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Talpa Iute
Gallente
Blind Violence
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2007.10.10 07:08:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Kalissa
Looking forward to the 2nd part, hope it's as good as the first.


I'll second that.

/Talpa YARRRR!!

Malachon Draco
Caldari
eXceeded
Posted - 2007.10.10 07:12:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Nez Perces

Originally by: WhatIsItGoodFor
Whether posted from a BoB member, a GS member, or someone unaffiliated with the war entirely, that corp/alliance ticker will automatically cause people to make assumptions about what I'm saying before they read a word.



You sought to protect your thread from bias by using an alt, which is probably not a bad idea, considering the polarisation inherent in this war. Is it a valid excuse though?

One could easily say - and there is the precedent for it - "post with your main.. etc.. etc..".

This goes to the heart of what differentiates an alt from a main... What does being an alt really mean?

Well, literally speaking an alt is an alternate character. And therefore a main is a main character. The percieved wisdom is that posting with your main is more authentic than posting with an alt. In a lot of cases this might be true, but there are certainly exceptions..

For example Backdoor Bandit is an obvious alt, but he is much more interesting than his main character. Some mains don't post on CAOD at all, instead their alts are well known CAOD commentators. Take Sir Molle.. is he really a main? or is he simply BoB's well known and infamous mouthpiece, whilst Shrike really does all the heavy lifting.

Or goonfleet, they are mostly mains or so it would appear.. but when you argue with goons you argue with them all at the same time, which is kinda freaky.

My point is, WhatIsItGoodFor may or may not be an alt, but he has produced a coherent and informative piece of writing.

Surely that is more than most mains accomplish in a lifetime of CAOD posting. For some that might be good enough to excuse the use of an alt.. for others not.. such is CAOD.




What might help a little is if the OP would promise to reveal his main at a certain point/end of the conflict. That way people can determine for themselves if the reasoning was really balanced at the end at least.

Gralgathor
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2007.10.10 08:18:00 - [93]
 

I found myself looking for a "Digg it" button for this post. Very well done. Looking forward to your further analysis.

Arl
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2007.10.10 08:30:00 - [94]
 

It's a good post but then anyone with an interest could post together a balanced viewpoint on the war. I can't help thinking that there's a sucker punch coming and that this first report is just to build a reputation for fair reporting.

You will eventually reach some predictions and that's going to show which side you favour.


Eben Rochelle
Gallente
RPS holdings
Posted - 2007.10.10 09:04:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: CrispyKritters
Originally by: Areena Shay


Fair enough. My goal was not to start a flame war. I am sick and tired of all the propaganda posts they put out. CAOD has turned into a cesspool of Goon propaganda. Yet, at least in this ONE thread, all but 1 Goon have been fair. I retract my earlier statement and hope maybe Goons can lay off the propaganda BS for good.


Way to avoid a flame war with a flame post. Obviously before Goon propaganda posts, BoB was the beacon of light on COAD and we all strive to be them Rolling Eyes.



maybe not but you could ignore the odd propaganda post and carry on with your reading... can you say the same about Goon posts?

and to the OP nice writeup.

SmokeyUK
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.10.10 09:12:00 - [96]
 

An accurate and unbiased report Smile

Mobius Dukat
Minmatar
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.10.10 09:20:00 - [97]
 

OK well i'm in Goonswarm so i'll probably be flamed, but oh well.


The OP, he is both correct in his territorial statements for the south, but also incorrect.

He is correct in that although sov is still in place, stations remain in RISE hands for example. Effective control of those systems has been lost to Swarm. With our groups moving unfettered through the systems with little to no resistance. But that said I doubt the OP has had hands on access to the systems himself, to see whats actually occuring right now on the ground....space....ground...place.

So imo, whilst very correct that the battle lines are similar to before on paper, they are not in practice.

Also i think this will be of some use. Here we have the frontlines 5 months 8 days ago going by infulence [as unbiased as we can get i hope]
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/UNL/070501.png

And here the latest revision.
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png

To me those lines "on paper" look very similar to one another, certainly space has been lost and gained, but no huge swathes have changed hands and remained as such, of course i only comment on the south...sorry northeners but I dont keep track to much of whats going on up there :(

Sadly there is no map going back to the where LV still existed, atleast not on the eve files page...if anyone has one i think that'd be quite an interesting look back.

I can't comment on the numbers of ships lost or the cost of POS's deployed.


But I am sure we can all agree, what is written on maps..is rarely what is happening on the ground.

Saint Luka
Minmatar
Altruism.
Darkness Rising Alliance
Posted - 2007.10.10 09:33:00 - [98]
 

Nice read, has useful content, not much properganda and not very biast (apart from too Triumvirate Shocked)

I'll look forward too your future installments.

Lowa
Gallente
North Star Networks
The Kadeshi
Posted - 2007.10.10 10:25:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Arl
You will eventually reach some predictions and that's going to show which side you favour.


The question is does that matter IF the reports continue to be as accurate as this one?
As long as the OP stay as unbiased as this, fairly correct and well spoken it doesnt matter what side he is on does it?
What if the last report predicts BoB to pull through, would you take the pi*s all over this thread and claim
it all to be lies and speculation just because the prediction (i.e. he is guessing) didnt favour you?
What if its a Goon memeber predicting it...? Wink

Its when you see things that are completely taken out of the sky and proclaimed to be the one and only truth you should watch who's main it is.

And why wouldnt a mature person with access to information on either side be able to create this and
talk about it objectively even from their own side? Its hard but it can be done.

I sincerely hope it wont come to the usual flame fest and so far it looks ok.

Personally I dont think anyone is going to pull through, a bunch of more systems and stations will change hands
in both directions, leaders will look at map and think "-Hmm...maybe that isnt so bad afterall?" and it will
trail down from being territorial warfare into roaming and big ass battles "for fun".

This has been round one (when it finishes around Xmas), round two is to start April/May 08.


Cheers,
Lowa - I just wanted to feel like an oracle. So sue me!

Juan Andalusian
Gallente
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2007.10.10 10:39:00 - [100]
 

Quote:
What might help a little is if the OP would promise to reveal his main at a certain point/end of the conflict. That way people can determine for themselves if the reasoning was really balanced at the end at least.


Yeah cause, god forbid, people might otherwise base how balanced the reasoning was on the actual content and merits of the arguments / facts presented.

Where would we be without labelling...

Trembler
Minmatar
Solar Dragons
SOLAR FLEET
Posted - 2007.10.10 10:55:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: Trembler on 10/10/2007 10:56:59
The way I see it, it was about time someone from CCP started threads on these forums.

Cool

__
tk

Harkan Ramientes
Amarr
Aquilae Stellaris
Talon Alliance
Posted - 2007.10.10 11:11:00 - [102]
 

Edited by: Harkan Ramientes on 10/10/2007 11:13:01
Edited by: Harkan Ramientes on 10/10/2007 11:12:09
Originally by: Mobius Dukat
OK well i'm in Goonswarm so i'll probably be flamed, but oh well.


The OP, he is both correct in his territorial statements for the south, but also incorrect.

He is correct in that although sov is still in place, stations remain in RISE hands for example. Effective control of those systems has been lost to Swarm. With our groups moving unfettered through the systems with little to no resistance. But that said I doubt the OP has had hands on access to the systems himself, to see whats actually occuring right now on the ground....space....ground...place.

So imo, whilst very correct that the battle lines are similar to before on paper, they are not in practice.

Also i think this will be of some use. Here we have the frontlines 5 months 8 days ago going by infulence [as unbiased as we can get i hope]
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/UNL/070501.png

And here the latest revision.
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png

To me those lines "on paper" look very similar to one another, certainly space has been lost and gained, but no huge swathes have changed hands and remained as such, of course i only comment on the south...sorry northeners but I dont keep track to much of whats going on up there :(

Sadly there is no map going back to the where LV still existed, atleast not on the eve files page...if anyone has one i think that'd be quite an interesting look back.

I can't comment on the numbers of ships lost or the cost of POS's deployed.


But I am sure we can all agree, what is written on maps..is rarely what is happening on the ground.


I suppose that a completely unbiased opinion is quite hard to obtain, but I'd discount that, due to the observer's POV

you're right when you say that what's written on the map is different compared to what happen on the field but any opinion is a personal point of view and as such it's read through one's own experiences

OP is an enjoyable read nonetheless, since is a trial to encompass the entire map on somehow simple,but coherent analysis

Shredded
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.10.10 11:14:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Juan Andalusian


Yeah cause, god forbid, people might otherwise base how balanced the reasoning was on the actual content and merits of the arguments / facts presented.

Where would we be without labelling...


Oh god, agreeing with a BoB Post.. Neutral

Shadowsword
Gallente
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2007.10.10 11:17:00 - [104]
 

Nice threads, I look forward to the sequels.

Just two things that should have been noticed, imho.

- About titan "value", with a fit that must average around 20-30 billions, and 18 billions of basic insurance, the loss of an active titan is theorically worth a bit more more than the one of an uncompleted one. However, the surviving modules can be retrieved by the alliance that lost the titan, so I consider, in term of attrition, that both in-space titan kills and titans killed in shipyards have an equivalent value.

- About territory on the southern front: most of the territory that the GBC took out from RSF, had been the work of near-invulnerable titans. Since the beggining, the RSF has a marked advantage in conventionnal warfare, if only because of sheer manpower, while the GBC is the master of capital blob, and titans were basically removing conventionnal ships from sovereignty fights. Almost as soon as Titans got rebalanced, Bob stopped gaining territory, and started losing it. Of course, they didn't lose every fight, and the RSF has known setbacks.

It will be interesting seeing what the map looks like in three months.

Mobius Dukat
Minmatar
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.10.10 11:24:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Harkan Ramientes

I suppose that a completely unbiased opinion is quite hard to obtain, but I'd discount that, due to the observer's POV

you're right when you say that what's written on the map is different compared to what happen on the field but any opinion is a personal point of view and as such it's read through one's own experiences

OP is an enjoyable read nonetheless, since is a trial to encompass the entire map on somehow simple,but coherent analysis


Indeed, thats why i feel that mapped terrotorial gains and/or losses should be taken with a pinch of salt at best, and frontlines generally not labeled as such Smile

Without independant observers in all fields of combat, following along the frontline giving objective and neutral views on where they areis hard/impossible, currently all/most views are based on posts here or the soverenity maps themselves.


Would be helpfull if CCP gave a "contested" flag to system which had a higher concentration of >-5.0 standing ships/players.... to the soverentity claiming alliance.

Diicc Tater
Caldari
Aggressive Tendencies
Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2007.10.10 11:30:00 - [106]
 

To be fair, Goonswarm did wtfpwn Veritas Immortalis in Scalding pass, taking 3 Stations (1v-, 28y, "J-L0") and to that, 2 Outposts (KZF, now at Capital sov. and RYC).
These were not mentioned as I can see it and although one can debate if this was prior to Molle's announcement, it is still part of the LV demise as well as the war in total.

Excellent writeup tho, refreshing read.


Tundaar
Minmatar
Eve Defence Force
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2007.10.10 11:30:00 - [107]
 

. . .Oops - sorry , I thought I was on COAD for a second but found a balanced literate post without much flaming . . .

Apologies for interrupting.

/Tundaar goes back to Forum to look for COAD.

DaiTengu
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.10.10 11:31:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Shredded
Originally by: Juan Andalusian


Yeah cause, god forbid, people might otherwise base how balanced the reasoning was on the actual content and merits of the arguments / facts presented.

Where would we be without labelling...


Oh god, agreeing with a BoB Post.. Neutral


Also agreeing with a BoB post, what has this world come to? :smith:

Harkan Ramientes
Amarr
Aquilae Stellaris
Talon Alliance
Posted - 2007.10.10 11:35:00 - [109]
 

Edited by: Harkan Ramientes on 10/10/2007 11:38:27
Edited by: Harkan Ramientes on 10/10/2007 11:35:36
Originally by: Mobius Dukat
Originally by: Harkan Ramientes

I suppose that a completely unbiased opinion is quite hard to obtain, but I'd discount that, due to the observer's POV

you're right when you say that what's written on the map is different compared to what happen on the field but any opinion is a personal point of view and as such it's read through one's own experiences

OP is an enjoyable read nonetheless, since is a trial to encompass the entire map on somehow simple,but coherent analysis


Indeed, thats why i feel that mapped terrotorial gains and/or losses should be taken with a pinch of salt at best, and frontlines generally not labeled as such Smile

Without independant observers in all fields of combat, following along the frontline giving objective and neutral views on where they areis hard/impossible, currently all/most views are based on posts here or the soverenity maps themselves.


Would be helpfull if CCP gave a "contested" flag to system which had a higher concentration of >-5.0 standing ships/players.... to the soverentity claiming alliance.


a contested flag system could be useful to gain a deeper insight of what's going on the battlefield, right, but it would also be deceiving to the casual observer, due to the fluidity of the war theatre and war mechanics...well unless CCP can give us real-time update of the front, crossing a lot of data (ships killed compared to flow of pilots per time unit and such) in a single synoptic table...sure that it would be interesting on the statistical point of view

but then again, the emotive part of EvE would still play his role in anyone's opinion

D2O HeavyWater
Amarr
Goodfellas holding corp
Posted - 2007.10.10 11:37:00 - [110]
 

Dam IRON is dead?? I thought our killboard was looking a little too sexeh obviously itís an illusion as we donít exist.
Nice write up by the bay if not a little inaccurate.

Mobius Dukat
Minmatar
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.10.10 11:48:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: Harkan Ramientes


a contested flag system could be useful to gain a deeper insight of what's going on the battlefield, right, but it would also be deceiving to the casual observer, due to the fluidity of the war theatre and war mechanics...well unless CCP can give us real-time update of the front, crossing a lot of data (ships killed compared to flow of pilots per time unit and such) in a single synoptic table...sure that it would be interesting on the statistical point of view

but then again, the emotive part of EvE would still play his role in anyone's opinion



I think it would give a interesting view on how deep into enemy territory there enemies were progressing in a sizeable force. But at the same time a realtime update would be unmanageable, running that many standing checks over and over on each ship in system would be fairly taxing.

If say over a 36 hour period the number of action pilots in system, ships used, pos's destroyed or constructed...would give a colour intensity of the contestedness of the system.


Thus you would have a bright line of systems where active conflict against system sov was taking place, updated every day and a half. Surrounded by a collection of systems where running battles are taking place...gradually fading back to the solidly held systems where hostiles rarely enter.


Thus a small gang of 5 people runnig into the enemy capital would not suddenly make the system contested, but if they hung out there for 36 hours, shot up a few pos's...then it'd mark the system as having a minor contested state [afterall the local defenders will vastly outnumber them in terms of pilots in space and active pos's].

Malachon Draco
Caldari
eXceeded
Posted - 2007.10.10 11:52:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: D2O HeavyWater
Dam IRON is dead?? I thought our killboard was looking a little too sexeh obviously itís an illusion as we donít exist.
Nice write up by the bay if not a little inaccurate.



Don't take it too hard, we're all dead, we just don't know it yet. At least, some grandstanding idiot said that a while ago, not sure if we should believe him though.

Harkan Ramientes
Amarr
Aquilae Stellaris
Talon Alliance
Posted - 2007.10.10 12:00:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Mobius Dukat
Originally by: Harkan Ramientes


a contested flag system could be useful to gain a deeper insight of what's going on the battlefield, right, but it would also be deceiving to the casual observer, due to the fluidity of the war theatre and war mechanics...well unless CCP can give us real-time update of the front, crossing a lot of data (ships killed compared to flow of pilots per time unit and such) in a single synoptic table...sure that it would be interesting on the statistical point of view

but then again, the emotive part of EvE would still play his role in anyone's opinion



I think it would give a interesting view on how deep into enemy territory there enemies were progressing in a sizeable force. But at the same time a realtime update would be unmanageable, running that many standing checks over and over on each ship in system would be fairly taxing.

If say over a 36 hour period the number of action pilots in system, ships used, pos's destroyed or constructed...would give a colour intensity of the contestedness of the system.


Thus you would have a bright line of systems where active conflict against system sov was taking place, updated every day and a half. Surrounded by a collection of systems where running battles are taking place...gradually fading back to the solidly held systems where hostiles rarely enter.


Thus a small gang of 5 people runnig into the enemy capital would not suddenly make the system contested, but if they hung out there for 36 hours, shot up a few pos's...then it'd mark the system as having a minor contested state [afterall the local defenders will vastly outnumber them in terms of pilots in space and active pos's].


Your idea isn't bad at all, and is worth developing, only (minor) issue I can find here is the amount of data that should be processed in order to have a clear view of what's going effectively on

and eventually the fact that biased opinions would not subside anyway Wink

Arl
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2007.10.10 12:13:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Lowa
Originally by: Arl
You will eventually reach some predictions and that's going to show which side you favour.


The question is does that matter IF the reports continue to be as accurate as this one?
As long as the OP stay as unbiased as this, fairly correct and well spoken it doesnt matter what side he is on does it?
What if the last report predicts BoB to pull through, would you take the pi*s all over this thread and claim
it all to be lies and speculation just because the prediction (i.e. he is guessing) didnt favour you?
What if its a Goon memeber predicting it...? Wink




He can't make predictions for the war without showing who he thinks will succeed in the short or long term.

It doesn't matter to me which side he picks, I was just pointing out that the lack of bias so far is a tactic to make his later predictions carry more weight. That's still a valid point even if his conclusions later turns out to be negative to BoB.

And yes whichever side he picks will have the other side flaming the thread and maybe rightly so, so far he's just an alt not showing his bias.


Lowa
Gallente
North Star Networks
The Kadeshi
Posted - 2007.10.10 12:47:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Arl
Originally by: Lowa
Originally by: Arl
You will eventually reach some predictions and that's going to show which side you favour.


The question is does that matter IF the reports continue to be as accurate as this one?
As long as the OP stay as unbiased as this, fairly correct and well spoken it doesnt matter what side he is on does it?
What if the last report predicts BoB to pull through, would you take the pi*s all over this thread and claim
it all to be lies and speculation just because the prediction (i.e. he is guessing) didnt favour you?
What if its a Goon memeber predicting it...? Wink




He can't make predictions for the war without showing who he thinks will succeed in the short or long term.

It doesn't matter to me which side he picks, I was just pointing out that the lack of bias so far is a tactic to make his later predictions carry more weight. That's still a valid point even if his conclusions later turns out to be negative to BoB.

And yes whichever side he picks will have the other side flaming the thread and maybe rightly so, so far he's just an alt not showing his bias.



You are absolutely right, he cant make any predicitons for the war without showing who he THINKS will succeed.
The question was if that is such a bad thing? IMHO you should be able to guess in an orderly fashion without being flamed to a crisp, dont you?
At least as long as one backs it up with sane arguments as to why one would think so. And hopefully you could
get the other side of a conflict to respond in the same way. I know its a long time ago but several wars have
had just that even in most heated scenarios and situations. A lot more fun to read too.

How much weight it will carry depends much more on the "facts" presented than who the corp ticker belongs to if you ask me.
And why should one be flamed for posting in a constructive way, even if one side disagrees it would be nice
that for once the responses would be argumentative in a good way instead of the usual bs that comes out?

At the moment this just gives a good overview and it forces people to think for them selves on what scenarios
will or could be played out in a long term perspective, at least thats what I like to do and so far I've been
quite correct in my own conclusions. One being that BoB would get the hard fight they always wanted and have
a seriously hard time against Goons and allies this time. Perhaps that was an easy one but still. Razz


Cheers,
Lowa

Azaries
Caldari
H A V O C
Posted - 2007.10.10 13:08:00 - [116]
 

Nice Post!

It's a nice change to cut through the bull and get a nice war report.

Mundem Pashdale
Gallente
Sacred Templars
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2007.10.10 13:10:00 - [117]
 

The lack of insider knowlage of the North is a shame, but the analysis seems very sound. An excelent post; I look forward to the next part!

Raluque
Caldari
Cryptonym Sleepers
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2007.10.10 13:54:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: WhatIsItGoodFor
Originally by: Xalorn
You forgot to put a relative perspective on it.


This thread was not about who has to momentum now. It was about what has changed territorially since the start of the war, because that has implications for tomorrow's analysis.

Current momentum will be covered once all the foundational discussions and arguments have been made that relate to it. To do so before that groundwork was laid would make such a discussion worthless.


This is quality response right here.




Sul Condbax
Gallente
Open Season
Posted - 2007.10.10 13:59:00 - [119]
 

Edited by: Sul Condbax on 10/10/2007 13:59:40
Originally by: Trembler
Edited by: Trembler on 10/10/2007 10:56:59
The way I see it, it was about time someone from CCP started threads on these forums.

Cool

__
tk


you're probably spot on Very Happy

Arl
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2007.10.10 14:05:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: Lowa

You are absolutely right, he cant make any predicitons for the war without showing who he THINKS will succeed.
The question was if that is such a bad thing? IMHO you should be able to guess in an orderly fashion without being flamed to a crisp, dont you?
At least as long as one backs it up with sane arguments as to why one would think so. And hopefully you could
get the other side of a conflict to respond in the same way. I know its a long time ago but several wars have
had just that even in most heated scenarios and situations. A lot more fun to read too.

How much weight it will carry depends much more on the "facts" presented than who the corp ticker belongs to if you ask me.
And why should one be flamed for posting in a constructive way, even if one side disagrees it would be nice
that for once the responses would be argumentative in a good way instead of the usual bs that comes out?

At the moment this just gives a good overview and it forces people to think for them selves on what scenarios
will or could be played out in a long term perspective, at least thats what I like to do and so far I've been
quite correct in my own conclusions. One being that BoB would get the hard fight they always wanted and have
a seriously hard time against Goons and allies this time. Perhaps that was an easy one but still. Razz


Cheers,
Lowa


Let me put it this way when James 315 posted everyone knew what they were getting. Bob could look for holes in his argument and RSF could kick back and enjoy. This guy is setting one side up for a fall. It's got nothing to do with the fact I think it was a good post.


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