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blankseplocked Of all things Caldari, ECM, Recon-like, and missile-y: an open letter.
 
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.09.14 03:52:00 - [31]
 

You're having problems because you're using the wrong ships for the wrong jobs.

Case in point:

I warp my Megathron in on a Hyperion, Damnation, Myrmidon, Cyclone and Hurricane. I engage the Hype while my two buddies warp in with a Rook and a second Mega.

The Hype goes pop, I engage the Cyclone and align out, I'm really getting hammered, but my buddy in his Rook JAMS EVERY SINGLE ENEMY SHIP SOLO (That's 4x BC jammed solid by one ship) and I warp out as my mate warps in with his Mega and cleans up the rest of them.

A good Rook/Falcon pilot is just stupid good when used properly and in conjunction with other ships/pilots. You're just mad because you can't solo anything. Oh well, guess you picked the wrong thing to train up for if that is what you wanted to do.

You probably picked Caldari because they looked the coolest and liked being an uber mission lamer before you tried out PVP. Well, now that you want to do something different, looks like you're going to have to cross train like the rest of us.

If you want a fancy ship to solo stuff in, train up a Huginn or Rapier. They're sick. Meanwhile, the Rook and Falcon are perfect the way they are: super powerful ECM platforms that can single handedly turn the tide of battle in one stroke.

Felzius
Gallente
Strix Armaments and Defence
Posted - 2007.09.14 03:59:00 - [32]
 

I don't know about you, but every time I've seen a caldari ecm ship, I've been permajammed and unable to retaliate.

Working as intended imo.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.09.14 06:25:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: HatfulOfHollow
I don't mean to sound rude, but did you even read what you quoted as evidence? He is clearly talking about non-dedicated ECM ships fitting ECM modules being overpowered. The first three sentences say it all. He's saying that ECM modules are overpowered in that a non-ECM ship can fit one and have a 30% chance to jam another ship. Not that ECM ships aren't designed to tank and jam. Also, what sort of uber-powerful armor tank are you going to get with 3 slots? Certainly not anything game breaking, regardless of whether or not your opponent is jammed.


Let me repeat it for you:

In my opinion there is not much wrong with dedicated ECM ships.

Not much wrong != nothing wrong.
CCP was never saying that ECM specced ships were not to be nerfed exept in your imagination.

ECM on specced ships was a bit too strong as well, it just wasn't as broken as on nonspecced ships.
The changes nerfed ECM heavily on nonspecced ships due to their strength reduction while ECM ships got a ship bonus increase which countered part of the nerf. The SDAs counter the other part.

Essentially, nonspecced ships got the full nerf while ecm specced ships got half of the nerf. Claiming "instead of nerfing ECM to not work on other race's ships, they nerfed Caldari ECM ships" is just silly.

And, yes, a 3 slot tank is "uber-powerful", in the sense that it is pretty much the average tank other ships have as well. And as tux said "Being able to tank and jam at the same time is part of (the problem)".

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.09.14 06:50:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Felzius
I don't know about you, but every time I've seen a caldari ecm ship, I've been permajammed and unable to retaliate.

Working as intended imo.


I tend to find that each time I'm flying a caldari ECM ship, I'm missing jamming cycles frequently, and getting primaried and instapopping.

Juha85
Free Lapland
The Kadeshi
Posted - 2007.09.14 07:00:00 - [35]
 

Just move RSD's into chance based system with racial types and we can all be done with it. Just make them have a higher probability of hitting compared to ECM.

In my opinion ewar would be balanced when a non-specced ship has hard time deciding whether to fit ECM, RSD or TD. Now its a clear choice, everyone fits a RSD.

murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2007.09.14 07:26:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: Felzius
I don't know about you, but every time I've seen a caldari ecm ship, I've been permajammed and unable to retaliate.

Working as intended imo.


I tend to find that each time I'm flying a caldari ECM ship, I'm missing jamming cycles frequently, and getting primaried and instapopping.


Like what exactly? A Rook with maxed skills and maxed out ECM setup? I.e. ECM strength rigs and ECM boost mods in lows with racial ECM?

Mimio
Caldari
Free Space Pilots aka Banderlogs
Red Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.14 07:37:00 - [37]
 

Very-very good post.
Lack of drone bay on many Caldari ships(not only recons, look on Caldari HAC) means no additional protection against small target.
Over-nerfing ECM converts usable and useful weapon in some kind of trick, which may be used only with extremely competent gang leader(fleetcom).
So, remove racial ECM, boost multiracial jammers and nerf ecm amplifiers. And you may remove to the hell rigs.
And add drone bay, at least 25m2.

Zixxa
Posted - 2007.09.14 07:40:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: murder one

Like what exactly? A Rook with maxed skills and maxed out ECM setup? I.e. ECM strength rigs and ECM boost mods in lows with racial ECM?

Stacking penalty, FYI.

HatfulOfHollow
Synetix Engineering
Posted - 2007.09.14 11:41:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
Let me repeat it for you:

In my opinion there is not much wrong with dedicated ECM ships.

Not much wrong != nothing wrong.
CCP was never saying that ECM specced ships were not to be nerfed exept in your imagination.


They may not have said it but that's exactly what they did. By forcing us to spend our low slots on SDAs they are effectively nerfing ECM ships instead of taking away the ability to fit ECM on every other ship. The desired effect was granted but they inadvertantly hurt the Caldari ECM boats in the process. I'm fairly certain that wasn't the intended goal seeing as how tixford said nothing was wrong with them. The ECM nerf made the Caldari ECM boats weaker as well as removing the ability to fit ECM on everything. I'm sorry you don't understand this.

Originally by: Aramendel

And, yes, a 3 slot tank is "uber-powerful", in the sense that it is pretty much the average tank other ships have as well. And as tux said "Being able to tank and jam at the same time is part of (the problem)".


You've again taken this quote out of context. He is talking about ships that have lots of low slots and aren't devoted ECM boats. Pre-nerf you could armor tank the hell out of something with many lows and stuff your leftover mids with ECM mods because you still had a pretty decent chance to jam anything. That was what was broken.

HatfulOfHollow
Synetix Engineering
Posted - 2007.09.14 11:55:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: murder one
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: Felzius
I don't know about you, but every time I've seen a caldari ecm ship, I've been permajammed and unable to retaliate.

Working as intended imo.


I tend to find that each time I'm flying a caldari ECM ship, I'm missing jamming cycles frequently, and getting primaried and instapopping.


Like what exactly? A Rook with maxed skills and maxed out ECM setup? I.e. ECM strength rigs and ECM boost mods in lows with racial ECM?


The main problem that a lot of Caldari recon pilots have is that there is no ability to fit much of any tank so a missed jam on anything is bad news. Yes, with a max skilled rook you can jam for a little over 12 points of strength which is great, but if you remember back to my original post, I said these changes would mainly benefit the falcon. They would help the rook as well, but wouldn't make it overpowering. Pretty much all they would do is bring the Rook's DPS in line with the rest of the recon class ships. In that regard you have to admit that the Rook's DPS is lacking versus similar ships.

In fleet and gang work, Caldari ECM ships are instapopped with no way to protect themselves. The falcon is laughable in solo pvp. Against a drone boat where jams won't do anything because of auto aggression, you are essentially screwed without the ability to fit any type of tank. It seems that a good number of ships can deal with Caldari ECM boats either with drones or simply burning out of range and flying away, but there is no way for the ECM ship to deal with it's opponent.

The proposed changes would make a lowslot armor tank viable for fleet work so you don't immediately die upon jumping into a system. It also allows you to fit weapon upgrades should you need extra DPS.

It adds versatility to two ships that really don't have any.

Luke Pubcrawler
Posted - 2007.09.14 12:18:00 - [41]
 

I would be happy with a small boost to the caldari recons, they do seem to have gotten slightly overnerfed. The same seems to happen everytime CCP are presauded to nerf a module - they always hit the specialist ships for that module harder than they should. When the inevitable RSD nerf comes I expect to see the same - cue gallente screaming.

I would be inclined to leave ecm strenghts as they are but up the bonus on the caldari ecm ships by enough to allow them not to fit SDAs. Any nonspec ship fitting ECM then needs to use SDAs to make it work, a ecm specialised ship does not.

In addition I would suggest adding a little dps - the drone bay idea seems best. Say 10-15m

Within the next month or so I plan to take cruiser 5 on a second race - I already have Amarr, in order to fly their HACS and Recons. At present there is no way I would choose Caldari, Minmatar and Gallente recons are just so much better.

o0TuNa0o
The Littlest Hobos
Damu'Khonde
Posted - 2007.09.14 13:26:00 - [42]
 

Nice post, bang on. I fly the rook and while it's good, it's nothing close to the other race's recons. On the discussions regarding most of the Caldari ships, everyone knows they are inferior, but nothing is done about it.

Someone sort it out!

Veryez
Posted - 2007.09.14 13:54:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Veryez on 14/09/2007 13:55:48
As has been discussed many times, ECM is slightly underpowered. The nerf of last year went too far imo. Comparing it to Sensor Damps is useless, everyone knows they are overpowered. I have felt for a long time that the Rook and the Blackbird are fine ships, the Griffin is a little too strong, and the Falcon and the Scorpion need help.

For the Falcon, the bonus to cap use and the bonus to ECM strength need to be switched (i.e. the bonus to cap use dependent on recon level not cruiser level). Secondly the bonus to ecm strength should be 15% per level not 10%. Finally the high slots should be 3/3 guns/turrets. A small drone bay would be nice, but it's doubtful the ship would get that.

The Scorpion should get a 15% bonus per level not 10%. The reason behind this and the Falcon's change is simply to place them above the Blackbird. 10% per level is simply too low to have a valid chance of jamming a battleship sized enemy. I have presented the math in earlier threads when the nerf came out. Doesn't matter since this thread like those will be ignored by CCP. People who don't fly ECM ships are rather happy with the state of ECM now, since it's only occasionally encountered.

The final change I would make to ECM is a very large nerf to ECCM modules. They were boosted (twice) to handle ECM when it was overpowered and have never been adjusted back down. One ECCM module can stop a few ECM and signal amps combined. On a Battleship it can make you practically ECM proof, as it has a very good chance of stopping 3 racial ECM and 3 Signal Amps or a total of 6 modules. This is hardly fair and needs to be toned down quite a bit. To the pilot who complained that every time he sees an ECM ship he gets jammed, make room for one of these, until they get nerfed.

Sadly Hatful, these threads have been written and ignored many times since the ECM nerf. I don't expect you ever see CCP say they are reevaluating ECM. I believe they consider it a done deal. Lastly as much as I like the idea of t2 battleships, I don't think they will be a very good thing for eve. I'm very doubtful they can be implemented and not be imbalanced.

InUrThreadDebatinUrTopic
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2007.09.14 13:59:00 - [44]
 

QUIT YO JIBBA JABBA

Caldari are fine

ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.14 14:03:00 - [45]
 

Get the rook's jamming bonus to 25% per level and the falcon's (and ofc griffin/BB/scorp) at 12,5% and we're done here really.
It's just a tad underpowered, not that much.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.09.14 14:29:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: HatfulOfHollow
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: Felzius
I don't know about you, but every time I've seen a caldari ecm ship, I've been permajammed and unable to retaliate.

Working as intended imo.


I tend to find that each time I'm flying a caldari ECM ship, I'm missing jamming cycles frequently, and getting primaried and instapopping.


Like what exactly? A Rook with maxed skills and maxed out ECM setup? I.e. ECM strength rigs and ECM boost mods in lows with racial ECM?


The main problem that a lot of Caldari recon pilots have is that there is no ability to fit much of any tank so a missed jam on anything is bad news. Yes, with a max skilled rook you can jam for a little over 12 points of strength which is great, but if you remember back to my original post, I said these changes would mainly benefit the falcon. They would help the rook as well, but wouldn't make it overpowering. Pretty much all they would do is bring the Rook's DPS in line with the rest of the recon class ships. In that regard you have to admit that the Rook's DPS is lacking versus similar ships.

In fleet and gang work, Caldari ECM ships are instapopped with no way to protect themselves. The falcon is laughable in solo pvp. Against a drone boat where jams won't do anything because of auto aggression, you are essentially screwed without the ability to fit any type of tank. It seems that a good number of ships can deal with Caldari ECM boats either with drones or simply burning out of range and flying away, but there is no way for the ECM ship to deal with it's opponent.

The proposed changes would make a lowslot armor tank viable for fleet work so you don't immediately die upon jumping into a system. It also allows you to fit weapon upgrades should you need extra DPS.

It adds versatility to two ships that really don't have any.


Yeah, you're pretty much missing the whole point of my original post.

One ship was able to shut down a command ship, and three other BCs 100% of the time, for the duration of the fight. It's job isn't to do DPS, it's job isn't to have a tank, it's job is to jam the crap out of everything. Which it does *extremely* well.

It's not a solo ship. It's a support ship that needs to be used very carefully.

Don't use it in big fleets where you're going to encounter long range fleet guns. You don't see people using Arazus in 50+ fleet engagements for the same reason. Focus fire and done. Don't use it for solo PVP. That's not it's job. The Rook and Falcon can do with one midslot what the Arazu has to use 2-3 midslots for, sometimes 4.

It's just fine. ECM isn't over nerfed. With *one* Rook pilot in my gang I can go 2 or 3 to 1 odds and *win* because it's so powerful. With *two* Rooks in my gang or a Rook and a Falcon, I can go 4 or 5 to 1 no problem, as long as they're not all drone boats, and come out on top. ECM is ridiculously good when used by skilled pilots.

If you're having problems jamming people, you don't have enough skills, and your setups arn't focused enough towards ECM strength.

Zixxa: stacking penalty? Damps have a stacking nerf, not ECM. Lol?

Disco Flint
The Flaming Sideburn's
Posted - 2007.09.14 14:40:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Zixxa: stacking penalty? Damps have a stacking nerf, not ECM. Lol?


Not that I want to help Zixxa or anything, god help me no, but don't the ECM damage mods and rigs suffer the same stacking penalty as weapon damage mods and rigs?

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2007.09.14 14:51:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Disco Flint
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Zixxa: stacking penalty? Damps have a stacking nerf, not ECM. Lol?


Not that I want to help Zixxa or anything, god help me no, but don't the ECM damage mods and rigs suffer the same stacking penalty as weapon damage mods and rigs?


most probably they do. that's why you have either 1 low or 1 rig slot redundant on the falcon (3low+2rigs = 5 slots, stacking after 4 modules is VERY heavy).

Zixxa
Posted - 2007.09.14 15:36:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

One ship was able to shut down a command ship, and three other BCs 100% of the time, for the duration of the fight. It's job isn't to do DPS, it's job isn't to have a tank, it's job is to jam the crap out of everything. Which it does *extremely* well.

You are wrong. ECM ships are far to be effective.

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

It's not a solo ship. It's a support ship that needs to be used very carefully.

You cannot use ECM ships carefully. Because usually after first fail you are DEAD. And in long battle you will be dead certainly.

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

Don't use it in big fleets where you're going to encounter long range fleet guns.

Please, learn your mommy how to wash your socks. Do not learn us how to use ECM in battle. Particularly in the big fleets battle.

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

You don't see people using Arazus in 50+ fleet engagements for the same reason.

It seems you do not understand difference between Arazu and Falcon.

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

It's just fine. ECM isn't over nerfed.

You are wrong. ECM is overnerfed. For example, look for prices on Rook and Falcon.

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

With *one* Rook pilot in my gang I can go 2 or 3 to 1 odds and *win* because it's so powerful.

Erh? Yet another small low sec pirate? Welcome to the front line.

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

If you're having problems jamming people, you don't have enough skills, and your setups arn't focused enough towards ECM strength.

Dude, we have enough skills. And we have enough experience in killing ******s like you.

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

Zixxa: stacking penalty? Damps have a stacking nerf, not ECM. Lol?

Dude, ECM amplifiers and ECM rigs have common stacking nerf. By design ECM modules cannot have stacking nerf.

No21
Posted - 2007.09.14 15:39:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: No21 on 14/09/2007 15:40:28
Hmm yeah this is busting my balls. When the nerf came and introduced the low slot amp mods i kinda turned into a WTF state. Really, why? Why not just boost the bonus on the ECM dedicated ships? Now they are filled with the amps and got few or none left for tank or making them more agile than a turd or whatever. Only thing i can think of is because of the ECM Burst....which would get a nice boost/str. Maybe they wanted it to remain for the other ships to use but at a more of a expense and found that busting Caldari ships over a bit was a good compromise just so other ppl could fit em and use it but with less str. Haven't given it all too much thought, maybe someone can enlighten me.

And when it comes to Rook,s 5% Kinetic dmg bns i just find it disgusting. Really....you are 100km away and what? Give it a Missile Velocity bonus instead like the Caracal ffs and it can help out and yeah use FoFs that will actually reach if it gets dampned and at least do something. The Lachesis got its RoF bonus and still can break em down pretty good with Defenders, 75km+(no skills) and got its damps. Like it should be, no questions about it. But that "Kinetic Dmg Bonus" sucks and is pointless from my side of view compared to the other races Combat Recon ships bonuses. Unless i am missing something and ppl warp 0-10km to the foe and do something special.

Hmm yeah thats what i think. And oh, the Scorpion still got 18 slots compared to two 19 and one 18 but with a huge dronebay.

Kousakuin
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.09.14 15:54:00 - [51]
 

Edit: I should probably preface this by saying that I'm a Caldari Recon/ECM specialist with Recons and any skill relating to ECM at V

What about removing the jam cycle from unbonused ships and adding it as a bonus to ECM Role-players. This way ECM just breaks a lock if it's on a random Dominix, but a Rook can keep a guy permajammed if he's got some dedicated skills.

Leave the actication cycle in, however. This would make ECM useful on any given ship without being overpowering. Not counting RSDs and SBs since they'll more or less cancel each other out in a 1v1, (unless one guy is dedicating some midslots to ewar in which case he deserves to win that battle) basically anyone can reaquire a lock in 20 seconds, so one Multispec thrown in a wildcard slot becomes the tool/edge it should be, rather than a weapon/1-slot tank.

This also has the effect of making ECM role-players permajam capable with good skills by having say, ECM jam for 5 seconds per ship skill level (so having Caldari Cruiser IV would return a Blackbird to it's current status, and Cruiser V would make it even better, which I think is a pretty reasonable precedent).

I think we can all acknowledge that ECM is an incredibly powerful tool, and it's one that should be best left to the experts, as dedicating a ship to it will gimp it otherwise, yet having a balanced ship with a strong ECM in a random midslot gets way better, and that's a sily dichotomy to have. Whatever the solution it should make ECM useful on any ship, and dangerous as hell on Blackbirds/Falcons/Rooks/Scorps

HatfulOfHollow
Synetix Engineering
Posted - 2007.09.14 16:00:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: HatfulOfHollow on 14/09/2007 16:02:40
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
The Rook and Falcon can do with one midslot what the Arazu has to use 2-3 midslots for, sometimes 4.


This is just so incredibly wrong it hurts. It has to be a troll, right? Oh well. I guess I'll respond anyway...

The Falcon and Rook need 2-3 additional modules in their low slots to make that one mid slot module work. And then there is a chance of failure on anything larger than a cruiser. That makes 3-4 modules bare minimum. Additionally, because you never know what you are going to be fighting you need at least one of each racial because multispecs are worthless. Now we're up to a bare minimum of 6 slots on the Rook and 7 on the Falcon. How is 6 or 7 less than 3? Did I fail math?

The Arazu needs only 2-3 to do the similar task of shutting down a single ship. Since we know that RSDs are invariably going to be nerfed, lets look at some of the other force recons...

What about the Rapier which needs a maximum of 2 mids to be the perfect webber (and don't even bring up the fact that target painters suck because the rapier gets a disgusting bonus to web range)? Or the Pilgrim only needs a maximum of 2 slots to be the perfect anti-turret platform.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.09.14 16:42:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 14/09/2007 17:01:51
Originally by: HatfulOfHollow
Originally by: Aramendel
Let me repeat it for you:

In my opinion there is not much wrong with dedicated ECM ships.

Not much wrong != nothing wrong.
CCP was never saying that ECM specced ships were not to be nerfed exept in your imagination.


They may not have said it but that's exactly what they did. By forcing us to spend our low slots on SDAs they are effectively nerfing ECM ships instead of taking away the ability to fit ECM on every other ship. The desired effect was granted but they inadvertantly hurt the Caldari ECM boats in the process. I'm fairly certain that wasn't the intended goal seeing as how tixford said nothing was wrong with them. The ECM nerf made the Caldari ECM boats weaker as well as removing the ability to fit ECM on everything. I'm sorry you don't understand this.


You still fail to read correctly. Let me repeat (again):

CCP was never saying that ECM specced ships were not to be nerfed exept in your imagination.

They did NEVER say "We are not nerfing ECM specced ships" or "ECM specced ships will not e effected by the ecm changes at all".

Infact they DID say that even ECM specced ships are problematic. If they would have thought they are fine they would have said so. But instead they said "there is not much wrong"..which indicates that there *is* something wrong. Which was their jam + tank ability.

Quote:
You've again taken this quote out of context. He is talking about ships that have lots of low slots and aren't devoted ECM boats. Pre-nerf you could armor tank the hell out of something with many lows and stuff your leftover mids with ECM mods because you still had a pretty decent chance to jam anything. That was what was broken.


He is talking about ECM use in general. Read what actually stands there not what you think what stands there. Being able to use ECM and tank was stated as general problem, independant if it is used on a specced ship or unspecced ship.

Tux stated that he thinks ECM on ECM specced ships wasn't as broken as on nonspecced ships, but he is NOT saying that ECM specced ships are fine. Just that they are less broken.

Ribeye Jaksom
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.09.15 16:04:00 - [54]
 

Falcons suck since nerf and I want my skillpoints back. That is all.

Transcendent Panda
Caldari
Posted - 2007.09.15 18:23:00 - [55]
 

trying to argue with Aramendel about ECM = useless
trying to argue with murderOne about anything that doesn't include "boost Gallente" = absolutely useless

nonetheless, I really hope they spent a lot of time thinking about their "racial EW" balance when they designed the T2 EW frigates because it's nowhere near ideal atm

Xequecal
Posted - 2007.09.15 19:23:00 - [56]
 

Also, you guys need to remember that at the time of the ECM nerf, nanoships still existed. You can't possibly tell me something like this Domi setup wasn't hilariously overpowered before the NOS, ECM, and nanoship nerfs:

5x Heavy Dim NOS

MWD II
Scram
3x ECM Multispec

7x Nanofiber Internal Structure

Fager
Caldari
5 Inch Incorporated
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2007.09.15 19:52:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Xequecal
Also, you guys need to remember that at the time of the ECM nerf, nanoships still existed. You can't possibly tell me something like this Domi setup wasn't hilariously overpowered before the NOS, ECM, and nanoship nerfs:

5x Heavy Dim NOS

MWD II
Scram
3x ECM Multispec

7x Nanofiber Internal Structure


thats total pre-nerf win rigth there Laughing

kimish
Posted - 2007.09.15 20:58:00 - [58]
 

well caldari have the lowest, effective dps.

the slowest effectie damge output.

the worst tank (since to use any kind of lockdown modules, web and scram as a MOST!!! in pvp will seriusly cripple their tank.

the lowest drne bay, IF any at all.

the Slowest ships all around.

the highest signature radius.

the worst race spec EW.

etc

(ow yer they are good at PVE... OUUHHHH.... that is just worth ALL the minusses it have :S ffs, fix them, stop nerfing their pvp wise effectiveness)

SisterBliss
The Red Exhilez
Posted - 2007.09.16 01:10:00 - [59]
 

Gotta agree with the op cal ECM ships really need some sorting out.

Also to those saying that ECM ships should have no tank because they can jam, how would you like to have your hit-points and resists based of a random number generator?

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.09.16 02:46:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: kimish
well caldari have the lowest, effective dps.

the slowest effectie damge output.

the worst tank (since to use any kind of lockdown modules, web and scram as a MOST!!! in pvp will seriusly cripple their tank.

the lowest drne bay, IF any at all.

the Slowest ships all around.

the highest signature radius.

the worst race spec EW.

etc

(ow yer they are good at PVE... OUUHHHH.... that is just worth ALL the minusses it have :S ffs, fix them, stop nerfing their pvp wise effectiveness)


Don't use them to PVP then.

You don't see too many Typhoons used to run missions do you? The majority of mission running BS are Ravens. It's the best tool for the job. Ravens arn't the best for PVP, so use something else.

Every Recon excels at doing particular roles, and the Rook/Falcon is never going to work as well as an Arazu when you're trying to use it like one. Conversely, if you try to use an Arazu like a Rook, it's not going to work either (or Lachesis or w/e).

The OP is complaining that his Rook/Falcon can't do the exact same job as Amarr/Gallente/Minmatar Recons. So what? It's not supposed to. If you want to fill those roles, train up those ships and fly them, or build your gang around how your ship is designed to be used.

Caldari have the lowest effective DPS? That's not always the case. Missile DPS is far more consistant than turret based DPS, you can tune your damage type to the target at will, and damage doesn't drop off over range like it does with turrets.

Sounds to me like the Caldari guys just want to be the best in every situation, regardless of what that is.

I fly all four races, and I pick and choose what ships I fly for what particular purposes. I don't fly every ship class of every race. I only use the ones that are the best for a particular job I need to do.

Everyone seems to want to make every ship exactly the same. ECM is it's own flavor and style of EW with it's own advantages/disadvantages. It's BS that people think that it's not effective or not good enough. It's extremely good when used correctly.

Sounds to me like you guys just want to run around permajamming everyone and soloing whoever you like, exactly like Scorp pilots used to do before ECM was balanced. Before ECM was fixed, any time someone saw a Scorp, they turned around and went the other way. Now the Scorps role is to support others in a gang while providing long range ECM support, like it should have been in the first place.

Same with the Rook and Falcon. Want an in-your-face Recon ship? Skill up a Huginn or Curse. The Rook isn't what you're looking for if you want a damage focused front line combat ship. Same with the Falcon.


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