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Nakirash
Posted - 2007.09.14 14:08:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Tzrailasa
Ehem, Nakirash is my scouting alt (which the forum somehow had reset to being default posting char). I thought it best to continue that thread on that char...

Confirm...

Fehz
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.09.14 14:14:00 - [92]
 

here's a scenario i just went through last night while ratting in my raven in 0.0 w/o a cloak. I have about 30 safe spots instead. They bring in a covert ops ship and he keeps launching scan probes and warping to where he thinks i am.. i've already ping-ponged to the next safe spot. He finds a few more.. then he picks one and sits at it for a while.. I pong back to it eventually.. He now knows that that is one of my safe spots. He calls in 10 friends.. They were stupid and only put one at the safe spot of mine they now know of. I warp in and am 40km from the guy and warp away in time.. he didn't even target me for 10 or so seconds or I'd be dead. So, local doesn't help all that much, but it is a valuable tool. in the end, i was forced to log.. Then they added me to their address book and they keep coming back whenever I log in. If anything, they should make people approve being added to someone address book. We can't make everything in this game work to the pirates' advantage.

Captian Internet
Lead Bricks
Posted - 2007.09.14 14:24:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Fehz
here's a scenario i just went through last night while ratting in my raven in 0.0 w/o a cloak. I have about 30 safe spots instead. They bring in a covert ops ship and he keeps launching scan probes and warping to where he thinks i am.. i've already ping-ponged to the next safe spot. He finds a few more.. then he picks one and sits at it for a while.. I pong back to it eventually.. He now knows that that is one of my safe spots. He calls in 10 friends.. They were stupid and only put one at the safe spot of mine they now know of. I warp in and am 40km from the guy and warp away in time.. he didn't even target me for 10 or so seconds or I'd be dead. So, local doesn't help all that much, but it is a valuable tool. in the end, i was forced to log.. Then they added me to their address book and they keep coming back whenever I log in. If anything, they should make people approve being added to someone address book. We can't make everything in this game work to the pirates' advantage.


Forced to log? did Dr. Claw come in and turn on the laser and you said

"I'll Never Talk Claw"

and he replies

"No Mr.Fehz I want you to log!"

Captian Internet
Lead Bricks
Posted - 2007.09.14 14:25:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Miss Mickey
To me this just seems like the gankers/pirates/whatevers want local removed so that it's easier to gank people. More often than not, the people they are ganking are ratters or miners. So basically, they want an easier way to farm PvE'rs.

However, if local is removed, then something will have to be put in place to allow those PvE'rs to have even the slightest chance to avoid being ganked. For a start, there'd need to be a way to detect cloaked ships, since recons and cov-ops can warp cloaked, scanner won't do. So now all cloaked ships can be detected. Fantastic! Next, scanner would need to be system wide (and not just 14AU) since 20AU probes could land you onto a ratting BS and you'll be in warp by the time he sees you on scanner leaving him no time to warp out.

So basically, if local IS removed, there will still be a replacement tool which instead of just looking at local list, will require pressing a button or two. However, it won't make ganking any easier. Only ppl not paying attention or afk will die, which already happens anyway.

However, since there's no local it will also require work on the part of the hunter and since the system is likely to be a "if i can see you you can see me" system, nothing will change really. Except there might be fewer miners and ratters around, which ultimately will drive prices up.


Provide numbers for your facts or they are merely judged as "gut feeling" statistics

BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
Posted - 2007.09.14 14:31:00 - [95]
 

Agreed

Its like sending a spy to a foreign country, and then registering with their embassy to let them know you put a spy in their country.

Its just plain silly.

Erotic Irony
0bsession
Posted - 2007.09.14 14:55:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Captian Internet
Originally by: Fehz
here's a scenario i just went through last night while ratting in my raven in 0.0 w/o a cloak. I have about 30 safe spots instead. They bring in a covert ops ship and he keeps launching scan probes and warping to where he thinks i am.. i've already ping-ponged to the next safe spot. He finds a few more.. then he picks one and sits at it for a while.. I pong back to it eventually.. He now knows that that is one of my safe spots. He calls in 10 friends.. They were stupid and only put one at the safe spot of mine they now know of. I warp in and am 40km from the guy and warp away in time.. he didn't even target me for 10 or so seconds or I'd be dead. So, local doesn't help all that much, but it is a valuable tool. in the end, i was forced to log.. Then they added me to their address book and they keep coming back whenever I log in. If anything, they should make people approve being added to someone address book. We can't make everything in this game work to the pirates' advantage.


Forced to log? did Dr. Claw come in and turn on the laser and you said

"I'll Never Talk Claw"

and he replies

"No Mr.Fehz I want you to log!"


That is the funniest thing I've read today.

Runner up: :morbid:

Khan Soriano
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.09.14 14:57:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Fehz
here's a scenario i just went through last night while ratting in my raven in 0.0 w/o a cloak. I have about 30 safe spots instead. They bring in a covert ops ship and he keeps launching scan probes and warping to where he thinks i am.. i've already ping-ponged to the next safe spot. He finds a few more.. then he picks one and sits at it for a while.. I pong back to it eventually.. He now knows that that is one of my safe spots. He calls in 10 friends.. They were stupid and only put one at the safe spot of mine they now know of. I warp in and am 40km from the guy and warp away in time.. he didn't even target me for 10 or so seconds or I'd be dead. So, local doesn't help all that much, but it is a valuable tool. in the end, i was forced to log.. Then they added me to their address book and they keep coming back whenever I log in. If anything, they should make people approve being added to someone address book. We can't make everything in this game work to the pirates' advantage.

Name features added to this game since Revelations 1 that made this game 'work to the pirates advantage'???

Was it 'warp to zero'?
Was it not being able to find players in dynamic complexes, deadspace missions?
Was it the increase of hp?

Depp Knight
Evolution
KenZoku
Posted - 2007.09.14 15:05:00 - [98]
 

Im for local nerf if the a new scanner system is included. Without that the loca nerf would be a double edge sword.

Red Desire
Republic Military School
Posted - 2007.09.14 15:16:00 - [99]
 

Ok beside nerf local( on which I totally agree) but changed it with some advanced scanning or some gate automatic activations warnings ..etc
I offer my support for the nerf buddy list!!!
Still a new tool for finding if a player is online or not should be present, but something which takes more skill and time then checking buddy list.

Ozmodan
Minmatar
Massively Mob
Posted - 2007.09.14 15:16:00 - [100]
 

You can't remove local without also fixing the cloaking problem. You have to allow cloaked ships to be scanned.

Zixxa
Posted - 2007.09.14 15:41:00 - [101]
 

We need to boost local
1. Add possibility to filter local (like in overview).
2. Add to the local "Last seen in <ship type>".
3. Add possibility to send local over ingame mail.
4. Show hostile/friendly/neutral counters automatically.
Of course cloaking on non-rpfil ship must be nerfed.
The game will be more strategic and clever.

Khes
Posted - 2007.09.14 15:44:00 - [102]
 

Edited by: Khes on 14/09/2007 15:46:20
I belive for removing local to work remotly good you have to creat so many other features to replace its impact on intel that it would be so much easyer to just let it be as it is. Removing local would affect to many different factors.


Khan Soriano
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.09.14 15:44:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Ozmodan
You can't remove local without also fixing the cloaking problem. You have to allow cloaked ships to be scanned.

I agree completely, both problems should be resolved together.

On another note I'm all about discussion on this topic however I prefer the radical approachRazz

But seriously, some propositions are really interesting: 'radar thingy' and automatic scanning could be very fruitful and if DEVs build upon those ideas we might have a system that suits everyone. I like to think that about the final solution to this problem as a minigame for both the hunter and hunted.

Captian Internet
Lead Bricks
Posted - 2007.09.14 15:46:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Zixxa
We need to boost local
1. Add possibility to filter local (like in overview).
2. Add to the local "Last seen in <ship type>".
3. Add possibility to send local over ingame mail.
4. Show hostile/friendly/neutral counters automatically.
Of course cloaking on non-rpfil ship must be nerfed.
The game will be more strategic and clever.



Why not just have stargates auto D'day hostiles and their back up who is waiting on the other side while your at it Rolling Eyes

Elmicker
Wreckless Abandon
Posted - 2007.09.14 15:52:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Khan Soriano
...automatic scanning...


1) Cover the word "local" with a label
2) Write "Automatic Scanner Readout" on said label
3) ????
4) Profit.

Tzrailasa
Tzrailasa Corp
Posted - 2007.09.14 15:52:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Zixxa
We need to boost local
1. Add possibility to filter local (like in overview).
2. Add to the local "Last seen in <ship type>".
3. Add possibility to send local over ingame mail.
4. Show hostile/friendly/neutral counters automatically.
Of course cloaking on non-rpfil ship must be nerfed.
The game will be more strategic and clever.


This is just as wrong as the people who cry remove-local-and-all-will-be-well....

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.09.14 15:57:00 - [107]
 

This is so funny...

- if local is removed, piwates will have to spend a lot of time per-system scanning it to see if there is even anyone in it for them to attack. This not only slows down how often the pirates will be able to engage others but it will make it extremely time consuming and boring for them.
- if local is removed, gate camping will pretty much be *the* pvp left in the game since scanning takes so long.
- if local is removed, the entire pvp part of the game will slow down greatly simply because targets will be harder to find and fights will be further in between.

As it is, you can jump into a system, take a look at local and see if the system is empty or has potential targets in it in about 1 second. If no potential targets, move to the next system. If local is removed, this changes to be a bit longer every time you jump into a system because you have to scan a bit before you can write the system off to your satisfaction.

Those who want local to go away only think about the offensive side of things... most of them are piwates who are sad because their targets go to ground when they enter a system. Just wait until they're on the defensive side and then there'll be plenty of sadness for them.

Not that it'll matter too much because anyone who is actually looking to fight will be hanging around gates so they can see when people come in.

Yay! more tedium and boring parts of a game for all!

Zixxa
Posted - 2007.09.14 16:07:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Zixxa
We need to boost local
1. Add possibility to filter local (like in overview).
2. Add to the local "Last seen in <ship type>".
3. Add possibility to send local over ingame mail.
4. Show hostile/friendly/neutral counters automatically.
Of course cloaking on non-rpfil ship must be nerfed.
The game will be more strategic and clever.


This is just as wrong as the people who cry remove-local-and-all-will-be-well....


I propose reasonable changes. You can do it manually, but for what hell? Let PC makes it for us.

Expecially fot young pilots(like you).
Long time ago we have local without this funny plus and minus sign.
AFAIR, I was one of the pilots proposing to add these signs. Wow, forum ******s screamed that "I am *** and ***".
And what? Now we have these signs and all are happy. Because before, you MUST right click on every damned face in local to find who is who. As additional tool we had been using buddy list to see enemy. It was annoying and boring.


I propose absolutely reasonable changes
local filtering,
local automatical counting and
memorizing last ships of local pilots.

What is wrong? Nothing. Fleet commander will get better information and fight will be less dependent from the luck or stupid mistakes.

sharkyballs
Amarr
Dkiller Delta Force Corp.
CORPVS DELICTI
Posted - 2007.09.14 16:23:00 - [109]
 

has anyone else noticed the trend of player's thought processes involving ideas of this nature?

whine = nerf = "make my time in game easier"Surprised. you can't argue with that trend.

but then they're argument for the rebuttle givin is some form of "you already have it so easy". it almost sounds like some form of "lets change things cause i'm tired of doing it this way" which is still the same thing as "make my life easier".

removing local will make 0.0 population go down except for blobing. where are you're targets now? in empire. now you don't have anything at all to shoot at in the same form that you want it.

sharkyballs' thought for the day: hypocracy does not validate a point. it is possible to fix something till it breaks again (you might loosen the joint too much). be very careful of what you ask for.



Captian Internet
Lead Bricks
Posted - 2007.09.14 16:34:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Zixxa
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Zixxa
We need to boost local
1. Add possibility to filter local (like in overview).
2. Add to the local "Last seen in <ship type>".
3. Add possibility to send local over ingame mail.
4. Show hostile/friendly/neutral counters automatically.
Of course cloaking on non-rpfil ship must be nerfed.
The game will be more strategic and clever.


This is just as wrong as the people who cry remove-local-and-all-will-be-well....


I propose reasonable changes. You can do it manually, but for what hell? Let PC makes it for us.

Expecially fot young pilots(like you).
Long time ago we have local without this funny plus and minus sign.
AFAIR, I was one of the pilots proposing to add these signs. Wow, forum ******s screamed that "I am *** and ***".
And what? Now we have these signs and all are happy. Because before, you MUST right click on every damned face in local to find who is who. As additional tool we had been using buddy list to see enemy. It was annoying and boring.


I propose absolutely reasonable changes
local filtering,
local automatical counting and
memorizing last ships of local pilots.

What is wrong? Nothing. Fleet commander will get better information and fight will be less dependent from the luck or stupid mistakes.


What you propose is making the current defensive easy mode into quadriplegic easy mode. Hell if you want ccp to do everything for you why bother playing?

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2007.09.14 20:36:00 - [111]
 

My thoughts on this:

1)As far as advantages go, I strongly believe that the advantage should always be given to the defender/ratter. The reasons for this are simple: If the advantage is with the attacker then there's really no point in owning space, and if ratting or other forms of carebearing become too dangerous then no one will bother doing it.
Or does anyone not know of the current situation of lowsec space? (And all the risk vs rewards whines there are on the subject)
Then there's the definition of victory for either side that makes a huge difference. The attacker wins when the defender loses his ship, the defender wins when he does not lose his ship. It costs me nothing to not kill a guy, but if I DO kill him then he loses his ship, and I gain his drops. Because of this I, as an agressor, should have a fairly large disadvantage.
Let's say they make it so that neither side has an advantage, that there is roughly a 50% chance of either side coming out successful in this game of cat and mouse. That would mean that for every time someone gets away, they get killed the next time. Is that really fair, in any way, to the defenders?

2)Truth be told I wouldn't mind seeing local removed, but I'd want to see some sort of advantage given back to the defenders. IMO a good comprimise would be a POS mod (not something with huge fitting reqs, but that needs sov lvl 2 or 3) that alerts members of an alliance if there is a hostile in system, or maybe anchorable guns for gates Twisted Evil

Sfatia
Posted - 2007.09.15 08:47:00 - [112]
 

Edited by: Sfatia on 15/09/2007 08:49:06
Noone needs local! and it would benefit both the hunters and hunted if u have it replaced with constelation chat.

people will still kill npc or mine in 0.0 with maybe a scout or two at constellation entrance who could warn npcer or miners

but now theres no need to, because theres local chat and people are aligned and then warp if enemy comes in and + cloak.
Anyways who think its fair that a pvper should have the right to pvp with an npcer.. thats not pvp its not fair either and so called pvpers dont come alone to kill ur ratting raven.. no they come in hordes.

if u have now constelation chat ur corp/ally see them coming from further out and so they can form a gang to counter gives time for the miners to go safe or grab their pvp ships and actually have chance to give them the fight they were looking for.

and for those who think npcers would just dock when they see me coming in constelation chat, might be right but anyways ur looking for a fight theres greater chance to get a real fight
and if the npcer stays dock and refuse to fight You its fine he cant rat now because theres one red in constelation and he dont know where.

thinking of most scenarios can happenin game theres no reason to have local its just way to easy atm for both hunters and hunted!





Captian Internet
Lead Bricks
Posted - 2007.09.15 08:57:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Cambarus
My thoughts on this:

1)As far as advantages go, I strongly believe that the advantage should always be given to the defender/ratter. The reasons for this are simple: If the advantage is with the attacker then there's really no point in owning space, and if ratting or other forms of carebearing become too dangerous then no one will bother doing it.
Or does anyone not know of the current situation of lowsec space? (And all the risk vs rewards whines there are on the subject)
Then there's the definition of victory for either side that makes a huge difference. The attacker wins when the defender loses his ship, the defender wins when he does not lose his ship. It costs me nothing to not kill a guy, but if I DO kill him then he loses his ship, and I gain his drops. Because of this I, as an agressor, should have a fairly large disadvantage.
Let's say they make it so that neither side has an advantage, that there is roughly a 50% chance of either side coming out successful in this game of cat and mouse. That would mean that for every time someone gets away, they get killed the next time. Is that really fair, in any way, to the defenders?

2)Truth be told I wouldn't mind seeing local removed, but I'd want to see some sort of advantage given back to the defenders. IMO a good comprimise would be a POS mod (not something with huge fitting reqs, but that needs sov lvl 2 or 3) that alerts members of an alliance if there is a hostile in system, or maybe anchorable guns for gates Twisted Evil


The advantage always on the defender?

What about the element of surprise!?

I mean sure there are log in traps but thats really low.

Every time local threads are mentioned people only see how it will affect their side. If you are ratting in a system off the beaten path a few jumps out from the station systems and entryways your odds of seeing any one but the lowly isk farmer are quite high. The effort of scanning down some one in all of those systems that make up 0.0 would be tedious and the importance of choosing to rat in 100 AU systems as opposed to -1.0 systems becomes quite apparent.

343conspiracy43345
Posted - 2007.09.19 12:18:00 - [114]
 

Edited by: 343conspiracy43345 on 19/09/2007 12:18:22
Originally by: Khan Soriano
So now we all know we will have more ships that are supposed to be 'covert' in some way.

That brings me to the eternal question of: Why the hell do we need to see pilots in local chat?????

How do you actually prepare covert operations in your Black Ops BS if the second you all jump into the system everybody and their mother knows that local went from 2 NPCers to 10ppl, all from some different alliance/corporation???

If CCP is afraid to implement such change (make it work like alliance chat ie. if you speak on it then you become visible) because it would make the game too hard for some of their client base (yes fluffy carebears & mission *****s I'm talking about you) then at least consider doing it in 0.0, its supposed to be this 'hard and hostile space', remember?

The way it is now, loosing a ship while hunting rats in 0.0 is almost impossible if you're not a total idiot and recent heavy usage of cloaked BS only makes it even easier (now even total idiots are pirate proof).

I'd also like to know if you plan on doing the whole 'make cloaked ships scannable in some way' idea, since it seems like a good time to do it.




You are in for a big surprise you spy or assassin you.

Brixer
Dai Dai Hai
Posted - 2007.09.19 12:38:00 - [115]
 

Edited by: Brixer on 19/09/2007 12:40:23
Originally by: Sfatia
Edited by: Sfatia on 15/09/2007 08:49:06
Noone needs local! and it would benefit both the hunters and hunted if u have it replaced with constelation chat.
...
if u have now constelation chat ur corp/ally see them coming from further out and so they can form a gang to counter gives time for the miners to go safe or grab their pvp ships and actually have chance to give them the fight they were looking for.
...




They don't look for a fight, they look for a gank with the help of rats. Why do you think we got tons of people asking for KMs to be sent to the attacker when the rat gets final blow ?
If they where looking for a fight they can just linger around in a system long enough for the defenders to get their PvP ships out.. But no, sending in a cloaked scout/ceptor to find the victim in the belt first seems to be the mainstream.




Death Kill
Caldari
SolaR KillerS
UN1CUM
Posted - 2007.09.19 12:41:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Saint Luka


0.0 warefare would just turn into a ghey fest.




the current state is not ghey?

Major Death
Caldari
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.09.19 12:58:00 - [117]
 

Quote:
the current state is not ghey?


With all the camping going on, can it be anything else?

Malachon Draco
eXceeded
Posted - 2007.09.19 13:21:00 - [118]
 

I don't think removing local will have any helpful effect for roaming gangs. It would skew the risk/reward so badly towards risk for miners and ratters that you will see a massive withdrawal to empire space of those groups.

I.e. yes, removing local would enable roaming gangs to catch ratters and miners by surprise, but the problem would become that there would be no more ratters and miners to catch by surprise because they all said '**** this' and left.


Johho Bulon
Gallente
Freelancer Union
Unaffiliated
Posted - 2007.09.19 15:07:00 - [119]
 

I've been giving this a little bit of thought.

Local obviously is used as a tactical tool by practically all players.
And removing it would make the game harder in someways for many people if there is not a replacement of some kind.

As has been mentioned by some posters, aircraft have transponder beacons that broadcast their assigned identity.
There is no reason to assume that ships in Eve space would not be subject to similar requirements, and hence no reason to suspect that ships could not have those beacons disabled.

It could be that ships with their beacons active always show up in local no matter the sec status.
If turned off things could be different depending on sec status.

So in high sec, where a Gate is linked to the powerful security network a player might show up in local straight away or after a few seconds delay.

In lo sec he gains a few seconds for each sec level lower he goes, maybe gaining a minute in 0.1

In 0.0 where the Empires and wealthy factions have been kind enough to set up gates but provide no security the Beacon disabled ship would not show up at all.

All seems nice enough but leaves the need for intel for any 0.0 residents.

Having a couple scouts sat on a gate all day, or patrols checking out systems might be fine for a large alliance, but is obviously not practical for small groups and individual ratters.

How do we help them out?

Perhaps we could have anchorable scanners.
I am thinking that a scanner would be a bubble type device that could be anchored near a gate and configured to a player or corps liking.

For example, the scanner could be configured to post a timestamped message in local/corp/intel channel linking the player and shiptype of players who enter the scan bubbles radius with the scanner name as poster, and send messages if it was being attacked.

Scanner bubbles could come in the typical three sizes requiring particular skills to use, just like warp bubbles.

An enterprising corp/player/alliance could anchor scanners around gates and in belts.
This would let any group still retain their intel, albeit with a small amount of work.
It would even let them build up a surveillance network in a group of systems.

As always the intelligence gathering network could be circumvented, ships that don't pass through the scan bubble radius would not show up.

Covops and cloakers would not show while cloaked and so pass through without their details being relayed.

Also the new covops BS might enter the system and be seen, but no one would be able to tell instantly, how many covops had jumped through it into the system once it was away from the scan range of the scanner.

It could perhaps report local phenomena, such as Cyno's or maybe not if that overpowered it as an intel gathering tool.

Lets have a look at the following simulated intel channel message from a large bubble in PF at the Orvolle gate:

PF-Orvolle Gate scanner says: 15:40:20 Gate activation
PF-Orvolle Gate scanner says: 15:40:25 Johho Bulon, Thorax 13km
PF-Orvolle Gate scanner says: 15:40:26 Gate activation
PF-Orvolle Gate scanner says: 15:40:27 Khan Soriano, Huggin 26km
PF-Orvolle Gate scanner says: 15:41:20 Johho Bulon, Capsule 13km

Eek looks like I got popped :S
Now that being PF it probably would have a much different tale, such as 15 ships passing through and many pods showing up and so on, but I think you get the drift.

I think it could work, and best of all it gives us the players the ability to build our own intel gathering network instead of relying on the cheap local channel to decide if a system is safe or not.
It would also be another front in any inter corp battle, destroying the eyes and ears of the opponents thus forcing them to come out and replace them, risking ships and pilots in the process.

What do you guys think?

Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2007.09.19 15:17:00 - [120]
 

Ah more annoying people who naturally assume that removing local means not providing any way to find people at all.

Remove local. Give pirates other tools to find people. Ignore people who say it will ruin eve.


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