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blankseplocked Mission wrecks and salvaging - asking same treatment as can stealing.
 
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Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.25 02:09:00 - [31]
 

Yes! More people to shoot. Why are you people so scared of killing looters? If your worried about their corp ganking you, just make sure you're aligned and get out if you see them incoming on your scanner.

Personally I wish more people would invade my missions.

Noig Lamaroz
Darwin's Contraptions
Posted - 2007.09.25 10:16:00 - [32]
 

Few points gathered here and there:

This ollobrains dude is advertising 'consensual pvp' in his "come and join meh merry band of mission invaders".

This consensual pvp in this case would happen due them also looting (thus flagging) and 'abusing' auto-target function of the game, baiting for mission runners to do a mistake and accidentally shooting at them.

Now, aint that a true carebear way of pvp (yep. the privateer way - way when people cant handle free pvp which it is in lowsec/nullsec)

They dont want to risk their cheap ships for flagging from salvaging and giving option for mission runner to shoot at their wish, not by mistake.

Then when it comes to salvage. It is indeed a mini-profession and there is indeed a lot of wrecks left behind by people who dont want to spend time for salvaging them.

Add option to probe out the wrecks, would make salvaging 'mini-profession' bit deeper.
Even if you'd flag from salvaging other guys wreck, if he aint there to salvage 'em himself - you really think he would be interested in fighting you for it if you did salvage 'em?

Another note, is there bug in my client - since I havent seen in ages any timers from taking something from can (even tho, I do get the warning that this and that person and his/her corporation can shoot me) - if I dont know that I can shoot someone, how would I know to shoot him even if I wanted?

And indeed, perhaps it's time to move out from "hub" systems and go elsewhere. Shame that place where I run missions aint really a hub system. But then again.. Good thing there is agents in 0.0 too, there's no worry of concord on my behalf if someone ends up to salvage my cans in my mission spot Twisted Evil

Asmosis
Posted - 2007.09.25 11:29:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Maharlika
A player should, In the eyes of the law, have a right to their wreck. There are RL laws to this effect and in times of war there always have been; there can be no doubt, from an RP perspective, that Concord would support the pirate killers rather than the moochers who try to profit from the people who do Concord's work for them. Make sense?

That's the RP perspective. Fits in with RL precedent; privateers in the age of sail and such: you kill the pirate you can keep his booty (and his ship!). From a practical standpoint it's not as easy. Its all well and good to flag someone for yanking your loot but do you really want to flag people who are just cleaning up unwanted loot? Not everyone salvages, so there is a ton of potentially valuable junk that's simply left to rot; why would someone be flagged for picking it up?


It'd be worth pointing out that under RL law as you like to put it, salvaging is a valid profession and the original owner of the ship (or the pirate/navy/whatever) that sunk it has no claim to the wreck itself. You could of course shoot the salvagers but that would get you arrested/killed (if caught).

Now from a game perspective, I support it. Flagging that is. I wholeheartedly believe you should be able to salvage someone elses wrecks without concord intervention(that would just be silly) but there should be the option of retaliation.

That makes it quite simple for the salvager, just dont salvage right in front of the other guy. I thought that would be obvious.

The guy is running missions which probably means hes not going to waste time away from missions to hunt you down in your cheap-ass destroyer, its not profitable.

Your zipping all around the system so unless he wants to try and scan you out (hes pve with no scan skills most likely) or guess which station your docking at (hell you could dump stuff in a secure can for later) and camp your pretty safe even with aggro timer.

Just stay aligned for warp. Infact thats probably not neccessary since he'll likely turn up in an unarmed salvager anyway.

Maharlika
Posted - 2007.09.25 13:03:00 - [34]
 

I was thinking less of salvage rights on modern wrecks than salvage rights for privateers who destroyed pirate or enemy combatant ships during the Age of Sail; these men became very rich and had every right to take the enemy vessel, or any part therof after they had disabled it!

Xaen
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2007.09.25 13:20:00 - [35]
 

Thieves keep saying it's a mini-profession but fail to mention the fact that without mission runners they wouldn't have anything to salvage.

The person doing the mission should obviously get first rights to everything in their mission. They were made deadspace for a reason. It's only recently that it became easy to scan out a deadspace mission.

What did they do for their "mini-profession" before that? Oh right, they were pirates, scammers and can flippers.

It's funny how on the forums it's all "mini-profession!!11ONE" and in local it's nothing but thieves bragging about stealing and rubbing it in the face of the person they're stealing from. If they're only taking stuff that's abandoned, why the **** are they stealing my salvage while I'm right there trying to salvage in a dedicated salvage boat?

Yoinx
Caldari
Chemtrail Production Inc.
Posted - 2007.09.25 18:27:00 - [36]
 

I've posted on another one of these salvage stealing threads.

I agree. Taking salvage from an active mission deadspace -SHOULD- get you flagged. However, any salvage that is not within that deadspace should be fair game. I know sometimes I turn in my missions, and salvage them. Sometimes I dont salvage them at all. Either way, if someone wants to come through and salvage, so be it. It only bothers me when I see someone salvaging while im in the mission.


Thats my opinion. Basically no salvage stealing in an active deadspace. Simple as that.

Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2007.09.25 18:38:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Yoinx
I've posted on another one of these salvage stealing threads.

I agree. Taking salvage from an active mission deadspace -SHOULD- get you flagged. However, any salvage that is not within that deadspace should be fair game. I know sometimes I turn in my missions, and salvage them. Sometimes I dont salvage them at all. Either way, if someone wants to come through and salvage, so be it. It only bothers me when I see someone salvaging while im in the mission.


Thats my opinion. Basically no salvage stealing in an active deadspace. Simple as that.


Why special treatment for deadspace mission runners, and not ratters and PvPers?

Petrothian Tong
Gallente
Posted - 2007.09.25 18:38:00 - [38]
 

argh I am getting tired of this kind of thread popping up every week!!!...

guys..

READ WHAT CCP SAID (Dev blog, and various dev posts. theres a search button to your right...)

about salvaging as a mini profession..

just do it, search for it, read the concept and the changes that made salvager's life easier...

the current system is an intended mechanic.

as annoying as those guys are, CCP intended it this way.

and personally, I honestly believe it is a way to get mission runner out into low sec/0.0 ...

it is CCP's way to nerf highsec.

so you would want to go to low/0.0 to mission, where you can pop those salvagers.


and yeah, I doubt CCP will change that any time soon.

I mean, it is helping them getting people away from highsec... by annoying them to move..


Dark Divinities
Posted - 2007.09.25 19:27:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Petrothian Tong
argh I am getting tired of this kind of thread popping up every week!!!...

guys..

READ WHAT CCP SAID (Dev blog, and various dev posts. theres a search button to your right...)

about salvaging as a mini profession..

just do it, search for it, read the concept and the changes that made salvager's life easier...

the current system is an intended mechanic.

as annoying as those guys are, CCP intended it this way.

and personally, I honestly believe it is a way to get mission runner out into low sec/0.0 ...

it is CCP's way to nerf highsec.

so you would want to go to low/0.0 to mission, where you can pop those salvagers.


and yeah, I doubt CCP will change that any time soon.

I mean, it is helping them getting people away from highsec... by annoying them to move..




LOL so why do you keep reading them? I know CCP has posted that this was planned and I don't care. CCP has been wrong before and they will be again. Sometimes all game makers design something, the people who play the game ask for a change and the game maker changes it. It happens.

I hope CCP will realize that this type of stealing doesn't add to their game and adjust their rules appropriately. If they don't, so be it... as I said in a post above, this hasn't happened to me yet and if it does I'll deal with it then.


Xaen
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2007.09.25 21:01:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Yoinx
I've posted on another one of these salvage stealing threads.

I agree. Taking salvage from an active mission deadspace -SHOULD- get you flagged. However, any salvage that is not within that deadspace should be fair game. I know sometimes I turn in my missions, and salvage them. Sometimes I dont salvage them at all. Either way, if someone wants to come through and salvage, so be it. It only bothers me when I see someone salvaging while im in the mission.


Thats my opinion. Basically no salvage stealing in an active deadspace. Simple as that.

No. I turn in the mission before I start looting so that it de-deadspaces.

Xaen
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2007.09.25 21:05:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Petrothian Tong
argh I am getting tired of this kind of thread popping up every week!!!...

guys..

READ WHAT CCP SAID (Dev blog, and various dev posts. theres a search button to your right...)

about salvaging as a mini profession..

just do it, search for it, read the concept and the changes that made salvager's life easier...

the current system is an intended mechanic.

as annoying as those guys are, CCP intended it this way.

and personally, I honestly believe it is a way to get mission runner out into low sec/0.0 ...

it is CCP's way to nerf highsec.

so you would want to go to low/0.0 to mission, where you can pop those salvagers.


and yeah, I doubt CCP will change that any time soon.

I mean, it is helping them getting people away from highsec... by annoying them to move..



CCP has said many times that a large portion of their player base are carebears. Many changes they've made to missions and mining have been made solely to improve the experience of those players.

This is one of the most loudly complained about problems. It's probably next.

Easy fix: Make scanning out deadspaces impossible
Better fix: Make a secure, trustworthy way to sell bookmarks to loot locations and change the salvage system to flag within 6 hours after the wreck is created, remove it at DT.

Anyone who actively scans out missions and starts salvaging or looting while the mission is still active is a griefing thief. Period.

Tasko Pal
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.09.25 22:00:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Dark Divinities
Originally by: Petrothian Tong
argh I am getting tired of this kind of thread popping up every week!!!...



LOL so why do you keep reading them?


Why are people who agree with you only allowed to whine in these threads?

I'm slightly in favor of the status quo since I make more isk from it (salvaging rats and gank wrecks). It's a simple mechanic to change, but I don't find the griefing factor compelling. I would support limited ownership of wreck salvage as long as we can after a certain time loot and salvage other peoples' wrecks.

Personally, I don't see why people get to "own" wrecks for the lifetime of the wreck. If you don't harvest it within a reasonable period of time (say 15 minutes after the room is cleared or rat/PC killed, at least the last 45 minutes of the wreck's life, the salvage and loot is open to the public) and it's not important to your mission, you shouldn't be able to keep it.

Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
Posted - 2007.09.25 22:20:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 25/09/2007 22:20:34
Somehow I doubt CCP is going to make it easier for you to make more ISK in safety. Here is part of the quote from CCP PrismX:

Quote:

If we end up having to chose between the salvagers right to salvage whatever he finds and the mission runners right to salvage his own loot without competition and getting rights to pwn empire salvagers, we'd probably go for the former.



The full thread that spawned it is HERE:

mdl70
Posted - 2007.09.26 01:47:00 - [44]
 

How about only you and your gang can activate the gate into the deadspace.this would solve 2 problems at once, getting more ppl into low sec space to do missions, and stop ppl salvaging your wreck unless you turn in the mission.Very Happy

Dark Divinities
Posted - 2007.09.26 03:44:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Tasko Pal


Why are people who agree with you only allowed to whine in these threads?

I'm slightly in favor of the status quo since I make more isk from it (salvaging rats and gank wrecks). It's a simple mechanic to change, but I don't find the griefing factor compelling. I would support limited ownership of wreck salvage as long as we can after a certain time loot and salvage other peoples' wrecks.

Personally, I don't see why people get to "own" wrecks for the lifetime of the wreck. If you don't harvest it within a reasonable period of time (say 15 minutes after the room is cleared or rat/PC killed, at least the last 45 minutes of the wreck's life, the salvage and loot is open to the public) and it's not important to your mission, you shouldn't be able to keep it.



I don't want only people who agree with me to post. I think I have posted "good point" and such for various people in this thread who don't agree with me. I feel sorry for people who can only say "why do we have to discuss this again" type people who don't post any pro or con discussion, only whine about "again"... it's not like the subject line of this thread is trying to fool anyone into wasting time here.

I agree that if they do change the system, I hope they will put a 15 min counter on the can and after the first 15 min or whatever the can is then "fair game". I'm not saying if you don't mission or rat you should never be able to salvage... I'm just saying people who scan out an active mission and start salvaging "uninvited" while the person completing the mission is still working on the mobs... that's basically theft and the thief should flag for it. I'm not asking for Concording or anything... just let it be known that you are taking a risk if you do it.


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