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Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.08.11 16:05:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Archbishop on 12/08/2007 01:05:13


I've noticed some discussion about alt-spies recently on a couple forums and wanted to talk a little bit about the topic. This isn't directed to anyone in particular in fact it'll fall in the middle of two sides I see on the issue. To start I'll answer a couple questions that lay down where I am.

1. Are spies always bad? No.

2. Is there the possibililty of OOC emotions coming into play? Yes.

I look at corp spies through different glasses. I've never been a corp spy but I do see the need for them in some aspects of the game. The true conundrum though is to do it in such a manner that friendship is preserved and discovery is possible.

There is something nice about alts. I've been an MC mercenary before and I tried being a pirate once last year (lasted about a week but didn't have it in me) and have mostly used my alt accounts for RP stuff.

I kind of look at corp spies this way. I was torn by the famous GHSC operation against UQS (the big 30b isk theft operation) because while I didn't like the "OOC emotional result" of the operation I admired the planning and development that went into it. Likewise because this was perpetrated by a "main character" and not a disposable alt I found it acceptable. My opposition to it was mostly on the OOC level but IC it was totally acceptable and thats where I drew my line in the sand.

With alt spies I'll come right out and say they're not always bad depending how they're used. First I do like the way GHSC used main characters and view that as acceptable IC actions. If someone creates an alt, infiltrates a corp then deletes them when it's done I guess thats where I'll say "I don't like it". Sure the game mechanics allow it but it doesn't make it right in my view (and that's just my opinion). Now one thing I will not do (that I used to) is try and put OOC "emotions" onto that action. If people want to do that it's acceptable for them to have that opportunity but I will not.

This brings in the possibility though of some possibilities for real "espionage" in Eve. Perhaps what is needed is a "spy career" track like builder, mission runner, pvp pilot, pirate, etc. Imagine this scenario for a moment.

- You create a character and give him "Espinoge skill". What this does is puts him in a noob corp like the CIA or something that focuses on Espionage. There are then specific "skills" they could train that would aid in their "career".

Skill #S1: Hangar Infiltration
This skill allows a person to see inside the hangars of the other corp members (without the security officer setting). Increased skills allow more visibility and Level V would allow you to see inside of all player hangars at all stations the corp has an office at in the region. An additional benefit would be the ability to see inside "hidden" corp hangars.

Skill #S2: Wallet Infiltration
This skill allows a person to view the log of all corporate transactions. It also allows them to view individual wallet transactions of targeted members.

Skill #S3: Chat Infiltration
Bad Idea - Withdrawn

Skill #S4: Evemail Infiltration
Bad Idea - Withdrawn


Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.08.11 16:06:00 - [2]
 


Skill #S5: Sabotage
This skill allows a person to "damage" a ship or module in a way that is undetectable until it's used in combat. Imagine clicking on a gun and having it "blow up" causing your ship damage at the same time or being able to cause a missile to explode in a ships hold.

Skill #S6: False Background
This skill allows a person to "change" their background employment history (falsify it) and change dates.

Skill #S7: Master of Disguise
This skill is the "holy grail" because it would allow a spy to change his "identity" meaning his name and face could change for a designated period of time. Say a L1 would be a week and L5 would be three months.

Now as spies have all these uberskills there would be a new "Intelligence Officer" track as well so corporations could have the opportunity to "discover" and arrest these spies.

Skill #I1: Hangar Surveilance
This skill would allow the player the opportunity to see who is "sneaking around" looking in other peoples hangars. Some people have a reason to do this while some do not. If you have a new player suddenly viewing hangar contents they don't even have access to you'll know they could be a spy.

Skill #I2: Wallet Surveilance
This skill like the one above would give the player the opportunity to see who is looking at corp finances and player wallets.

Skill #I3: Confidential Communications
This skill would allow a person the chance to "see" a hidden player in a corp chat.

Skill #I4: Intercepted Mail Discovery
This skill would tell a person if corporate mail has been "intercepted". For example in RL if you steam an envelope open then reseal it you may be able to hide it or you may be discovered.

Skill #I5: Sabotage Defense
This skill would allow a person to do an "inventory" of a ship or module and be able to tell if it has been tampered with. Imagine going to a battle and having your ship checked first by the IO and having him say "this gun has been sabotaged". It could turn the tide of battle.

Skill #I6: Background Check
This skill would allow a person to pick through a persons background and compare it with "official records" to see if there are any discrepencies.

Skill #I7: Spy Reveal
This skill would allow a person to "unmask" a spy. The real benefit of this would be the skill would allow the player to see the other characters on that account as well as other characters on ANY account of that player that are in corps you are at war with thus there is real "risk" to being discovered and real benefit to discovering the identity of a spy.

Now these skills would work in conjunction with each other. Thus the "Spy Reveal" skill would only work if the "target" was using the "Master of Disguise" skill. That way if a player isn't a spy it wouldn't tell them who the alts are (which is nice). But if a player is a spy and his hiding his identity there is real danger and consequence.

Another thing that would need to change is unless a player has the SPY SKILL on a character they could not join a corporation that any of their other characters (on any account) are at war with. That means you can't just "alt-spy" you have to commit to being a spy and likewise live the life. This also means alt disposable spies would be a thing of the past and the spy career would be a real possibility for players. Imagine this career track becoming a legendary spy and hiring yourself out to corporations for profit.


Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.08.11 16:07:00 - [3]
 


Now the benefit of these skills is they allow a player to be a "spy" yet also are not the type of things that could lead to big OOC issues because there is no "trust" involved. I find the issue of trust most often comes up in relation to OOC corp forums and the interactions people have OOC versus IC. Having someone post in an OOC forum about your baby pictures or talking to you about OOC issues is one thing and totally seperate from game stuff. I think that's where people get mad but I think that would be avoidable with a true "spy career" in Eve and a way to capture them.

Archbishop


Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
Posted - 2007.08.11 16:09:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Valandril on 11/08/2007 16:09:59
U don't need mechanics to be efficent at spying, and spying someones pm/chat/evemails i just sick and rubbish, we got enought metagaming already.
/antisigned.

Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.08.11 16:18:00 - [5]
 


Metagaming has nothing to do with these type of skills and the results.

EVE Official FAQ wrote:

6.7 Can I be a corporate spy?

Spying, scheming, double-dealing and espionage are devilishly delicious features of EVE for those who relish walking on the dark side. Corporation leaders are urged to exercise extreme caution when accepting new members, particularly when granting access to their private communications and corporate holdings. There are criminal elements in EVE who can, and will, take advantage of unsuspecting marks.


In fact these measures I've proposed would make it BETTER for corporations because it wouldn't be a totally blind thing but something with a chance of discovery. Right now there is virtually no chance of catching an alt spy who is created then disposed of immediately after he is discovered or a war is over. This way there WOULD BE A CHANCE and that is a better thing isn't it? I think so.

Archbishop

Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
Posted - 2007.08.11 17:21:00 - [6]
 

There is a chance to catch spy, but as u mentioned u don't have great knowledge about spys and stuff (chance is small and require a lot of hard work but is possible).

And ur changes make eve more rubbish, checking somoene wallet ? Convos ? Mails ? I think u forogt that this is a game, where ppl come to chat also, not to worry about someone listening you convos, or checking your wallet, or your emails.

Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.08.11 17:59:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Archbishop on 11/08/2007 18:00:32

I tend to look at it as "what do spies do in real life?". Well they tap phones, sneak into places to get intel, they open mail and reseal it and they change their identity. What do things like searching wallets do? Well imagine an enemy has purchased five Battleships in a particular station. You now know those are there. Imagine two officers plan a battle with evemail and you intercept the plans and plan an ambush. Imagine you need an inventory of corp assets and you discover the enemy corporation has stocked a remote area with ships and materials and has established a secret base. You know this now and can plan for it.

These are all things done in "real life" espinoge and right now are things that can be done with no consequence or discovery with alt-disposable characters.

Yes I am well aware its a game. This would add a new "career" to the game that is already advertised by CCP. Just as we now have "inventor" and "mission runner" and "pirate" we could have "spy". I personally don't care for corp alt spies and my corp doesn't use them but we acknowledge they exist and others do use them. At least this way there is a way of reasonably capturing them while also adding a new dynamic to the game and a new career track.

I think it would add alot more fun to the game AND make corporations alot more secure at the same time because they'd have real tools to use to identify not only the spy (which as you say can kind of be done now) but also the person BEHIND the spy (which is the real prize anyway isn't it?). Right now even if you catch a spy there is no way to know for sure who it is. Imagine if that changed.

Archbishop

Kenji Noguchi
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2007.08.11 20:08:00 - [8]
 

Valandril, how is that you're ALWAYS around to say "this is stupid" to absolutelly everything people proposes? I'm sure if a guy creates a thread right now saying that they like the game as it is right now and nothing should be changed anymore, you would undoutedly take the opportunity to flame a little saying changes and new ideas and proposals are needed.

Well, all I see in this forum is people constantly proposing things, some of them good, some of them not so good but still worth some consideration. However you appear in absolutelly every thread to say no to every new idea and bash everybody around. Man, why don't you just stop browsing this forum so full of bad ideas? Why at least don't you refrain from posting without anything constructive? Do you really NEED to flame everybody around to live?

Eventy
Posted - 2007.08.11 20:44:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Eventy on 11/08/2007 20:55:25
After reading this idea, all I could think is - How do you balance something like this?

I mean how do you balance the ability for someone else to read your EVE mail, or get access to your hanger or whatever?

Even if you could find a way to 'counter the threat' posed by a spy in a balanced way (for the sake of keeping balanced game mechanics, I'm not sure there is a need for spies.

About the whole GHSC operation against UQS,; the issue at the heart of it wasn't "was it wrong because someone's feelings were hurt?". Of course there was OOC emotions as a consequence, but that's not why it was wrong.

The issue was "Does the fact that game mechanics permit it make it right (or not wrong)"?

Killing, I'm sure you would agree, is almost nearly always wrong, but the game mechanics permit virtual killing. So because the game mechanics permit virtual killing it it 'morally' ok to kill in the game?

Well there are player that obviously think so, who spend much of their time in 0.0 doing exactly that. Then again there are players who spend all of their time in empire, who don't think so (carebears).

The question is do real world ethics and morales apply in a virtual world? The GHSC operation against UQS resulted in a virtual theft of billions. And virtual morales or not, that virtual theft resulted in the loss of something that took real time to acquire. The real world morale issues of that virtual action blurred the boundaries. Morale questions crossed into the virtual world and this is why it still reverberates today.

Sure admire the skill it took to plan (911 took skill to plan too), but don't mix up the consequence with the cause.

I'm not sure your idea for CCP to endorse spies in game has been thought through enough, and I certainly don't see balance in this.

Cheers
Eventy

Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
Posted - 2007.08.11 21:13:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Valandril on 11/08/2007 21:15:30
Originally by: Kenji Noguchi
Valandril, how is that you're ALWAYS around to say "this is stupid" to absolutelly everything people proposes? I'm sure if a guy creates a thread right now saying that they like the game as it is right now and nothing should be changed anymore, you would undoutedly take the opportunity to flame a little saying changes and new ideas and proposals are needed.

Well, all I see in this forum is people constantly proposing things, some of them good, some of them not so good but still worth some consideration. However you appear in absolutelly every thread to say no to every new idea and bash everybody around. Man, why don't you just stop browsing this forum so full of bad ideas? Why at least don't you refrain from posting without anything constructive? Do you really NEED to flame everybody around to live?
Someone finaly made whole post on me with his main, thats brave.

First i think ur very selective with what your read if u think i'm "always around to say its stupid" and prolly avoiding to read anything longer.
I write in everytopic ? Damn there must be someone using my account then when i'm not here definitly, or its again that u read only some topics but claim that u read them all. My last posts were this one and i think 2 "search before posting" which is basic rule of using forums, why create new topic with exacly same idea u get on first page of searching ? How hard is that to do ?

Anyway cheer for first person who got balls to post stuff like that with main, not jita alt, but do deeper research next time.

And to OP, u still didnt respond to my privacy question, someone readin your evemails, convos. I understand, IRL its because of that its real threatend and its done by proffesional companys, it usualy don't finish public over the web.
Here it will.
U won't chat with ur friends on eve about rl stuff anymore, u will start moving more and more to ims and alttabbing like mad man. Evemails will be out of use, everyone will be moved to forums with restricted access etc etc.

Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.08.11 21:40:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Archbishop on 11/08/2007 21:51:18

Quote:
And to OP, u still didnt respond to my privacy question, someone readin your evemails, convos. I understand, IRL its because of that its real threatend and its done by proffesional companys, it usualy don't finish public over the web.
Here it will.
U won't chat with ur friends on eve about rl stuff anymore, u will start moving more and more to ims and alttabbing like mad man. Evemails will be out of use, everyone will be moved to forums with restricted access etc etc.


Actually I see real improvement in "privacy" with something like this. First the "evemail surveilance" I understand your concern and I even agree with it to a point. Lets say we dump that one idea the rest of them are pretty good (even the PM chat could be dumped as that could be private). I'd go for that.

I'm looking for a way to balance what we have now (which is alt-delete spies and anything goes) with a way to actually catch them in the act. Sure there are ways now to catch a spy but the reality is it's more OOG detective work then anything else and OOG isn't IC. I'd like to see a way individuals as characters can have the opportunity to not only "bust a spy" but also find out who is behind the spy.

My thinking on this is some corporations (like my own) have countless enemies and probably countless spies sitting in our corp chat watching our every move. Lets say you catch a spy somehow using the current methods (spy makes a mistake, process of elimination, false info, whatever). That spy is deleted and thats it. How do you know WHO is behind it? You have suspicions sure but no facts to go on.

Imagine instead you catch this alt spy and you discover WHO the person behind the spy is. That is who the other characters on the account are and thus you have a valid war target as a possibility. Now instead of seeing some busted alt spy in Doomheim corp you find the real perpetrator. This would have limits like I said in that you could only use this skill if the character you are investigating has a main character in a corp you are at war with that way you still have your privacy if you're not a spy.

So I can dump the evemail and PM chat surveilance. What about the rest of it? Right now we have NOTHING really to use to capture spies and even less than nothing to actually find out who is behind them. I think adding this process would create more of a safety net for corporations and actually make things BETTER because the spy has the chance of being caught and you have the chance of finding out who is behind him. I think thats a great improvement over what we have now which as far as IG mechanics go is basically nothing.

Archbishop


Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.08.11 21:49:00 - [12]
 


Quote:
I mean how do you balance the ability for someone else to read your EVE mail, or get access to your hanger or whatever?


I'm willing to dump the evemail and chat idea because there are some RL privacy issues there. The reality is right now in corp chats people talk about personal stuff all the time so the alt spies who are hanging around already know everything about everyone. Likewise if they have forum access they already have seen your baby pictures and the pictures of your wife and know about your vacation last year and everything else people post about. The reality is there is no privacy in Eve when you're in a corp for the most part because you eventually get to know everyone and become friends.

Access to a hangar isn't what it sounds. You can SEE inside the hangar but not take anything. I'm not advocating the ability for players to reach in and take stuff from peoples hangars but the ability to look at them is already a right we have (security officer right) so it isn't a secret.

Quote:
The issue was "Does the fact that game mechanics permit it make it right (or not wrong)"?


I'm no fan of alt spies, we don't use them and those we play with generally don't use them. Some do use them and thats their right as we each choose our own gameplay style. Game mechanics permit alot of things I don't view as "right" yet they happen anyway. Exploits that are overlooked and griefers finding ways to gank new players in 1.0 space (has happend) indicate that there is a portion of the Eve population who play with no morality (exploiting, cheating and griefing are immoral imo).

But I'm also a realist. I know people use alt spies. I want a way to catch them. Look at what I propose (taking out the evemail and chat thing) and tell me if there is really anything in that list that is "new" or gives a corp spy more ability?

S1 - Hangar Infiltration:
We already have this. People with the security officer role can see into players hangars. Likewise officers granted the rights can see corp hangars. This is nothing new.

S2 - Wallet Infiltration:
This could be something new because it could be a way to see who is funding an enemy. Is there an industrial alt-corp out there secretly funding terrorists or loyalists? Still people with corp wallet access can already see corp wallets and corps can ask to see wallet transaction logs with the API deal so there is nothing really new here.

S3 & S4 - Evemail and Chat: Bad ideas forget I mentioned them (I can take constructive criticism).

S5 - Sabotage:
This is the only real "new" skill in the mix and honestly it sounds kind of fun if you ask me. I think sabotage like this would be more interesting then corp thefts and some of the ways we've seen corps sabotaged in the past.

S6 & S7 - False Background and Master of Disguise:
In reality we already have these.... they're called disposable alts. You can create a character, even create a ficticious background corp for it for a few months, not waste any skills on it, then join a corp, spy and delete it when you're done. This is nothing new.

As you see we already have the majority of these things already. What the spy career track would do is open it up as a profession.

The big benefit though is for those who are being spied on. Now there is an IG way to discover spies (the Intelligence Officer skills). Now you can discover who is behind the spy which is in fact the real "reward" to busting a spy. Right now you bust an alt spy and he goes POOF to Doomheim and he's gone. But using my ideas you bust a spy and if you're skills are high enough and you're lucky (it would be random chance not 100% at all) you might discover who is behind the spy.

Wouldn't that change everything?

Thats why I think this would be an improvment over what we have now which is you have to admit really no way to bust spies.

Archbishop

Miusho
Silver Snake Enterprise
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2007.08.11 23:41:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Miusho on 11/08/2007 23:48:41
I don't like these ideas at all. Especially the 'big' players shouldn't, a lot of people would be hacking alliance leaders, there would be no privacy or secrets at all.

Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.08.12 01:04:00 - [14]
 

Quote:
I don't like these ideas at all. Especially the 'big' players shouldn't, a lot of people would be hacking alliance leaders, there would be no privacy or secrets at all.


It doesn't look like you read my post at all so I'll clarify an important fact you must've missed.

These skills would only work on a corp you're at war with.

Thus you can't just "hack people". I actually dumped the chat and PM idea from above as well so it's even less that.

This means you'd have to be at war to use these skills and likewise be at war to find anything out. What is the alternative? Well it's what we have now with disposable alts and totally anonymous spying with no consequences.

I honestly can't believe the negativity to the concept here. I can understand the evemail and chat deal (and in retrospect I agree with it) but what I can't understand is how people could consider this a "loss" of privacy when it is in fact just the opposite.

- Now you have no real way of knowing who an alt spy is unless they screw up.

- Now an alt spy can sit in your corp for an entire war feeding information back and spying on your forums and corp chat.

- Now you have no way of knowing who the alt spy is even if you happen to identify him because he'll just delete his character and do it again.

Contrast that with the alternatives I propose.

- There will be an actual way to discover who spies are in your corp during a war that doesn't rely in suspicion and assumption.

- There will be a way to "bust" the spy BEFORE he can sit in your chat for months and feed information back.

- There will be a requirement that a spy is well trained and professional thus a character the player is invested in thus there won't be a readiness to just delete the character when he's done.

- There will be a way to identify WHO is behind the spy. No more deleting the alt and disappearing. Now there will be a way to really uncover the spy and who it really is.

Honestly these are all almost "carebear" type ideas that allow corps to defend themselves. Right now we have alt-delete-spies who have no real skills invested and the players behind them who remain secret even if the spy character is discovered. With what I propose thats no longer an option and this BENEFITS corporations and makes them MORE secure not less.

As a caveat I'd add that one "condition" of these new skills would be the inability for someone to have a character in a corp they have another character at war with UNLESS they have all these skills. This would force people to either spy for real or knock it off.

I just don't understand how giving people a chance to actually "bust the spy" and protect the corp is a bad thing.

Archbishop

Grr
Amarr
Imperial Retirement Home
Posted - 2007.08.12 01:50:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Grr on 12/08/2007 01:50:18
Originally by: Archbishop
Quote:

I just don't understand how giving people a chance to actually "bust the spy" and protect the corp is a bad thing.



Because most of those people are part of large alliances and probably are spies, didn't actually read the OP and just leapt to the me being discovered equals bad conclusion.

Your ideas are great for smaller entities like ourselves. Spying should be part of good RP and there should be ingame mechanics to support it.


Slagg Dai
Posted - 2007.12.13 13:14:00 - [16]
 

I think it's a damn good idea it would give us a good way to RP spies without having to find ways to leave hints and risk exposing ourselves.

McFly
Peanut Factory
Posted - 2007.12.13 14:49:00 - [17]
 

I disagree with the idea, mainly because it requires corps to be at war and 90% of the time that spy alts are used heavily is to infiltrate large alliance who don't declare war on each other because it's 0.0 and well we can kinda fight whenever we see each other. Anyway I do think that the Intel Officer skills would be nice but they have to have some sort of way to shut down the use of disposable spy alts before any of this could be used.

Why dedicate a character to spying when you can just join an alliance through a week corp and say you're a pvper, want to get in on an op and now you've got TS/Vent access, forum access and intel channels and etc.

I don't have any spy alts in any corp, not because I have any ethical reasoning, but because I don't have the time or will to be a spy. Especially since I got plenty of alts of my own that need to be taken care of let alone making sure I remember that the spy alt is supposed to do something at a specific time or deadline.

So yes you have a good idea, but no I don't support it, you obviously put in a lot of thought on how to make it work but I don't think it would actually cancel out what we have around us today. Also in the instance of the big 30Bil heist the people that did that were able to infiltrate with their mains, good on them, but the reason that happened was because they got a guy into being a director for the corp.

Dont grant anyone stay in your corp unless they are actually helping the corp a lot, not by isk but by hours of operations, whether it be fleet battles, mining ops or whatever if they are just showing up with isk for the corp and you've never seen em undocked and come to think of it the only thing you remember them flying was a T1 cruiser 6 months ago....yah they need the boot whether they are a spy or not.

Washell Olivaw
Posted - 2007.12.13 14:54:00 - [18]
 

If this is implemented people have a choice between:

An undetectable alt who doesn't need any skills trained vs a professional spy who could be busted any second even after a lot of training.

I could see your spy profession work if it could be used against corps your spy is not a member of, but I can't see it replacing the existing spies.

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2007.12.13 14:59:00 - [19]
 

I like the ability to gather information, to hide your employement history.
You don't need more to be a perfect spy.

I think sabotage is too far and leads to much griefing.

I agree that chat and evemail spying is a bad thing, I don't want people to know when and where is the next time I'll meet my corpmates for diner! There are real life privacy issues, this will not happen, it is just against all CCP's policies.

Just knowing what is being built in a POS, what is being mined in a POS, what is in their hangars and such things is already a huge security breach that leads to the right POS sieges. It's warfare to a new level.

But I think it should still need some player skill, you would need to already have roles in the corp to be able to see more. when you are discovered, all roles are taken away, then you can no more spy.
For example, you have view access to hangar one, it gives you view access to hanger 2 with your spy skills.
You get some POS rights, then you gain the ability to see more of the POS status.

Or it will just be too easy.

Rjaiajik Kajvoril
Amarr
Cloak and Daggers
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.13 20:32:00 - [20]
 

I quite like this idea. I'm not sure exactly how you could pull it off because CCP would have 'privacy' issues if you started hacking into the private chat systems however I like the basic idea. It would provide yet a new level of warfare.

Imagine the spy who gets into the enemies system and sabotages all of the Dreadnoughts weapons after he hacked into the corp channel and heard they where planning to attack his corps POS.

Now imagine the attack takes place. 1 Dred, 5 Battleships, 10 Cruisers and 14 Frigates all show up to destroy the POS. The defenders only have 7 Battleships, 1 Command Ship, 3 Cruisers and 3 Destroyers. This could be decided from the start.....

....The dread targets the POS... fires... BOOM! The Dread explodes in a flash of light. It's weapons all discharge inside the barrel and the dred takes the damage from his own guns. Reduced to just structure the 7 battleships take there aim and bring him down quickly. There are losses on both sides and the defenders have not exactly won by the end of the fight. But hell, the POS is still standing, and they destroyed an enemy dred today.

I LOVE THIS! I'm writing this up as a fiction now, maybe see if I can submit it for publication in E-ON.

Shira d'Radonis
Amarr
The Amarr Mission
Posted - 2007.12.13 21:47:00 - [21]
 


The problem is that it seems as though this would really only be useful for people who are concerned with etiquette such as RPers. For the rest, alt-spies will still be superior, and since RPers are far fewer in number than other players, I don't see the developers going to the trouble to implement this.

I will agree however that there needs to be a change to the current system. The main issue I see is information and access to it. The game works in absolutes. Either we know everything about something or we can know absolutely nothing about it.

We enter a system, and we know exactly who is in that system through Local channel. We see a ship, we know exactly who they are. We can't be attacked and/or destroyed by unknown assailants. We have an exact list of precisely when a person joined or left a particular corp, and with that we also know the exact day that person was "born".

But at the same time, there's stuff we can't know. We can't know with any accuracy who a person communicates with (unless they tell us of course). If this were a game where we could only communicate with people by being in the same room with them, it would be fairly easy to just follow a player, and if they're a member of Ushra'Khan and they walk into Lucky Archie's Slave Emporium, chances are he's not on the up and up... however such is not the case in EVE. We have instant, interstellar communications.

People object to the reading of chatlogs by a third party... however, what about a log in corp tools that shows all of the people a pilot has contacted (actually the list of channels they've entered). So rather than being like a phone tap, it would be more like phone records. It would show that a call was made without revealing the content of the conversation. So this would give security officers within a corp the ability to investigate whether a pilot is contacting the enemy.

That way you can keep your cyber sex a secret, but your corp can still see if you're potentially a threat.

So there should be more gray on the availability of information in EVE I think... some that cloud current information (like maybe with employer history), but would open up previously closed information (like channel visitation).

But truthfully, I think the best method for RPers is going to be basically a gentleman's agreement. Since alt-spies are really the only means of spying, we should put restrictions on alt-spies that we will simply have to honor.

Rjaiajik Kajvoril
Amarr
Cloak and Daggers
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.13 22:11:00 - [22]
 

See, unfortunately I am an RPer and I thoroughly enjoy roleplay, I would personally love to see this on EVE.

Personally I would be quite happy for alt accounts to be against the rules. I think it's nothing more than paying more money to get an advantage, it's barely above buying ISK from eBay. The problem you then have is when we have a household like ours. 3 people living in a house, all who play EVE, then an additional 4 people with laptops who often come to our house to nab our internet to play EVE or have LAN parties. How could we prove that we're actually all different people and it's not me running 7 accounts.

Shira d'Radonis
Amarr
The Amarr Mission
Posted - 2007.12.14 03:07:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Rjaiajik Kajvoril
See, unfortunately I am an RPer and I thoroughly enjoy roleplay, I would personally love to see this on EVE.

Personally I would be quite happy for alt accounts to be against the rules. I think it's nothing more than paying more money to get an advantage, it's barely above buying ISK from eBay. The problem you then have is when we have a household like ours. 3 people living in a house, all who play EVE, then an additional 4 people with laptops who often come to our house to nab our internet to play EVE or have LAN parties. How could we prove that we're actually all different people and it's not me running 7 accounts.



To be honest, I don't really care if it's you running seven accounts. As long as you roleplay as seven interesting unique characters, I don't really care.

Rjaiajik Kajvoril
Amarr
Cloak and Daggers
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.14 06:47:00 - [24]
 

Not a bad point I suppose. However people who don't roleplay on EVE metagame beyond belief when allowed to have multiple accounts and it does put off a few more hardcore roleplayers from joining EVE.


 

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