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Hellaciouss
Genco
Posted - 2007.09.29 12:37:00 - [31]
 



There is an extremely easily solution to combating blobs in 0.0. It's called staying in lowsec.

Petrothian Tong
Gallente
Posted - 2007.09.30 08:16:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Petrothian Tong on 30/09/2007 08:16:57
I like....


hell, I am all for all ships doing splash dmg when going pop,

the deberis and reactor doing dmg to everything nearby...


but yeah,

I am thinking along the lines of the dmg/distance being related to Sig radius and Cap...

-higher sig radius of ship = larger AOE

-dmg = say... (remaining cap / max cap) X fixed dmg number depending on class...

but a BS blowing up SHOULD take out a frig thats sitting right on top of it...


as for the drone comment,

well, if you really want to not nerf drones, add in the sigrad/exp radius (seperate) or the exp velocity thing


so that smaller stuff take less dmg..

but I still think a BS going kaboom should atleast cripple a frig sitting 10 m of it =P


edit: just throwing equations around to make things more interesting...

Mr Broker
Posted - 2007.09.30 08:50:00 - [33]
 

when "squad/wing" warping, one shoudl be able to select a formation.

Lost True
Caldari
Paradise project
Posted - 2007.09.30 16:57:00 - [34]
 

Well... If all ships in fleet before destruction cause that..."consequence", that can be bad for another gang members, few explosions in same time can cause chain reaction... Howewer, maybe if that's be something like self-destruction by will of a pilot... When your ship is on a structure and scrambled, you can overload your warp reactor and bring down someone(or something) near you... Power of that explosion depends on ship's size(class, or type of warp core)... I can tell, final retaliation in hopeless situation :)
And with the "boarding" concept on this forum, it's can have some very good use...;)

Dracon Zethera
Gallente
Quantum Industries
Posted - 2007.09.30 18:02:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Lost True
Well... If all ships in fleet before destruction cause that..."consequence", that can be bad for another gang members, few explosions in same time can cause chain reaction... Howewer, maybe if that's be something like self-destruction by will of a pilot... When your ship is on a structure and scrambled, you can overload your warp reactor and bring down someone(or something) near you... Power of that explosion depends on ship's size(class, or type of warp core)... I can tell, final retaliation in hopeless situation :)
And with the "boarding" concept on this forum, it's can have some very good use...;)


It has been said many times and repeated many times that this does not happen for ever ship destruction. This is the last time I am going to say this because I am getting tired of repeating myself.

As for overloading the reactor, I think that that is more of an imbalance than what I am mentioning because it goes against what I wanted this to accomplish in the first place. The main thing I am aiming for with this is spreading out of blobs, if you choose when to have meltdowns then it takes the point away that you can get damaged by a friendly meltdown which is suppose to spread out the blob.

I will say it one more time. Not every ship will have a meltdown upon destruction. The probability will be somewhere between 1% and .1%. There will be no chain reactions because the odds of probability are agaist it.

Kazuma Saruwatari
Posted - 2007.09.30 18:30:00 - [36]
 

"People are afraid of change"


Rolling Eyes

Lost True
Caldari
Paradise project
Posted - 2007.10.01 13:24:00 - [37]
 

Well... i was thinking about that today. high propability of meltdown when a ship is on a structure, but player can control his status. For example, lower the energy, that will cause a reduction in cap, speed, maybe effectiveness of some modules...player even can shutdown his/her reactor. This procedure takes some time. Or player can throw a unstable core right in the space in no time...Ship will initiate a warp about 2 minutes on full speed and small capacitor with wery slow recharge. This auxilary power allow you to fire weapons (strange for lasers, but a don't thing Amarrs will be pleased by this Smile) and passive modules... Engines will be effective on 50%-70% Very Happy until you have a new reactor...Laughing

Dracon Zethera
Gallente
Quantum Industries
Posted - 2007.10.05 22:57:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Lost True
Well... i was thinking about that today. high propability of meltdown when a ship is on a structure, but player can control his status. For example, lower the energy, that will cause a reduction in cap, speed, maybe effectiveness of some modules...player even can shutdown his/her reactor. This procedure takes some time. Or player can throw a unstable core right in the space in no time...Ship will initiate a warp about 2 minutes on full speed and small capacitor with wery slow recharge. This auxilary power allow you to fire weapons (strange for lasers, but a don't thing Amarrs will be pleased by this Smile) and passive modules... Engines will be effective on 50%-70% Very Happy until you have a new reactor...Laughing


I will say it again. The point of this isn't to be used as a weapon, it is used to keep ships from forming blobs. This would barely help the blob problem if at all. So no, you I remain with my position on keeping it random and not player controlled.

xOm3gAx
Caldari
Stain of Mind
Posted - 2007.10.06 02:45:00 - [39]
 

i like it i like it alot =)

Law Enforcer
Still Undecided
Posted - 2007.10.06 03:40:00 - [40]
 

so what happens when you destroy a amarr mothership or titan which obviously would wield massive and probably numerous antimatter reactors Shocked supernova?

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.10.06 06:29:00 - [41]
 

People would have to get a tool so they can spread out then. As stated somewher ein this thread, when you gangwarp, you all enter the grid in a small bubble of ships.

People would have to be able to scatter around even before they arrive at the battle, which at the time barely the case.

Core-meltdowns wouldnt stop people of forming blobs, because they will still appear on the battlefield as a blob, and in the heat of an engagement you are mostly occupied with lag, aligning and shooting and wont have time to scatter around.

Law Enforcer
Still Undecided
Posted - 2007.10.06 08:15:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Batolemaeus
People would have to get a tool so they can spread out then. As stated somewher ein this thread, when you gangwarp, you all enter the grid in a small bubble of ships.

People would have to be able to scatter around even before they arrive at the battle, which at the time barely the case.

Core-meltdowns wouldnt stop people of forming blobs, because they will still appear on the battlefield as a blob, and in the heat of an engagement you are mostly occupied with lag, aligning and shooting and wont have time to scatter around.


exactly and when you get wtfpwnbbq'd you won't try spamming the grid with a gang warp again.
people will be afraid of fleet warfare because they'd have nightmares about their buddies reactor going critical.

Khanak Hryad
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.10.06 14:32:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Khanak Hryad on 05/11/2007 21:56:24
Wow, I didn't even see this thread when I made my own on a topic close to this. The link is EDIT: (no longer) in my sig...

My idea, very similar to this, involves ships exploding and doing AOE damage. Plain and simple, if you are in the midst of 50 ships all within bout 5-10km, and you happen to die, you do damage to everyone around you. Unlike this thread's idea, the explosion would happen every time (going for realism here)

Not necessarily trying to make a new feature, simply making the current feature (umm...ship explosions?) actually real. It's always bothered me that I can explode and do nothing to those around me (same with missiles, but that's another topic). With this AOE effect of my ship getting popped, it would force those who blob to either spread out or take the damage of an exploding comrade.

Now, someone in my thread mentioned this as "handing the Goons a new toy" and I can see where that's headed: send a handful of nano BS's into your enemy's fleet and wait to get popped. Simply put, this is not a bad thing: provides new tactic for the boring fleet battles. You would either be forced to run away from the approaching ship or have to have a group of pilots dedicated to destroying oncoming vessels.

I agree with the OP where it says "The only way to get away from the blob is to add more area-damaging weapons" The only place I disagree is the percentage of this happening: I think this should happen every time, and not just with ships, but drones and structures/turrets as well.

Now, some will rant about "OH NOES MY DRONES GO BOOM, WHIP OUT THE NERFBAT" (as seems to happen whenever someone is mad about something else...). Thing is, this is going to change tactics: thats the point. If you think about it, the drones you release and send at an enemy is a mini blob, and should not be excluded from this effect.

Now, I haven't exactly worked the calculations yet, but so far I have this:

Explosion radius (Area of damage):
Ships:
Frigate - 2 km
Destroyer - 3km
Cruiser - 5 km
Battlecruiser - 6km
Battleship - 8km
Freighter - 9km
Dreadnought - 10 km
Carrier/MOM - 13 km
Titan - 15 km
Drones:
Light/Mining - 250m
Medium - 500m
Heavy - 750m
Sentry - 1km
Fighter - 1.5km

NOTE: These categories apply to both T1 and T2 ships of the same ship class

After reading this thread, I thought about putting in race-oriented damage types/ratios, and decided to use the OP's ratios, copied here for those who are supremely lazySmile
Caldari:
EM: 50%
Thermal: 30%
Explosive:15%
Kinetic: 5%

Gallente:
EM: 10%
Thermal: 45%
Explosive: 40%
Kinetic: 5%

Amarr:
EM: 0%
Thermal: 40%
Explosive: 0%
Kinetic: 60%

Minmatar:
EM: 10%
Thermal: 35%
Explosive: 30%
Kinetic: 25%

The actual damage amount will be tricky to calculate, since I'm making it so the farther away you are, the less damage you take. Also, I don't want it so that an exploding BS can pop a BS with more than half armor, regardless of how close they are (assuming both BS have same amount of armor).

An idea in my thread is damage based on total structure. Hence (if it got out of hand) those nano-BS that run straight towards the opposing fleet wouldn't do nearly as much damage as a fully-loaded BS when they explode. This also makes it realistic (the more structure you have, the more "stuff" you have flying in every direction, making more damage).

I also want it so a ship exploding can instapop anything more three ship classes under it. Meaning, a BS should be able to instapop a frig and every drone type. Conversely, a drone or frig should barely scratch a BS or anything higher. I'll post it in my thread (maybe here too) once I finalize calculations.

I'm running out of room...

To wrap up, have a peek at my thread, comment it...or don't...

Also: Dracon, if you want to continue a discussion on this, send me a message in-game.

Freya Selene
M. Corp
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2007.10.06 14:56:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Freya Selene on 06/10/2007 15:00:08
Good writeup and thought out idee.

However i dont think it will reduce the blobs we know today. Instead they will more likely switch to racial fleets with spicific resistence setups to reduce the effects of the AoE's.

Using the numbers from the OP, Amarr would be totaly gimped and everyone would fly Minmatar.

As for drones also doing AoE damage when they go down, it will even more kill the use of smartbombs, couse if you kill a cycle of drones, it will probly hurt you more then the drones would do in the first place.

:edit:
In addition on the bold comment about a 1% or a 0.1% chance. If thats the case, it will not even be used on consideration in the current fleet operations. It would perhaps increase more use logistical support tho.

Rytaran
Caldari
Eternity's End
Posted - 2007.10.06 16:47:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Rytaran on 06/10/2007 16:52:17
*signed* I'm all for big booms and cool features. This sounds like it could be a really cool addition to the game.

I vote yes!
Rytaran

EDIT:
Quote:
so what happens when you destroy a amarr mothership or titan which obviously would wield massive and probably numerous antimatter reactors supernova?

That would be sweet!

Cerebrate Fate
Amarr
Posted - 2007.10.06 17:34:00 - [46]
 

/Signed. But what about power diag units? They could reduce the chance of a meltdown right?

Dracon Zethera
Gallente
Quantum Industries
Posted - 2007.10.07 13:17:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Dracon Zethera on 07/10/2007 13:21:20
Originally by: Law Enforcer
so what happens when you destroy a amarr mothership or titan which obviously would wield massive and probably numerous antimatter reactors Shocked supernova?


I don't think capital ships should have these. It would really suck to be fighting a captial ship for an hour, removing all their support and slowly removing its tank, just to lose half your ships in a meltdown. Capital ships would contain something that would neutralize the effects of something like that, such as the same measures used in empire.

Originally by: Freya Selene
Using the numbers from the OP, Amarr would be totaly gimped and everyone would fly Minmatar.


Well it depends on what you consider being gimped. For close range set-up Ammar ships, then yes they are getting gimped on damage they can do to the enemy, but I see most Amarr ships fight at mid or long range. With only two damage types, people can protect themselves more from Amarr meltdowns meaning they may be more prefered in the sniper fleet when considered against other races ships.

Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
Posted - 2007.10.07 14:13:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 07/10/2007 14:13:34
Make it low-sec and 0.0 only (NOT 0.0 only, low-sec needs love too) for obvious reasons and it will be fine.

I do like it though, but think 1% is a little too small to change anything, perhaps if it were 10-20% chance then people might take it seriously.

The main issue however is it discourages using Small, close-range ships against Large ships (Imagine 20 t1 frigs manage to take down a BS, only for it to explode violently and kill them all), as well as the damage it would deal to your Drones, so perhaps a Delay of some sort before your ship actually explodes? (but ONLY if it were going to meltdown. if not, it would explode normally)

Just imagine: You take down a BS with some frigs, but instead of simply popping, it starts smoking/flaming violently and a message pops up about a meltdown. Then anywhere between 10 and 60 seconds later (more than enough time to escape...), it would explode and inflict heavy damage upon anything in the vicinity (which would be anything up to 20km depending on ship size

Now, a Titan meltdown... Shocked

Remko Marr
Caldari
First And Only
Posted - 2007.10.07 18:28:00 - [49]
 

I sort of like this idea. It'll still force a blob to spread out if it's a larger ship going down, but won't be so surprising that it might compromise your task if it happens and you're nearby.

And yeah, a titan meltdown would pretty much be the most awesome spectacle ever.

Dracon Zethera
Gallente
Quantum Industries
Posted - 2007.11.05 02:34:00 - [50]
 

Bringing this back from the grave. Anyone else have some thoughts on this?

Remko Marr
Caldari
First And Only
Posted - 2007.11.05 02:47:00 - [51]
 

Not that I can think of, other than I'm glad this topic hasn't been forgotten about.

Kakita J
Placid Reborn
Posted - 2007.11.05 15:44:00 - [52]
 

More big explosions would be nice. I think the ranges for AoE damage someone posted are fairly conservative... 15km for a Titan? Their smartbombs reach about that far, and when their reactor has a melt down, there's a wee bit more energy being dispensed than when they hit their puny large officer SB.

I wouldn't really see the need to make the damage they do racial, just make it an even mix of all damage types for debris (kinetic), radiation (thermal and EM) and... err... explosion!!11 (explosive). Then racial balancing becomes irrelevant.

Oh, and please... stop with that "restricted to 0.0" stuff. I can see the logic of restricting this from high-sec for the obvious abuse potential (explained via automatic CONCORD containment fields, or something), but low sec should get access to some of the game's goodies, it's gimped badly enough compared to 0.0.

Lala Ru
Gallente
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.05 20:41:00 - [53]
 

I think that instead of a fixed percentage, it could be based on he amount of "overkill damage." Have the ship remain intact but non functioning for a few seconds after the structure hits 0. Unless the enemy realizes and switches off his weapons, the ship is going to take a few extra hits. This "overkill damage" will determine the possibility of a reactor overload. If this was a 1 vs 1, or even a 10 vs. 1, the amount of overkill damage should be low enough that the reactor meltdown probability is quite small, perhaps even 0. However, if half the fleet is shooting one ship, it will have a much higher possibility of exploding.

Calexis Atredies
Quantum Industries
Prime Orbital Systems
Posted - 2007.11.05 22:29:00 - [54]
 

Like the idea but I can see some massive exploits behind this, the abbility to cause a chain reaction would have people suiciding their ships into blobs hoping to cause some damage. Much like Sir Francis Drake using burning galleys against the spanish armada... just this would probably happen outside moon 4 in jita tooYARRRR!!

Altaica Amur
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2007.11.05 23:39:00 - [55]
 

This seems like a good idea to me, though I fear that with it only happening 1% of the time it wouldn't have enough of an effect for anyone to care, 10% seems fine to me without invoking the problems of chain reactions in anything but the densest blobs, which is sorta the point anyways. For the rest of the time having a 20% chance of doing a burst ECM effect or a 10-20% chance of neutralizing some nearby cap would also be useful. Though for the ecm burst effect I'd think that it would also make it difficult for ships at any range to target nearby ships.

As for encouraging ideas of flanking and tactical manuvering into EVE there would have to be some sort of accounting for varying degrees of armor and/or weapons coverage. For example you can look to Homeworld you can see ships with limited fields of fire and varying degrees of armor on their front, sides, tops and bottoms and rear. All these things encouraged a lot more of the wrestling for tactical positions that would reduce blobbing.

Now fields of fire would be quite difficult to impliment into EVE as things currently stand however having varying degrees of armor/shields on different sides should be possible to get by the harder tanks in the game without simply resorting to wtfpwn damage. For example a Dominix would probably work with values like this for armor and shield effectiveness.
Shields Armor
Front: 0.9 1
Sides: 0.9 0.9
Top: 0.9 0.9
Bottom: 0.9 0.85
Rear: 0.85 0.8

Shields would tend to be more uniform then armor and speedier ships for their class, with their large engines in the rear, would have larger penalties to armor and shields in the rear accounting for the difficulty in shielding or armoring open plasma vents. Different ships and races would probably have different profiles for where their best armor and shields are but the general rules of 'hard armor/shields in front' and 'weak armor/shields in the rear' would still follow.

Ramirez Dora
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.11.06 00:33:00 - [56]
 

I think every vessel should cause damage to nearby entities when they explode, BUT you have to make use of diminishing power over distance.

So let's say a carrier has a 10km explosion radius.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Question is, does Eve support this kind of diminishing damage? (bombs are full aoe etc, but should use this principle too and get a damage boost).

Ramirez Dora
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.11.06 00:42:00 - [57]
 

As for the whole Jita scare. Since this is a sci-fi game there can be such a thing as dampening. Stations (not gates) have damage dampening fields (you RP'rs can call em projected forcefields) that will prevent splash damage from those unfortunate enough to explode within 20km of the station.

Fixed.


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