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Zana Kito
Posted - 2007.09.28 11:44:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Grytok
I've allready said it, and I'll say it again, just to make sure you whiners get it eventually some time.

Nano-Ships are not overpowered. They just have the ability to run away, if things go not in their favor.



So deciding when to fight and when not to fight without your direct opponent having any impact is not a problem? I believe that was THE big issue as per dev reasoning for the original nerf..

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2007.09.28 11:46:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Grytok
I've allready said it, and I'll say it again, just to make sure you whiners get it eventually some time.

Nano-Ships are not overpowered. They just have the ability to run away, if things go not in their favor.

A single Vaga is not able to kill a properly fitted Tier 2 Battlecruiser or Battleship.
A single Ishtar is not able to do that as well, as you can kill their Drones, if they keep out of WebRange not able to scoop and redeploy in an instance.

And if you're talking about gangs, then well... 10 ships will allways kill your solo ratting Battleship, even if they're not fitted for Speed.

If you want to have everything totally balanced, then go playing TicTacToe...
...but I'm sure you'll be the ones who cries: "Nerf the CENTERSQUARE *whaaaaaa*".


WTG to ignore the real issue, which is gang vs gang combat. It is simply pointless to try and fight a nanogang with conventional setups, even if you outnumber them.

Nanogang is the other side of the same coin as SS+Cloak. And it is actually funny how there is so much whineage about that, a lot of which I am sure comes from the very people who fly in nanogangs.

Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2007.09.28 11:58:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Leandro Salazar
It is simply pointless to try and fight a nanogang with conventional setups, even if you outnumber them.


So, don't fight them with "conventional setups".

Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
Posted - 2007.09.28 12:02:00 - [64]
 

Believe me, I'm not saying that Nano-Ships are not annoying, but for me they are not a big threat either.

There are counters which have been allready mentioned a dozen times in this thread and taking away the ability to Speed-Tank is not an solution, as it would become pretty boring, if you can only choose between Gank or Tank.

Speed-Tanking, EW, pure Damage, heavy Tank... they all should have their place in EvE.

CCP is allways tweaking, to get those options somewhat equal, but there will allways be some FOTM-setups around, which anyone is using until they get rebalanced. And if they're all balanced in the end I'm sure there will be more whinage about something like ship-designs or ugly Caldari-Characters not beeing sexy like Gallente, or whatever.

Don't cry too much about everything, as in the end anything will be about who can bring the bigger fleet, read: more damage. Which is allready a problem Neutral

Avataris
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2007.09.28 12:08:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Avataris on 28/09/2007 12:18:27
Whilst I sympathise with those people who have rubbish internet connections, I don't feel I should have to adapt my gameplay style because of it.

Geographical disadvantages happen in all online games - and contrary to what some people seem to think - Eve is not and should never be a turn based strategy game.

Everyone has many fitting options they can choose from - some of us prefer speed to tank and gank - because it makes us more survivable.

There is a small section of the Eve community that decries any fitting option that doesn't gell with their chosen way to play the game.

Whether it's 'CCP it's not fair that people can cloak!' or 'CCP it's not fair that some people go so quick that I can't gank them!' or 'CCP it's not fair that some people use EW!' All of these whines seem to be based around a belief that these players should have the god given right to gank every single opponent without ever having to adjust or change their setups.

It's called lazy gaming.

People like the OP are systematically trying to destroy the great variety and complexity of options that make Eve a great game. They would see this game turned into nothing short of tank vs. gank with no other options, gradually sucking the life out Eve so they can always win every fight using the same boring predictable setups and tactics.

If you can't be bothered to think - go play something easier.

Broska
D00M.
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2007.09.28 12:09:00 - [66]
 

Reasons why nano ships are not overpowered:

1. Set up cost. It cost roughly 90million just for the poly carbs to make one work, 100million for the hac, Another 40 for the other fittings, 30 for a 3% implant. That's 260million right their. It's like saying faction fitted ships are over powered, There simply not for the set up costs involved.

2. Skill Point Requirement. You really want to fly a nano ship properly your looking 15m sp +. AC5, Evasive Manuvering 5, HAC4, Lv5 Gunnery Skills, T2 Medium guns (lv 4), ECM Drones (For Vaga), T2 Heavys (Ishtar) (Plus even more relivant drones skills at level 4), Advanced Weapon Upgrades 4, Sheild skills around lv4 and 5.

That's alot of skills simply to fly one effectively.

3. Pilot Skill - It takes a hell of alot of skill to fly a nano ship into a gang of people, OK solo it's just orbit at 16 and your away, but how oftern do you get solo fights? All it takes is one mistake by the pilot of the nano ship and there dead, One web, one ceptor you didn't notice, Boom there goes 240mill. It's not like flying a tanked battleship where a mistake can be countered.

4. Overheated Webs - One overheated web = dead nanoship.

5. Papers thin - As mentioned in pilot skill, nano ships are paper thin. All you need is someone to spam some precision heavys / assaults and they'll run away or die before they can warp. It's a fair trade, You trade your ability to be hit for the ability to take damage.

6. DPS - Compaire the DPS to a nano'd HAC to a properly set up close range HAC. And don't come back with EFT numbers because anyone with half a brain knows that it's not actualy possible to acheive that DPS Whilst flying a nano ship.

Would you like me to go on?

Drek Grapper
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.09.28 12:14:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Grytok
.....

If you want to have everything totally balanced, then go playing TicTacToe...
...but I'm sure you'll be the ones who cries: "Nerf the CENTERSQUARE *whaaaaaa
*".


Very Happy

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.09.28 14:11:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Trishan
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Imho the nano needs a huge slap with the nerfbat. I don't mind frigates doing these stunts, but cruiser sized (and larger) ships should simply not be able to speedtank against everything. Even the Vaga should not.

Ok, everybody, repeat after me. The Vaga does NOT speed tank. Every time it turns on the MWD, it CANNOT hit. Unlike other ships that use missiles and drones and can afford to maintain high speeds and still ganking happily.



Actually, even according to your description, the Vaga DOES speed TANK (and this is true in the game, too). It just doesn't speed GANK.

The Doct0r
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.09.28 14:51:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Broska
What he said Cool

Would you like me to go on?


After reading this thread, I get the impression that the only ones who don't like the nanoships are those that have been caught out by one.

If ppl stopped whining so much & used their brains, you will see so many setups out there to counter a nano.

Adapt and learn or you'll be left on the scrap heap whilst the rest of the community goes out and enjoys themselves Laughing

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2007.09.28 15:43:00 - [70]
 

People's problem is not that they get killed by nanoships but that they can't kill nanoships themselves with their standard F1-Fx setup. This is the problem with whiners, they feel that they should be able to take on everything with their own setup. This is not how Eve works.

It's not hard to run from a nanoship, it can't web you without being in web range itself so they can't really engage at a gate 'cause you would just move back to the gate and jump through. They can attack in belts, yes, but then again, those people will be npc'ing anyway and if they didn't get out in time it was really their fault. Even there, nanoships will have a hard time to break a ratting ship unless it has weak resists or if they bring a large gang (in which case they would have won anyway)

In case of a nanogang vs normal gang, well yes they can run, but they can't kill you. I think there should be options to avoid large blobs, which is really only possible with nanoships or cloaking ships.

Speedtanking already saw its usefulness decline with the nano nerf (much needed though) and overheated webs, I expect alot of trouble from the new neutralizer craze as well, at least when attacking battleships.

Yes they are still hard to catch, but then again they can't really kill stuff on their own either. The only thing that worries me is that the race that should be the speed/guerilla warfare race is actually not that great at it because its main weapons depend on tracking, making other races very viable and perhaps even better for speed setups as well.

There are plenty of other options to 'avoid' and pick the fights, like some people say that only nanogangs can. Heavy ECM or dampening works fine too, even against nanoships. If you can damp a nanoship to below 13 km range, it won't ever be able to attack without getting in web range. In a way, a good tank is a method of picking fights as well. People in a nanoship would be crazy to attack a well tanking battlecruiser. Scouting properly is another way of picking fights.

In the end it just comes down to "WAAAH I can't kill you, even though you can't kill me either and you trained and fitted specifically to be able to pick your targets. NERF!"

Drek Grapper
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.09.28 15:48:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: Drek Grapper on 28/09/2007 15:48:40
Originally by: Borasao


Actually, even according to your description, the Vaga DOES speed TANK (and this is true in the game, too). It just doesn't speed GANK.


Saying a ship 'speed tanks' is probably not the correct term anyways. 'Speed tanked' ships mitigate incomming damage using speed.

They don't tank the damage they lessen incomming damage to an acceptable level...once damage is caused it is not healed (only through natural recharge). Hence damage is caused not tanked - and mitigated through speed.

Illyria Ambri
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.28 15:57:00 - [72]
 

Balance Extreme Speeds

Add your thoughts to The Need for Brakes Initiative

Trishan
Green Men Incorporated
Posted - 2007.09.28 15:58:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: d026
the problems with the current nano*** are:
1. speeds are to high for the server & client to handle. if you see your enemy at 500m the instance you activate your webs he will be at 50k due to sync issues/delay. this happens way to often and is extremely anoying. eve is not a fps game!


The other party is equally affected. As I posted somewhere else overview updates far too slowly than it did before. Coincidentally when this slowness was added people reported increased fps. Its unbelievable that, to this day, eve cannot put a damn different number 85 times in a second.

Nobuo213
Gallente
Mutually Assured Destruction
Dark Matter Coalition
Posted - 2007.09.28 16:07:00 - [74]
 

Nano ships and cloaks are both fine,but people still complain. Welcome to the internet,a place where someone is always complaining about something one way or another.

Nikolas Wade
Posted - 2007.09.28 18:01:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: arbalesttom
Originally by: Rudy Metallo
Edited by: Rudy Metallo on 28/09/2007 10:51:42
CCP didn't want to COMPLETELY nerf nanos.

They just didnt want zeroh zipping around at 11km/s in a battleship.

Originally by: d026
the problems with the current nano*** are:

1. speeds are to high for the server & client to handle. if you see your enemy at 500m the instance you activate your webs he will be at 50k due to sync issues/delay. this happens way to often and is extremely anoying. eve is not a fps game!

2. usualy you need at least 2 ships per nanoship to catch it effectively. rapier/huginn & arazu/lachesis. imho this shows how nanofits ar a little bit to ueber. if you only bring a huggin they warp out imediately (inertia on those ships let them almost instawarp).

3. only being able to catch a standard nanofit with 2 extremely dedicated ships is plain wrong in the first place. especially considerig how common speedfits are still today.



1. I havent noticed this

2. Yes, true enough, but the point is he's not killing you at the same time, as they used to be.

If you really wanna **** nanos over, then get a 12km DG web. Its a measly 5m or less, and in a gang it's worth it (although solo it's definatly not).


Sure, you buy it for me?


Typical mentality of a 'nerf this' whiner, wants everything done for him "nano-ships are too overpowered, I can't figured out that I can use ecm to break their locks and get away, so CCP plz nerf teh ebil nanos again so I can win in the only setup I'm willing to fit on my pvp caracal!!11"

Necromancer D
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.09.28 18:36:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Necromancer D on 28/09/2007 18:45:02
It should also be noted that the OP has attempted to use nano-ships himself but could never really accomplish this himself, so I guess due to his failure at nano-ships he insist that because he can't use them effectively that no one should either;
http://eve-search.com/thread/595960/page/

Further research into the op's forum activities point out that he always wants things to be 'easy' and even admits to being to lazy to calculate or test pvp situation out for himself:
http://eve-search.com/search/author/arbalesttom/

In conclusion I say CCP should not nerf nanoships, but indeed nerf arbalesttom's ability to make 'OMG NERF THIS!!!' threads on the forum. It would benefit everyone in the community by saving wasted server space, bandwidth, and time reading his ridiculous whines.

Edit: made links clickable.

Dreadpilot Roberts
Ministry of War
Posted - 2007.09.28 19:28:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Kamikaze Loco
Originally by: arbalesttom

are you ******ED? who are you going to web if the nanoships orbit at 20? NO ONE


Go back to pvp in your caracal and stop the whine pls. You just make yourself look like an idiot on the forum. Evil or Very Mad


/signed

Father Weebles
Celestial Refraction
Posted - 2007.09.28 20:40:00 - [78]
 

Nano pilots with snakes and rigs have a lot more to lsoe than your average newb bs ratter. LG Snake Set now costs about a bil w/o the Omega. Add Polycarbon rigs, the ship itself and fittings. 1.25b isk versus your your raven that costs 50mil to lose after insurance.

Thrus
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.09.28 20:44:00 - [79]
 

Not a PvPer so this may not work well but why not bring someone in your corp that doesn't have implants and have them bring a Celestis with 3 damps? Easy to fit and fairly cheap. little risk in clone costs as young piolets can fly them. you say 20km is the range you need them in that with crap skills would be a 3x tech 1 damps 35% and ship bonus of 10% just being able to fly it, should get them up close. keep the celestis close to a person that will web/kill the nano. added perk the new guy in the corp gets to be part of the action and have some fun.

nope not perfect and requires a gang, but if you want to solo them as has been said before they dislike BS with a heavy neut on them.

know your area if nanos are common bring the needed things to counter nanos.

MITSUK0
Posted - 2007.09.28 22:35:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: MITSUK0 on 28/09/2007 22:36:52
Edit, cause im bored of this arguement.

In short: Nano ships are good at killing idiots. Idiots are good at moaning.

Mortuus
Minmatar
Divine Power.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2007.09.28 22:55:00 - [81]
 

Things that make my Vaga run...

Damps, Webs, Neuts, anything that boosts Damps or Webs, ECM, being tracking Disrupted while a Webbing ceptor comes for me. Having the enemy actually have a friend or two usually drives me off as well....


SOoo...I pay out the nose for a ship that can pick fights, you could at least use part of your brain using those simple counters. Oh well, your NPC tanked Raven doesn't do so well in PvP, get over it.

Sauromugue
Posted - 2007.09.28 23:42:00 - [82]
 

This is the cancer that's killing Eve-O forums.

Elmicker
Wreckless Abandon
Posted - 2007.09.28 23:51:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Elmicker on 28/09/2007 23:52:11
Originally by: Broska
1. Set up cost.


And? CCP have said time and again that isk should not guarantee invulnerability, resulting in repeated supercapital nerfs.

Quote:
That's alot of skills simply to fly one effectively.


Not.. really. That's just the skills you need for any other ship. The skill requirements for the nano varient of the ship are exactly the same + 1.5mil in navigation to max your speed and maneuverability. 1.5mil extra SP should not transform your ship from a semi-decent dps dealer/tanker into an all-round solo pwnmobile.

Quote:
3. Pilot Skill


You're right here, mind you. But then it could also be a reason why they ARE overpowered. A top-class pilot can avoid death just as easily as a ****ty pilot can fly head first into it.

Quote:
4. Overheated Webs


An overheated web is still only 13.3km. You'd have to be semi-nano fitted yourself just to keep the web on the target long enough to get it down to reasonable speeds, and even then, with only 1 web on, it's likely to be doing several hundred m/s. Most nano ships are not piloted by idiots. They will either be hugging a gate, or be a ridiculous distance away, aligned out. It becomes a requirement to have a nanoship or 12 of your own to pin down their nanoships, as interceptors are just paper thin.

Quote:
6. DPS



Nanoishtar is 475 DPS. DPS ishtar is 685dps. However, their tanks are a difference of a mere 3 slots, and the 685 dps version must operate within web range, so will likely be dead within a couple of kills.

You are right that most on-paper DPS numbers for nanoships are balls; this is especially the case with the vagabond. However, this is the reason the vagabond is balanced; it MUST drop its speed and put itself at risk to engage, the same as any other ship. It's speed "invulnerability" only extends to travelling and the initial range dictation and disengagement. The real problem lies with ships such as the typhoon, dominix and ishtar, who use tracking-less weapons such as drones, missiles and neut/nos to do their actual on-paper dps, while still lolling along at several km/s.

MITSUK0
Posted - 2007.09.29 00:05:00 - [84]
 

Nano ishtars are useles solo vs anyone with a webber and half decent dps/tank (kill his drones, he cant scoop launch while hes nano***ging around at 20km range).

Pretty good in gangs though but in gang situations there are lots of counters and your anti support guys/intys can **** drones if needed.

arbalesttom
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.29 00:24:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Elmicker
Edited by: Elmicker on 28/09/2007 23:52:11
Originally by: Broska
1. Set up cost.


And? CCP have said time and again that isk should not guarantee invulnerability, resulting in repeated supercapital nerfs.

Quote:
That's alot of skills simply to fly one effectively.


Not.. really. That's just the skills you need for any other ship. The skill requirements for the nano varient of the ship are exactly the same + 1.5mil in navigation to max your speed and maneuverability. 1.5mil extra SP should not transform your ship from a semi-decent dps dealer/tanker into an all-round solo pwnmobile.

Quote:
3. Pilot Skill


You're right here, mind you. But then it could also be a reason why they ARE overpowered. A top-class pilot can avoid death just as easily as a ****ty pilot can fly head first into it.

Quote:
4. Overheated Webs


An overheated web is still only 13.3km. You'd have to be semi-nano fitted yourself just to keep the web on the target long enough to get it down to reasonable speeds, and even then, with only 1 web on, it's likely to be doing several hundred m/s. Most nano ships are not piloted by idiots. They will either be hugging a gate, or be a ridiculous distance away, aligned out. It becomes a requirement to have a nanoship or 12 of your own to pin down their nanoships, as interceptors are just paper thin.

Quote:
6. DPS



Nanoishtar is 475 DPS. DPS ishtar is 685dps. However, their tanks are a difference of a mere 3 slots, and the 685 dps version must operate within web range, so will likely be dead within a couple of kills.

You are right that most on-paper DPS numbers for nanoships are balls; this is especially the case with the vagabond. However, this is the reason the vagabond is balanced; it MUST drop its speed and put itself at risk to engage, the same as any other ship. It's speed "invulnerability" only extends to travelling and the initial range dictation and disengagement. The real problem lies with ships such as the typhoon, dominix and ishtar, who use tracking-less weapons such as drones, missiles and neut/nos to do their actual on-paper dps, while still lolling along at several km/s.


/signed!

At last, i already gave up hope that people with brains and EXPERIENCE would post something usefull and, above all, verry true.

The reason nano's needs to be nerfed is, if they cant kill it, they always can get away. They can pick any fight. Even IF a nanoship warps trough your gate, camped with some friends with huginns/rapiers, the guy will likely get out/to the gate before any of the dual sensorboosted rapier/huginns get a lock (thanks to the awesome locking lag etc). If the nanopilot decides to do otherwise, hes a dumb, dumb pilot. That has to do with the pilot, and nothing with the, already proven, new I-WIN nano setups.

Yes, a nanoship isnt cheap, but if you put alot of money in it, it should be verry verry good, not uncatchable/immortal (if piloted by a pilot that knows the drill).

Slaatibartfast
Forty Two
Posted - 2007.09.29 01:08:00 - [86]
 

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Looks like you could use some help there.

hellsknights
Element 115.
Posted - 2007.09.29 01:49:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: d026
the problems with the current nano*** are:

1. speeds are to high for the server & client to handle. if you see your enemy at 500m the instance you activate your webs he will be at 50k due to sync issues/delay. this happens way to often and is extremely anoying. eve is not a fps game!

2. usualy you need at least 2 ships per nanoship to catch it effectively. rapier/huginn & arazu/lachesis. imho this shows how nanofits ar a little bit to ueber. if you only bring a huggin they warp out imediately (inertia on those ships let them almost instawarp).

3. only being able to catch a standard nanofit with 2 extremely dedicated ships is plain wrong in the first place. especially considerig how common speedfits are still today.



You my friend are an idiot, what your saying makes no sense.
Maybe you need a better internet connection or a better computer.

When a ship is 500m from me and i activate my web he does not nano away to 50k
due to sync issues??????

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2007.09.29 02:06:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Elmicker
The real problem lies with ships such as the typhoon, dominix and ishtar, who use tracking-less weapons such as drones, missiles and neut/nos to do their actual on-paper dps, while still lolling along at several km/s.


Yes, but unlike the short-range Ishtar (scoop & redeploy), the nano-Ishtar's DPS is destructible. I don't see many nano-Dominixies, anyway... and nano-phoons have been really nerfed significantly.

Originally by: arbalesttom

The reason nano's needs to be nerfed is, if they cant kill it, they always can get away. They can pick any fight. Even IF a nanoship warps trough your gate, camped with some friends with huginns/rapiers, the guy will likely get out/to the gate before any of the dual sensorboosted rapier/huginns get a lock (thanks to the awesome locking lag etc). If the nanopilot decides to do otherwise, hes a dumb, dumb pilot. That has to do with the pilot, and nothing with the, already proven, new I-WIN nano setups.



How do you explain the fact that nanoships die on a daily basis, and we're talking about nano-ships flown by experienced and capable pilots? Fact is, you suck at catching them.

At any rate, yes, your 50 man camp lags up so badly it allows the guy to get back to the gate. Even that wouldn't be a problem, but... you really, really need to know another thing about camping gates.

d026
temp holding
Posted - 2007.09.29 02:08:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: hellsknights
Originally by: d026
the problems with the current nano*** are:

1. speeds are to high for the server & client to handle. if you see your enemy at 500m the instance you activate your webs he will be at 50k due to sync issues/delay. this happens way to often and is extremely anoying. eve is not a fps game!

2. usualy you need at least 2 ships per nanoship to catch it effectively. rapier/huginn & arazu/lachesis. imho this shows how nanofits ar a little bit to ueber. if you only bring a huggin they warp out imediately (inertia on those ships let them almost instawarp).

3. only being able to catch a standard nanofit with 2 extremely dedicated ships is plain wrong in the first place. especially considerig how common speedfits are still today.



You my friend are an idiot, what your saying makes no sense.
Maybe you need a better internet connection or a better computer.

When a ship is 500m from me and i activate my web he does not nano away to 50k
due to sync issues??????


do some pvp and tell me how often you manage to actually web a nanoship.


hellsknights
Element 115.
Posted - 2007.09.29 02:17:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: d026
Originally by: hellsknights
Originally by: d026
the problems with the current nano*** are:

1. speeds are to high for the server & client to handle. if you see your enemy at 500m the instance you activate your webs he will be at 50k due to sync issues/delay. this happens way to often and is extremely anoying. eve is not a fps game!

2. usualy you need at least 2 ships per nanoship to catch it effectively. rapier/huginn & arazu/lachesis. imho this shows how nanofits ar a little bit to ueber. if you only bring a huggin they warp out imediately (inertia on those ships let them almost instawarp).

3. only being able to catch a standard nanofit with 2 extremely dedicated ships is plain wrong in the first place. especially considerig how common speedfits are still today.



You my friend are an idiot, what your saying makes no sense.
Maybe you need a better internet connection or a better computer.

When a ship is 500m from me and i activate my web he does not nano away to 50k
due to sync issues??????


do some pvp and tell me how often you manage to actually web a nanoship.





LOL are you serious, damn i come to your home system "BWF" and kill'
quite a few of your alliance and friends.

Maybe your busy mining in deep 0.0 or ratting for that matter.

Is it hard to web a nano ship in a reg slow ship...yes it is.

Is it hard to web a ship going 1500ms in a reg slow ship??? yes it is.

You stated he is 500m from you then 50k, what kinda fittings are they using cause i want some.

So get out of your Raven/Drake and fly something a bit faster and maybe you will
have a better chance on webbing something.


Do people complain that some ships do to much DPS? no they seem to like it.
The only nano ship that reaches 5500ms+ is a Vaga, a non "snake" fit on an
ishtar or other Hac's don't go past 4000m/s and that my friend is not nerf
worthy.



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