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blankseplocked The farce that is killboard statistics.
 
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Shamis Orzoz
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.10.15 14:54:00 - [31]
 

Our killboard subtracts points based on number on the killmail. Although it does not drop below a certain threshold, otherwise everybody would want to go out solo. It is still unbalanced though when you try to look at total numbers.



tigress
Gallente
Genco
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.10.15 15:01:00 - [32]
 

Just as a curiosity, the IAC killboard does indeed divide kill-isk values on the members on the mail. Although not only the alliance. Personal stats will be pretty accurate tho.

But I kinda agree, killboards in the way they work now ruins some of the game to be honest. I'd rather have some sort of ingame tool to see how alliance-wide operations are going.

Hobblah
Caldari
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.10.15 15:04:00 - [33]
 

KIA used to have a killboard where some of the stats could be seen by "final blow". On long term losses and final blows are comparable and give better information about the situation. For personal stats, that is not so good for people mainly flying EW and tacling ships. Those ships have huge large impact on the fight but rarely get the final blow.

On the other hand, I wonder what would happen if the killmail system would be totally removed. I guess number of the FPS-type players would leave the game and holding space would come more important. Pirates would really pirate for money rather than random kills.

-Hobblah


probablecause
Gallente
Infinite Improbability Inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2007.10.15 16:07:00 - [34]
 

I admit I only read the first couple messages here. But the Killmail Mk1.5 dev blog says that they will be including damage dealt as a field for all killers involved. This would seem to solve the problem. Add up total damage dealt to a target, divide by the damage each player did, and award points on the KB according to that. This way, if your alliance had a frigate get a round off on a Mothership being taken down by another alliance, you only get a very very small fraction of the "value" of that kill.

Sokratesz
Caldari
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.10.15 16:12:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: probablecause
I admit I only read the first couple messages here. But the Killmail Mk1.5 dev blog says that they will be including damage dealt as a field for all killers involved. This would seem to solve the problem. Add up total damage dealt to a target, divide by the damage each player did, and award points on the KB according to that. This way, if your alliance had a frigate get a round off on a Mothership being taken down by another alliance, you only get a very very small fraction of the "value" of that kill.


One word: e-war

Ramlir
Gallente
0.0 Corp
Posted - 2007.10.15 16:18:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz

One word: e-war


Well, it's called a killmail, not a participation-mail. If you want some impressive stats get out there in a BS or a HAC and there you go. There's no possible way to quantify the percentage role a particular e-war module played in the downing of the target. Not through an automated system, anyway.

Kesc
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.10.15 16:51:00 - [37]
 

Get rid of killmails. They are a bane on EVE.

They promote people flying their ships like *snip* Choose a different term - Kreul Intentions. Not even to mention inspiring all sorts of forum idiocy.

EVE would be more visceral without killmails. It would be directly about holding and taking territory, and destroying opponents isk and assets.

And on a smaller scale would promote better fights and more in-game skill and tactics since corps don't feel pressured to bow their play style with killboard considerations.

ACHURA CALDARIAN
Caldari
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.10.15 16:52:00 - [38]
 

Think that CCP add a Formal Killboard on these forums which is showing who did what and giving the share to the corps / Alliances this would give a real accuracy on kill / loss stats tough sometimes losses or kills dont mean too much because the progress in a war is more accurate by sov change and poss kills

Killboard stats only a factor in this wars but not the main

REGARDS

Ramlir
Gallente
0.0 Corp
Posted - 2007.10.15 16:53:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: pastafarianist


So basically you want everyne to fly DPS ships only?




Jesus, I forgot how important killboards were to pubbies. It's just inconceivable for you to fly e-war for support, isn't it?

If you can come up with a system that perfectly quantifies the participation of an e-war module in a unit of measurement that can also be applied to damage, then post it.

GoGo Yubari
Gallente
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.10.15 16:55:00 - [40]
 

Yes, the OP has a point. Regardless, personally I'm more amazed at the people who emo-rage about killboard statistics being "wrong". Excuse me, but everyone and their dog already knows this! It's not news to anyone. That said, I still like to see kb stats, even if it smoothes over allied losses. Statistics in itself is just pure data anyway, so they really can't be "wrong" in that sense. You gotta do something with them if you want to pull relevant information out of it. Does the typical manner of presentation potentially misrepresent things? It might, but the discerning reader will not be misled.

I think certain alliances should start making pulling accurate statistics out of joint operations a priority. I say that not because it would make for an effective forum warfare tool (though that'd happen too), but because that information is valuable to evaluate campaign performance. This is extremely relevant to empire-style alliances who have other alliances to do their work for or alongside them, such as the GBC and RSF. Likewise, I think the MC is in a position where such statistics are desirable, not only internally, but by the clients.

Without putting people on the same killboards, a solution isn't immediately easy, but it is doable. I think that in time we must see killboards that will evaluate joint operations to this extent, but when this happens is anybody's guess. Anybody updating old or creating new killboard code should take heed. Might want to get someone trained in statistics involved while they're at it, too.

Kaaii
Caldari
Kaaii-Net Research Labs
KAAII-NET
Posted - 2007.10.15 16:57:00 - [41]
 



Since
I fly basilisks alot, i think we should have "save mails", where you get points for keeping your gang mates alive....

Rolling Eyes

Then I could be uber mail waver too...

Kieranda
Amarr
Weyland-Yutani Future Technologies Inc.
Posted - 2007.10.15 16:58:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Ramlir
Jesus, I forgot how important killboards were to pubbies. It's just inconceivable for you to fly e-war for support, isn't it?

If you can come up with a system that perfectly quantifies the participation of an e-war module in a unit of measurement that can also be applied to damage, then post it.


why stop at e-war ships, those poor logistic ships need some love too!
and then those cute bystander's armor repair drones in an empire war that want a few seconds of killmail fame :cry:

Shamis Orzoz
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.10.15 17:07:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Kesc
Get rid of killmails. They are a bane on EVE.

They promote people flying their ships like *snip* Choose a different term - Kreul Intentions. Not even to mention inspiring all sorts of forum idiocy.

EVE would be more visceral without killmails. It would be directly about holding and taking territory, and destroying opponents isk and assets.

And on a smaller scale would promote better fights and more in-game skill and tactics since corps don't feel pressured to bow their play style with killboard considerations.


As the leader of a large PvP corp, I have to say, killboards are an invaluable tool. They allow me to assess when we need to do some more training, or when we need to revamp our tactics. They also allow me to track alliance progress during the day while I'm at work, while simultaneously giving me the best means of tracking down inactive players or worthless players in the corp/alliance.


Andargor theWise
Gallente
Collateral Damage Unlimited
Posted - 2007.10.15 17:16:00 - [44]
 

Also, as someone who flies cov ops and recons, I would like to salute those of us in this thankless, but essential job. Battles are won and lost based on intel.

I don't pay much attention to kb stats, tbqh.

Ramlir
Gallente
0.0 Corp
Posted - 2007.10.15 17:20:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Andargor theWise
Also, as someone who flies cov ops and recons, I would like to salute those of us in this thankless, but essential job. Battles are won and lost based on intel.

I don't pay much attention to kb stats, tbqh.



Exactly, I wasn't arguing that everybody should be using DPS ships. I was saying if you care that much about stats that's what you should fly.

Nez Perces
Amarr
Metatron Inc.
Posted - 2007.10.15 17:21:00 - [46]
 



Originally by: Shamis Orzoz


..... killboards are an invaluable tool. They allow me to assess when we need to do some more training, or when we need to revamp our tactics. They also allow me to track alliance progress during the day while I'm at work, while simultaneously giving me the best means of tracking down inactive players or worthless players in the corp/alliance.




This man speaketh the truth.

People forget what a wonderful source of information killmails are on many many levels.

Additionally.. think about the type of game EVE really is... its a pvp game in the fullest sense of the word; economically, militarily and politically. People will use whatever they can get their hands on to indulge in point scoring over their enemies.

If it wasn't killboard stats it would be something else. Calling out killmails as the source of all evil is naive in the extreme.

The source of all evil lies within us.... dun.. .dun.. dun.. dun .....


Tiggus Maximus
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.10.15 17:22:00 - [47]
 


My recommendation would be to scrap killmails, we don't need that level of detail. However, people do like to "keep score" (myself included) so definitely replace it with something, better yet something that is kept track of by CCP, not player run killboard sites which are open to interpretation.

For example(just off top of my head):
Maybe if you said a battleship such as a Raven consists of X amount of damage, then as a player accrues damage on Ravens their kill count will increase for that shiptype. Ewar "damage" could be a separate stat for the same shiptype.

You lose the level of detail we have today, but I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing.

pandymen
Caldari
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.10.15 17:23:00 - [48]
 

Umm....can't understand why no one has either read or linked this but....Killboard Mk1.5 Devblog .

Check that out. The formal killmail system is going bye bye. You will be able to see every kill/loss a player has by simply looking at his info.

Killboards will still exist, but if you want to check out individual guys...you can see their stats.

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2007.10.15 17:28:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: marakor on 15/10/2007 17:31:22
Originally by: Ramlir
Originally by: Andargor theWise
Also, as someone who flies cov ops and recons, I would like to salute those of us in this thankless, but essential job. Battles are won and lost based on intel.

I don't pay much attention to kb stats, tbqh.



Exactly, I wasn't arguing that everybody should be using DPS ships. I was saying if you care that much about stats that's what you should fly.


I agree bud cos if ppl wanna get on kill mails they will proly need to fly a fast locking high damage ship in a big fleet fight.

Although with roaming gangs the guy in the scout/tackler may actual get/catch most of the kills on the OP but not get on a single mail. So to sort this perhaps a EVE KB that gets the full mails sent to it (with all parties involved included). This way everybody involved gets a mention.

Danyael Tyren
Gallente
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.10.15 17:47:00 - [50]
 

Killboards and the info they keep are important. They shouldn't be used as e-peen measuring, but they offer an alliance a great deal of important information. An alliance can, at a glance, see what ships their enemies are flying, what ships their members are flying, what regions hostilities are taking place in, and that information can be vital to making OpSec decisions.

Tuis Ryche
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.10.15 18:01:00 - [51]
 

Take a page from hockey...
Kills
Deaths
Assists

It would provide more accuracy in the Kills column by attributing the killshot to only one person and transfer all that overcounting to the Assist column. But in evaluating a player in particular, you can see exactly how many they have actually killed and guage how their experience based on that and the number of assists they have on the kill.

The issue is in what would count as an "assist".

pershphanie
Gallente
Black Core Federation
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2007.10.15 20:41:00 - [52]
 

/signed

Killboard efficiency is not only meaningless but also irrelevant. The only thing that matters is whether or not you complete your objectives. The only reason people keep stats is for a false sense of superiority and smacking rights. Unless you are a corp like outbreak who for the most part only fly with other corp members then you're killboard doesn't represent reality. You can have one member of your corp/alliance in a fleet with 100 other people, get on most of the killmails and make it look like your alliance kicked some ass when in reality your 1 pilot was irrelevant. Even if your alliance has a legit 10-1 kill/loss ratio that doesn't make you the winner of anything. If you lose 100 ships killing nothing, but still complete your war objectives then you've won.

Along with that killboards are also misleading because they do not distinguish a kill acquired in a gank from one you've gotten in a fight. Sure there is value in effectively ganking your enemy. However that value is not = to a kill you've acquired in a real fight. You're ability to effectively gank you're enemy has little to do with your ability to fight your enemy. Killboards also treat the meaningless kills of random neutrals in empire or 0.0 the same as a kill scored against a real enemy. Killboards also do not take into account the quality of pilot/corp/alliance you score a kill or take a loss to. Killboards don't even accurately account fittings into the equation when calculating efficiency. I think we can all agree that killing 30 Goons or ISS members is easier than killing 3 Burn Eden or MC members. Yet if you kill a burn eden raven that's kitted with all officer mods it is given equal value on a killboard as a kill on a goon raven with t1 fittings flown by a 4 month old character npcing in lowsec. I'd rather fly with a corp/alliance that has a true 50% efficiency against burn eden or MC than a corp/alliance with a 75% efficiency against goonfleet or ISS.

Not only are these statistics meaningless but posting kill/loss mails is a disadvantage for you. All the information you need about your enemy is conveniently provided by them on their killboard. From their killboard you can find out who their best dmg dealers are (who to call primary or jam), what types of ships they normally fly (tell you what ship you should be flying/what to fit), and what dmg types they deal the most of (how you should tank your ship). You can usually piece together someone's complete ship setups just by looking at their loss mails. Also if you are trying to track down what your enemies are currently up to usually all you have to do is look on their killboard and they provide you with an approximate list of where they are, what they are flying, and how many ships they have.

The ONLY way to have a an accurate killboard that is helpful/advantageous to the participants is to find a single killboard that all other killboard stats feed into. That way you could look at fight and all the mails from both sides would be their and only counted once. The only way to really get everyone to cooperate with this is to have at least a 24hr delay and hide the fittings portions of the mails. Also accurate fittings prices need to be factored into efficiency. Along with the normal efficiency #'s there should be a weighed efficiency based on target difficulty. Meaning the value of a kill is based on the victim's efficiency/volume of kills.

pershphanie
Gallente
Black Core Federation
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2007.10.15 20:43:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: pandymen
Umm....can't understand why no one has either read or linked this but....Killboard Mk1.5 Devblog .

Check that out. The formal killmail system is going bye bye. You will be able to see every kill/loss a player has by simply looking at his info.



I've read it. It's just putting lip stick on a pig tbh. They are fantastic changes, however they do not address any of the major flaws of killboards.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2007.10.15 21:37:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Gnulpie on 15/10/2007 21:42:33
Originally by: Ramlir
Originally by: Sokratesz

One word: e-war


Well, it's called a killmail, not a participation-mail. If you want some impressive stats get out there in a BS or a HAC and there you go. There's no possible way to quantify the percentage role a particular e-war module played in the downing of the target.


Absolutely right!

Otherwise maybe next people want to include industrialists on the killboards also? I mean...without them building ships and modules no one could do the kills. So they are 100% essential. And therefore they must be included in the killmails also ... at least the people who actually did build the ships and the modules and the ammo which killed the enemy.

Ridiculous. Evil or Very Mad


Originally by: pandymen
Umm....can't understand why no one has either read or linked this but....Killboard Mk1.5 Devblog .


I already did on the first page in my first post there! I can't understand why people don't read the whole thread but then complain that people didn't do this or that. Confused

Ezoran DuBlaidd
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2007.10.15 21:39:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: fire 59
Well they were talking about it from there perspective although i see what you mean. In all honesty, i think killmails should be gotten rid of so we can focus on what's important. Would also be cool to have to figure out what the enemy is upto by there wrecks and tactics with them etc



not exactly sure what you said; but, i think i agree with you.

Ezoran DuBlaidd
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2007.10.15 21:41:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Hobblah
KIA used to have a killboard where some of the stats could be seen by "final blow". On long term losses and final blows are comparable and give better information about the situation. For personal stats, that is not so good for people mainly flying EW and tacling ships. Those ships have huge large impact on the fight but rarely get the final blow.

On the other hand, I wonder what would happen if the killmail system would be totally removed. I guess number of the FPS-type players would leave the game and holding space would come more important. Pirates would really pirate for money rather than random kills.

-Hobblah





i do agree with what you said.

Sokratesz
Caldari
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.10.16 06:52:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Gnulpie

Originally by: pandymen
Umm....can't understand why no one has either read or linked this but....Killboard Mk1.5 Devblog .


I already did on the first page in my first post there! I can't understand why people don't read the whole thread but then complain that people didn't do this or that. Confused



It's because killmails 1.5 isnt a solution to this problem. Ideally, a script should be added to all kilboards to calculate your participation in a kill, aided by the statistics made available in km 1.5.

dalman
Caldari
TunDraGon
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.10.16 07:29:00 - [58]
 

The point system on RA's killboard is working nicely for individual pilots.

Can't count all the times someone's made a post here saying "hey, I have a 5:1 k/d ratio, how come I have negative points on RA's board?"
Laughing

Tobias Sjodin
Caldari
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.10.16 10:48:00 - [59]
 

Killboard statistics are unfortunately very oftenly misrepresenting reality.

One thing I've seen is when three or four different corporations target one alliance and roam their space, attacking mostly people that rat, etc. - then claiming their prowess through killboard statistics. Pirate corporations of course do this validly, and there may very well be a strategic gain by this, but using the kill statistics to somehow claim some form of prowess is ... misunderstanding the figures.

Same three-four corporations engage in a 100v100 fleet fight versus one alliance.

Alliance X get on 30 kills and suffer 30 losses.
Corporation A get on 30 kills and suffer 10 losses
Corporation B get on 30 kills and suffer 10 losses
Corporation C get on 30 kills and suffer 10 losses

Then each individual corporation brag about their 3:1 kill ratios on the forums,
whereas Alliance X shows 30 kills, and 30 losses in their battle summary.

Hence, if you want to see the -real- big picture, look at the larger entity's killboard for a correct display of how good/bad you did. If you are an individual corp versus an alliance, or a group of alliances versus one alliance, rely on the data gathered by the killboard with the fewest amount of participants.

Eg. 3 alliances versus 10, watching the stats on the 3 alliances would most likely display a correct display of the battles.

This of course assumes that all mails have been posted, which is also a factor that plays an important role in this. You can almost always rely on an enemy posting their kills, and not alway rely on their ability to post losses. And of course the same applies for you.

Hence if everyone made it into a habit to always feed from their enemies killboards, that should help create a better, more correct image of the engagements.


DeTox MinRohim
Minmatar
Madhatters Inc.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2007.10.16 11:16:00 - [60]
 

People are bothered for not much tbqfh...

Personnally, I don't care as it serves only to see where me or us or them were and in what I/we/they participated in.

As for the e-peen/stats smack stuff, I have a mental "CAOD Cleaner" kind of thing for that part. Smile


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