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Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2007.09.21 20:36:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Pirate Tom
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Freighters:
As it stands the only real use for the freighter is to ensure quick delivery of ships and supplies to the 0.0 alliances. In their case time is of far greater value than ISK so the losses they take will have far less effect.


Originally by: Description of the Charon

As the makers of the Charon, the Caldari State are generally credited with pioneering the freighter class. Recognizing the need for a massive transport vehicle as deep space installations constantly increase in number, they set about making the ultimate in efficient mass transport - and were soon followed by the other empires.

Sounds like it's working as intended!




If the intent was for yet another alliance only toy... sadly yes.

What I would prefer is for efforts to be made whereby it is worthwhile doing lo-sec trade runs with a freighter. If it were profitable enough to cover losses then everyone would be happy, pirates get their kills, haulers get their ISKies, lo-sec gets used.

The entire pirate "problem" at the moment is the fact that there is nothing worth killing in lo-sec except other pirates. Efforts should be made to populate lo-sec and the only way to get people there willing to take losses is if the profits will cover those losses.

If piracy were profitable I'd be selling my CNR, shifting my stock, and getting my PvP and Profit in one sitting instead of having to "work" to fund my combat exploits.

Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Emminent Terraforming
O.G.-Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.21 20:44:00 - [32]
 

well you also need to make a way to hunt pirates without sec loss, that would also populate low sec. what was it called in the age of sail? privateer license or something like that could be issued by concord to those of rather high sec rating and it could be considered like Wabbit Season.

Antiochus Laetus
Gallente
Triton Research
Illuminati.
Posted - 2007.09.21 20:52:00 - [33]
 

This has happened twice to me, but I have yet to be destroyed, in a 6-7 month span.

Hillary Rodham
Posted - 2007.09.21 21:30:00 - [34]
 

Is "suicide" gank truly suicide? For instance, if you have 4 Raven BS "suicide" gankers going after a freighter with lots of valuable cargo, would CONCORD or whatever patrol ships and sentry guns destroy all 4 Ravens before they could get away?

Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Emminent Terraforming
O.G.-Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.21 21:48:00 - [35]
 

if im not mistaken concord webs and scrams and if you do get away they are able to follow.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.09.21 21:55:00 - [36]
 

Suicide ganking is only a myth. It doesn't exist. Cool

Ridley Scot
Caldari
Wyland-Yutani Corporation
Posted - 2007.09.21 22:14:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Hillary Rodham
Is "suicide" gank truly suicide? For instance, if you have 4 Raven BS "suicide" gankers going after a freighter with lots of valuable cargo, would CONCORD or whatever patrol ships and sentry guns destroy all 4 Ravens before they could get away?


You dont suiced with Ravens because ship will be jammed before killing the target, you use drone ships like Domi and Myrmidon so that damage continues even after Concord shows up, and no suicide ships cant get away, they will be destroyed by Concord. You will get 100% value back though thru insurance payout.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2007.09.21 22:23:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Ridley Scot
Originally by: Hillary Rodham
Is "suicide" gank truly suicide? For instance, if you have 4 Raven BS "suicide" gankers going after a freighter with lots of valuable cargo, would CONCORD or whatever patrol ships and sentry guns destroy all 4 Ravens before they could get away?


You dont suiced with Ravens because ship will be jammed before killing the target, you use drone ships like Domi and Myrmidon so that damage continues even after Concord shows up, and no suicide ships cant get away, they will be destroyed by Concord. You will get 100% value back though thru insurance payout.


More like 65%, unless you know of a way to get Platinum insurance for free.

Remember: deliberately exaggerating is still lying even if you think it's for a good cause.

Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2007.09.21 22:35:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Malcanis

CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.



How does I provide freight safe? Very Happy

Seriously, if there were a way for smart, innovative, or well prepared players to avoid ganks then I'd be all for them. But a it stands nothing can save you.

Use scouts: Useless, your going to stop the freighter for every gate with someone on it who may be a possible tackler for lurking gank squad?

Bring Backup: Useless if CONCORD can't sort them out fast enough backup isn't going to help. Also profit margin.

Fly less cargo: Why use a freighter then?

Avoid hubs/danger routes: Avoid all reasonably profitable areas... sure.

In time the freighter pilot population will decrease, meaning the probability of the remaining pilots getting ganked goes up. End result, freighter is relegated to hauling alliance fuel and mins from jita to 0.0 access points for carrier/rorqual pick-up. Even the alliances won't haul t2 if the chance of getting ganked escalates.

tla gnillortmurof
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2007.09.22 08:36:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: tla gnillortmurof on 22/09/2007 08:36:22
Originally by: Hillary Rodham
Is "suicide" gank truly suicide? For instance, if you have 4 Raven BS "suicide" gankers going after a freighter with lots of valuable cargo, would CONCORD or whatever patrol ships and sentry guns destroy all 4 Ravens before they could get away?


1. They can't get away.

2. If they do somehow get away, it's considered an exploit and you can petition them.

Rollava Pollkin
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.09.22 09:01:00 - [41]
 

I've had suicude gankers wash up against the might of my shields twice. It's fairly common to see it inj the .5 space in between trade hubs, I've witnessed it atleast thrice.
It's like fishing, no real risk for the guy at the end of the line but he can only get one fish at a time.

Balcura
Posted - 2007.09.23 01:35:00 - [42]
 

Ok Freighter pilots here is a tiny little lesson. Concord responce is about 20sec even in 1.0 systems.

If your gona loose a freighter then you need to be a little more prepared then you pirate/ganker buddies.

You need to have enough in materials to make loosing 3-6 BS's worth while. If you are carrying large amounts of expensive materials then for god sake please hire or get a buddy to come along in a logistics ship. If done properly he can keel you alive long enough for concord to get the domi/myrm off your ass. A set of rep drones and a logistic ship can pretty much wipe out the DPS of a small domi fleet.

You are running a logistic type mission might be a good idea to bring one with you and if your carrying enough isk then 2 one for shields and 1 for armor would be best (make sure to tank armor if you only have 1 though as thermal is higher on armor TECH 1 OGRES are the weapon of choice).

34534bobalt3244
Posted - 2007.09.23 01:45:00 - [43]
 

You are entirely correct. Fat and rich sloths get ganked and cry about it as if this is Second Life.

Spenz
Gallente
PCG Enterprises
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2007.09.23 02:13:00 - [44]
 

Was suicide ganked before wtz in a nano-taranis. Lost a machariel bpc (the bpc survived of course).

I have heard of people getting suicide ganked in shuttles as well. If a suicide ganker wants you dead, you are dead. What you need to do is figure out how to carry cargo that doesn't invite these attacks.

As for how often they are? Often enough. The safe route from Oursulaert to Amarr goes right up suicide alley (the highway between gallente space and Jita). You will see all sorts of stuff there. Ships scanning you; freight cans (remains of freighter kills); concord blobs; jet cans; suspicious caracal blobs.

Since wtz its much safer (not safe, but compared to before much safer). As long as you dont afk you should be ok.

Ridley Scot
Caldari
Wyland-Yutani Corporation
Posted - 2007.09.23 02:28:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Ridley Scot
Originally by: Hillary Rodham
Is "suicide" gank truly suicide? For instance, if you have 4 Raven BS "suicide" gankers going after a freighter with lots of valuable cargo, would CONCORD or whatever patrol ships and sentry guns destroy all 4 Ravens before they could get away?


You dont suiced with Ravens because ship will be jammed before killing the target, you use drone ships like Domi and Myrmidon so that damage continues even after Concord shows up, and no suicide ships cant get away, they will be destroyed by Concord. You will get 100% value back though thru insurance payout.


More like 65%, unless you know of a way to get Platinum insurance for free.

Remember: deliberately exaggerating is still lying even if you think it's for a good cause.


I said you get 100% of what the ship is worth, you still have to pay again to re-insure the ship. Why, you think maybe insurance should be free of charge too? Laughing

Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2007.09.23 11:23:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Balcura
Ok Freighter pilots here is a tiny little lesson. Concord responce is about 20sec even in 1.0 systems.

If your gona loose a freighter then you need to be a little more prepared then you pirate/ganker buddies.

You need to have enough in materials to make loosing 3-6 BS's worth while. If you are carrying large amounts of expensive materials then for god sake please hire or get a buddy to come along in a logistics ship. If done properly he can keel you alive long enough for concord to get the domi/myrm off your ass. A set of rep drones and a logistic ship can pretty much wipe out the DPS of a small domi fleet.

You are running a logistic type mission might be a good idea to bring one with you and if your carrying enough isk then 2 one for shields and 1 for armor would be best (make sure to tank armor if you only have 1 though as thermal is higher on armor TECH 1 OGRES are the weapon of choice).


A logistics ship will protect you from any lazy gankers bringing the bare minimum DPS, however as I have said else where you can field 30 Domi's per billion cargo you expect to retrieve and still break even, 20 for a decent profit. Since generally you'll be carrying a lot more than 1 or 2 bill in cargo (Otherwise your profit is generally very poor) then gankers can field a very substantial fleet against you.

These kind of numbers can easily eliminate enemy alliance freighters with 5 man escorts including multiple logistics ships. Also Concord response time isn't the only factor, the reason Domi's are used is that drone DPS continues to be applied after Concord arrives and jams the attackers, meaning damage continues until every last Domi is destroyed.

Your thinking of the amature gank squads, the ones who are picking off the "lazy" freighter pilots. The problem is even the well prepared pilots can't defend against the well prepared gank squads will get you every time, and even the dumbest pirate will be aware that if it failed it was because he didn't chuck enough Domi's at it.

The real problem is the freighter pilot worked hard to get up the several bill for his freighter and cargo, did all the research on the market, must continue to monitor the market after delivery, and takes a substantial risk purely on the nature of trade in EVE. The gankers sit on a gate at or near a trade hub and each receive an ensured profit that is typically more per hour than the freighter pilot received for his efforts if he hadn't been attacked. In fact it can be a LOT more than any successful trader can make.

Preparations: The freighter skilled up for a specific task (haul and trade skills) and has likely spent months if not years working with the market to garner the knowledge required to make a good profit from high volume cargoes in reasonable time. The gankers require a small degree of combat skills (Ogre 2 are not essential but are indeed much more efficient) and require no forethought beyond buying Domi's and sitting on a high traffic gate.

Risk vs Reward: The freighter risks billions the gankers risk nothing.

The only way to fix this would be to make the freighter able to tank an obscene ammount of damage to ensure such gank fleets wouldn't make a profit (which would just plain break freighters as far as lo-sec and 0.0 are concerned) or to make it so that Concord responds to anyone looting the wreck of someone they don't have a war-dec against.

Then the gank squads would be required to war-dec target corps (NPC corp pilots are another problem entirely but sufficient targets remain) and face the risk of retaliation. They would have to figure out which routes enemy freighters run, what times they are generally run, and when the freighter is unlikely to have friendly support nearby. In short they would have to be as prepared, and risk almost as much as the freighter pilot.

fejus
Posted - 2007.09.23 18:22:00 - [47]
 

There was a nice fat gank squad sitting in Perimeter Friday night (CST), waiting at the Jita gate.... Jumped right into them in my Badger 2 with about 250mil worth of cargo, luckily I was already hitting the jump icon on the overview. By the time they had scanned me, I was gone.

I wonder if 250Mil would have been enough to justify a gank on a badger 2.....

Crazy Broad
Posted - 2007.09.23 19:45:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Ridley Scot
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Ridley Scot
Originally by: Hillary Rodham
Is "suicide" gank truly suicide? For instance, if you have 4 Raven BS "suicide" gankers going after a freighter with lots of valuable cargo, would CONCORD or whatever patrol ships and sentry guns destroy all 4 Ravens before they could get away?


You dont suiced with Ravens because ship will be jammed before killing the target, you use drone ships like Domi and Myrmidon so that damage continues even after Concord shows up, and no suicide ships cant get away, they will be destroyed by Concord. You will get 100% value back though thru insurance payout.


More like 65%, unless you know of a way to get Platinum insurance for free.

Remember: deliberately exaggerating is still lying even if you think it's for a good cause.


I said you get 100% of what the ship is worth, you still have to pay again to re-insure the ship. Why, you think maybe insurance should be free of charge too? Laughing


God youre stupid. Stop replying please.

Kirjava
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.09.23 19:59:00 - [49]
 

I have been scanned a few times, but I have my Occator rigged for a mother of a tank with 10k+sheilds and recharge rigs.
I have been shot at twice, got sheilds to a whopping 60%!! before concord forwarded them the killmail.
Consequently, always use a tanked transport ship for Jita hauling.

Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
Posted - 2007.09.23 20:19:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf


How does I provide freight safe? Very Happy



One or two wingmen can make all the difference if you're flying some high value cargo.
One in a BC/Commandship running the shield and armour resistance gang mods, the other in a logistics ship.
An extra addition is to use some slave implants and armour/shield HP hardwirings to give you that little extra buffer.

Some things to keep in mind...
- You don't need to tank the enemies long, merely long enough for concord to do their job.
- The attackers will often attack with as few ships as possible to minimise losses and improve profits. This often means that their damage is finely balanced to be just enough so it doesn't take alot to tip things in your favour (resistances and some remote repping will often do the job).
- The support ships don't even need to be in the same corp as you, infact only the command ship needs to even be in the same gang so you can keep them fairly safe.
- The support ships are only needed for runs where the cargo is worth more than the ships/drones required to destroy it.


Some people will argue this sounds like too much hassle but the plain fact is suicide kills are part of life in Eve. The tools exist ingame for you to protect yourself, the only limitation is your willingness to make use of them when required.

Leeluvv
The Black Ops
Posted - 2007.09.23 20:33:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Crazy Broad
Originally by: Ridley Scot
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Ridley Scot
Originally by: Hillary Rodham
Is "suicide" gank truly suicide? For instance, if you have 4 Raven BS "suicide" gankers going after a freighter with lots of valuable cargo, would CONCORD or whatever patrol ships and sentry guns destroy all 4 Ravens before they could get away?


You dont suiced with Ravens because ship will be jammed before killing the target, you use drone ships like Domi and Myrmidon so that damage continues even after Concord shows up, and no suicide ships cant get away, they will be destroyed by Concord. You will get 100% value back though thru insurance payout.


More like 65%, unless you know of a way to get Platinum insurance for free.

Remember: deliberately exaggerating is still lying even if you think it's for a good cause.


I said you get 100% of what the ship is worth, you still have to pay again to re-insure the ship. Why, you think maybe insurance should be free of charge too? Laughing


God youre stupid. Stop replying please.


People can buy ships for a lot less than the payout.

Buy Drake for 31 Mill, Insure for 11 Mill, payout is 40 Mill. Loss = 2 Mill. Nothing I'm going to cry over when it's used to suicide gank. It's even less for a Caracal, but I can't remember the exact figures.

Lee

Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2007.09.23 22:08:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Wild Rho
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf


How does I provide freight safe? Very Happy



One or two wingmen can make all the difference if you're flying some high value cargo.
One in a BC/Commandship running the shield and armour resistance gang mods, the other in a logistics ship.
An extra addition is to use some slave implants and armour/shield HP hardwirings to give you that little extra buffer.

Some things to keep in mind...
- You don't need to tank the enemies long, merely long enough for concord to do their job.
- The attackers will often attack with as few ships as possible to minimise losses and improve profits. This often means that their damage is finely balanced to be just enough so it doesn't take alot to tip things in your favour (resistances and some remote repping will often do the job).
- The support ships don't even need to be in the same corp as you, infact only the command ship needs to even be in the same gang so you can keep them fairly safe.
- The support ships are only needed for runs where the cargo is worth more than the ships/drones required to destroy it.


Some people will argue this sounds like too much hassle but the plain fact is suicide kills are part of life in Eve. The tools exist ingame for you to protect yourself, the only limitation is your willingness to make use of them when required.


I'll admit I hadn't thought of using slaves (I myself don't fly a freighter), and yes this combined with a command ship and logistic ship would increase your chances greatly. But if everyone was to start doing it the gank squads could adapt by simply bringing more DPS, you can throw 60+ Dominix at a freighter and still make a profit in many cases (Gate camps and gank squads seem to have no issue with manpower likely due to the terrible state of piracy in EVE).

Also while the gankers may be happy to just break even and do it for the lulz the freighter pilot will have a hard time finding two buddies willing to work for 25-30mil an hour doing a job that is the EVE equivalent of watching paint dry. Even if he does, unless he's earning in excess of 100mill/hour GUARANTEED, he's not going to make any more profit than a mission runner and thats if he never gets ganked (If he does he will likely spend the next 50+ hours covering that loss). As we all know there are no guarantees when dealing with EVEs market. That 3 billion ISK cargo that was supposed to make a 5% profit could end up making a 15% loss.

Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2007.09.23 22:14:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Leeluvv

Buy Drake for 31 Mill, Insure for 11 Mill, payout is 40 Mill. Loss = 2 Mill. Nothing I'm going to cry over when it's used to suicide gank. It's even less for a Caracal, but I can't remember the exact figures.
Lee


Missile boats fail at freighter ganking since Concord jam them on arrival... although with the pure number of them you could field if you could get 100+ guys behind it would mean the freighter may actually die before Concord even get there. Leaving 100 Guys splitting a multi-billion isk profit. If they retrieve 2bil in cargo that's still 20mil per pilot, not to mention the glorious level of pain they have just inflicted on the freighter pilot which is to many players well worth taking a loss of a few million isk. Twisted Evil

Ridley Scot
Caldari
Wyland-Yutani Corporation
Posted - 2007.09.23 23:50:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Crazy Broad
Originally by: Ridley Scot
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Ridley Scot
Originally by: Hillary Rodham
Is "suicide" gank truly suicide? For instance, if you have 4 Raven BS "suicide" gankers going after a freighter with lots of valuable cargo, would CONCORD or whatever patrol ships and sentry guns destroy all 4 Ravens before they could get away?


You dont suiced with Ravens because ship will be jammed before killing the target, you use drone ships like Domi and Myrmidon so that damage continues even after Concord shows up, and no suicide ships cant get away, they will be destroyed by Concord. You will get 100% value back though thru insurance payout.


More like 65%, unless you know of a way to get Platinum insurance for free.

Remember: deliberately exaggerating is still lying even if you think it's for a good cause.


I said you get 100% of what the ship is worth, you still have to pay again to re-insure the ship. Why, you think maybe insurance should be free of charge too? Laughing


God youre stupid. Stop replying please.


Best.Argument.Ever.Rolling Eyes

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.09.23 23:52:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Ridley Scot
Originally by: Crazy Broad
Originally by: Ridley Scot
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Ridley Scot
Originally by: Hillary Rodham
Is "suicide" gank truly suicide? For instance, if you have 4 Raven BS "suicide" gankers going after a freighter with lots of valuable cargo, would CONCORD or whatever patrol ships and sentry guns destroy all 4 Ravens before they could get away?


You dont suiced with Ravens because ship will be jammed before killing the target, you use drone ships like Domi and Myrmidon so that damage continues even after Concord shows up, and no suicide ships cant get away, they will be destroyed by Concord. You will get 100% value back though thru insurance payout.


More like 65%, unless you know of a way to get Platinum insurance for free.

Remember: deliberately exaggerating is still lying even if you think it's for a good cause.


I said you get 100% of what the ship is worth, you still have to pay again to re-insure the ship. Why, you think maybe insurance should be free of charge too? Laughing


God youre stupid. Stop replying please.


Best.Argument.Ever.Rolling Eyes


He's just trying to communicate with you using terms and concepts that are simple enough for you to understand.

Ridley Scot
Caldari
Wyland-Yutani Corporation
Posted - 2007.09.23 23:57:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

He's just trying to communicate with you using terms and concepts that are simple enough for you to understand.


Hey what are you doing on he forums man? I thought you'd have more fun with your Audi, when not griefing mission runners ofcourse........

cal nereus
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.09.24 00:01:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: cal nereus on 24/09/2007 00:02:31
I've only been attacked twice in high-sec, both times CONCORD killed the other player before I could do much of anything. Furthermore, both times I was arguably a threat to them (they just forgot it wasn't low-sec). They weren't suicide ganks. So, in my personal experience, they never happen. Laughing

Arana Tellen
Gallente
Clan Death Corps
Posted - 2007.09.24 00:04:00 - [58]
 

Solution? Use 1 (yes 1) oneiros/guardian etc.

1 logistics properly fit will give you the equivalent of a capital rep.

Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2007.09.24 11:35:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Arana Tellen
Solution? Use 1 (yes 1) oneiros/guardian etc.

1 logistics properly fit will give you the equivalent of a capital rep.


Only true when dealing with amatuers and every gank squad in operation would upgrade their ops overnight if everyone started doing it leaving us exactly where we are now. Some people are already using more than one logistics ship and still getting ganked. If I see a freighter with logistics support I know it's full of creamy goodness, it doesn't take a genius to work out that tracking the pilots movements and putting in the extra effort is going to yield a huge profit.

Grunanca
Final Agony
B A N E
Posted - 2007.09.24 12:00:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 21/09/2007 11:02:19
Serious question: Is there any kind of data on this at all, and how widespread it is, besides anecdotal "I was carrying 4 billion worth of stuff while afk through high sec, and I was ganked" posts on the forum?


I personally have, in the now 10-11 something months that I've been playing Eve, never been suicide ganked in high sec, nor have I ever witnessed it happening to anyone while flying around. Granted, I have seen Iterons with sensor boosters on at gates, which I highly suspect were scanning people to see what valuables they were carrying, a few times. Also, I have been locked once while outside of 4-4 in Jita (I assume I was scanned) while carrying some nice cargo, but wasn't attacked for some reason.

Still, my experiences lead me to believe that this can't really be a widespread "problem", and the only reason it seems differently is because the victims are very likely to come on the forums and cry about it when it does happen. I mean, I still take loads of precautions whenever I'm carrying valuables, and do my best to limit the risks. Better safe than sorry.

But I just can't see, from where I'm sitting, that it is that much of an issue except to a rare few.


3 days ago there was atleast 5 in RensYARRRR!! Awsome not having to work for my isk other than raising sec status once in a whileVery Happy


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