fiction of EVE. For instance, if you RP a character affiliated with a certain NPC faction (as most RP'ers do), you will mostly run missions for that faction and not for certain other, opposed factions. If you RP a xenophobic, racist Amarr, you are not going to welcome "inferior" other races into your player-run corporation. You might even go so far that you only fly ships from one particular race, because you consider them your "home" technology.

For a RP'er, these limits are perfectly valid and sensible. Of course, they mean that you are always going to have some disadvantages in the number of your choices as opposed to someone who doesn't RP at all. But for most of us, it is more important to "make sense" in our RP and in the portrayal of our character. So we accept these disadvantages in exchange for being consistent and credible from an RP point of view. The good news is that these rules and limits need not be crippling, as you seem to think. With some creativity and imagination (which are the qualities of a good RP'er, anyway), you can find a good balance where you are making sense as a RP'er, but without restricting yourself to the point of hopelessness in your choices of allies, equipment and so forth.

These self-imposed limits are the smaller problem, anyway. The bigger one is that the number of people interested in RP is a minority within the larger community. This isn't the symptom of a "failure" of any kind, it is simply a reflection of the normal gamer demographics. There are more people who play first-person shooters and other action-oriented games than people who play RPG's.

Therefore, as a RP'er, you are always going to have fewer people to interact with. But once again, there is a positive trade-off for this: in my experience, RP'ers are often a lot more interesting to interact with than other members of the community (also "out of character"), because they have creativity and imagination, they are often interested in subjects like history and cultural studies, and their dedication to a particular MMOG is more long-term than that of the average gamer, allowing you to form more solid relationships.

Quote:
The BIGGEST problem with RP in eve, is and will always be, that roleplaying and doing well within eve are two mutally exclusive choices that a character must choose between. It is important to note that by doing well, I do not mean owning a few battleships and putting up an outpost or two in a quiet little region nobody else gives a crap about, I mean dominating the game.


"Doing well" in a MMOG means having fun and getting satisfaction from your own style of play. There are many ways to do this. Yours is to dominate and "win" the game (strange concept in a MMOG - it's not chess, is it?), and you seem to be under the impression that it is the only valid way. It isn't, and in truth, I'm having just as much fun in my "RP game within the game" as you are in your endless match of "Counterstrike in Space".

Quote:
'robe and wizzard' hat jokes will ring horribly true as roleplayers within this game are viewed more as weirdos running round a forest throwing ping pong balls at each other, than serious contenders within the game


Actually, these jokes are mere stereotypes spouted by people such as yourself, who don't really understand the appeal of RP or its community. The irony is that, with your prejudices, you fit the "immature geek" stereotype a lot better than most RP'ers I know.

Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2007.10.20 04:28:00 - [289]
 

Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 20/10/2007 04:33:22
The issues brought up in the OP are not the issues with the RP community, but the issues plaguing the entire game. The lack of individual importance, the tedium of achieving "success", the often poor state of immersion.

These things bother everyone, even immersion is important to the average player, they wish to play "internet spaceships" in a world that feels real, where things happen, where things don't just happen but they do so for a reason.

The real problems with EVE RP seem to be, as ever, the people, not the mechanics.

CCP seems to be under the misguided impression that the community is fine without input from them, indeed the oft repeated themes of "everyone role-plays in EVE" and "it's the community that drive it forward and their stories that matter" are really quite annoying.

You could say that everyone role-plays in battlefield, they certainly don't believe they're soldiers but they're often seen acting in a tactical manner with well laid strategies and a militaristic chain of command. You could say "everyone role-plays" in every single game on the market where the player is represented as something other than themselves. This does not a role-playing game make.

As for the community driving it forward, this is true to an extent, it's all about those little personal stories and how they intertwine and effect each other. But a roleplay community is like a... well a weed. It'll survive fine on own, indeed it will survive in the most hostile of environments. But if you care for it properly it can be much more. Those little stories mean much more when there are more points of interaction, events in the world drive these stories, and the "events" of alliance warfare and super-cap destruction really don't matter to those not part of that scene anymore than the news of what is happening in Mexico really matters those living in Belgium.

The community itself has it's issues, all communities do especially those made up of such unique characters (both in-game and out), but such things generally iron themselves out. Sure we could all do a little more to bring the role-playing "together" and we could do everyone a favor by lessening the elitism but the fact is these things are prevalent everywhere. Some people will always use RP as an excuse to be asshats, and some people will always be asshats over RP. All you can do is try to lessen interaction with those who have a negative impact on your experience, be it the elitist RP lawyers or the nublets who are "doing it wrong."

The state of role-play here is far better than that in many, many other MMO's. I put this down both to a good environment and a more mature community. But it could be so much more. Isn't that what we're saying here really? Role-play isn't "bad" or "dead" it's just that we all know that it could be whole lot better.

It's not down to the community to make it better, it's down to CCP. The weed will always have thorns. You can't change human nature. But if CCP can start feeding it the nutrients it needs by way of events, news, and generally more interaction and that feeling of being part of a living breathing world our role-play experience, and the gaming of all EVE players will be vastly improved.

That you can't spare a single member of staff for a day to write up a little material is down-right depressing. I personally don't feel what was being asked was necessary but the answer seemed to be, it's just not as important as our other projects. Are there really so few role-players in EVE that immersion itself isn't worthy of a department of it's own? Even a couple of employees whose vague and open-ended full-time job description is "to improve immersion" would make the game vastly better for everyone.

Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2007.10.20 04:29:00 - [290]
 

/stop casting Lesser Wall of Text
/remove Robe and Wizard Hat Very Happy

Maggot
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.10.20 06:44:00 - [291]
 

Originally by: Roxelana

If you RP a xenophobic, racist Amarr, you are not going to welcome "inferior" other races into your player-run corporation.



Or you could just say, to hell with it, and recruit any corp or anyone under the banner of your RP and beat your enemy through numbers. Winning is more important and with some good PR and public appearances hopefully no-one will notice.

Yep, think I saw that movie somewhere.

Ayari
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2007.10.20 07:12:00 - [292]
 

There appear to be two polar opposites in EVE.

We have the roleplayers, who come from games that allow you to create a character, say an old decorated war general with countless battles in his history, and the game would allow you to give the character attributes that reflect this fictional background, and allow the character to behave in a way that was consistent with his past. He gets +10 to fleet combat tactics or something.

Then you drop this character into EVE, He's still an old decorated war general, but EVE doesn't let you give him +10 to fleet combat tactics, the *player* needs that real life skill as a person if he's going to be consistent with his roleplay. This poses a problem for roleplayers of this sort, because they are limited in their choice of character backgrounds to what the player themselves can accomplish with their real life skills.

Then you have the player who is skilled at lowsec piracy, thus, he is playing the role of a pirate. This player however does not give a damn about the background story or science fiction setting of the game, and calls his character n00bKilla, names his ship 'Pwnmobile' and creates a corp called 'PainTrain'. Now, to me this raises a question, in the EVE universe, would a character be familiar with the words n00bKilla has used?

I guess what I'm saying is, it's okay to roleplay if your skills as a player can back up what your character background claims, and it's okay to play a role, as long as you try and adhere to the backstory put in place by CCP.

My biggest issue is that 90% of the players don't care a damn about the setting of EVE, and go about putting references to out of game stuff everywhere. Is it that hard to think for a moment and perhaps use names that are slightly more in keeping with the theme?

For me, roleplay is just an extra layer of immersiveness, with people who are prepared to make just a little effort to avoid references to things outside the EVE universe.

Octavinus Augustus
Amarr
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.10.20 08:05:00 - [293]
 

Originally by: Maggot
Originally by: Roxelana

If you RP a xenophobic, racist Amarr, you are not going to welcome "inferior" other races into your player-run corporation.



Or you could just say, to hell with it, and recruit any corp or anyone under the banner of your RP and beat your enemy through numbers. Winning is more important and with some good PR and public appearances hopefully no-one will notice.

Yep, think I saw that movie somewhere.



I think a lot of people will read this as a snipe at an organisation known as CVA - wether Maggot intended it so, I will leave that to your imagination.

A major problem with EvE RP, possibly the major problem is that it is exclusive in nature. Practically everyone has an idea of how it should be done and if you're not doing it "right" you're not RPing. Read theses pages and you'll find it shining through in a lot of posts.

I believe that is also what lies at the core of the greater EvE community's disdain for RP'ers - we're a bunch of geeks running around in pointy hats and fighting over the "rules" of how to RP "right".

The fact is that 0.0 EvE is a large community with a lot of different people in it. Some of these see themselves as RP'ers, some do not. If I wish to roleplay in this world, I need to do just that: play a role in this world. BoB, Goons, U'K, ENH, SF, Sani Sabik, Sylph, Slammer's Republic etc. are all entities of EvE. In order for me to credibly do RP in EvE I need to relate to all of those entities. Roleplay must be inclusive rather than exclusive. Until the "RP community" realize this, we will be scorned by the greater community as a whole - and quite rightly in my view.

But if I wish to RP according to "my rules" in a controlled environment (or ritualistic warfare as it has been dubbed), I can always settle in Empire and find some people who share my views. In Empire the game mechanics support such a style of play, which I believe, is quite intentional on the part of CCP.

As for the idea of xenophobic racists not accepting outsiders into their ranks that is simply your take on a given situation. I could point to the Roman Empire as a Real life example of the contrary: About half the Roman Army were made up of mercenaries from various allied states - people who did not have Roman citizenship but who might recieve it upon discharge from the army.

The question I believe all RP'ers should ask themselves is this: Why should I expect others to play according to my rules rather than the one's installed by CCP?

Oh, and before anyone throws a fit, please realise this is a personal opinion.







Karn Mithralia
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.10.20 08:33:00 - [294]
 

Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 20/10/2007 08:36:23


Perhaps you miss the thrust of Maggots post Octavinus. The point, I think, was summed up by this: 'recruit any corp'

Heres an interesting pro-amarr slaver alliance corp description I was perusing today, I'll happily forward you which corp in private:

"Let no one stand in the right to chose ones life style, for without the right to chose we are nothing but lifeless shells, so let our freedom never be taken and if it does let there be someone to rally us to take it back. Let our freedom stand till the day were are no more!!!!!!"

Each to their own, but seems bloody strange to me that a pro-amarr alliance would recruit freedom fighters. Laughing

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.10.20 08:51:00 - [295]
 

Originally by: Karn Mithralia
Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 20/10/2007 08:36:23


Perhaps you miss the thrust of Maggots post Octavinus. The point, I think, was summed up by this: 'recruit any corp'

Heres an interesting pro-amarr slaver alliance corp description I was perusing today, I'll happily forward you which corp in private:

"Let no one stand in the right to chose ones life style, for without the right to chose we are nothing but lifeless shells, so let our freedom never be taken and if it does let there be someone to rally us to take it back. Let our freedom stand till the day were are no more!!!!!!"

Each to their own, but seems bloody strange to me that a pro-amarr alliance would recruit freedom fighters. Laughing

Maybe they're talking about the freedom to own slaves? There is nothing horribly inconsistent there, it sounds pretty much like an NRA rally-cry.

Alternatively they're libertarians.

Revan Neferis
Amarr
Bloodveil
BLOOD EMPIRE
Posted - 2007.10.20 08:54:00 - [296]
 

Originally by: Karn Mithralia
Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 20/10/2007 08:34:33

Perhaps you miss the thrust of Maggots post Octavinus. The point, I think, was summed up by this: 'recruit any corp'

Heres an interesting pro-amarr slaver alliance corp description I was perusing today, I'll happily forward you which corp in private:

"Let no one stand in the right to chose ones life style, for without the right to chose we are nothing but lifeless shells, so let our freedom never be taken and if it does let there be someone to rally us to take it back. Let our freedom stand till the day were are no more!!!!!!"

Each to their own, but seems bloody strange to me that a pro-amarr alliance would recruit freedom fighters. Laughing


Before falling into the partizan side of things let me say that Octavious did point some interesting things,but in the wrong context in my opinion.
Again, I could simply go back to the ops post where it is said

" RP’s are ****ers. They are no better than any other member of this community. They want to win the PR wars, demean their enemies, they’ll use ooc methods to besmirch their foes reputations, they’ll cheat, they’ll steal, and they’ll corrupt authority and sleaze their way around given half a chance. You think I exaggerate? I’m simply saying that RP’ers are not like some secret virginal cult hiding from the Sodom and Gomorrah environment of the rest of the server. I’ve had new players in SF that say to me “bloody hell that IGS is a snakepit how do those guys get away with that?” (and this is in direct comparison to COAD I hasten to add) and their right of course, but since we’re being beastly to one-another “IC” its okay and we all secretly respect each other in the morning?"

At the end of the day there is a huge wall amidst the people that are called role players. Maybe this is what the public outside starts to grasp.
But what is this that makes rp corps and alliances been seen as a joke, as a plaything?
What I loathe about sandbox rp is this: Let's take examples of situations without stearing a tantum by saying names: Recentely, a "role play war" between an Amarrian and a Minmatar Organization. After using infiltration ( normal procedure which again some says role players shouldn't touch this "forbidden ground" this is what I found)

war ROE:
Quote
There are a few OOC ROE's we've applied to this war, hopefully nothing character-impeding. It's posted in this section rather than the original thread on XX so XX members can see it too. I'll explain the OOC rationales and then look at the OC reasons that back them up. Note that IC there is no official agreement between the parties, but there are plenty of IC reasons why each side individually can make these decisions.

1) Non-engagement days: Sundays and Mondays will see neither us nor XX sending parties to each other's space.


My comment when I read that was Seriously: WTF! If this is what is done, how can any rp entity be considered any less than a joke at public eyes? And they want nes about their wars! Didn't stop there, let's see more:


2) POS assaults: Both sides have enough problems with pirates and other hostiles doing this, so we've agreed not to do it to each other.

Shocked no comments. Talk about sandbox.

( continuing )

Revan Neferis
Amarr
Bloodveil
BLOOD EMPIRE
Posted - 2007.10.20 08:55:00 - [297]
 

Edited by: Revan Neferis on 20/10/2007 09:03:19
3) Even fights: This isn't something we quantise, only a declaration of intent. "We will try not to blob". With different pilot skill levels and different ships, it's hard to gauge the exact numbers/ships/pilots to take into a fight. But the emphasis is that we will try to match up. So you might find FCs saying things like "We don't need a BS, let's not risk it til we need it." Note that this doesn't mean lone pilots won't get attacked - it would be too glaringly OOC to walk past a lone target. But you might find your ship toyed with rather than killed. Or you might not. Knowing that there are ROE is no excuse for incautious or overly-****y behaviour.

Hardly something to comment. WoW anyone?

4) RP: Every encounter should be used as an excuse to engage the enemy in conversation, unless you're the "silent killer" sort. The idea is to make every encounter in some way worth it to both sides, so even a loser walks away with a developing storyline - a rivalry, a grudge, an insult to pay back, heck, even a hopeless crush Tongue

And there you go. These people will do this and call a war. they will go to IGS and post a huge story about it and claims of bravery and such.
Immersion anyone?

No thanks. I could rp something like this as I'm X went to Y house to eat a cake.

Does anyone wonders why these people freaks out when faced with the outside world? Why so much hostilities when you simply throw a REAL War on the horizon? How could you, griefer! you suppose to role play!

This is a clear example of what's going on nowadays that brings the huge contrast between alliances as SF, Sani Sabik , CVA that are out there to play eve as eve is. A challenge, a chance to suceed, exceed. Using the alliances Octavious brought to view, when we lost almost 70 ships in a night engagement against CVA and block, we had something to feel about. Our wallets suffered. Yet, I could see my character going home and cursing Infidels for the dark nights. Some role play has teeth as it's used to say.

Differences are clear.

Kazuma Saruwatari
Posted - 2007.10.20 09:45:00 - [298]
 

Originally by: Revan Neferis
Differences are clear.


And yet many people dont care what these differences are, if at all they're differences to begin with, since we all play the same game, same rules, same CCP, same universe.

This is partly why roleplayers get the "lol" and get pointed at like some village idiot or geekier-than-thou. Some people just dont care whether or not you're a threat like CVA/Veto/etc, because its the abject closed-minded mentality that is "Roleplay = off-the-deep-end geek and roleplayers = easy targets".

I can name oh so many players who view CVA as a "peice of crap" and "either paying off Coalition/Alliance/both to keep Providence" and "they're not really in control of Providence, they're just figureheads" and so on and so forth.

CCP, by (lack of) action, is following this disturbing mentality, slowly but surely. I'd love to think otherwise, but actions speak louder than words.

I'm sorry CCP Ginger and the rest working on this "surprise", but for me, its too little, too late.

Maggot
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.10.20 09:56:00 - [299]
 

Octavinus,

The issue is when you bring any old corp that have no real interaction on the RP front it becomes "just another 0.0 alliance" with no real identity other than "we hold xxx area and are allied with A, B, and C", admittedly CVA are still a bit "better" than that but only just.

I agree that we can't live in a sandbox, but if you claim to be a RP organisation then you will be judged by your standards, wether you care or not.

The path taken dilutes the sense of belief in the conflict, its down to the level of "pew pew".

Maggot.

Karn Mithralia
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.10.20 09:58:00 - [300]
 

Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 20/10/2007 10:02:58

Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari

I can name oh so many players who view CVA as a "peice of crap" and "either paying off Coalition/Alliance/both to keep Providence" and "they're not really in control of Providence, they're just figureheads"


It has to be said this is rubbish, comments made by people who know nothing about which the speak.

I have fought CVA for going on two years and through that time fought alongside, and against, some of the best pvp forces in eve. CVA stack up with the best and did what no one else managed - to dislodge U'K's hold. At end of the day CVA stand up on their own two feet and are a formidable foe when compared to any of the best pvp forces in eve.

U'K lost Unity station simply because of this fact. We fought hard to the bitter end but at end of day CVA are a very effective fighting force.

Can they be beaten? ofc. Are they crap? Far from it, at a guess I'd say they rate in top 10%.

Respect where respect is due.


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