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skragg
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.09.09 21:53:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: KardonHarman
Originally by: skragg
Please do not take this the wrong way, we are not claiming anything other than the GM's let us down. PL did lock prior to the fight but such is life if the GM had done his job and set off the ECM burst then great all would have been fair.

It unfortunately wasn't a fair fight because the GM's failed. I would ask any of the Pandemic Legion to check their kill mails there were 10 of us that you killed Embarassed and see for themselves GM Nova was not on any of the killmails yet in all other matches he was.

Regardless though great fight Snigg and see you next time Very Happy
It was a blast.


I wasnt there, but i suspect that the FC had called targets and the guys were spamming the target button during the count down knowing the burst will break the lock.. but being "on the button" so to speak.

that said as above once the command ships got amongst your group I thnk you were screwed TBH,



Agreed m8 and tbh I think we may have struggled regardless. I do not lay any complaints at the door of PL, I am upset by the lack of professionalism by the GM's though with them being under the influence of alcohol this probably explains their tardyness.

Unlucky in the final also m8, that HUN setup was a good one.

Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.09.09 21:54:00 - [32]
 

The GM's ****ed up. I'm very sorry we had to win that way.

Shamis


MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2007.09.09 21:58:00 - [33]
 

you guys could of both self destructed in protest :P

Liet Traep
Minmatar
Dark-Rising
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.09 21:58:00 - [34]
 

I've been in a previous tourney and watched and listened to another team in the tourney while they were on vent. And mistakes do happen. I've personally seen them in previous tourneys. This was by far the best run tourney yet I think. But still mistakes happen. It sucks though when you're given such a huge disadvantage for no fault of your own. Especially in such a tight tourney where the loss of even a single frigate can cause a massive chain reaction.

All I can say is that each tourney CCP seems to get better and better at running them. Hopefully no one next well get accidentally screwed. Anyway congrats to everyone who showed up to the tourney and fought the good fight. I really enjoyed watching all the matches.

DHB WildCat
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.09.09 22:01:00 - [35]
 

Shamis you needn't apologize to us, we dont blame you or your team.

There is only 2 things I want to say about this.

1) PL ,and Hun congrats you deserved it.
2) CCP I cannot believe that you are under the influence of alcohal on TV, and especially when you are in charge of a running event for your paying customers. I am embarrassed for you.

CagedRage
The Illuminati.
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2007.09.09 22:05:00 - [36]
 

How many GMs does it take to screw in a light bulb?

Darko1107
Caldari
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2007.09.09 22:09:00 - [37]
 

What annoys me most about this, is that the GMs were very strict on rulebreaking by players, i mean weve seen that 5-6 times. They didnt fail to punish these MISTAKES once, forfeiting matches or heal/50ing people for example.

But when a GM makes a mistake, like this 1, suddenly the rules are out of the window and they dont care.

Flinx Evenstar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.09.09 22:14:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: CagedRage
How many GMs does it take to screw in a light bulb?

80


percent gin

Professional as ever CCP Laughing

Ohne
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.09.09 22:29:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: CagedRage
How many GMs does it take to screw in a light bulb?


How many GMs does it take to ECM burst ? :)

ETS4ME
Caldari
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2007.09.09 22:34:00 - [40]
 

Really guys, this does not shock me at all.. And shame on all my corp members for being shocked that CCP gave us more love. You must know, how much the Eve commuinty, and CCP loves us.... GF to all it was very fun, but im glad its over, and we now can get back to making new friends in all the old places..

CagedRage
The Illuminati.
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2007.09.09 23:24:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Ohne
Originally by: CagedRage
How many GMs does it take to screw in a light bulb?


How many GMs does it take to ECM burst ? :)


or to decide that the timing of matches should perhaps be changed a bit earlier? Neutral

Abye
Caldari
Blinking Wallet makes me happy
Posted - 2007.09.10 00:07:00 - [42]
 

CCP Garthagk: "And that is why GMs aren't DEVs" Rolling Eyes

Wasn't it even at an other BE fight ?

thedragoon
Caldari
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2007.09.10 08:29:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Abye
CCP Garthagk: "And that is why GMs aren't DEVs" Rolling Eyes

Wasn't it even at an other BE fight ?


still no word from gm nova on this ?

Gemini Zero
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Southern Cross Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.10 09:37:00 - [44]
 

Burn Eden are anything but sore losers, they just want a fair fight. I can attest to this personally.

During our fight, our Navy Issue Caracal lost connection before the match started. Damn near half of the BE team was asking Nova to not start the fight until our pilot was able to relog. Unfortunately Nova decided to ignore all of our pleas and decided to start the countdown anyway.

So kudos to BE for going out of their way for a fair match.

thedragoon
Caldari
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2007.09.10 09:45:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Gemini Zero
Burn Eden are anything but sore losers, they just want a fair fight. I can attest to this personally.

During our fight, our Navy Issue Caracal lost connection before the match started. Damn near half of the BE team was asking Nova to not start the fight until our pilot was able to relog. Unfortunately Nova decided to ignore all of our pleas and decided to start the countdown anyway.

So kudos to BE for going out of their way for a fair match.


thanks for the comment i just wish the Gm's would shine a light on this and admitt fault and tell us why even when called in local to stop as we were locked they proceeded to let the fight go on.

I will not stop until we get official answers.

for me the amount of time the eve playes spent on this
mistakes like this should not have been made

it takes the shine of anything they have done right Arrow

We want answers and the rest of you should as wellExclamationExclamationExclamationExclamationExclamation

skragg
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.09.10 10:31:00 - [46]
 

Just to clarify, I am not asking for a rematch nor am I contesting the outcome. The tournament is over and the victor declared, mucho kudos to HUN.

All I would really like is:
GM Nova admit that there was a mistake in the start of the fight in that the ECM burst was not activated and that may have given an edge to anyone who locked prior to the go being given in local.
Explain why BE had to be in system 10 minutes prior to their opponents (minor issue)
Explain why for all previous fights the delay in local between the 1 and go was anything upto a maximum of about 2 seconds (well our previous ones anyway). Yet for some reason the delay for our match against PL was a full 5 seconds and when poised over the lock button that is a very very long time. It also emphasises that with such a delay some people may have innocently preempted the word go and ended up with an almost 3 second advantage. (I believe the tournament was ran pretty well but a couple of minor foopars at the end took a little of the gloss off for me)

I would also like to know what is the decision regarding placements. ie Hun 1st (Gratz) PL 2nd (Gratz also) who is 3rd.
At no stage in the tournament was there ever in the schedule or mention of a 3rd place fight off yet just prior to the final match this was mentioned by the GM's. This is absurd, in all tournaments that I know of (there will be others I am not aware of, so please don't troll too much) predominantly the major sports around the world, the 3rd / 4th place play off either takes place prior to the final or the losing semifinalists are equal 3rd with the same rewards given to both. In the pvp tourney the points could have been used as a deciding factor I guess as they were maintained throughout to ensure a means of dealing with ties.
Why suddenly the mention of a play off for third, just because it features BE. Why would this then not be scheduled from the outset in the programme and also be screened prior to the final. Rather than being asked to have a fight off after the final with no tv couverage and when as shown by the closing address of eve tv, most if not all at CCP for the tourney were well under the influence of alcohol.

All in all, great job CCP and EveTV thoughout the tournament though imho you let yourselves and others down at the end.

Omega Man
The Geddy Foundation
Posted - 2007.09.10 11:24:00 - [47]
 

Note to GMs:
Never admit a mistake.

Note to EVETV crew:
Drunks dont make good TV.

Note to HUN:
Congrats guys, best winners of the best tournie so far.

Note to Everyone else:
dry those salty salty tears.

skragg
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.09.10 12:03:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Omega Man
Note to GMs:
Never admit a mistake.

Note to EVETV crew:
Drunks dont make good TV.

Note to HUN:
Congrats guys, best winners of the best tournie so far.

Note to Everyone else:
dry those salty salty tears.


When you have finished with your feeble attempt at a troll. Please read what is being said and not just throw your opinion in without knowing what is being said.

I will outline a few simple facts for you and anyone else who can't / won't read the substance of the thread.

Facts
1. Some pilots locked before the 'go' command was issued in local
2. No GM activated ECM burst
3. Delay of 5 seconds between issue of '1' and the 'go' command.
4. Forced to be ready and in system 10 minutes prior to opponents
5. Positioning of 3rd / 4th place teams

No crying no whining, just wanting answers to clear questions as I believe anyone else would in these circumstances.
I would ask anyone in the same circumstances to truly answer themselves if they would not at least want the answers. Nothing will change the outcome but maybe an apology from the GM's and an acceptance that a couple of mistakes were made would stop the attacks against those posting here. At the end of the day it is not big or clever to hide the truth away just because those who are being lambasted are public enemy No1.

JeanPaul Sartre
THE INTERNET.
Goodfellas.
Posted - 2007.09.10 12:55:00 - [49]
 

Did you guys lock as soon as you saw locks coming your way? No one wants to intentionally break the rules but there is always some pushing in the penalty box.

skragg
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.09.10 13:04:00 - [50]
 

No, I don't believe they did because this would have put us at a disadvantage once the ecm burst was activated.

We required speed of lock therefore we had mods activated and were poised over our first primary contact. If any of ours had locked prior to the word go then they would have immediately sent a volley at their target. I was not locked myself by PL prior to the engagement and I was flying a sensor boosted Manticore and I managed to get a single volley off before I was damped so it will be interesting to see on the video how long prior to my volley flying any missiles were set off from PL. They may have through whatever reason got a fraction of a second ahead of my time but if it is a marked difference then maybe the battle was commenced slightly early.

DHB WildCat
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.09.10 13:11:00 - [51]
 

Yes, I did as soon as I saw flashing red boxes I tried to lock, but the manticores had myself and half the team locked down pretty well. The biggest mistake was the 5-10 seconds between the 3.2.1. (5-10 sec) go. Noone can blame PL for trying to anticipate go, I did it myself a few times in previous matches and got lucky, when go actually appeared. This was a cluster**** from day 1 in regards to NOVA, and true to form he and sharkbait blew it all the way. Great tourny to the competitors, I had a good time, but CCP was a joke through it.

I offer this suggestion. Next tourney, myself and some players....

1) Set the rules
2) Set the prizes, (must be reasonable)
3) Tell the GM's what to do before, during, and after the match since we would not have GM tools.
4) Decide penalties.
Example. Not disqualify goons, but remove one cruiser and have the fight.

Ifni
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.09.10 13:46:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: DHB WildCat
This was a cluster**** from day 1 in regards to NOVA, and true to form he and sharkbait blew it all the way. Great tourny to the competitors, I had a good time, but CCP was a joke through it.

I offer this suggestion. Next tourney, myself and some players....

1) Set the rules
2) Set the prizes, (must be reasonable)
3) Tell the GM's what to do before, during, and after the match since we would not have GM tools.
4) Decide penalties.
Example. Not disqualify goons, but remove one cruiser and have the fight.

I wrote out a nicely eloquent response to your post, but honestly it's worthless when faced with such ******edness.

If you disliked the rules that much you should have gone with your initial response and not competed.

I for one was glad to see Terra Incognita. competing, and I've gladly revised my opinion of BURN EDEN over the last few Tournaments, but when you come out with stuff like this, you're just sounding like a child who didn't get his way.

Making such ridiculous demands to the GM's and organisers after telling them it was a cluster**** that they created shows that you truly have no understanding of what went on behind the scenes to make your little parade, in front of 10s of thousands of people, happen.

skragg
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.09.10 13:59:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: skragg on 10/09/2007 14:02:33
Originally by: Ifni
I wrote out a nicely eloquent response to your post, but honestly it's worthless when faced with such ******edness.




I have kept my responses smack free and would ask you to please post your eloquent response if it was aimed at any of the points I have made.
Unless ofc that is your intention, to derail the thread with a troll, I would hope not though.

Thanks

DHB WildCat
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.09.10 15:40:00 - [54]
 

No skragg it was in response to mine, but to Ifni, good job. I know you are defending your friends, and I have to say, it appeared you were one of the few guys not drunk on the last day and tried to keep things organized. Thank you for that.

Ifni - "Trev you really need to be quiet now" made me smile 8)

Farscape Hw
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.09.10 15:47:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Farscape Hw on 10/09/2007 15:52:03
after what all ive seen since this time yesterday, i must say...

i think there is a game or a bet at ccp. see how many times they can **** thier customers over and still keep them.

skragg
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.09.10 15:57:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Farscape Hw
Edited by: Farscape Hw on 10/09/2007 15:52:03
after what all ive seen since this time yesterday, i must say...

i think there is a game or a bet at ccp. see how many times they can **** thier customers over and still keep them.


I think if so many of us didn't have so much invested in the game in terms of multiple accounts and many years and there was something similar out there we would have left by now. They have us over the barrel and they know it though I keep praying that their respect for their customers does improve but alas that is for a different thread I believe.

Would be great to get an official answer to the requests though it seems as soon as the programme finished last night they washed their hands of the tourney for this time. No real comments, no update of standings, no downloads of finals fights. It is almost as if they don't care.

Ibaneez
Amarr
Fallen Angel's
Posted - 2007.09.10 16:10:00 - [57]
 

Perhaps they are still having a hangover and cant stand to watch their monitors yet.
But it would be professionally if they would respond with a statement. At least the GM involved should reply.

Im curious to what he has to say. Seeing how close matches are, and how 1 ship can make or break the match people shouldnt pretend it wouldnt have affected the match.
Not saying that the winner would have been different, but it does impact the game.

cheers (xcept for ccp personel, sober up will ya)
Ibaneez


Ifni
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.09.10 16:37:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: skragg
Just to clarify, I am not asking for a rematch nor am I contesting the outcome. The tournament is over and the victor declared, mucho kudos to HUN.

All I would really like is:
GM Nova admit that there was a mistake in the start of the fight in that the ECM burst was not activated and that may have given an edge to anyone who locked prior to the go being given in local.

I can't talk for GM Nova, as far as I know there should have been an ECM burst prior to the match. However I have only your word that there wasn't one, since I myself was not present. The Opux yachts were moored outside of the ECM Burst's range to avoid any loss of target lock.

Originally by: skragg
Explain why BE had to be in system 10 minutes prior to their opponents (minor issue)

Teams had to be present before their matches since we were attempting to maintain the schedule that we had. It's simply a matter of being present promptly for the fight.

Originally by: skragg
Explain why for all previous fights the delay in local between the 1 and go was anything upto a maximum of about 2 seconds (well our previous ones anyway). Yet for some reason the delay for our match against PL was a full 5 seconds and when poised over the lock button that is a very very long time. It also emphasises that with such a delay some people may have innocently preempted the word go and ended up with an almost 3 second advantage. (I believe the tournament was ran pretty well but a couple of minor foopars at the end took a little of the gloss off for me)

I wasn't paying particular attention to the exact time of delivery for the final 'Go' signal. The EULA that everyone agrees to at the start of the game (at least once) states that the quality of gameplay may vary since the internet itself is not a static object. as such, GM Nova may have sent his final command to commence your fight at exactly 1 second after his '1' in local.

Either way we will never know, but I will concede that if someone were attempting to preempt the prediction of the 'Go' signal and got it correct, they may garner some marginal advantage, although for a setup that doesn't rely upon EWar as it's lynch pin, this would have been less of an issue.

A similar event was seen during the Hedonistic Imperative that they ended up being disqualified for. They attempted to preempt the 'Go' signal and ended up paying for it.

Originally by: skragg
I would also like to know what is the decision regarding placements. ie Hun 1st (Gratz) PL 2nd (Gratz also) who is 3rd.
At no stage in the tournament was there ever in the schedule or mention of a 3rd place fight off yet just prior to the final match this was mentioned by the GM's. This is absurd, in all tournaments that I know of (there will be others I am not aware of, so please don't troll too much) predominantly the major sports around the world, the 3rd / 4th place play off either takes place prior to the final or the losing semifinalists are equal 3rd with the same rewards given to both. In the pvp tourney the points could have been used as a deciding factor I guess as they were maintained throughout to ensure a means of dealing with ties.
Why suddenly the mention of a play off for third, just because it features BE. Why would this then not be scheduled from the outset in the programme and also be screened prior to the final. Rather than being asked to have a fight off after the final with no tv couverage and when as shown by the closing address of eve tv, most if not all at CCP for the tourney were well under the influence of alcohol.

Indeed, the first and second place positions were obviously decided during the tournament itself. I know who is being given the third position but can not reveal anything until GM Nova makes his post about it. You will just have to wait for his post on the matter, I'm afraid.

Ifni
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.09.10 16:38:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: skragg
All in all, great job CCP and EveTV thoughout the tournament though imho you let yourselves and others down at the end.

The use or abuse of alcohol on the set is something that has been debated before. We have had several people within CCP consume alcohol on set quite happily. The truth is that CCP are radically different to almost every other game company in the business. This can be seen in the fact that they even consider running this event, and for better or worse, the amount of interaction they have with the player base. In this instance it was a little silly and for people such as yourself, crossed a line that you would probably rather it hadn't. I was attempting to reign the others in, but it's all in good fun, and as a result Oveur was quite expressive on alot of game design features coming up in the not too distant future.

Of course, after all of this, for every person who feels we may have over stepped the mark, there are others who feel that this is exactly the image that makes people like CCP; they are just people enjoying the game and it's environs the same way that the players at home do. Whatever people's personal opinions on the levels of professionalism displayed on the final day, the tournament itself was an immesnse success and should hopefully lay the groudwork for future events to build upon.

skragg
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.09.10 17:11:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Ifni
I can't talk for GM Nova, as far as I know there should have been an ECM burst prior to the match. However I have only your word that there wasn't one, since I myself was not present. The Opux yachts were moored outside of the ECM Burst's range to avoid any loss of target lock.



Erm, I think if you will read other posts this has been agreed by Pandemic Legion who have I am sure seen no GM on the killmails that they all received.
Yes, you 'only have my word' but if there was an official response telling the 'truth' then that would help. In the mean time evidence gathered from statements of all those there will have to suffice.

Originally by: Ifni
I wasn't paying particular attention to the exact time of delivery for the final 'Go' signal. The EULA that everyone agrees to at the start of the game (at least once) states that the quality of gameplay may vary since the internet itself is not a static object. as such, GM Nova may have sent his final command to commence your fight at exactly 1 second after his '1' in local.

Either way we will never know, but I will concede that if someone were attempting to preempt the prediction of the 'Go' signal and got it correct, they may garner some marginal advantage, although for a setup that doesn't rely upon EWar as it's lynch pin, this would have been less of an issue.

A similar event was seen during the Hedonistic Imperative that they ended up being disqualified for. They attempted to preempt the 'Go' signal and ended up paying for it.



Again as above multiple statements from seperate people stating the delay. Did we all lag out, or is it the same old excuse of poor connections nothing to do with a problem trying to set off the ecm burst and then finally just starting the match without it therefore possibly effecting the result. Again, honesty and the truth is required from the GM's if we ever get a response. Also, both sides relied on ewar and it was the failire to ecm burst that predifined the outcome of the match. Would have been nice to have had a proper battle like all the others and not have mistakes of organisers decree the victors.

Originally by: Ifni
Indeed, the first and second place positions were obviously decided during the tournament itself. I know who is being given the third position but can not reveal anything until GM Nova makes his post about it. You will just have to wait for his post on the matter, I'm afraid.


Would be great to let those who were involved as either spectators or competitors know what the outcome is. Sort of closes things off nicely.

Ifni, I would ask you to look at what we are saying, examine the facts and make comments on what your gut feeling tells you. This is not meant as a troll (although it may sound like one), please don't make political statements to gain favour with CCP in a vein attempt to ensure that any future events you are at the fore and get your nice CCP memorabilia. It isn't really required, your opinion was decent enough and you ended up with relatively good press.


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