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Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2007.08.16 09:21:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 16/08/2007 11:36:54
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 16/08/2007 09:29:09

In all my time viewing the EVE Forums I do not think I have seen a larger and more unanimous whine than this thread responding to a recent Dev Blog on proposed changes to Ore Compression. It's almost as if they unionized or something.

A more self serving bunch of crap I have not seen in a long time. The whines were complaining of the horror of having to mine low end minerals in 0.0 space or the horrors of having to haul minerals into 0.0. After a lot of this CCP backed off a bit and serioulsy delayed implementation.

Personally I think that was a mistake. I think CCP was right on in its efforts in this case. Consider what ore compression gets you now:

- 430:1 compression ratios
- Frigates that can move as much as TWO freighters (non-compressed) worth of minerals Shocked

This is ok with everyone? Well, if you read the epic thread I linked there is a nod to that being a bit much but overall the impression is leave it alone.

But what does that mean to EVE? Apparently 0.0 is meant to be all blob warfare with cap ships and jetting minerals up is to be as little a nuisance as possible.


"An army marches on its stomach." - Napolean Bonaparte
I think moving minerals should be much more of a nuisance than it is today. Historically wars are won by logistics more than anything else. Surviving in 0.0 in EVE used to be much more difficult. You had to move most everything from Empire to 0.0.

Was this fun? Yes and no. It was a huge pain in the arse. But it made life much more dynamic.

- Your supply lines could, to an extent, be targetted.
- What ships you had were deemed much more valuable because the effort of replacement was greater.
- Taking down an occupying Alliance was (relatively) simpler as it was just harder to survive out there.

This also gave the logistic side of EVE (aka carebears) more relevance. Love them or hate them they were needed even more. Someone had to schlep all that crud all over. And as much as organzing hauler ops with guards was a hassle it added to the depth of EVE.

It was not all just about blobbing a POS with dreads. You had to plan ahead and stock up, you had to keep an eye to supply lines. Yes it made everything more difficult. Some say this is hugely boring and it can be. It can also be exciting as an enemy tries to disrupt your hauling OP. Things get interesting trying to protect a pile of haulers/freighters.

That too boring? God forbid you mine veldspar in 0.0. Many seem to think that is blasphemy. Who would do that? Well, you do it if you have to. 0.0 is supposed to be self sufficient and it can be. Either haul your crud up and deal with that or mine what you need.

In short nerf ore compression out of existance and thus improve the need for carebears in supporting alliances as well as allowing enemies targets besides a POS. Yeah it'll be a hassle but you live in 0.0 with all its great rewards...you should work for it. And while it may be more of a hassle it'll make EVE much more dynamic and interesting.

[emote] Imperator Jora'h moves to the South Pole to avoid the incoming flames. [/emote]

EDIT: I should note that the ore compression of the Rorqual (proposed ORE Cap Ship) is fine as that is its purpose and is balanced (presumably) not to mention it gives more purpose to that ship. For this thread when I say "ore compression" I am talking about using modules to compress ore.

Sin Meng
Gallente
Creative Assembly
Posted - 2007.08.16 09:26:00 - [2]
 

/signed, well said.

Tao Han
Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille
Blade.
Posted - 2007.08.16 09:33:00 - [3]
 

I have to agree, if you arent willing to work for your 0.0 space then you really should not be there in the first place. And work includes mining lowend minerals and protecting your supply chain.

SiJira
Posted - 2007.08.16 09:37:00 - [4]
 

what you need is some alliance support from various regions

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2007.08.16 09:41:00 - [5]
 

Naaah. Things would just go somewhere from 5 to 20 % more expencive in 0.0 and thats all. If you can currently move approx 250 mil trit in one jump without any losses then that figure would drop to 40 mil. 5 extra mil per battleship in 0.0 aint that big deal. That extra 5 mil is btw fuel money for 1 jump in revelations dreadnaught what can carry packaged battleships with just t2 cargo expanders.

Issue was not compression nerf, but too short warning to prepare for it. People have invested quite huge amounts of isk and time into compression prints and just whaking it all overnight would just screw them all over.

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2007.08.16 09:51:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Carniflex
Naaah. Things would just go somewhere from 5 to 20 % more expencive in 0.0 and thats all. If you can currently move approx 250 mil trit in one jump without any losses then that figure would drop to 40 mil. 5 extra mil per battleship in 0.0 aint that big deal. That extra 5 mil is btw fuel money for 1 jump in revelations dreadnaught what can carry packaged battleships with just t2 cargo expanders.


So it gets more expensive. First of all it hits everyone the same. Second I see these endless blob wars with a somehow seemingly limitless supply of ships. Perhaps if they were somewhat more valuable there would be more motivation to pick and choose your fights (adding more strategy is a good thing).

Quote:
Issue was not compression nerf, but too short warning to prepare for it. People have invested quite huge amounts of isk and time into compression prints and just whaking it all overnight would just screw them all over.


I do not think the warning was too short. The blog originally (they changed it) made it sound like it was due at the end of the year. As for investing a huge amount into prints well...out the money today or tomorrow. Either way it is nerfed and certainly many lose money like this when the game needs balance (how many bought up the new Mining Laser Upgrades for huge amounts of money only to find they did not work and when CCP fixes it to work they will nerf it? [rightly so]).

Mr Broker
Posted - 2007.08.16 09:58:00 - [7]
 

Wow, either you are bad at math or this is piece of lie.

Micge
Bring Me Sunshine
Posted - 2007.08.16 10:05:00 - [8]
 

I fully support the OP on this

Maceross
Open University of Celestial Hardship
Art of War Alliance
Posted - 2007.08.16 10:06:00 - [9]
 

I think the OP has missed the point of the argument somewhat unfortunately, either that or simply has not read or cannot understand the scope of the potential knock on effects this change can have.

Yes it is a non intended feature, which should be fixed. However, if this happens it needs to be replaced with an official way of doing it rather then eliminating it entirely, it is not something that should be jumped into lightly.

I applaud CCP for taking a moment longer to consider this change to the game and its deeper repercussions.

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2007.08.16 10:07:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Mr Broker
Wow, either you are bad at math or this is piece of lie.


Bad at math? Where?

Haffrage
Regeneration
Posted - 2007.08.16 10:10:00 - [11]
 

I agree completely. There should be more to building a supercap than buying the blueprints, arranging corp roles, the pos, then lighting some cynos and waiting a few months.

It would take more effort to build supercaps, which in all honesty it should. From all standpoints, balance and practicality included.

The main problem I see coming with ore compression is Rorquals being built by corps with large assembly arrays on their high sec poses, and people afk mining veld into them. Either Industrial Cores shouldn't be enabled in high sec, or Rorquals should be only manufacturable in =<.4 stations & capital assembly arrays.

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2007.08.16 10:11:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 16/08/2007 10:14:59
Originally by: Maceross
Yes it is a non intended feature, which should be fixed. However, if this happens it needs to be replaced with an official way of doing it rather then eliminating it entirely, it is not something that should be jumped into lightly.



First off it would hit everyone the same at the same time. Yes they would need to...dare I say it...adapt.

Second this was not something CCP was saying they would implement tomorrow. As I read it the plan sounded like it'd be the end of the year. Four months to prepare should be more than sufficient.

Third, the Rorqual would have compression abilities. This would not only make that ship worthwhile in its intended role but also mitigate the impact of this change.

Admus
Bath and Body Works
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2007.08.16 10:26:00 - [13]
 

As far as i can tell they are still going to make changes. I think they made the right choice in delaying it though, because a lot of people didn't like the refining amount reduction - it affects other significant aspects of the game, such as ratters/missioners that refine loot for minerals.

I agree that the ore compression as it is with jump portal generators and the like is ridiculous, and needs a fix.
I agree that battleships might be too easy to get, and making logisitics more difficult in 0.0 could jack up the prices and cause the battleship to become more important again. I think this could be good.

But like I say, the fix to the compression problem they had proposed seemed like a bit of a hack job. It's also hard to explain from an RP perspective - "all of the sudden, people just couldn't refine as well as they could. But only on some items." I think CCP is making the right choice in delaying this and putting extra thought into it.

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2007.08.16 10:37:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Haffrage
The main problem I see coming with ore compression is Rorquals being built by corps with large assembly arrays on their high sec poses, and people afk mining veld into them. Either Industrial Cores shouldn't be enabled in high sec, or Rorquals should be only manufacturable in =<.4 stations & capital assembly arrays.


As much as I would like to be able to use a Rorqual in hi sec I agree completely. The potential for abuse by AFK miners/farmers is too much.

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2007.08.16 10:42:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Admus
As far as i can tell they are still going to make changes. I think they made the right choice in delaying it though, because a lot of people didn't like the refining amount reduction - it affects other significant aspects of the game, such as ratters/missioners that refine loot for minerals.


I agree that pausing a bit for reflection on the changes is worthwhile. That said my initial reading of the blog was this was planned for Rev-3 which is not due for 3-4 months. If they were saying they were doing it tomorrow that would be too fast but are you saying three months is not enough time for the community to make comments, have it tweaked and be prepared for it?

As for ratters/missioners I have old threads advocating that the loot should be nerfed. The short of it is to bring mining a bit more to the forefront by limiting the amount of mins gained from loot refines. That is something I'd be happy to revisit but should probably be done in another thread rather than derailing this one.

Shevar
Minmatar
Target Practice incorporated
Posted - 2007.08.16 10:49:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
So it gets more expensive. First of all it hits everyone the same. Second I see these endless blob wars with a somehow seemingly limitless supply of ships. Perhaps if they were somewhat more valuable there would be more motivation to pick and choose your fights (adding more strategy is a good thing).


You mean it will be more blob based? If you are more scared of loosing their ships then they will only attack if they got even bigger numbers.

Quote:

I do not think the warning was too short. The blog originally (they changed it) made it sound like it was due at the end of the year. As for investing a huge amount into prints well...out the money today or tomorrow. Either way it is nerfed and certainly many lose money like this when the game needs balance (how many bought up the new Mining Laser Upgrades for huge amounts of money only to find they did not work and when CCP fixes it to work they will nerf it? [rightly so]).


Tell me what are your experiences in .0? Have you ever did any logistics?

Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
Posted - 2007.08.16 10:50:00 - [17]
 

Supporting the OP in this. Life in 0.0 is supposed to be tough and dangerous, in other words a challenge. The field of logistics should be one that requires the same sort of talent and organization from players that fleet battles and smaller generally do. Let the truly skilled industrialists be capable of showing their worth out in 0.0 as well as the pvp types.
Yes there will be knock on effects, there always is when these changes come in but people WILL adapt to it and those with the brains will get by just fine.

Since when was 0.0 supposed to be easy?

Terraform
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.08.16 10:54:00 - [18]
 

I agree that moving mins. from and to 0.0 should be made harder, even harder than it is now. People using carriers and simply cyno'ing the mins. from place to place is also a problem, since it kills the profession of hauling. I agree that hauling isn't exactly the most skill-intensive profession, but seriously, it's definitely the most boring one, either you get ganked on the way... or the trip is simply jsut long, slow and boring.

Something has to be done, not sure if the whole compressing idea is the right solution tho...

Raem Civrie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.08.16 11:05:00 - [19]
 

Module ore compression is ****ty.

Capital ore compression is cool.

The whole point is that ideally, there would exist regions in EVE virtually independent from Empire save for non-constructible consumables (POS parts, skillbooks, outpost construction parts and new BP's). But for viable frontier mining, we need something like the proposed Rorqual. Also, your math is off. The 430:1 ratio is only on a titan module, which happens to be 1000m3.

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2007.08.16 11:06:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Shevar
You mean it will be more blob based? If you are more scared of loosing their ships then they will only attack if they got even bigger numbers.


Actually I think it will decrease the blob if anything. People already want to group into the biggest pile they can manage. I do not see how this increases it.

If ships are more valuable by being more expensive/harder to build you adapt. Losing your dread blob in one go if they were very hard to replace would be hugely damaging. I remember a time when we would get war decced the best option was to dock the battleships and haul out piles of blaster equipped Thoraxes. On a bang/ISK analysis they were actually best for the job. They could be dangerous and not horrible if you lost one.

Also, if part of the game becomes interdicting supply lines then you get all sorts of options for smaller scale battles. Instead of your massive blob you have it split up all over in small groups going after targets of opportunity (although Jump Birdges bork that to some extent).

Quote:
Tell me what are your experiences in .0? Have you ever did any logistics?


Oh lord yes. I have been in EVE 4 years and lived in 0.0 for a good while (indeed it burned me out and I gave EVE a break for a year). This is back when a Mk-V was the shizznit of haulers. There were no POS. Mining ops for a good spot of Ark meant a hauler run of 16J back to the nearest station. Often enemies would harass those runs. With no POS out there everything had to be moved up.

As a Director of my corp and the super carebear I was the guy generally zooming around 0.0 in a Mk-V. PvPers talk about getting the blood pumping in battle. Want to really get your blood pumping? Move millions of your corp assets they are counting on in a paper thin hauler with reports of enemy interceptors behind you and in front of you.

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2007.08.16 11:10:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 16/08/2007 11:18:29
Originally by: Raem Civrie
Also, your math is off. The 430:1 ratio is only on a titan module, which happens to be 1000m3.


Perhaps my language was not precise enough. I did not mean to suggest everything gave a 430:1 ratio. Just that such a ratio was achievable.

Although if your goal is ore compression why use anything else (unless you cannot build that item)?

EDIT: Maybe you mean the math is off for a frigate carrying two freighters worth of goods? Well, check my link in the OP and go to page #10 where a CCP Dev says the following:

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
the ability to move two freighters worth of minerals in a frigate is broke and something we want to fix


until then you're not helping with these exaggerations


Its not an exaggeration, but neither will I state how its possible.


Take up poor math with them I guess.

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2007.08.16 11:13:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Wild Rho
Supporting the OP in this. Life in 0.0 is supposed to be tough and dangerous, in other words a challenge. The field of logistics should be one that requires the same sort of talent and organization from players that fleet battles and smaller generally do. Let the truly skilled industrialists be capable of showing their worth out in 0.0 as well as the pvp types.
Yes there will be knock on effects, there always is when these changes come in but people WILL adapt to it and those with the brains will get by just fine.

Since when was 0.0 supposed to be easy?


Bah....I write a wall of text and you say it better in five lines.

Ah well...

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2007.08.16 11:32:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 16/08/2007 11:37:19
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Haffrage
The main problem I see coming with ore compression is Rorquals being built by corps with large assembly arrays on their high sec poses, and people afk mining veld into them. Either Industrial Cores shouldn't be enabled in high sec, or Rorquals should be only manufacturable in =<.4 stations & capital assembly arrays.


As much as I would like to be able to use a Rorqual in hi sec I agree completely. The potential for abuse by AFK miners/farmers is too much.



It is a jump capable ship, so it can be used only in low sec/0.0.


As I said before, even if I am a mission runner with perfect refining, a 100% refining rate, where you recover all the minerals you put in an item, is absurd.

I am in favor of a variable level of inefficency, from 1% or so for the less compressed modules to the proiposed 20% for the modules with high compression, even if that will cut again the mission runners income.

It don't even need to have a % of minerlas lost, simply the mineras recovered from recycling items shoud be less that what you need to put in with perfect manufacturing and ME.

A good solution to the compression problem can be to implement a BPO for ingots of the different minerals, with the compression CCP feel is acceptable.
The ingots then can be used directly in production (it will mirror how most of the minerals are moved in RL).

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2007.08.16 11:35:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Haffrage
The main problem I see coming with ore compression is Rorquals being built by corps with large assembly arrays on their high sec poses, and people afk mining veld into them. Either Industrial Cores shouldn't be enabled in high sec, or Rorquals should be only manufacturable in =<.4 stations & capital assembly arrays.


As much as I would like to be able to use a Rorqual in hi sec I agree completely. The potential for abuse by AFK miners/farmers is too much.



It is a jump capable ship, so it can be used only in low sec/0.0.


I *think* (could certainly be wrong but how I read it) that he was saying they could be built in hi sec. Like Chribba's Veldanaught it couldn't go anywhere but could live in the system it was built and do its thing.

I may have misunderstood what he was saying though.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2007.08.16 11:41:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 16/08/2007 11:41:14
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Haffrage
The main problem I see coming with ore compression is Rorquals being built by corps with large assembly arrays on their high sec poses, and people afk mining veld into them. Either Industrial Cores shouldn't be enabled in high sec, or Rorquals should be only manufacturable in =<.4 stations & capital assembly arrays.


As much as I would like to be able to use a Rorqual in hi sec I agree completely. The potential for abuse by AFK miners/farmers is too much.


It is a jump capable ship, so it can be used only in low sec/0.0.


I *think* (could certainly be wrong but how I read it) that he was saying they could be built in hi sec. Like Chribba's Veldanaught it couldn't go anywhere but could live in the system it was built and do its thing.

I may have misunderstood what he was saying though.


True, as it is still possible to build other capitals in high sec. But if you use them firing the weapons, even in self defence and you are reported to a GM you will get warned and the ship moved to low sec.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2007.08.16 11:44:00 - [26]
 

Yes, what EvE needs more of is boring timesinks.

Galmar Grief
Caldari
New Eden Research Organisation
Posted - 2007.08.16 11:44:00 - [27]
 

@The OP

Excellent post, as much as I hate this massive dramatic change happening so suddenly, the whole frigate moving as much as two freighters is truely messed up.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2007.08.16 11:48:00 - [28]
 

After some thoughts I agree that any change in such fundamental mechanics like mineral hauling needs to be long announced so that everyone can begin to switch to new supply structures and start testing some new ideas. A announcement in a sidenote 2 weeks before the change is not at all long enough. 2 months would be necessary at least!

Besides that, mineral compression with such high rates as 430:1 is really bad. It completely unbalances the whole system. Mineral logistics becomes a joke and becomes invulnerable. Moving stuff in a carrier/mom that would need tens of freighters otherwise is just ridiculous. The risk/reward balance is far off-scale here!

There are plenty solutions out here. One for example is to nerf the high compression modules. Make them larger! Then, as next step, adjust the medium compression modules so that they need more high end minerals.

People complain that Eve is too much work. But hey, no one forces some alliances to loose massive amount of ships in their strategy. No one forces alliances to conquer more and more regions. No one forces supercapital builders to pump out supercap after superacp. It is THEIR choice. And if they don't like to do it, they should stop it.

Furthermore if people would include the fair costs of logistics in their plans then they soon would realize that some things are quite expensive and not at all profitable. But they assume that logistics are cheap or even free and when they realize that logistics aren't free and actual work they complain and whine. Bah!

What comes next? A whine that a titan is difficult to build and that it needs nerfed as well? That a battleship needs too many minerals also? If you cannot afford to lose it, don't fly it.

And especially minerals, people complain that trit is too cheap (in 0.0) and that it is not worth mining. But do they set up buy orders with a higher price? No! So, CCP decides that trit in 0.0 becomes a little bit - only 20% - more expensive (via the reprocessing nerf) and they yell up as if the world would end.

Pathetic!

Go, pay fair prices and all your problems are solved!

Elmicker
Wreckless Abandon
Posted - 2007.08.16 12:03:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Galmar Grief
Excellent post, as much as I hate this massive dramatic change happening so suddenly, the whole frigate moving as much as two freighters is truely messed up.


This is also a problem that comes about from a failing in another game mechanic, that would still be present after the nerf. Frigates would still be able to move that amount of minerals, just with slightly lower efficiency.

Big Al
The Aftermath
Posted - 2007.08.16 12:09:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Big Al on 16/08/2007 12:17:53
0.0 is far too easy to live in, far too easy to run logistics.

<Start official carebear line>
If they wanted to change it, it should have been changed immediately after people starting doing it (that's why we put up with devs as players right? So they know what's going on in the game)

Changing it after 'certain' alliances already have numerous supercaps in place introduces an artificial power imbalance. Now, you may not think that's much of a big deal, but take a look at the alliance tournament... offering crap all for prizes to prevent such an imbalance!

The nerf will probably go ahead anyway eventually, but giving people who have billions invested 1-2 weeks to prepare isn't really fair. It doesn't really fit in well with the game either 'all of a sudden all of our refining facilities blow up... after rebuilding them all stuff with a 5:1 compression ratio or better loses 20% on refining'
<End official carebear line>

I only care personally because I've got several JPGs in the ME oven that don't come out til the end of the month, nerf away once I can lay these suckers off on some sucker.

I think that a lot of people who post here seem to think that if you buy a JPG off the market it will magically be a 0 loss UBER ORE COMPRESSION MACHINE. It takes a CRAPLOAD of time to research it to ME25.



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