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Cythrawl
Caldari
Central Defiance
Insurgency
Posted - 2007.08.22 14:36:00 - [1]
 

I just wanted to know if CCP has said anything about altering all the LP stores to start taking something besides tag-only exchanges in addition to money and LP for faction gear?

As it is, no matter how much we run missions, we're never going to pull down the types of tags needed alone to buy a mass of factional gear unless we buy ships(which have blueprints that need tags) and implants(which aren't factional, mostly). Are we going to start getting different offers? Maybe Pirate tags in lieu of faction tags? Maybe something more like minerals to be used in production of pre-built gear?

I know I for one don't want to lower my gallente faction standings anymore than it is currently. In fact, it'd almost be suicidal if I ever had to go to gallente space for some sort of reason. So I end up turning down the few gallente-killing missions I get.

It's just that it's a concern that if people start turning down missions in total to save factional standings and the tags run dry for buying from other people, factional equipment is going to become extremely hard to get, and will make the old style of waiting on loyalty offers more enticing.

Is this going to be looked at sooner or later? Or are we all in for a rude awakening when we find our loyalty points could possibly become almost useless?

I for one question why we'd need to kill over 400 gallente ships and collect all their tags to buy a 5 run blueprint for 200m caldari rails from a store when we had to get the loyalty points in the first place and a majority of the missions you'll end up running to get those points DON'T actually have gallente ships in them... especially the hauling missions.

Food for thought.

Cythrawl
DEFY Director
Pointless, Rambling Lunatic

Cythrawl
Caldari
Central Defiance
Insurgency
Posted - 2007.08.22 14:41:00 - [2]
 

Oh, and also... maybe the problem with having to have 1200 tags to buy a 5 run pre-built set of caldari rocket launchers. How many missions IS that if you managed to pick up every single gallente tag? A mission that has maybe, 30-40 ships in it. So... atleast like 30 gallente missions alone if there were 40 ships in each one?

Cythrawl
DEFY Director
Yarr The World

FT Diomedes
Gallente
Factio Paucorum
Posted - 2007.08.22 14:48:00 - [3]
 

If you want the nice, shiny faction modules from your faction, you have to kill the enemy faction's ships. A lot of them. You are showing your loyalty to your faction (they are called loyalty points after all). I don't see a problem with this. I just wish I could find more Caldari ships to kill.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2007.08.22 15:22:00 - [4]
 

"I know I for one don't want to lower my gallente faction standings anymore than it is currently."

Then you don't get the good stuff; while those who accept the disadvantage get rewarded by high prices for the items they collect.

See how that works?

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2007.08.22 15:47:00 - [5]
 

If it was possible to get:

a) a decent quantity of tags, especially the mid level, from every anti empire faction missions;

b) a decent quantity of anti empire faction missions;

the argumentations of the 2 previsious poster would hold some water.

As currently things stay I get 1 mission in ten or less against a empire faction, and usually there are more Amarr ships than Caldari (that playing for Gallente corporations, whose LP store require Caldari tags).

Those missions give around 20 different tags. So,even if they were the right mix it would be necessary to run 300 missions for a single offer requiring 600 tags, while with the same 300 missions it wold be possible to get 1.500.000 LP.

There is a serious unbalance between the number of tag required and the number of tag that is possible to acquire in the missions.


FT Diomedes
Gallente
Factio Paucorum
Posted - 2007.08.22 16:00:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
If it was possible to get:

a) a decent quantity of tags, especially the mid level, from every anti empire faction missions;

b) a decent quantity of anti empire faction missions;

the argumentations of the 2 previsious poster would hold some water.

As currently things stay I get 1 mission in ten or less against a empire faction, and usually there are more Amarr ships than Caldari (that playing for Gallente corporations, whose LP store require Caldari tags).

Those missions give around 20 different tags. So,even if they were the right mix it would be necessary to run 300 missions for a single offer requiring 600 tags, while with the same 300 missions it wold be possible to get 1.500.000 LP.

There is a serious unbalance between the number of tag required and the number of tag that is possible to acquire in the missions.




I completely agree with you. That is why I said I wanted more Caldari ships to kill. I would be very happy killing more Caldari ships. I kill all the ones I can find. I'm more than willing to show my loyalty to the Gallente Federation in order to reap the benefits, especially if it means I can never go to Caldari space without fighting the Caldari navy.

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2007.08.22 16:56:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: FT Diomedes
If you want the nice, shiny faction modules from your faction, you have to kill the enemy faction's ships. A lot of them. You are showing your loyalty to your faction (they are called loyalty points after all). I don't see a problem with this. I just wish I could find more Caldari ships to kill.


Exactly. The store is supposed to reward loyalty, not "well, I'll run missions for you provided I don't have to kill any of your actual enemies" Smile We are keeping an eye on the tag situation, but any changes to the status quo will probably involve giving you more faction ships to kill rather than lowering requirements. For the most part, discounting exceptions, assuming we don't change our minds or get hit by a meteor etc etc.

Sazkyen
Posted - 2007.08.22 17:21:00 - [8]
 

Out of pure curiosity, where do I find targets that drop Gallente tags? Because I'm not getting missions that would provide them. Or do you mean we should get the tags from Enemies Abound alone? I was not aware of the fact that there were huntable Gallente ships in-game aside from the few in missions. Where are they?

Zhaine
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2007.08.22 17:52:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: FT Diomedes
If you want the nice, shiny faction modules from your faction, you have to kill the enemy faction's ships. A lot of them. You are showing your loyalty to your faction (they are called loyalty points after all). I don't see a problem with this. I just wish I could find more Caldari ships to kill.


Exactly. The store is supposed to reward loyalty, not "well, I'll run missions for you provided I don't have to kill any of your actual enemies" Smile We are keeping an eye on the tag situation, but any changes to the status quo will probably involve giving you more faction ships to kill rather than lowering requirements. For the most part, discounting exceptions, assuming we don't change our minds or get hit by a meteor etc etc.


Pretty please more anti-faction tag-dropping missions :)

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.08.22 18:08:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: FT Diomedes
If you want the nice, shiny faction modules from your faction, you have to kill the enemy faction's ships. A lot of them. You are showing your loyalty to your faction (they are called loyalty points after all). I don't see a problem with this. I just wish I could find more Caldari ships to kill.

Exactly. The store is supposed to reward loyalty, not "well, I'll run missions for you provided I don't have to kill any of your actual enemies" Smile We are keeping an eye on the tag situation, but any changes to the status quo will probably involve giving you more faction ships to kill rather than lowering requirements. For the most part, discounting exceptions, assuming we don't change our minds or get hit by a meteor etc etc.


Bleep, bleepity bleeping WRONG.
Somebody has to run those "kill the other faction" missions, you just need to purchase the tags from them.

What about the issue of L5 missions.
The lousy LP/ISK rewards due to the "auto-balance" system for rewards MIGHT have worked somewhat decently before, when missions were a "mostly solo" activity, but it was completely and utterly screwed-up by the newly introduced split rewards system and the demands of a L5 mission.

Now add to that the disadvantages of killing "enemy faction" ships, combined with the need to TRADE OUT almost half of the tags (as a Caldari runner for instance, you receive a lot of Minmatar tags too, which are useless to you, so you have to sell/trade them in order to acquire either ISK or Gallente tags from Amarr mission runners in a similar situation), and you have a steady supply of tags that just HAVE TO enter the market.

L5 missions are supposed to be the main source of tags, isn't it ?
But the fact you also need to BE in lowsec to run them (well, there are exceptions, and that's even worse not better, because it's a borderline exploit), and the 2-hour-selfdestruct timer on wrecks makes it painful to collect them.
Right now, L5 missions offer a sub-par income level compared to L4 missions even after taking tag value into account, and a HIGHER RISK, so there's absolutely no freaking reason to even try them unless you're bored as heck.


Would you actually award non-tradeable "kill points" for enemy faction ships exactly like ISK bounties on pirate NPC ships, instead of lootable items (tags), you would have a point.
But with the current tag situation, your portrayal of the situation is at best misleading.

All in all, the current situation of L5 missions, tags and the corresponding LP shop offers is an abject failure in my opinion.

FT Diomedes
Gallente
Factio Paucorum
Posted - 2007.08.22 18:13:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: FT Diomedes on 22/08/2007 18:15:45
Originally by: Sazkyen
Out of pure curiosity, where do I find targets that drop Gallente tags? Because I'm not getting missions that would provide them. Or do you mean we should get the tags from Enemies Abound alone? I was not aware of the fact that there were huntable Gallente ships in-game aside from the few in missions. Where are they?


There have been several threads about this. I hope they add a few more anti-faction missions for Level 1-4 missions. As it is, I happily run all the anti-faction missions I can get, and I am slowly gathering enough tags to fit out my Navy Mega as it should be fitted (even if it works just fine with T2 gear and would be more effective if I used non-Gallente faction gear).

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2007.08.22 21:31:00 - [12]
 

For me the problem is not the tags themselvs but the imbalance between the different sizes. For example Ammatar offers for large mods requier Republic Fleet High Captain, Commander I and Commander II tags in fairly small numbers, 49 tags total for a large armor rep.

But then we look at medium mods, now you need Captain and High Captain but you need a total of 257, and there just isn't that many tags on the market (there are not even enough tags for 2 armor reps on the Amarr market). And then you go down to small armor rep you are up to 710!!! tags.

And it becomes even worse. If you add up the npc buy prices the tags for a large armor rep the total cost is 14.05m, for a medium they cost 16.86m and for a small rep 17.5m. Are you seriously telling me there is nothing wrong with that? Is the small mod really supposed to cost more?

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2007.08.23 07:58:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 23/08/2007 13:50:03
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 23/08/2007 07:59:04
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: FT Diomedes
If you want the nice, shiny faction modules from your faction, you have to kill the enemy faction's ships. A lot of them. You are showing your loyalty to your faction (they are called loyalty points after all). I don't see a problem with this. I just wish I could find more Caldari ships to kill.


Exactly. The store is supposed to reward loyalty, not "well, I'll run missions for you provided I don't have to kill any of your actual enemies" Smile We are keeping an eye on the tag situation, but any changes to the status quo will probably involve giving you more faction ships to kill rather than lowering requirements. For the most part, discounting exceptions, assuming we don't change our minds or get hit by a meteor etc etc.


"We are keeping an eye on the tag situation" is not much.

1 year ago CCP has changed the drop rate of the low level pirate tags, removing them from the ship that dropped them from high sec, but still there are the agent in space that ask the same tags for mission completation to new players, saying that the tags can be found hunting the belts in the nearby systems.

Level 5 mission should have been the source of tags, with high number of them of all denominations, but instead they provide a low number of very high level tags.

Faction war has been delayed (again).

You should get a pace a bit faster than that of a glacier.

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2007.08.23 08:39:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 23/08/2007 08:41:17
Originally by: CCP Greyscale

Exactly. The store is supposed to reward loyalty, not "well, I'll run missions for you provided I don't have to kill any of your actual enemies" Smile We are keeping an eye on the tag situation, but any changes to the status quo will probably involve giving you more faction ships to kill rather than lowering requirements. For the most part, discounting exceptions, assuming we don't change our minds or get hit by a meteor etc etc.


Can we please get hi-sec navy ships at gates dropping tags? I'd seriously love my standing < -5 to gallente to be rewarding somehow, getting a low standing actually needs a bit of effort in the face of training diplomacy.Very Happy

EDIT: err,

Lord WarATron
Amarr
Shadow Warri0rs
Posted - 2007.08.23 09:21:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Lord WarATron on 23/08/2007 09:22:24
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 23/08/2007 08:41:17
Originally by: CCP Greyscale

Exactly. The store is supposed to reward loyalty, not "well, I'll run missions for you provided I don't have to kill any of your actual enemies" Smile We are keeping an eye on the tag situation, but any changes to the status quo will probably involve giving you more faction ships to kill rather than lowering requirements. For the most part, discounting exceptions, assuming we don't change our minds or get hit by a meteor etc etc.


Can we please get hi-sec navy ships at gates dropping tags? I'd seriously love my standing < -5 to gallente to be rewarding somehow, getting a low standing actually needs a bit of effort in the face of training diplomacy.Very Happy

EDIT: err,


Just run your lvl5's in high sec to get piles of tags, since due to a "feature" of certain agents, they send you into high sec insted of low sec only.

Wadaya
Trailerpark Industries
Posted - 2007.08.23 10:29:00 - [16]
 

You can buy the tags, just make a buy order for .01 above npc price.



Wad

Lugburz
Group 2
Posted - 2007.08.23 11:23:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Sazkyen
Out of pure curiosity, where do I find targets that drop Gallente tags? Because I'm not getting missions that would provide them. Or do you mean we should get the tags from Enemies Abound alone? I was not aware of the fact that there were huntable Gallente ships in-game aside from the few in missions. Where are they?


Every time you warp into Gallente space...

What are pirate tags for now? aren't they the enemies of the state aswell? mind you they are harder to get.
By the way people, if you want faction tags the best way to get em is to farm the missions, this is prolly what ccp intended as i now have a shed load from farming a lvl 4 enemies abound mission (well 3 of them for a couple of weeks) boring as hell.... and still dont have enough of those lesser tags? you know the ones for hvy launchers etc.
ugh

Nabar Phargal
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2007.08.23 12:57:00 - [18]
 

I'm curious why the devs favored BS sized faction mods so heavily over frigate and cruiser sized mods.

FT Diomedes
Gallente
Factio Paucorum
Posted - 2007.08.23 13:10:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Nabar Phargal
I'm curious why the devs favored BS sized faction mods so heavily over frigate and cruiser sized mods.


Perhaps they figured that people were more likely to faction fit a BS? Or perhaps the system wasn't as well thought out as it should have been. They definitely should have made it a bit more rational, that's for sure.

Cythrawl
Caldari
Central Defiance
Insurgency
Posted - 2007.08.23 13:43:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: FT Diomedes
If you want the nice, shiny faction modules from your faction, you have to kill the enemy faction's ships. A lot of them. You are showing your loyalty to your faction (they are called loyalty points after all). I don't see a problem with this. I just wish I could find more Caldari ships to kill.


Exactly. The store is supposed to reward loyalty, not "well, I'll run missions for you provided I don't have to kill any of your actual enemies" Smile We are keeping an eye on the tag situation, but any changes to the status quo will probably involve giving you more faction ships to kill rather than lowering requirements. For the most part, discounting exceptions, assuming we don't change our minds or get hit by a meteor etc etc.

Actually, this is where I'm going to counter your explaination. I said 'tag only', but I meant that to encompass the fact that I spend 9 out of 10 missions fighting someone other than a gallente target. How, HOW, exactly is that not being loyal and make it where "I don't have to kill any of your actual enemies Smile"?

It sounds like too much of an easy answer to a question where if this was completely factional warfare, all of my missions would be against gallente or minmatar targets and not pirate factions.

I would like a more comprehensive explanation of why we couldn't be given a more robust LP store that required something besides a solitary form of currency in the nature of tags from the primary racial faction enemy of our mission agent's faction. Not one that shifted the target to the 5 or so offers for factional ships that require pirate tags either.

That's all.

Cythrawl
DEFY Director
In Due Respect

Cpt Placeholder
Posted - 2007.08.23 15:55:00 - [21]
 

You could simply increase the chance of missions against empire factions in a certain division (i.e. Internal Security) and increase the chance of missions against pirates/drones/whatever in another (i.e. Command)

FT Diomedes
Gallente
Factio Paucorum
Posted - 2007.08.23 16:39:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Cythrawl
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: FT Diomedes
If you want the nice, shiny faction modules from your faction, you have to kill the enemy faction's ships. A lot of them. You are showing your loyalty to your faction (they are called loyalty points after all). I don't see a problem with this. I just wish I could find more Caldari ships to kill.


Exactly. The store is supposed to reward loyalty, not "well, I'll run missions for you provided I don't have to kill any of your actual enemies" Smile We are keeping an eye on the tag situation, but any changes to the status quo will probably involve giving you more faction ships to kill rather than lowering requirements. For the most part, discounting exceptions, assuming we don't change our minds or get hit by a meteor etc etc.

Actually, this is where I'm going to counter your explaination. I said 'tag only', but I meant that to encompass the fact that I spend 9 out of 10 missions fighting someone other than a gallente target. How, HOW, exactly is that not being loyal and make it where "I don't have to kill any of your actual enemies Smile"?

It sounds like too much of an easy answer to a question where if this was completely factional warfare, all of my missions would be against gallente or minmatar targets and not pirate factions.

I would like a more comprehensive explanation of why we couldn't be given a more robust LP store that required something besides a solitary form of currency in the nature of tags from the primary racial faction enemy of our mission agent's faction. Not one that shifted the target to the 5 or so offers for factional ships that require pirate tags either.

That's all.

Cythrawl
DEFY Director
In Due Respect


In your original post you stated that you didn't want to lower your Gallente standings any more, so you turn down those missions. By turning down those missions, you are showing that you have some attachment to the Gallente Federation, which the Caldari state does not like.

The LP store, while not perfect, has lots of things that don't require tags. It is not supposed to be a one-stop shopping center.

Slaatibartfast
Forty Two
Posted - 2007.08.23 20:32:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale

Exactly. The store is supposed to reward loyalty, not "well, I'll run missions for you provided I don't have to kill any of your actual enemies" Smile We are keeping an eye on the tag situation, but any changes to the status quo will probably involve giving you more faction ships to kill rather than lowering requirements. For the most part, discounting exceptions, assuming we don't change our minds or get hit by a meteor etc etc.


Just a little question following on from this...

Got no problem with the concept, it makes sense. However, while the larger mods (i.e. bs class) require a reasonable amount of tags , it seems the smaller ones (cruiser and frig) require ludicrous amounts, some needing several hundred. Do you think maybe this is a bit much? Has there been any discussion of either lowering the tag requirement on the relevant mods? Or perhaps lowering the tag drop rate and increasing the value; so that a tag that you would need say 200 of for a module atm, would be changed to needing 20, but the cost would stay the same?

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2007.08.23 21:32:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Wadaya
You can buy the tags, just make a buy order for .01 above npc price.

The player buy orders for the needed tags are already up to around 5 times the npc price. So that won't help you.

Maaku
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2007.08.24 00:17:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Maaku on 24/08/2007 00:20:11
Would it be possible to change missions/create new missions that go only against the direct opponent rather than both opponents?

So far in my thirty missions or so with my Minmatar L4 agent, I haven't gotten any kill Amarr missions (which I don't mind) that didn't also involve killing Caldari (which I do mind). Caldari tags do me no good except to sell, and I don't want to mess up my Caldari faction just for stuff I can only sell.

Maybe more of a branching structure to the missions (Amarr gate, Caldari gate in each pocket for Minmatar/Gallente missions, and vice versa)? This would give people choices as to how to proceed, and would provide more opportunity for them to get the tags they want.

Agent 452
Caldari
Black Briar Strategic Ops
Posted - 2007.08.24 03:34:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: FT Diomedes
If you want the nice, shiny faction modules from your faction, you have to kill the enemy faction's ships. A lot of them. You are showing your loyalty to your faction (they are called loyalty points after all). I don't see a problem with this. I just wish I could find more Caldari ships to kill.


Exactly. The store is supposed to reward loyalty, not "well, I'll run missions for you provided I don't have to kill any of your actual enemies" Smile We are keeping an eye on the tag situation, but any changes to the status quo will probably involve giving you more faction ships to kill rather than lowering requirements. For the most part, discounting exceptions, assuming we don't change our minds or get hit by a meteor etc etc.


Well, let's just say that the LP requirements and tag requirements don't always add up. As a level 4 mission runner, albeit casual and slowly, I find i have enough LP to get quite a few of the lower end faction gear at the moment. I also note that because i have bizzare luck, i haven't done a mission against gallente NPC's in nearly a month. The LP store should not be such that when a caldari pilot gets the VERY OCCASIONAL mission against his sworn enemy (that the caldari apparently rarely fight, because "Fatal, the Rabbit and their friends" are a far greater threat to the empire) the caldari pilot is forced to not complete his mission, so that he may repeatedly farm the enemies and garner tags.

Now the "do more missions, you'll get more tags" argument works great, until you realise that you'll probably get the LP for a Navy Raven before you get the tags for a Rocket Launcher.Confused

Higher probability of gallente missions would be good, force mission runners to polarise their standings. Or at the very least, modify the requirements:drops ratio.

Nabar Phargal
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2007.08.24 13:31:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Nabar Phargal on 24/08/2007 13:31:46
Originally by: Agent 452
Now the "do more missions, you'll get more tags" argument works great, until you realise that you'll probably get the LP for a Navy Raven before you get the tags for a Rocket Launcher.Confused


I have acquired a ballistic control unit BPC, a shield boost amp BPC, a siege missle launcher, and 2 Dual 250mm railguns (why? I had spare tags). I also payed a friend to spend some LP on a couple of cruise missle launcher BPC that I had tags for. I still need 8 Sergeant I, 22 Sergeant II, and 40 Sergeant III tags to get one rocket launcher.

Running L4 missions for caldari corps will get you a CNR:CN rocket launcher ratio of somewhere around 15:1 (edit: I think that ratio is optimistic).

FT Diomedes
Gallente
Factio Paucorum
Posted - 2007.08.24 14:18:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Nabar Phargal

Running L4 missions for caldari corps will get you a CNR:CN rocket launcher ratio of somewhere around 15:1 (edit: I think that ratio is optimistic).


LOL!

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2007.08.25 03:55:00 - [29]
 

using the 1000isk:1 lp ratio, a cn 75mm railgun costs 18mil in lp, 7.2mil in isk, and 400 something tags. a cn 425mm railgun costs 30mil + 12mil + 39 tags.

should have used cn rocket launchers, and cn seige launchers. but i think its similar.

not to mention frigs go pop, cnrs do go pop but not as often.

Khan Dhu
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.08.25 05:31:00 - [30]
 

What I want to know is what's with the complete DEARTH of CNRs on Contracts. There's like...three on there.

Who wants to bet the faction ship offers are getting "adjusted" with this patch?


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