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blankseplocked The End of Macro Miners
 
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Ethan Kel
shadow and flame
Arcane Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.26 17:20:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Ethan Kel on 26/09/2007 17:33:32

Hello ;

I have played this game for a number of years and have studied the problem of macro miners from many sides.

IMHO attemtping to develop programming to identify them presents many difficulties, mainly defeating AI in their Programming.

I think a possible, easy solution is to offer a new heading in the online petitions icon.

This new heading might be titled "Macro Miner Bounties".

Under this heading any one playing the game could report their findings of Macro Miners and receive a bounty for them. And the Macro Miners them selves would be perma-banned.

The problem must be solved. There is just way to much competition between them and people honestly mining.

Lets make the EULA work in this example and reinforce players beleif in the EULA and it's application and practice within the game.

At the same time, to prevent false reports, fines for false reporting would be incorporated as well.

This would also be a great new avenue for isk making opportunites.

As many countires in real life use an amber alert system, this same concept of utilizing a player base to help solve problems might also open up other areas along the same lines.

Ethan

Maxpie
Metaphysical Utopian Society Explorations
Posted - 2007.09.26 17:24:00 - [2]
 

I don't think the problem is that CCP does not know who they are, they are constantly being petitioned. While I wouldn't mind getting isk every time I report them, they won't go away unless CCP takes action. That appears to be where the breakdown is atm.

Eeontasia
Posted - 2007.09.26 17:33:00 - [3]
 

if CCP is willing to make a drastic step they can just ban chinese IPs. they have their own EVE server there now, there is no reason for them to play here, so that shouldn't be a problem. i know of several MMOs where western and European IPs are banned from the asian servers. i know they can try and mask their IP, but its easy to detect if somebody is doing that.

LeGlt
Caldari
Posted - 2007.09.26 18:05:00 - [4]
 

ISK farmers wil lnever go away - even if my a miracle macro mining's repeated strokes are detected, cheap human labour in china and their **** poor human rights laws means manned miners will be on the scene farming, so in the end it wouldn't solve much.

The best you can do is join macrointel on the in-game chat and gang with a few other guys to wtfpwnbbq them and maybe steal their loot for a quick profit whilst you're at it Twisted Evil

Washell Olivaw
Posted - 2007.09.26 20:03:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Ethan Kel
At the same time, to prevent false reports, fines for false reporting would be incorporated as well.


Right, because any player can tell, without fail, who's macroing and who's a low paid worker doing a job.

It's not illegal by law or EULA to mine, rat or mission 16 hours a day as long as it's not done with a macro. If an account is on 23/7, well, no human can survive on 1 hour a night so those can be banned on the basis of sharing. They can only ban the farmers if they can trace the cash to an ISK seller. You can make tracing the cash difficult by repeatedly and with different characters buy and sell on the market and the contract system. Thus actually buying from and selling to legitimate players along the way.

Would you like to be banned because you, unknowingly, sold a CNR to a farmer?

Ellaine TashMurkon
CBC Interstellar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2007.09.26 20:19:00 - [6]
 

In fact, people alreday report maco miners whenever they have suspicions.

Reggie Stoneloader
Poofdinkles
Posted - 2007.09.27 02:01:00 - [7]
 

But manned farming is not a violation of the EULA, it's the isk selling that's punishable. It's a difficult issue to address, and CCP has apparently decided that their resources are better spent elsewhere for the most part.

The easiest solution is for everyone to just stop buying isk.

Mr Cleann
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2007.09.27 21:59:00 - [8]
 

CCP will not get rid of the macroers. They are paying accounts and as such CCP will lose money. So Like it or not. They are here to stay.Evil or Very Mad

Mr Cleann
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2007.09.27 22:00:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader
But manned farming is not a violation of the EULA, it's the isk selling that's punishable. It's a difficult issue to address, and CCP has apparently decided that their resources are better spent elsewhere for the most part.

The easiest solution is for everyone to just stop buying isk.


Agreed, that would be the best way. But unfortunatly that wont happen.

Mech Cannonade
Gallente
Posted - 2007.09.28 15:56:00 - [10]
 

Why not code the system to see that someone has mined an area for 8 hours straight, then perhaps toss in some really tough rats to deal with him.

If it's a real player and he sees rats, he'll tuck tail, turn and find another spot.

Bottom line, this is impossible to code against every single macro system so some creativity needs to be used.

Make areas become more dangerous the more it's mined and such. Add in elements that require human thought processes to adjust to the situation.

Plekto
Freedom United Consolidations - Inter Terrestrial
United For 0rder
Posted - 2007.09.28 22:45:00 - [11]
 

Let's look at the China/etc farmers. How does this work?

- They get a trial account or pay for one.
- They mine minerals and make ISK.
- They sell those isk for timecards to raise cash and pay for more hours of mining.

There are two areas that this scenario is easily attackable.
1: Trial accounts cannot and should not be able to transfer items to another character. EVER. This is a problem because trial accounts are free and so they can make 10-15 million and get another account. This makes it economically viable for those without money to get the farming started(China/etc). If you have to pay for a real account to transfer items, then that means more money up-front for the farmers.

Also, when the trial is over, they should get a few skill books or an upgraded ship or something for their joining for real, but all other assets disappear. 0 isk, 0 minerals, 0 BPOs. Since trial accounts can't transfer items, that hole is plugged.

2:The other problem is time cards. People in China don't have access to credit cards for the most part(or it's easy to tell that it's coming from China). But with enough ISK, they can buy someone else's time card code and be good for months. Essentially you can play forever right now without actually paying a dime out of your pocket.

If there were no time cards, you would have no way to play except for some sort of ID verified method(Verisign/whatever they find is good). It would become too costly to get an account and make a profit, so they would move elsewhere.

You don't need to make them gone, you just need to make it more profitable to go elsewhere.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2007.09.28 23:36:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Plekto
Let's look at the China/etc farmers. How does this work?

- They get a trial account or pay for one.
- They mine minerals and make ISK.
- They sell those isk for timecards to raise cash and pay for more hours of mining.

There are two areas that this scenario is easily attackable.
1: Trial accounts cannot and should not be able to transfer items to another character. EVER. This is a problem because trial accounts are free and so they can make 10-15 million and get another account. This makes it economically viable for those without money to get the farming started(China/etc). If you have to pay for a real account to transfer items, then that means more money up-front for the farmers.

Also, when the trial is over, they should get a few skill books or an upgraded ship or something for their joining for real, but all other assets disappear. 0 isk, 0 minerals, 0 BPOs. Since trial accounts can't transfer items, that hole is plugged.

2:The other problem is time cards. People in China don't have access to credit cards for the most part(or it's easy to tell that it's coming from China). But with enough ISK, they can buy someone else's time card code and be good for months. Essentially you can play forever right now without actually paying a dime out of your pocket.

If there were no time cards, you would have no way to play except for some sort of ID verified method(Verisign/whatever they find is good). It would become too costly to get an account and make a profit, so they would move elsewhere.

You don't need to make them gone, you just need to make it more profitable to go elsewhere.


Let's see what yoour soi bright idea means (aside all the preconcepts based on the player area of origin):

1:
Quote:
Trial accounts cannot and should not be able to transfer items to another character
translate to: trial account players should not have access to market. no selling and (as it is a form of item transfert) no buying items. So they should play the full time oof the trial with the noobship or the ship given out in the rookie missions. Scratch any true new player staying more than 3 days.

Quote:
Also, when the trial is over, they should get a few skill books or an upgraded ship or something for their joining for real, but all other assets disappear. 0 isk, 0 minerals, 0 BPOs. Since trial accounts can't transfer items, that hole is plugged.
: so someone has endured 15 days of your horrid option as intro to the game and then it is cheated of allhe has produced. He will have exactly the same things that a charachert that rested all the time is station would have got.

2:
Quote:
The other problem is time cards. People in China don't have access to credit cards for the most part(or it's easy to tell that it's coming from China).
Nice mass of preconcepts. Are you vaguely aware that Hong Kong and Singapore are is China? No credit cards? Very Happy You think that the China server subscriptions are payed with cash?

Beside people paying with isk, Time Cards are used by a lot of players to pay less, as the sybscription in US dollars cost almost 30% lessthan in euro thanks to the money exchange rate and that is paying the VAT, something that most people don't do.

To redo your last phrase: You don't need to make them gone, you just need to make not profitable for CCP to run EVE.

Spoon Thumb
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Vanguard Imperium
Posted - 2007.09.29 17:53:00 - [13]
 


Shouldn't eve be non-repetitive, and no parts of the game so dull as to be easily broken down into a mechanical process?

ninjaholic
Gallente
House Aratus
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2007.09.29 23:10:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Eeontasia
if CCP is willing to make a drastic step they can just ban chinese IPs. they have their own EVE server there now, there is no reason for them to play here, so that shouldn't be a problem... (edit)


People who macro aren't just Chinese people. That's a stereotype. Realistically, there are macro mining ISK selling companies in the States and Europe who have people from any nationality working for them, not to mention people who macro mine just because they couldn't be arsed doing manual mining in the first place. They don't have to be Chinese. What you're proposing is a bit drastic, and I personally don't think CCP would go that far, nor would most people unless the situation got completely out of hand, which I don't know if it has yet.

Jason Travers
Space 1999
Posted - 2007.09.30 02:24:00 - [15]
 

Well contrary to some popular beliefs. Not everyone knows what a macro is. When I mine I will stay in one place as I move my ore barge into a range were I can target multiple roids with out having to move. This is because I use a jet-can to transfer the ore to my industrial (yes I 2box). People still consistently confuse me for a macro though I will have a can labeled; NO IíM NOT A MACRO AND IíM WATCHING YOU! They tend to assume that because youíre mining and 2boxing you are a macro so they start off ramming ships and such. This goes on until I ask in the local channel what their problem is. Then it is the standard answer: I thought you were a macro.

It would be nice if some of them would get smart and maybe ask before they assume that someone is a macro. Because for one thing a macro doesnít talk back.

Petrothian Tong
Gallente
Posted - 2007.09.30 08:05:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Petrothian Tong on 30/09/2007 08:06:08
for the 299929929282 time:

-Blocking IPs: ever heard of proxies?

-Petition bounty: no thanks, no need to encourage the witch hunt, and besides, everybody and their mother already petitions anyone who they suspect of being a macro anyways.

-Macros: Most of the time, it is not an macro, there is some guy controlling it. getting proof that he is using 3rd party program is CCP's job.

havnt been mentioned in the thread but:

-nerfing NPC corps: farmers will just jump pc corps, or rotates, hell, they already have guards in 0.0 already... I once had 8 ravens on me after nuking a group of covetors with bombs =P

in the end, you just decrease the quality of legit players


the BEST solution is: make isk buying a stigma...

name and shame isk buyers, and ban them when they can...

if they REALLY need to buy isk, point them to the game time card way...


but yeah, so long as there is people buying isk, the farmers WILL find a way to provide it.


remember, their next meal is on the line here, and as one of life's lesson many people should learn already:

"Never fight over food with a man whos hungrier than you are, cause he just wants it alot more than you. and will knee you in the groin repeatedly to get it. "






edit: Jason, I feel your pain...


and yeah, to macro "hunters": any one in barges is a macro...

they might say sorry after they ganked ya and looted ya though.."woopise.. sorry about that"...



Mech Cannonade
Gallente
Posted - 2007.10.01 12:46:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Spoon Thumb

Shouldn't eve be non-repetitive, and no parts of the game so dull as to be easily broken down into a mechanical process?



Hear Hear!

Ellaine TashMurkon
CBC Interstellar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2007.10.01 13:35:00 - [18]
 

Its very very simple :)
Limit roid respawn rate, make mining faster.
Less roids = harder to find a place to mine = more time spent searching/fighting for resources.
Faster mining = easier to get roids when you find them = since it doesnt take much time, its less important if someone does it with macro or not.

And searching and fighting cannot be macroed too well.


 

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