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blankseplocked CCP does not enforce its own EULA or TOS
 
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Eventy
Posted - 2007.09.04 02:12:00 - [1]
 

Hello all,

I have to narrate something that's happened which has raised my ire. Now please note, that by and large I think CCP has does a good job technically. However, I have to criticize their customer relations department or their rule enforcement group.

We had a 'role-player' rob both the corp and members out of significant ISK. No big deal right? It happens? In the process of executing his hist, the player in question did a couple of specific things which enabled him to achieve his purpose.

With naming names, and speaking generally, I first found out about his activities as CEO, when I received a report from three or more members who privately communicated to me that a co-member of the corp has dealt with them in an injurious manner. These private communications took place all within a day of one another, and the members who contacted me had no knowledge that this was happening to anyone other than them. Abuse of players contravenes paragraph 1 of EVE Online TERMS OF SERVICE.

Furthermore, the perpetrator in question managed to arranged for the transfer of items in the game for purposes other than sale, again contravening the EVE Online TERMS OF SERVICE, paragraph 10. This left a number of my players broke and owning a rookie ship again and feeling abused.

So I contacted EVE support (via a petition) before anything else happened, and I informed them what had occurred. I did not hear from them for a number of days, which I took to look over the EULA and the TOS to see exactly what was permitted.

I came across paragraph 7 of the EVE Online TERMS OF SERVICE which prohibits players from violating any local, state, national or international laws or regulations. This has to be a mistake, I thought. Theft, which is almost universally prohibited, is permitted in game. In fact, looking at US law, US law makers have expressedly rewritten US federal and most state law to include virtual things. The US Digital Millennium Copyright Act is the fruit of those labours. US law says that you can be arrested for stealing 'virtual stuff, data, whatever'.

Now are the authorities going to arrest you for stealing in game? I doubt it. The point is, however that if this did get raised in a jurisdiction, they would have the right because other forms of digital theft have been tested in US courts. If CCP wants to specifically permit this in-game, the shouldn't be so sloppy as to prohibit in their EULA or their TOS.

Even if this guy had only contravened paragraph 1 and paragraph 10, he should be subject to some type of action by CCP, even marginally punative. However with Paragraph 7 thrown in I thought I had a chance to seek help from CCP for my corp members.

When I received a response, it read in part:
I'm afraid both corp theft, and scamming is allowed in EVE, as long as no bug or exploit is used.

I didn't quite know if this was simply first line petition support trying to close another ticket or what.

I then noticed that this scammer, cleared his permissions to leave the corp. I reinstated his permissions, and wrote him saying "We support your desire to leave the corp, however must request that you return all Items, ships or mods and ISK to either me, or the original owners prior to leaving. Although the decision to leave the corp resides with you, we cannot allow you to leave until you return what doesn't belong to you.

Before people accusing me of doing some exploiting of my own, my actions were not malicious, and I left the decision to leave in the hands of the scammer, except that I was not allowing him to be free to leave with the spoils of his scam which hurt other members of the corp.

Within a day I received a mail from EVE system stating:
You are here by offically warned for keeping a player in your corp by adding roles to him to reset the 24 hour leave timer. This is not acceptable and considered an exploit.

Eventy
Posted - 2007.09.04 02:15:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Eventy on 04/09/2007 02:18:26
So, the scammer is permitted to flagrantly ignore a number of rules listed in the TOS and EULA, but my own actions of using an 'in-game' mechanism are deemed to be using an 'exploit'?

I'm sorry but there is a great injustice here. I am essentially being force to allow a guy to leave my corp, who has abused other members, breaking the rules to boot with all of the gains of his rule breaking. CCP is free to interpret their own TOS and EULA however they want. But if they are not going to enforce their own rules, with respect to players who are breaking the ruls, give corp CEO's a game mechanism to execute vigilant justice so that someone is.

My question to the community is, does anyone else have experiences where they thought the petition system (which is a dispute resolution system also) is arbitrary, or broke?

Does anyone have some suggestions to fix it?

sableye
principle of motion
Posted - 2007.09.04 02:16:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: sableye on 04/09/2007 02:16:08
he never stole your stuff re-read the terms and conditions ccp owns it all, so there assets just got shifted in the game.

Dahak2150
Arm of Orion
Posted - 2007.09.04 02:18:00 - [4]
 

You are not a lawyer. Stop trying to be.

You are exploiting, stop it. Nobody likes you.

Takarina
Perkone
Posted - 2007.09.04 02:19:00 - [5]
 

Yep you cannot have stolen what you don't own. CCP owns it, you are just borrowing it.

zibelthurdos
Concrete Developments
LOADED CONCRETE
Posted - 2007.09.04 02:21:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: zibelthurdos on 04/09/2007 02:21:09
Hi, Welcome to eve online.

can i have what's left of your stuff?

Eventy
Posted - 2007.09.04 02:21:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Eventy on 04/09/2007 02:23:11
Thieft may not be the issue, but if you actually read the post, you'll notice that I actually identified a number that were. Please try reading the post before responding.

Thoughtful replies that actually contribute to the dialogue would be appreciated. If you have nothing relative to say, please don't contribute mindless responses. Thanks.

(Its almost a shame you have to urge the trolls not to be trolls by putting in a disclaimer).


Grez
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
Posted - 2007.09.04 02:25:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Grez on 04/09/2007 02:25:13
He didn't force them to give him their isk. If he stole your corps assets, then someone either gave him the rights to do that.

You need to exercise some common sense I'm afraid. This is EVE-Online. It's a dirty world, where people can infiltrate your corp and steal the assets (and CCP owns them, you do not - it's not classified as stealing).

I'm sorry to see it happen, but you need to excercise some restriction in the amount of trust you give out to people. Giving just anyone access to a corp hanger is a bad idea, and he can't of forced ISK from the player's accounts without hacking them, so what he did was player error - not his, but yours and your members.

Learn from your mistakes, and try again.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.09.04 02:26:00 - [9]
 

1. YOU don't own anything in EVE. You lease the right to use "your stuff" in-game by having an active subscription.
2. The TOS/EULA allows but does not force CCP to take action against those that break it.
3. It is generally known that scamming, griefing and metagaming is allowed as long as it's being done for a purpose other than ONLY annoying the other character.
4. STFU already.

Nighlighted
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2007.09.04 02:28:00 - [10]
 

This is when you go get a Merc corp to shoot the thief.

Or better yet, let his name be known so other corps will shun him.

Granted I don't see with whats wrong with keeping him in the corp until he returns the stolen assets, but it seems a GM didn't like it.

Jarryn Kell
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.09.04 02:48:00 - [11]
 

So if this goes like I think it might,

can i have your stuff?

Nighlighted
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2007.09.04 02:53:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Jarryn Kell
So if this goes like I think it might,

can i have your stuff?


No I made an attempt to give him some good advice.. I get his stuff...

Orikon Maru
Posted - 2007.09.04 02:54:00 - [13]
 

To the OP:

You gave him hanger access. He took stuff. This is your fault for trusting the wrong guy.

Some people in your corp gave him isk when they shouldn't have. Again, their fault, not his.

Scams, spying, corp theft, ect, are part of the game, and not in any way a violation of the EULA or TOS. You got robbed, your whining about it in public. This, quite frankly, makes you look bad. Either:

1) Let it go.

2) Hunt him relentlessly, pod him over and over, suicide gank him if needed, etc, untill he hates his eve life so much he doesn't log in anymore.

But asking CCP to solve it for you is just plain weak.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2007.09.04 02:57:00 - [14]
 

owned

and you really should be a little more clear on what the "abuse" was

oh noes he shot me/blew up/podded thats abuse!!!! if that was the case i don't think anyone would be playing eve.

Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Umbra Synergy
Posted - 2007.09.04 03:02:00 - [15]
 

that time of the month again

seriously, we get some wannabe lawyer trying to justify the same tired exploit every month

get over it, its a FREAKEN game

Nanus Parkite
Mercenary Forces
Posted - 2007.09.04 03:03:00 - [16]
 

If the offender abused corp members then that needs to be dealt with by the affected players. I'm sure if they submit a petition listing the date and time of the offensive remarks then the GMs will swiftly deal with it.

Natassja Johannessen
Gallente
Throne of Tragedy
Posted - 2007.09.04 03:06:00 - [17]
 

I think ppl are right and wrong here...sure scamming is part of eve but in the event of a corp scammer why shouldn't you be allowed to keep him in until he gives back what he stole or for the corp to deal with him(pod him many many times over)? Why can he ruin everyones fun and get away free with his spoils to do as he likes? Sadly, i already know the answer to this as any crimes committed in EVE are severely outbalanced with with regards to the punishment.

Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Umbra Synergy
Posted - 2007.09.04 03:09:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 04/09/2007 03:08:52
simply put, because it is a form of harassment, and counter to the "force no one" attitude that ccp takes to game mechanics

they can hunt him down and kill him, they can hire mercs to do it, they can name him and shame him in c&p, but they have no right to FORCE him to stay in the corp

techzer0
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.09.04 03:10:00 - [19]
 

I gotta try this... Laughing

Sorry, I'm broke... and uh, stuff.

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2007.09.04 03:16:00 - [20]
 


Sorry if you do not like the answer others gave but it makes them no less true. You do not "own" anything in EVE. It all belongs to CCP and per their rules thieving in the game is permitted. If you honestly think local/state/federal law was broken here feel free to retain an attorney and contact the FBI (or equivalent where you live). Good luck with that. Rolling Eyes

As for the guy harassing your players they should independantly petition CCP with a harrassment petition and let CCP sort it out. We have no details here of what that harrassment entailed. Doesn't really matter. That is for CCP to sort but general smack talk is not harrassment.

Finally your bit about reinstating roles to keep him in the corp is a known exploit and petitionable offense. Regardless of your reasoning this rule is in place precisely to prevent what you were trying to do. As CEO you certainly should have known that. Be glad you only got a warning.

Corp thieves suck and are lame and it is undertandable you are upset but then you only have yourself to blame. There have been very high profile corp thefts in the past that likely dwarf whatever this guy got away with by orders of magnitude. If you did not know that such things happen you have been living under a rock. There ARE tools in place to prevent this from happening to an extent (how did your players lose everything but their noob ships?). Take the time to secure your assets and be insanely careful of who you trust.

Been playing with the mates in my corp for over 3 years and we trust each other implicitly. We still do not have wallet access worth mentioning or access to all hangars and it is best that way for a variety of reasons.

Time to tighten your policies. Hard lesson. Hopefully you learned from it.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.09.04 03:18:00 - [21]
 

"Never give rights to access stuff you can't afford to lose" Twisted Evil

v1nk3r
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.09.04 03:19:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Dahak2150
You are not a lawyer. Stop trying to be.




People who over analyze a video game like this sound completely stupid.

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2007.09.04 03:27:00 - [23]
 


Quote:
I came across paragraph 7 of the EVE Online TERMS OF SERVICE which prohibits players from violating any local, state, national or international laws or regulations. This has to be a mistake, I thought. Theft, which is almost universally prohibited, is permitted in game. In fact, looking at US law, US law makers have expressedly rewritten US federal and most state law to include virtual things. The US Digital Millennium Copyright Act is the fruit of those labours. US law says that you can be arrested for stealing 'virtual stuff, data, whatever'.


OK, number 1. CCP owns all electronic content.
2. For theft to occur, the owner must be deprived of the item/s
3. Your corp thief did not deprive CCP of their electronic content, or manipulate it in a way which prevents their access. How? Because CCP can always rollback changes. Therefore, no crime was committed.

I love it when high and mighty arguments forget the basics.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.09.04 03:29:00 - [24]
 

All "digital assets" [if they can be defined as such] are explicitly owned by CCP, and any such access you have to them is based on the explicit contract accepted as you accepted the EULA.

Since the ownership of the assets never changed hands[CCP still owns them], and since the lease of the assets stipulated that such assets could be apropriated in said manners, there is no legal backing for this claim.

Berrik Radhok
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.09.04 04:04:00 - [25]
 

no one cares shut up

Rosemary Robot
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.09.04 04:16:00 - [26]
 

u mess wit da cobra... u get da DMCA notice Twisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted Evil

Yao Ying
Potsdam Royal Guards
House of Mercury
Posted - 2007.09.04 04:17:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Eventy
Edited by: Eventy on 04/09/2007 02:23:11
Please try reading the post before responding.


I actually read it. All I have to add is:



WWHGAGHAGHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHA

JonnyWarhawk
The Scope
Posted - 2007.09.04 04:22:00 - [28]
 

Waste of my time, everyone else's and internet space. Please remove yourself from the forums.

Eventy
Posted - 2007.09.04 04:33:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: JonnyWarhawk
Waste of my time, everyone else's and internet space. Please remove yourself from the forums.


JonnyWarhawk, I welcome you to express your right NOT to read this thread, and to move along.

Others have posted intelligent comments here and thoughtful, not mindless comments are appreciated (even one's I don't necessarily agree with).

I would like to keep him in my corp until he returns what isn't his. If he can abuse my members as he has, I should be able to deny him his right to leave until he returns what wasn't his.

Ever seen the sign they put on a military base? By entering here, you consent to be searched. If you do not consent, do not enter..


Value Added
Pronger Physics Research Dept.
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.09.04 04:48:00 - [30]
 

This thread is what makes corp theft so funny.


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