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Bridget Mery
Brannigan's Law
Posted - 2007.10.15 23:25:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Vitrael
Maelstrom 4th worst BS?

Laughing

It's the single best artillery boat, and one of the best autocannon boats. In point blank engagements really only the Megathron can hold its own.


the mael is an amazing Tanker but as it only has an ROF bonus it's DPS is severely lacking unless you fit 3 Gyro IIs. It also isn't versatile in the slightest when compared to the Tempest.
I see a LOT of tier 3 BS on Sisi and there, they can be very successful. On TQ however the Tier 1 and 2 BS just seem a far better option 90% of the time, for various reasons which i'm too lazy to list right now Razz



Maelstrom does more DPS than a Tempest. Before fitting damage mods. Maelstrom can afford to fill at least 2 lows with Gyros.. without substantially gimping its tank. Can the tempest do that? No. Also, Maelstrom has so much PG, if it does fit ACs it can easily fit 2-3 falloff rigs, thus giving it rediculous range for ACs.

Maelstrom >> Tempest.

ITTigerClawIK
Amarr
Galactic Rangers
Galactic-Rangers
Posted - 2007.10.15 23:26:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: WildSide
worste ship must be the hyperion. I find more or less no point in it. only place I use it is on sisi. think I had 1 hyperion on tq ever...and then it was faction fitted to be able to get a half decent setup. but after losing it I never seen the point replacing it.


you musnt get out to much lol ^_^

Vitaki
Rens 911
Posted - 2007.10.15 23:31:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Vitaki on 15/10/2007 23:39:52
Originally by: WildSide
worste ship must be the hyperion. I find more or less no point in it. only place I use it is on sisi. think I had 1 hyperion on tq ever...and then it was faction fitted to be able to get a half decent setup. but after losing it I never seen the point replacing it.
A rigged hyperion can tank like 1200+ dps without faction mods, and still manage over 600 dps. If you are going to fit an active tanked ship, the hyperion is probably the best.

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
the mael is an amazing Tanker but as it only has an ROF bonus it's DPS is severely lacking unless you fit 3 Gyro IIs. It also isn't versatile in the slightest when compared to the Tempest.
I see a LOT of tier 3 BS on Sisi and there, they can be very successful. On TQ however the Tier 1 and 2 BS just seem a far better option 90% of the time, for various reasons which i'm too lazy to list right now Razz
I don't know how you missed the fact that the maelstrom does more base damage before damage mods than a tempest. With damage mods the gap starts to increase and the maelstrom has an easier time fitting them than the tempest does.

Shereza
Posted - 2007.10.15 23:34:00 - [34]
 

Quote:
I'm sorry man but the raven is far and away the best PvE ship and not bad when it fits EW stuff or a huge tank, and the Megathron is quite possibly the best sniping battleship.


I won't argue the point, or the numbers, but for me they're pretty bad ships.

In the case of the raven I can get about as much maximum DPS with my machariel with a much nicer, and easier to use, tank. Tracking issues will be tracking issues and the ammo isn't as versatile with artillery as it is with missiles but for me that nasty passive shield tank is well worth it.

Vitaki
Rens 911
Posted - 2007.10.15 23:38:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Vitaki on 16/10/2007 00:05:19
Originally by: Shereza
In the case of the raven I can get about as much maximum DPS with my machariel with a much nicer, and easier to use, tank. Tracking issues will be tracking issues and the ammo isn't as versatile with artillery as it is with missiles but for me that nasty passive shield tank is well worth it.
Arrgh I missed the sarcasm in your original post. Anyhow how much pvp have you flown? Do you fly your faction ships in pvp or do you just mine with them? :p

Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
Posted - 2007.10.16 00:15:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Vitaki
I don't know how you missed the fact that the maelstrom does more base damage before damage mods than a tempest. With damage mods the gap starts to increase and the maelstrom has an easier time fitting them than the tempest does.


only half a gun's worth of damage, and then the Tempy still has TWO utility slots, whereas the Mael has none.

In general though, yes you are right, the average fit Mael will have a Better Tank and do slightly more damage than a Tempest (although still quite poor) , but the fact that a Tempest:
- Has 2 spare highs for Utility (extremely useful for neut/remote rep)
- Can fit MWD/Web/Scram/Inject/SB in Meds AND a 6-slot tank
- Is the 2nd fastest non-faction Battleship in EVE, allowing it to actually get in range when AC fit.
- dosen't look like a dog/SW-ripoff hybrid
- Is cheap

more than makes up for it, IMO. It's an amazing all-round Battleship and great in multiple roles and useable in virtually any situation. The Mael is not.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2007.10.16 00:33:00 - [37]
 

Mael Poor DPS? 1050 Dps is poor DPS? While being able to tank the same ammount of daps?
NO other BS can do it. Well the Abaddon can, for 2 minutes.

Fuazzole
Posted - 2007.10.16 00:52:00 - [38]
 

My vote goes to the Rokh,
only a few caldari pilots have uber railgun skills,
only a few galante have uber caldari BS and shield skills

so no one can use it...
+range = bad cap:dmg ratio
big guns a.k.a ~35cap/sec drain = active tank
cap inefficient tank
425mm SFX contibute's to a whole -1% of eve's game score
needs lots of cap but magicly has the poorest cap of any BS other then a noob piloting a geddon

why is this my lvl 4 mission ship of choise?
oh yeah, it looks gud

Bridget Mery
Brannigan's Law
Posted - 2007.10.16 02:11:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Vitaki
I don't know how you missed the fact that the maelstrom does more base damage before damage mods than a tempest. With damage mods the gap starts to increase and the maelstrom has an easier time fitting them than the tempest does.


only half a gun's worth of damage, and then the Tempy still has TWO utility slots, whereas the Mael has none.

In general though, yes you are right, the average fit Mael will have a Better Tank and do slightly more damage than a Tempest (although still quite poor) , but the fact that a Tempest:
- Has 2 spare highs for Utility (extremely useful for neut/remote rep)
- Can fit MWD/Web/Scram/Inject/SB in Meds AND a 6-slot tank
- Is the 2nd fastest non-faction Battleship in EVE, allowing it to actually get in range when AC fit.
- dosen't look like a dog/SW-ripoff hybrid
- Is cheap

more than makes up for it, IMO. It's an amazing all-round Battleship and great in multiple roles and useable in virtually any situation. The Mael is not.


You don't need to get into range when you factor rigs and the spare PG left over on a maelstrom. Falloff rigs are your friend. You can fit an MWD and point if you need to, still have room for an injector, XL booster, and 2 invulns. I think you are drastically overplaying the importance of utility slots.

Also, yes the Tempest is faster... but is your tempest really going to be tackling anything? You're going to be using a Battleship to chase another ship down? Why? In that rare situation, then yes, you would want a pest over a mael. However, I think in most gangs the maelstrom is MUCH better than the tempest because it has better range, damage, and tanking abilities.

Right now the tempest is pretty much a poor man's maelstrom. The issue with the tempest is primarily that it really has nothing that it accels at that the maelstrom can't do almost as well or several times better.

Trojanman190
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.10.16 02:48:00 - [40]
 

Pest and phoon are fanastic... phoon will get even better with torp boost. Most people dont fly maelstroms in pvp, they fly pests, you surely haven't flown this ship amigo.

Random Incarnate
Australia and New Zealand Eve Corp
FOUNDATI0N
Posted - 2007.10.16 04:27:00 - [41]
 

I'd still call the Scorp a pretty poor BS.

Look at it. The blackbird is just a better ship for the job. 60mil for a ship that has a considerably larger sig radius, lower speed, much less manouverable...or 3mil for a ship that can do the same job with a smaller sig radius, ok speed, and run pretty fast when all jam cycles fail. Oh, and has a better base scan res to work with.

The scorp has the advantage of not being frig/drone bait. But that's it.

So, yeah, I can't comment on other BS's, but the scorp is right up there for worst BS.

Jasai Kameron
Hakata Group
Blade.
Posted - 2007.10.16 09:59:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Vitaki
Edited by: Vitaki on 15/10/2007 19:56:53
Edited by: Vitaki on 15/10/2007 19:46:25
Originally by: DrkKing
scorp, nice ship, can have mean tank to full the enemys making it primary

pest: ye, can use some more damage tbh, but so can most minmatar ships
Why would you ever fly a scorp for this role instead of a Raven? In fact why would you ever fly a scorp instead of a raven? Your doing your gang a disservice by flying something that does no damage and can't jam worth a damn. Being a flying brick without damage is terrible. You could be flying a Raven with 550 dps and nearly the same tank.

Yes, but the Raven wouldn't be primaried. You say, further down the page, that a Scorpion will always be primaried, because people assume its a) dangerous with EW and b) has such a pathetic tank that it can be destroyed quickly.

However, if you devote 8 med-slots, 4 lows and 3 rigs to tank, you basically give yourself a damage sponge. All the ships in their fleet waste their dps on a ship that has virtually no offensive capabilities, giving the other ships in your fleet more time when they are free of damage.

That's the tactic the poster was suggesting.

Kamikaaazi
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.10.16 10:09:00 - [43]
 

id have to say scorp.
Last time i saw these ships in any real fleet battle it was before ecm nerf.
Just check any statistics generated by any big fleet battles (more than 100 ppl) and youll get lucky if there is even 1 scorp.
That should say all there is to say about scorp.

Xequecal
Posted - 2007.10.16 10:19:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Xequecal on 16/10/2007 10:20:44
Originally by: Vitaki
A rigged hyperion can tank like 1200+ dps without faction mods, and still manage over 600 dps. If you are going to fit an active tanked ship, the hyperion is probably the best.


BS. 3x EANM II + DCU II + 2x LAR II with two nanobot accelerators and an aux nano pump is 1119 DPS tanked. Also, where do you intend to get the 120 cap/second to run those reppers and the guns? An injector won't even come close to giving you that much cap, not that you have the PG to fit in on this setup to begin with.

Worst BS are Typhoon and Apoc. Typhoon is split weapon system and gimped PG, Apoc has no damage bonus and gimped CPU.

Testy Mctest
Posted - 2007.10.16 10:31:00 - [45]
 

I'd say you're bang on with Apoc #1, but Tempest should really be #2 as it's pretty bad at everything at the moment. Scorpion does come #3, but it's nowhere NEAR as bad as 1 and 2. It still has many uses. The only reason it's a bad BS is because it's basically just a big , slow, lower-sp Rook.

Xequecal
Posted - 2007.10.16 10:35:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Testy Mctest
I'd say you're bang on with Apoc #1, but Tempest should really be #2 as it's pretty bad at everything at the moment. Scorpion does come #3, but it's nowhere NEAR as bad as 1 and 2. It still has many uses. The only reason it's a bad BS is because it's basically just a big , slow, lower-sp Rook.


You seriously can't be suggesting that the Tempest is worse than the Typhoon.

Ash'el
Amarr
Posted - 2007.10.16 10:39:00 - [47]
 

Apoc and its big brother the Navy Apoc are the worst.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2007.10.16 11:08:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Xequecal
Originally by: Testy Mctest
I'd say you're bang on with Apoc #1, but Tempest should really be #2 as it's pretty bad at everything at the moment. Scorpion does come #3, but it's nowhere NEAR as bad as 1 and 2. It still has many uses. The only reason it's a bad BS is because it's basically just a big , slow, lower-sp Rook.


You seriously can't be suggesting that the Tempest is worse than the Typhoon.


people really underestiamte the phoon.
But none of the Mimi BS are to be on the worse list.




In current stats the worse is the nightmare (now soone to become the best), followed by apoc, followe by fleet tempest (not that its worse than a tempest for example, but if so NOT USEFUL for the extra isk that is must get this position.

The others are mostly well balanced.

Xequecal
Posted - 2007.10.16 11:32:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Xequecal on 16/10/2007 11:35:42
Edited by: Xequecal on 16/10/2007 11:32:54
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
people really underestiamte the phoon.
But none of the Mimi BS are to be on the worse list.




In current stats the worse is the nightmare (now soone to become the best), followed by apoc, followe by fleet tempest (not that its worse than a tempest for example, but if so NOT USEFUL for the extra isk that is must get this position.

The others are mostly well balanced.


No amount of "you're not l337 enough to fly this ship" will make the Typhoon good.

- It does not have the PG to active tank at all, period.
- A Typhoon in full passive tank + gank mode does less DPS than a Tempest, Armageddon, Abaddon, Hyperion, Dominix, or Megathron in the same configuration, and none of them are relying on slow moving tiny explosion radius torps to do that DPS.

Tempest with 6x 800mm II and 2x Cruise II with faction ammo and 3x Gyrostab II: 1032 DPS with drones.
Typhoon with 4x 650mm II and 4x Siege II with faction ammo and 2x BCS II/1x Gyrostab II: 1023 DPS with drones.

Did I also mention you need AWU V just to get two plates plus a MWD on that Typhoon? And that you will run into massive CPU problems trying to fill out the rest of the slots on it, requiring you to probably fit a faction 0 CPU plating or something to get it to fit?

Shereza
Posted - 2007.10.16 11:39:00 - [50]
 

Quote:
Arrgh I missed the sarcasm in your original post. Anyhow how much pvp have you flown? Do you fly your faction ships in pvp or do you just mine with them? :p


Wasn't much in the way of sarcasm, honestly. I really really dislike the raven, not the least of which is because I have a hard enough time getting armor tanking ships to work after being spoiled by passive shield let alone getting active shield to work.

Megathron's one of those ships I thought'd be way cool to fly and was training up for and then got a good look at. Since then the hyperion was released and I rather liked it.

As for PvP minimal, no, and hell no. ;-)

Seriously, only faction ships I've owned are slicer, hookbill, succubus, nightmare, and machariel and all of them suck for mining, though the machariel could do okay as an afk miner since it can get a decent mining rate on 6 lasers and an okay cargo capacity I suppose.

Besides that, if I took my machariel into PvP I'd sure as heck not have it passive shield tanked. ;-) At least not until I've purchased a replacement.

Osric Wuscfrea
Gallente
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.10.16 12:19:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: WildSide
worste ship must be the hyperion. I find more or less no point in it. only place I use it is on sisi. think I had 1 hyperion on tq ever...and then it was faction fitted to be able to get a half decent setup. but after losing it I never seen the point replacing it.


Skill deficiency or poor fitting? The Hype stomps all over megas apart from sniping...Idea

Zy Nox
Posted - 2007.10.16 12:26:00 - [52]
 

The Tempest is good, there is more to EVE than EFT tank and gank figures. Also lub the typhoon it just takes a godly amount of sp to get it working.

If I had to pick a useless BS it would be the Apoc, it is stuck inbetween 2 very very good gunboats and its bonuses are pretty useless. It dosent look like it has a role at all to me but I dunno not a big amarr flyer, is it even a good sniper?

Scots Crusader
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.10.16 12:35:00 - [53]
 

From a Minnie perspective the problem is our BS are almost niche fitted and the Mael has almost made the Pest redundant(I still prefer Pest for sniping due to speed and maneuverability). The Mael is the BEST gate camp busting BS out, +1100 dps with a good tank is hard to beat.

Pest is imho the poor relative amongst the Minnie BS's atm. Good alpha with arty, but not as much as the Mael, but TBH, I tike the 2 extra top slots for other mods and as said the speed etc does make it my prefered sniper but most will see it as the poorer option.

Phoon. I like the ship. It has a certain versatility to it but it is a very skill intensive ship for a supposedly tier1 BS. The biggest problem I see is the actual fittings problems this ship has with the poor PG.

Tearavygh Quillam
Caldari
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.10.16 13:07:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Vitrael
Originally by: Vitaki
When I run the numbers in eft with t2 1400mm and 3 gyrostabs on both with all level 5 skills using tremor the maelstrom outdamages the tempest and fits a much better tank. Do you think that people don't fit 8 guns on thier Maelstroms? The Maelstrom gets a better alpha strike too.

Why are you testing them with such bizarre fittings? Hold on, you're gonna make me download EFT at work...

Okay, with Maelstrom and Tempest piloted by a maxed skills character fitting only 800mm IIs (8 on maelstrom, 6 on tempest) their damages are 394 and 423 respectively. Tempest has two additional high slots. I was wrong about it outdamaging with just the 6 slots, but it certainly has more options open with those remaining two highs. As far as tank - meh. I'd rather have a heavy neut.


No, you're actually right.

If you fit 6*800mm t2 + 2 siege launchers (which you can with the Tempest grid), the Tempest it's surely ahead of the Maelstrom, dps wise.

The Tempest is just great because it can fit a lot of roles more easily than Mael.

I find the Tempest one of the best BS in the game.

DeadDuck
Amarr
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.10.16 13:35:00 - [55]
 

They all have their roles.

I would take a Apocalipse to a fleet battle any time before the Geddon or Abaddon. It is capable of making fire continuously, on longer ranges then the others. One thing that others cant.

Tempest are awesome cause of the Alpha strike, wich make them very handy in fleet fights.

Scorpions are deadly if fitted properly and continue to be called primaries in every fleet battle. If they suck so much why are they being called primariES, right on top?

Thyphoons use to be named useless. Then someone thought in fit them some overdrives, Nos/neutralizers and they become solo pwnmobiles.

In theory tier2 BS are better then their older brothers but with the price of 1 Abaddon you buy 2 Geddons. Can a Abaddon beat 2 geddons or 2 apocalipses ???




DARTHxFREE
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.10.16 13:39:00 - [56]
 

im only realy familiar with cald/galante BS's, the minmitar seem ok but i've never been impressed with that impel thing

DarkFollower
Amarr
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.10.16 13:44:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: DarkFollower on 16/10/2007 13:46:55
If u're saying the tempest is bad , u must be out of u're mind , or haven't flown any
Ofc it has his pros and cons , but if u ever see a tech2 auto hail torp tempy 2 km from u start counting to 10 because that's the time u have to get out of there alive

edit : ohh and yeah apoc suky suky 5 dollah , good for either bait to colect insurance or fleet bs

Andrue
Amarr
Posted - 2007.10.16 14:24:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Andrue on 16/10/2007 14:24:44
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth
Apoc, does not really have a role because of the abaddon.

I'd put the Geddon not far behind but still kinda good, if it had 8/4/7 slots it would go from kinda average to fricken uber IMO.

Domi because I hate the way it looks
Both the 'Geddon and Apoc make very good loot/salvage ships for mission runners. Probably not the role CCP had in mind but it makes a change from mining in them Laughing

Marn Prestoc
Minmatar
Maelstrom Crew
Paradigm Alliance
Posted - 2007.10.16 14:40:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: DarkFollower
Edited by: DarkFollower on 16/10/2007 13:46:55
If u're saying the tempest is bad , u must be out of u're mind , or haven't flown any
Ofc it has his pros and cons , but if u ever see a tech2 auto hail torp tempy 2 km from u start counting to 10 because that's the time u have to get out of there alive

edit : ohh and yeah apoc suky suky 5 dollah , good for either bait to colect insurance or fleet bs


I'm with Calmdown and Scots on the Pest. We're obviously out of minds with our BS 5's and t2 AC's though. Thereís a huge list of ships Iíd panic more about at 2km than a Pest.

Itís a long time since it was a viable AC ship (nos, ecm ect). 5 mid and 6 lows means serious compromises, either tank and low damage or gank and next to no tank, where 7/8 low ships can stack up the damage mods and tank mods, especially with rigs which emphasises specialisation which ships like Mega and Geddon can do, even the Typhoon.

Ekscalybur
Caldari
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2007.10.16 18:20:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Red Harvest


About the Rokh:
Im a bit pampered by my abaddons alpha and range so the Rohk looks quite weak to me.
With mixed sniping gangs (@160km) the Rohk really is sub-par for the skills needed and its price tag.
If it could actually make use of its 249.99+ ranges things would be different but like all caldari snipers it really lacks the alpha to be a serious threat.




I'm not a Caldari BS pilot, but doesn't the crazy range capabilities of the Rohk allow it to use higher damaging (shorter range) ammo for a "hidden" damage bonus? Certainly a Rohk could use a much shorter range ammo than a Megathron would have to use to hit 160km. It won't have the damage bonus the Mega has, but it can use a higher damaging ammo than the Mega to hit the same ranges as the Mega. 8 guns with a "hidden" damage bonus can't be that bad compared to 7 damage bonussed guns.

Or does the Mega's tracking bonus leading to higher quality hits really put the distance between the Mega and Rohk in sniping set ups?


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