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Andral
Posted - 2007.08.09 10:24:00 - [1]
 

Hi,

I notice that NOS is getting a makeover with Revelations 2.2:
http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=489

I've also heard that the Curse is one of the best pvp ships out there. I was wondering how this will change given the changes to be implemented with NOS? Will it be seriously reduced in power as a result? I notice most setups for it make use of NOS rather than energy neutralizers.

If this has already been discussed, I'd appreciate a link to the thread!

Thanks

Morto MacLeod
Amarr
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2007.08.09 11:22:00 - [2]
 

Quote:
I've also heard that the Curse is one of the best pvp ships out there. I was wondering how this will change given the changes to be implemented with NOS? Will it be seriously reduced in power as a result? I notice most setups for it make use of NOS rather than energy neutralizers.

imho:
Curse will be the worst recon ship in game. it won't be absolutely bad ship, it'll be good in gangs with cap booster and neutralizers, but it will sure be the worst ship in it's class. And Pilgrim will die. as i said, it is only my opinion

Murehz
Posted - 2007.08.09 14:23:00 - [3]
 

I don't think it will be the worst in its class. Even though it wont have the OMGWTFBBQPWNED solo NOSing power it had before that isn't to hard to get around with a bit of careful management, it will just mean it actually requires a bit of skill to fly.

No one ever really uses it in decent sized gangs anyways but if they do then its still got the tracking disruptor bonus or you can just do what everyone else does and fit a few damps.

Tamoko
Damage Unlimited Inc
Posted - 2007.08.09 14:25:00 - [4]
 

To those who think it'll suck: Give me a frigin break. Replace one nos with a neut and fly it exactly the same way and you've still got a golden solo pwn mobile.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.08.09 14:37:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 09/08/2007 14:38:32
Originally by: Murehz
No one ever really uses it in decent sized gangs anyways but if they do then its still got the tracking disruptor bonus or you can just do what everyone else does and fit a few damps.


Yes. And compared to the gallente ones which have a damp efficiency and EW range bonus, the minmatar ones which can use damp just as well as the curse and have the web bonus and caldari ones which can disable far more targets this makes it what... if not "the worst in its class" then what?

Like Morto MacLeod, not saying that it will be useless, but every other recon will be better in comparsion.

Murehz
Posted - 2007.08.09 14:45:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
Edited by: Aramendel on 09/08/2007 14:38:32
Originally by: Murehz
No one ever really uses it in decent sized gangs anyways but if they do then its still got the tracking disruptor bonus or you can just do what everyone else does and fit a few damps.


Yes. And compared to the gallente ones which have a damp efficiency and EW range bonus, the minmatar ones which can use damp just as well as the curse and have the web bonus and caldari ones which can disable far more targets this makes it what... if not "the worst in its class" then what?

Like Morto MacLeod, not saying that it will be useless, but every other recon will be better in comparsion.


How can you be worst in the class when you are arguably better at solo PvP than every other ship in that class. Not all ships are meant to be gang ships, thats why you rarely see them in gangs as it is. So far though no-one has called them worst in the class because of it.

jilahed
Posted - 2007.08.09 14:45:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Tamoko
To those who think it'll suck: Give me a frigin break. Replace one nos with a neut and fly it exactly the same way and you've still got a golden solo pwn mobile.


You have obviously never flown this ship, so why are you talking out of your ass? I have always fitted neuts on my curse two of em to be exact and it doesn't change anything. I have been on SiSi testing the changes. I know what this ship could do and what it can do now. So please if you have no clue stop telling people how their ships work.

It is exactly as the one poster said. Curse in gangs with inject is okay but solo it loses a lot (really a LOT) of potential. Pilgrim is DEAD. And before the smartass returns I ALWAYS FIT A NEUT ON MY PILGRIM so stfu.

Furthermore it has always been the way that a huginn, arazu or even a rook is much more desirable for a gang to have than a curse. This is even worse now.

However i think the nos nerf will change todays battlefield heavily and other amarr ships might gain a small boost this way. Also i am training missiles skills asap for my revamped sac. So this is not whining before anyone starts. I am going to adapt either way. Its just i can't stand these people who didn't even ever fight in a pilgrim/curse and want to tell me *nothing* changed. thats just a big lol.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.08.09 14:47:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 09/08/2007 14:53:46
Originally by: Murehz
How can you be worst in the class when you are arguably better at solo PvP than every other ship in that class. Not all ships are meant to be gang ships, thats why you rarely see them in gangs as it is. So far though no-one has called them worst in the class because of it.


Thats the whole point - guess what the change efficiently kills? The solo power of the curse.

And then there are "smart" people who completely ignore that the higher solo performance of the amarr recons was balanced by their worse group performance and then call it balanced like the person below which should have better stayed in her slave pen.

Amy Wang
Posted - 2007.08.09 14:52:00 - [9]
 

Curse and Pilgrim will still be a really nice addition to any recon gang.

They cant solo pwn everything anymore, but so cant the other recons, guess thats balance, huh?

jilahed
Posted - 2007.08.09 14:57:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Murehz

How can you be worst in the class when you are arguably better at solo PvP than every other ship in that class.



You can't really. This is why everyone was absolutely fine with the state of pilgrim/curse as they were(still are on TQ).

Originally by: Murehz

Not all ships are meant to be gang ships, thats why you rarely see them in gangs as it is. So far though no-one has called them worst in the class because of it.


Recons are specifically support vessels. However good curse/pilgrim were in solo combat it would never justify them not being good gang ships. Now with the nerf the solo-ability of curse decreases heavily. That of the pilgrim vanishes. None of them gets any better in gang. ?

And yes post-nerf people will call curse/pilgrim the worst recons. Just wait a bit until people realize theres no need to fear a lone curse anymore. Razz

Gozmoth
Amarr
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2007.08.09 15:02:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Gozmoth on 09/08/2007 15:03:16
Curse was overpowered because of its dampeners ... Nos is not a problem for a lot of ships in Eve. The nos nerf will nerf the curse, but a dampener nerf would be better.

Peanut Swsh
Posted - 2007.08.09 15:07:00 - [12]
 

i always though curse occupied its own little niche in the recon ships, as it was the only recon that can break the tank of a well setup active tank? hence it is always nice to have in a roaming recon gang.

otherwise... other recons are great at tackling... but can't always break the tank of the ship they have tackled.



Kruel
Beyond Divinity Inc
Posted - 2007.08.09 15:25:00 - [13]
 

It's gonna be hard to justify using the nanocurse over nanoishtar now.

I guess I'll see how well 2x nos 1x neut works on the Curse, but if it absolutely requires an injector, I'm gonna be ****ed.

Maeltstome
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.08.09 15:27:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Tamoko
To those who think it'll suck: Give me a frigin break. Replace one nos with a neut and fly it exactly the same way and you've still got a golden solo pwn mobile.


Give that boy a prize - common sense ftw Wink

Maeltstome
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.08.09 15:33:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Kruel
It's gonna be hard to justify using the nanocurse over nanoishtar now.


You mean apart from being able to nos from 30km with a domi scram and not be heavy nos'ed back? Or maybe its because the curse has more mids that you dont like that.

Curse won't be as effective I agree, but it will bring it in line with other recon ships. I was origonally against the nos nerf for the solo reason of the curse being nurfed, but thinking on it, not even a Huginn can kill a triple damp curse (lock range). The only thing that will come close is a lachesis with plenty of damps, but even then a curse drones will still get on the lach and win.... And you know how hard is it for a rook to jam a curse? recon ships have massive sensor strength.

And as i said above, use 1 nuet an the problem solves itself.

Almarez
Setenta Corp
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2007.08.09 15:45:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Morto MacLeod
Quote:
I've also heard that the Curse is one of the best pvp ships out there. I was wondering how this will change given the changes to be implemented with NOS? Will it be seriously reduced in power as a result? I notice most setups for it make use of NOS rather than energy neutralizers.

imho:
Curse will be the worst recon ship in game. it won't be absolutely bad ship, it'll be good in gangs with cap booster and neutralizers, but it will sure be the worst ship in it's class. And Pilgrim will die. as i said, it is only my opinion


I totally agree. Both of these ships need to be revisited with these changes. Either give them some sort of bonus to energy used for neuts or increase their recharge rates so that neuts make sense or something. The problem with these ships is that their primary weapon is the NOS, which is not true for the other recons. Therefore nerfing NOS nerfs the ships.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.08.09 15:47:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 09/08/2007 15:48:04
Originally by: Maeltstome
You mean apart from being able to nos from 30km with a domi scram and not be heavy nos'ed back? Or maybe its because the curse has more mids that you dont like that.


And getting a heavy nos on it is how exactly a problem with the change? A nanoishtar does not work with nos, it works by twice the dps of a nanocurse and a bigger HP buffer.

Quote:
Curse won't be as effective I agree, but it will bring it in line with other recon ships. I was origonally against the nos nerf for the solo reason of the curse being nurfed, but thinking on it, not even a Huginn can kill a triple damp curse (lock range). The only thing that will come close is a lachesis with plenty of damps, but even then a curse drones will still get on the lach and win.... And you know how hard is it for a rook to jam a curse? recon ships have massive sensor strength.


The curses specialisation was 1v1 so OF COURCE it is stronger than the other recons. However it is in exchange worse in group support. Compare what it an do for a group compared what the other recons can do for the group.

If it gets "balanced" vs the other recons so it is equal in 1v1 vs them what balances its worse group performance?

Rialtor
Amarr
Yarrrateers
Posted - 2007.08.09 17:50:00 - [18]
 

I thought at some point people were using a passive shield tanking missle using Curse, or was I mistaken? Even if nos gets nerfed wouldn't that build still be viable?

Murehz
Posted - 2007.08.09 17:56:00 - [19]
 

In all honesty the idea of recons and EW ships in general being gang ships has gone completely down the pan.

Arbi is best solo amarr cruiser, imo celestis is the same for gallente and BB for caldari (although the caracal is level if not better I just love the BB Razz).

Also for each race their recons are some of the best solo ships for thier race.

Anyways, back to the curse.

I still think that a nano curse will be an absolutly fine solo ship. Shove a NOS/neut combi in high slots, standard mid apart from switch out 1 piece of EW/shield tank for a cap booster and keep lows the same. It will require alot more attention as far as cap goes but it will still be fine IMO.

Xequecal
Posted - 2007.08.09 18:05:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Murehz
In all honesty the idea of recons and EW ships in general being gang ships has gone completely down the pan.

Arbi is best solo amarr cruiser, imo celestis is the same for gallente and BB for caldari (although the caracal is level if not better I just love the BB Razz).

Also for each race their recons are some of the best solo ships for thier race.

Anyways, back to the curse.

I still think that a nano curse will be an absolutly fine solo ship. Shove a NOS/neut combi in high slots, standard mid apart from switch out 1 piece of EW/shield tank for a cap booster and keep lows the same. It will require alot more attention as far as cap goes but it will still be fine IMO.


You do realize other people can fit cap boosters too, right? And that the Curse's small cargo hold, reduced further in size by overdrives, cannot possibly outlast anyone elses, right? Anyone with a cap booster can laugh at a Curse postpatch.

Murehz
Posted - 2007.08.09 18:14:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Xequecal
Originally by: Murehz
In all honesty the idea of recons and EW ships in general being gang ships has gone completely down the pan.

Arbi is best solo amarr cruiser, imo celestis is the same for gallente and BB for caldari (although the caracal is level if not better I just love the BB Razz).

Also for each race their recons are some of the best solo ships for thier race.

Anyways, back to the curse.

I still think that a nano curse will be an absolutly fine solo ship. Shove a NOS/neut combi in high slots, standard mid apart from switch out 1 piece of EW/shield tank for a cap booster and keep lows the same. It will require alot more attention as far as cap goes but it will still be fine IMO.


You do realize other people can fit cap boosters too, right? And that the Curse's small cargo hold, reduced further in size by overdrives, cannot possibly outlast anyone elses, right? Anyone with a cap booster can laugh at a Curse postpatch.


Anyone with a cap booster could laugh at alot of curse pre patch as well... your point being.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.08.09 18:17:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Murehz
Anyone with a cap booster could laugh at alot of curse pre patch as well... your point being.


Not really. They could definately tank it while their charges last, but thats about it. Post patch they can outlast it, aka they will have cap boosters left when the curse has run out of them and still permatank it at infinitium.

Postpatch a huginn or lachesis can likely to be more effective than the curse vs a target with a cap injector since they have around 100 more dps.

Murehz
Posted - 2007.08.09 18:21:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Murehz
Anyone with a cap booster could laugh at alot of curse pre patch as well... your point being.


Not really. They could definately tank it while their charges last, but thats about it. Post patch they can outlast it, aka they will have cap boosters left when the curse has run out of them and still permatank it at infinitium.

Postpatch a huginn or lachesis can likely to be more effective than the curse vs a target with a cap injector since they have around 100 more dps.


I present to you the missile curse.

jilahed
Posted - 2007.08.09 18:35:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Murehz

I still think that a nano curse will be an absolutly fine solo ship. Shove a NOS/neut combi in high slots, standard mid apart from switch out 1 piece of EW/shield tank for a cap booster and keep lows the same. It will require alot more attention as far as cap goes but it will still be fine IMO.


Coincidentally you don't fly the ship i would think. So in case you are wrong it doesn't matter anyway for you.

Or are you indeed a curse pilot and tell me you are speaking out of experience? In that case i'd just wait until the patch hits TQ and you go out with your nanocurse and you are wtfbbqed yourself - then you would learn it the hard way.

Now more generally speaking:

Another point people keep forgetting one poster mentioned it though: Before the dampener-fotm curse has never been a real problem. Armor tanked RMR-Curse was as overpowered as a Caracal. Now this nos nerf makes damps/speedtank on curse the only really viable choice. You can't tank as you need your cap for neuts, ewar and range control. So armor tanking is out of the question as it needs even more cap on top of that. How does this fix anything?

Also what people always forget amarr have 2 recons. One is the curse, the other is called pilgrim and was up to date my absolute all-time favourite. Now its not even a shadow of itself. Its destroyed and useless solo as in gang except you gonna kill cruisers which i can very well handle in my arbitrator or maller too. You just can't tank enormous amounts of damage and neut a battleship cap at the same time with only an injector.

I tried it many times with different setups and it just doesn't cut it anymore. Against a well-skilled bs pilot it was *never* easy but now every good bs pilot will just annihilate you and the last word on bc's has not been spoken yet.

Now some guy will show up and tell me that a recon was never supposed to solo bs blablabla. Then please tell me what can a pilgrim do in a gang? Its just an expensive heavy tackler after the changes. This is also not what recons are supposed to be and its nos/neut bonus is useless in that case.

Its the only recon that has to operate in web range - this always gave it a special role which it can't do now anymore. Web range = damage = need to tank = need steady capflow until fight is over = you're screwed.

Lord WarATron
Amarr
Shadow Warri0rs
Posted - 2007.08.09 18:39:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Lord WarATron on 09/08/2007 18:42:57
Originally by: Murehz
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Murehz
Anyone with a cap booster could laugh at alot of curse pre patch as well... your point being.


Not really. They could definately tank it while their charges last, but thats about it. Post patch they can outlast it, aka they will have cap boosters left when the curse has run out of them and still permatank it at infinitium.

Postpatch a huginn or lachesis can likely to be more effective than the curse vs a target with a cap injector since they have around 100 more dps.


I present to you the missile curse.


As a Launcher Curse pilot (yes, I never used damps in my Sheild Tanked Launcher Nano Curse.... Ever) I can safely say that AWU lvl5 + Jav HAM Sacri outclasses the curse in this field. So missile curse's are no longer useful.

I have been promoting the use of Shield Tanked Launcher curse's since the curse came out. And if the Missile curse has lost its top supporter, then thats telling you something. A secret of missile curse pilots is that they also use a nos or two, otherwise all they have is a poor mans cerebus.

Murehz
Posted - 2007.08.09 18:49:00 - [26]
 

I wouldn't really call the NOS on missile curses a secret. I know Sac will do it better now, thats why I can't wait until it comes out.

IMO curse will still be fine and I really can't be bothered to argue any more about it. Heck I doubt you'd even need a booster depending on how you fit/use your curse.

Lord WarATron
Amarr
Shadow Warri0rs
Posted - 2007.08.09 19:05:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Lord WarATron on 09/08/2007 19:05:42
Originally by: Murehz
I wouldn't really call the NOS on missile curses a secret. I know Sac will do it better now, thats why I can't wait until it comes out.

IMO curse will still be fine and I really can't be bothered to argue any more about it. Heck I doubt you'd even need a booster depending on how you fit/use your curse.


The curse will still have a role. I forse it as a ship that can be made to sustain 4 T2 Neuts and a MWD forever in a semi nano setup with no cap booster, so it can be used in gangs as a weak neutship to bleed everyones cap. Given the curse bonues, the curse pilot can simply target 4 people, fire a neut at each, and mwd around to stay out of fire and obviously out of enemy nos/neut range. But since everyone carries cap boosters, I guess anti-capitalship warfare is where this ship is going to shine.

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.08.09 19:10:00 - [28]
 

Numbers of pilots have reported that they can still solo fine on SiSi with modified setups for the Curse... maybe not quite as good as they used to but still very well. FOTM pilots will obviously have difficulties.

The Pilgrim is severely hurt.

A dev already posted that ships with NOS bonuses are being looked at for modification with respect to the proposed NOS changes.

Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
Posted - 2007.08.09 19:12:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Borasao

A dev already posted that ships with NOS bonuses are being looked at for modification with respect to the proposed NOS changes.


Isent this the same as half a year ago when the Dev's said that Amarr ships are being looked at?

2009 - The curse back to its glory!


Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2007.08.09 19:14:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Originally by: Borasao

A dev already posted that ships with NOS bonuses are being looked at for modification with respect to the proposed NOS changes.


Isent this the same as half a year ago when the Dev's said that Amarr ships are being looked at?

2009 - The curse back to its glory!




Heh... maybe so :) but at least they're saying they're looking at it *before* the other stuff goes in... Smile


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