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Ismern
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.08.29 00:40:00 - [1]
 

Ok, let's be honest, most if not all of the assault frigates are useless. Nobody flies them and if they do, they don't get anything done (except perhaps Harpy pilots). People used to use them to tank complexes and they excelled at that task, but now they're pretty crappy.

To be honest, I don't know much about how to improve on them, but I did have one idea. Make the Ishkur into an anti-interceptor / fast frigate platform.

Instead of the current bonuses (except for the drone bay), give it these:

+10km to drone control range per level, +10% to drone speed and tracking per level

What does this do? We all know Warrior IIs are excellent at repelling Interceptors . . . if the interceptor pilot has no skills trained. Otherwise, EVERY interceptor speeds past drones and missiles alike. With these bonuses, an Ishkur pilot with Assault Ships IV could use Warrior IIs that go at max (no modules) 8820 m/s and can be issued orders out to 97km (drones will follow the target to about twice that). I'm actually not 100% sure about whether or not the tracking is necessary.

This would give the Ishkur a useful purpose in combat, as opposed to all Assault ships going unused.

Comments? Suggestions?

Calisto Cody
Minmatar
The Black Swan Society
Posted - 2007.08.29 00:42:00 - [2]
 

ermm....isnt this the best AF, that is useful?

Daelana
Posted - 2007.08.29 00:43:00 - [3]
 

Dont touch my ishkur! Evil or Very Mad

wettestwillie
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.08.29 00:46:00 - [4]
 

I agree. I think all creodron ships should be dedicated for drones. Leave the guns for the Enyo!

Ismern
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.08.29 00:46:00 - [5]
 

I don't know what you guys are using it for? The only thing I ever found an Ishkur useful for was running L1/L2 kill missions really quickly.

As far as PvP goes, all AFs are terrible and will die to just about anything except a basic T1 frigate or T1 destroyer horribly (this includes getting maimed by interceptors).

Enkilil
Minmatar
Thirteen Ninety Three
Posted - 2007.08.29 00:50:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Ismern
Ok, let's be honest, most if not all of the assault frigates are useless. Nobody flies them and if they do, they don't get anything done (except perhaps Harpy pilots). People used to use them to tank complexes and they excelled at that task, but now they're pretty crappy.



Then you're doing it wrong.

AF V ftw. Ishkur and Enyo are teh balls.

`

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2007.08.29 01:13:00 - [7]
 

I've generally been able to survive ceptor attacks in a Jaguar, but it is the 'fastest' AF. Still a bit too heavy, but oh well. Ishkur is considered to be the best AF for PvP, and the best AF in general ;P

Some of them have CPU fitting issues (many Wolf AC fits have this problem) or just bad slot setup for a close-range role and no speed for a long-range one (Enyo anyone?), nearly all of them have very low speed for a frig chassis (Jaguar being the notable exception here) and ALL are way too heavy, making most of them have basically cruiser-class maneuverability. These are the main gripes with them.

NOS nerf (just tested it today, it's beautiful. I love it. Thank you, CCP Very Happy ) did a big boost to all frig / AF / whatever active tanking (and cruiser, actually, considering they've got to worry about heavy NOS). They still don't tank much when webbed, though.

I see them as okay gang ships. However, the price tag for losing one makes it way more cost-efficent to just use a T1 frig. And having a MWD-ing AF (Ishkur) slower then a AB-ing Rifter is just silly to no end.

hammyhamm
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2007.08.29 01:15:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Ismern
As far as PvP goes, all AFs are terrible and will die to just about anything except a basic T1 frigate or T1 destroyer horribly (this includes getting maimed by interceptors).

The hawk can fit a pretty hard shield tank if you get a gistii booster, but lol missiles.

A'ruhn
Caldari
Nation of Muppets
Posted - 2007.08.29 01:17:00 - [9]
 

Wow, I dont know what, where, or how you're flying your AF's, but they have a tendency to **** Inties, frigs, destroyers, and even cruisers pretty damn hard. They're the best bang for your buck in fleet battles as point defense against incoming interceptors/af's (since they dont instapop like destroyers)

Hell, the Ishkur is -THE- Assault frigate... tough, moderately fast, and can pack a hellish wallop for its size.Twisted Evil

I fly amarr though, and i love my sniper Retribution, and my (shiny, new Shocked) rocket-rainstorm Vengeance.Cool

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2007.08.29 01:23:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 29/08/2007 01:26:18
OP is talking nonsense.

I was mission ganked by 3 ships today while flying my 7 L Ion blaster hyperion w/ 1 L NOS. I took down a Gallente navy vexor at very close range after he took out my drones, the arazu had me damped massively, but i managed to get to target an ishkur.

The iskur could not even be hit despite being webbed, NOSsed, target painted, and within optimal. He held me for about 3 or 4 minutes until I ran out of cap charges, and eventuly got the killing blow. (FYI - I'd avoided the 2 cruisers earlier and went back with PVP fit to kill them, but Iskur won the fight for them)

So....useless? Nope....VERY useful when used well.

Ismern
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.08.29 01:26:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Ismern on 29/08/2007 01:26:58
I'm sorry that you don't know how to fly your Hyperion.

Hyperion has no tracking bonus on its large guns. That combined with the sig radius of a small ship means you're not likely to hit it if it's really close to you, regardless of it being webbed.

If you had deployed drones, you would have easily destroyed said Ishkur.

Assault frigates are still mostly useless.

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2007.08.29 01:27:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 29/08/2007 01:28:47
I'm sorry that you dont know what different classes of ships are used for.

With the NOS nerf - they are FAR from useless.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2007.08.29 01:29:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/08/2007 01:30:50
Originally by: A'ruhn
Wow, I dont know what, where, or how you're flying your AF's, but they have a tendency to **** Inties



If they can catch them. They will (if fitted with a web) mostly kill a blaster-taranis or any short-range inty.

Originally by: A'ruhn

, frigs,



Well, i use a Rifter for that these days, more cost-efficent.

Originally by: A'ruhn

destroyers,



Well, most things kill destroyers with relative ease, they're paper-ships. Yeah, AFs are better at surviving the punch from a T2 arty Trasher unlike frigs / bad interceptor pilots, but still, meh.

Originally by: A'ruhn

and even cruisers pretty damn hard.



Errrr... what? A proper PvP cruiser will *shred* a AF tank without problems while tanking a good part of its damage.

Originally by: A'ruhn

They're the best bang for your buck in fleet battles as point defense against incoming interceptors/af's (since they dont instapop like destroyers)


They're OK because they don't really get shot by anything much, and a fleet battle is way different then small gang combat or solo. Anyway, defense against interceptors? Er, what?

Originally by: A'ruhn

Hell, the Ishkur is -THE- Assault frigate... tough, moderately fast, and can pack a hellish wallop for its size.Twisted Evil



Agreed, although it's waaay too expensive and you can't deny it's slow as hell.


Edit: someone doesn't know how to fly a Hyperion Laughing

Stakhanov
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2007.08.29 01:35:00 - [14]
 

You know , it's not forbidden to fit drone modules and rigs on the ishkur.

AFs are fine. If fitted to counter , T1 cruisers can kill any webbed AF , just like T1 BS can kill any webbed HAC. It's the way ship classes are supposed to work.

A'ruhn
Caldari
Nation of Muppets
Posted - 2007.08.29 01:38:00 - [15]
 

Most of the stuff you said, yeah, it can go either way, depends on who's fighting who, but in general, I've had good luck with AF's and consider them (besides bombers) to be one of my favorite classes of ships to fly.

As to the cruiser argument, Amarr AF's are notably durable, maybe thats why... or maybe I've fought nublet cruiser pilots. Who knows.ugh

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2007.08.29 01:38:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/08/2007 01:38:27
Originally by: Stakhanov
You know , it's not forbidden to fit drone modules and rigs on the ishkur.

AFs are fine. If fitted to counter , T1 cruisers can kill any webbed AF , just like T1 BS can kill any webbed HAC. It's the way ship classes are supposed to work.


Agreed, but my gripe is that they're both a bit too expensive and a bit too damn heavy... a HAC is still, you know, faster then a BS (or even BCs for that matter)?

MITSUK0
Posted - 2007.08.29 01:44:00 - [17]
 

The AF's are expensive because people keep buying them, probably becuse people keep spouting off that they can take on cruisers...

Which they can not. Unless the cruiser is a noob and then you could have done him over in a rifter anyway.

If they where cheaper they could work well as heavy tacklers and anti-frig platforms or damage dealers for frig gangs. As it stands right now it is more efficient to either use a cruiser, a destroyer or an inty for the roles I mentioned.

I guess the real problem is the utter lack of a role for these ships beyond hammering lvl 1/2 missions.

The StrayDawg
GoonFleet
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2007.08.29 01:53:00 - [18]
 

The only thing I ever found AF's kinda useful for is ratting with fighters.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2007.08.29 02:04:00 - [19]
 

an ex corpmate killed a raven in his ishkur.

and him + another corpmate killed a drake in assault frigs.

my harpy is one of my favorite ships.

not sure how things will work after the nos nerf, assult frigs cant nos down the cap on bigger ships, but bigger ships cant insta drain assault frigs.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2007.08.29 02:17:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/08/2007 02:17:53
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
an ex corpmate killed a raven in his ishkur.



So? I've ransomed a Hurricane with my Jaguar. Nearly killed a Myrm two days ago in a Rifter (capped out as he had only two drones left, must get cap skills to V). A couple of days ago me and a corpmate (Hurricane and Myrm) killed a Mega at a gate with sentry gun aggro, of all things. Etc, etc... it doesn't mean that any of these things should happened if their pilots have had the SP and the brains to actually fit and fly their ships.

Theres tons of pilots who fit (and fly) their ships like complete muppets. It doesn't really mean anything.

Don't get me wrong - i absolutely love flying the little buggers. It's just that unfortunately they're not very ISK-efficent, and killing sensibly fit cruisers in them is extremely unlikely. Especially in any close-range fit.


Arrias Luvius
Posted - 2007.08.29 02:17:00 - [21]
 

All I have to say is that I have used many many AF's as a heavy tackler and its mostly effective. Just use it wisely and you will be fine. Yes you will lose some just pick your targets appropriately and be smart. Simple as that.

Neena Valdi
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2007.08.29 06:08:00 - [22]
 

Something must be wrong with me... but I actually agree with the goon. Very Happy

Norris Packard
Wings of Redemption
Black Flag Alliance
Posted - 2007.08.29 06:35:00 - [23]
 

well first off they have never given the assult ships their second frigate bonus. the enyo could sure use that 10% fall off bonus that the incursus has. they are also way too slow because i think ccp feared making them too fast that they would replace the interceptors. they can't even out run mwding cruisers and thats a problem so they should probaly incress all their speeds a small amount and lower the mass a bit too so they can outrun cruisers.

Arkios Odymei
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.08.29 06:44:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Arkios Odymei on 29/08/2007 06:52:02
AF's (and all smaller ships for that matter) got a nice boost with the Nos fix in this patch. And if you run a small nos you really dont have much to worry about with neuts either.

The Ishkur is one of the better AF's (and arguably the best, but I prefer the Blarpy!). It really doesnt need to be changed.

Af's as a class could use a little bit of a boost tho. 2 things come to mind.

1) Reduce the ships mass and sig radius. (AF's used to have significantly less mass and a smaller sig radius before the RMR patch I believe)

2) Give them a real 4th bonus! For the love of god!!!

One or both of these would be great for AF's and would make them much more popular (Im not sure about giving them both tho... it *might* be a little overpowered but only testing will be able tell)

Just my thoughts

Jei'son Bladesmith
The Storm Knights
The Cool Kids Club
Posted - 2007.08.29 07:01:00 - [25]
 

I was going to make a big rant about how i ♥ my ishkur and vengeance and all the badassery i've committed in them (well, im only starting to commit badassery in my vengeance with khanid mk2, but anyways)

however i'm tired and mildly drunk so im jus gonna say this.....

if you truly dont see any use to assault frigates, fine, dont use them. period. coming on here and saying theyre useless just because YOU cant see their potential is just noobishly silly.

Epic Fail.

Hakar Eyeless
Posted - 2007.08.29 07:14:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Hakar Eyeless on 29/08/2007 07:16:37
Hi Mr. Epic Fail (I really enjoy how you capitalized the letters too, brilliant.) Why don't you give me a PvP situation, any situation you want, where I couldn't fit some cruiser or an interceptor to do the job better than an AF? I'm sure it would be immensely informative.

Arkios Odymei
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.08.29 07:22:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Hakar Eyeless
Edited by: Hakar Eyeless on 29/08/2007 07:16:37
Hi Mr. Epic Fail (I really enjoy how you capitalized the letters too, brilliant.) Why don't you give me a PvP situation, any situation you want, where I couldn't fit some cruiser or an interceptor to do the job better than an AF? I'm sure it would be immensely informative.


Well, I would have probably answer that with (piracy in a 2/10 complex"... but those dont really exist anymore, do they?Razz

They are just fun to fly. They are better than a Frig, and you can take out some Cruisers in them. Thats about it.

Kahleena
W.L.A.M.O.
Posted - 2007.08.29 10:20:00 - [28]
 

Ha ha, read the replies here. You're mentally lapsing if you think no one flies assault frigs or they've lost their usefulness.

Just duo'd a 10/10 complex with a buddy a week back or so, we both flew Ishkurs.

My ratting ship in 0.0 that's never been destroyed to rats or gate camps: Ishkur.

My 0.0 exploration combat ship for encounters, unknowns, etc: Ishkur.

Total ishkurs I've lost in my 2 years of playing Eve: 0.

Yah... so lets change them, or remove them...since obviously they're useless and no one uses them.... more likely you don't know how to use them or fit them, I suggest looking at the Ishkur ship setup threads.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2007.08.29 10:55:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/08/2007 10:58:11
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/08/2007 10:57:43
Originally by: Kahleena
...Ishkurs are beautiful for PvE...


Yes, well, so are Caldari, yet they whine about being able to PvP. Anyway, PvE utility doesn't count. My Jaguars have made about 500M from ratting (mostly from getting the occasional faction spawns), and about 40-50M in PvP. However, i've also lost 6-7 of them in combat (mostly because I was trying to see what I can and cannot take, and face it, attacking real foes is way better then messing around with corp-mates or SISI).

Anyway, i won't say they suck. They're fun ships, awesome for ratting (due to their ability to run / being a tad too small to get locked down in low-sec unlike cruisers). However, for PvP, they can preety much only take the same targets a T1 frig can (except that some can be used to attack ceptors, and some can be used to attack other AFs).

Talking from a PvP utility standpoint, they really need to outpace T1 cruisers (the only one which does is the Jaguar, and not by a very large margin), much like HACs outpace BS (and even BC) and are very near or better then T1 cruiser agility. Also, like HACs, they need four bonuses.

Since I don't rat for ISK anymore, well, ISK/efficency is very important, where AFs don't fare so well.


Dheorl
Surge.
Posted - 2007.08.29 11:10:00 - [30]
 

I never really get the huge increase on mass for AF's. HAC's don't suffer from the same problem although they are just bigger assult ships.

At least put mass closer to if not the same as their frig bases.

Once that has been done then we can see if they need fixing further or not but I think that is there main problem (it may just be that I like agile ships and so that is what I personally want but either way, please do it).


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