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weighd
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.08.15 20:40:00 - [451]
 

I may have miss read something but in the revamping of the Ice Harvesters link, is it going to change from reducing time and go to reducing cap? I'm all for the time reduction don't have a problem with cap.

Angela Toren
Amarr
Toren Shipyards
Posted - 2007.08.16 00:08:00 - [452]
 

Edited by: Angela Toren on 16/08/2007 00:12:10
For those whining about it's defence/lack of offense you have to understand thats the trade off. Everything in EVE must have a risk vs reward or it is not balanced.

If you want a deep space 'optimus-prime' mining platform that can jump over gate camps, store ships, store mods, provide fittings, give command bonuses, clone your mining pals, tractor beam mining cans from 200km AND compress your ore then there has to be a trade-off else its not balanced.

Do you ever go mining in 0.0 or very low sec in just a mining barge alone? Just because this ship is capital it doesn't mean it has to be a solopwnmobile. All capital ships require support and thats how it should always be.

Also I want to add; to prevent this ship from being placed at a pos as nothing more than a compressor I would suggest possibly one more deep space industrial use, bonus or ability for it so its encouraged to be used in belts as by design. Maybe change the drone damage bonus to a mining drone yield bonus for it and the whole gang?

Artmedis Valben
Gallente
Posted - 2007.08.16 00:10:00 - [453]
 

Laser Optimation (renamed?) will reduce cycles for all kinds of mining (ice and gas also)
Ice Harvesting (renamed) will reduce cap on all kinds of mining turrets
Drone Co-Ordination (renamed) will increase range on all kinds of turrets

Cap and Range may have +3% per level base and cycles will keep their -2% per level base adjustment.

weighd
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.08.16 02:44:00 - [454]
 

Thnx Artmedis ValbenVery Happy

Andrus Delai
M. Corp Engineering
Daisho Syndicate
Posted - 2007.08.16 03:39:00 - [455]
 

Originally by: Artmedis Valben
Laser Optimation (renamed?) will reduce cycles for all kinds of mining (ice and gas also)
Ice Harvesting (renamed) will reduce cap on all kinds of mining turrets
Drone Co-Ordination (renamed) will increase range on all kinds of turrets

Cap and Range may have +3% per level base and cycles will keep their -2% per level base adjustment.

I can't see any use in reducing the cap use of mining lasers. That one should be changed.

Clorthos
Gallente
The Maverick Navy
Posted - 2007.08.16 05:20:00 - [456]
 

more ship maint bay please, need some room for clone jump hulks

Lougra
Gallente
Posted - 2007.08.16 06:33:00 - [457]
 

Originally by: Angela Toren
Edited by: Angela Toren on 16/08/2007 00:12:10
For those whining about it's defence/lack of offense you have to understand thats the trade off. Everything in EVE must have a risk vs reward or it is not balanced.


We have to pay 2.000.000isk for a bpo which cannot be found in empire.
That bpo can build a ship which takes ore equivalent of bc while the bc bpos costs 340m for tier 2 bc and can be bought in empire.
That ship cannot tank even rats in empire, you can destroy it even if you equip a cheap frigate with t1 cheap guns, and when i mine i have to warp back to station every 6 mins to store my mined ore, OR ore thieves wating for me to launch can, OR ccp expecting me to buy a new account to use it as hauler. Even if i get a 2nd account, every belt in "safe space" is ripped out because of mms.
Even at this case, im not able to get more than 1-2m within an hour while ratters getting EVERYTHING.
This is the ballance? This is the risk vs reward? I got all the risk. Where is the my reward?Evil or Very Mad

DigsDirt
Posted - 2007.08.16 08:39:00 - [458]
 

Waaay too many posts to read each response, but I imagine this has been mentioned before (not a ***** or a compliment, just a partialed question!):

Account #1
I trained one pilot to be an Command Ship pilot (Claymore), thru Mining Director V and with the Mining Foreman Mindlink Implant, etc. and associated Link Module skills to assist the massive MO's in speed, tanking, etc.

Account #2
I trained one pilot to be the miner (duh). Exhumer V, the entire Industrial tree to IV or V (IV for each ore specialization), etc.

The obvious intent, and per the skill tree, the characters compliment each other. One is for the gang MO Bonus's and the other the miner. Of course, if you examine the skill tree you will see the paths are designed to be complimentary - two characters working in tandum, as it should be, it order to maximize efficiency. This theme is repleat through out Eve, and with good reason (and success! Kudos!)

Looking at the ORE Cap ship mentioned, I can only PRAY that it is the miners that are expected to have the skills for using the ore compressor and NOT the ORE Cap ship pilot. Obviously my opinion is somewhat tainted, but not irresponsibly I believe. I KNOW I'm speaking ignorant of the actual ship application and usage, which may already be fully disclosed, so my question/opinion may be a waste of typing but:

1. Will other pilots operate the refinery for compression, which appears natural in flow
-or-
2. Is the Ore cap ship pilot expected to operate the refinery?

If #1, that makes complete sense.
If #2 it means that in order to take full advantage of the ship, either a miner must train along the gang control route for the link modules (such as leverage by the command ship pilots)
or it means the command ship pilots will need to learn mining skills in order to provide their gang link module skills.

If someone has a little more info on this / thoughts, I would sincerly be interested.

THANKS! (again, sorry if this was previously well covered)



Montaire
Krusual Developments
Posted - 2007.08.16 09:16:00 - [459]
 

All of this is covered in this post somewhere. The answer is basicly Both. You need mining skills and command skills to fly this ship.


Originally by: DigsDirt
Waaay too many posts to read each response, but I imagine this has been mentioned before (not a ***** or a compliment, just a partialed question!):

Account #1
I trained one pilot to be an Command Ship pilot (Claymore), thru Mining Director V and with the Mining Foreman Mindlink Implant, etc. and associated Link Module skills to assist the massive MO's in speed, tanking, etc.

Account #2
I trained one pilot to be the miner (duh). Exhumer V, the entire Industrial tree to IV or V (IV for each ore specialization), etc.

The obvious intent, and per the skill tree, the characters compliment each other. One is for the gang MO Bonus's and the other the miner. Of course, if you examine the skill tree you will see the paths are designed to be complimentary - two characters working in tandum, as it should be, it order to maximize efficiency. This theme is repleat through out Eve, and with good reason (and success! Kudos!)

Looking at the ORE Cap ship mentioned, I can only PRAY that it is the miners that are expected to have the skills for using the ore compressor and NOT the ORE Cap ship pilot. Obviously my opinion is somewhat tainted, but not irresponsibly I believe. I KNOW I'm speaking ignorant of the actual ship application and usage, which may already be fully disclosed, so my question/opinion may be a waste of typing but:

1. Will other pilots operate the refinery for compression, which appears natural in flow
-or-
2. Is the Ore cap ship pilot expected to operate the refinery?

If #1, that makes complete sense.
If #2 it means that in order to take full advantage of the ship, either a miner must train along the gang control route for the link modules (such as leverage by the command ship pilots)
or it means the command ship pilots will need to learn mining skills in order to provide their gang link module skills.

If someone has a little more info on this / thoughts, I would sincerly be interested.

THANKS! (again, sorry if this was previously well covered)




Chruker
Posted - 2007.08.16 10:21:00 - [460]
 

Originally by: DigsDirt
1. Will other pilots operate the refinery for compression, which appears natural in flow
-or-
2. Is the Ore cap ship pilot expected to operate the refinery?


Only the capital pilot can operate the refinery.

Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
Posted - 2007.08.16 21:04:00 - [461]
 

This is something that realy should change... If it uses the manufacturing interface, why can't it be public/corp/whatever like the POS factories? This would greatly improve the usefullness, and allow people to specialize in a certain PART of the operation, instead of one guy having to have ALL the skills.

Elementatia
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.08.17 07:47:00 - [462]
 

Hi guys !

By the way one question about mining future:

---> What is the nature of system wide asteroid belts. And what is the difference for miners compared to now ?

And one remark to the "give miners love !" developement.

--> The devs and all we players focus mainly on how to mine and what to get out of mining. Thatīs ok. Itīs the main point of our view and it has to be.

BUT !

We also do play to expirience fun, to expirience a story. I do miss this in mining.
Right now there is only a "flat" story in the miners business.

Flat Story "Verldspar is the most common mineral..."

Better Story: (copy from Wikipedia and adapted for eve)

"Feldspar is the name of a group of rock-forming minerals which makes up more than 60% of all known asteroid belts.

Feldspars crystallize from magma, and they can also occur as compact minerals, as veins, and are also present in many types of metamorphic rock.

The use of veldspar in shipconsturction is based on ...and needed because of.
The mineral is especially known for itīs good...."

Maybe you could include those kind of deeper descriptions to the types of ore and to the mining lasers (how lasers get the ore out of the roids...)

Joyfull Death
Posted - 2007.08.17 07:50:00 - [463]
 

I canīt await to get the new baby in my hands.
I got nice gang assist bonuses, but I think that one thing is missing. A capital veldspar miner. Some of the big roids (140k and more) are in the need of such a specialized miner that have a 200% or 300% bouns to the t2 stripminer. One of it will be nice, because your trained industry skills will have an direct affect.
Otherwise you are nothing else than a big hangar that give bonuses to the gang.
It is great to the gang, but as a miner you want to see roids disappear by your miner power. One of such a capital miner will be great.

Fly save

albert jan
Evolution
Posted - 2007.08.17 10:07:00 - [464]
 

is there a way for me to get into this ship on the sisi server (since i don't have the skills for it yet but i want to try it out before i go all out for the skills..)

anyone able to boost my skills on sisi (or rather wich GM do i contact to make this happen ?)

Sanddor
Posted - 2007.08.17 12:48:00 - [465]
 

Is the capital ore ship confined to low sec only?




Sanddor

Montaire
Krusual Developments
Posted - 2007.08.17 13:41:00 - [466]
 

Some informatoin that would be really nice :


1 - When does this come out. Any ETA would be good.

2 - How much does the Ship BPO cost ?

3 - What are the skill req's for the Capital Tractor Beam ?

Cyberman Mastermind
Posted - 2007.08.17 14:39:00 - [467]
 

Originally by: Elementatia
Maybe you could include those kind of deeper descriptions to the types of ore and to the mining lasers (how lasers get the ore out of the roids...)


The lasers working is partially explained in the story about the mining drones:
http://www.eve-online.com/background/potw/dec02.asp

At least I suppose they use the same technology, with lasers perhaps being more advanced.

What I'd like to see is more use for those fake ores. "Fools gneiss" and such.
Perhaps requiring Astrogeology to recognize them for what they are. Would be fitting in the story as well, IMO. Currently, any newborn can differentiate every ore and it's fake counterpart.

CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2007.08.17 14:55:00 - [468]
 

When does this come out. Any ETA would be good.

Revelations 2.2 slated for end of august.

How much does the Ship BPO cost?

3 billion

What are the skill req's for the Capital Tractor Beam ?

graviton physics 4.

Apertotes
Posted - 2007.08.17 16:02:00 - [469]
 

Edited by: Apertotes on 17/08/2007 16:09:07
Chronotis, i am very worried about the skills needed to usufully fly this ship. you are mixing two skill careers that in my opinion should not be mixed. EVE already is very steep for new players, and the only way to compete is specialization. this ship achieves really the opposite. commanders will need to train industrial skills which will be completely useless on any other ship they fly or activity they engage.

meanwhile, industrial chars will need to train leadership skills just for this one ship, skills that wont do any good for them on any other activity they may do.

i think CCP hasnt looked very closely the situation. before the gang upgrade (or downgrade), any player in the gang could boost his mates. then you introduced the mining leadership skills. the first one - mining foreman - was useful for everybody, since it inmediatly boosted mining amount of everybody on the gang. thus, many miners trained that skill.

the second mining leadership skill - mining director - was a slap in the face for dedicated miners, since it only worked on BCs, meaning that any mining gang needed a non-barge ship if it wanted a full bonus. but in the end we swallowed it up, and convinced our BC mates to train that skill (which required mining foreman 5, something that many of the miners already had, so it didnt boost mining any more).

after some discussions, we convinced commanders (now completely dedicated because of the fleet upgrade) to train those mining leadership skills, even though many of them felt there were many more important skills to train.

and now, CCP wants them to train industrial skills. i dont think many commanders will waste 2 or 3 months of training time for a capital winrar. and if they do, it will screw them a lot. commanders (even more those on capital ships) already have a huge career (skillpoints wise) and i dont think opening a whole new training tree for them will make them happy.

on the other side, i do not think that any industrial char (who usually have low perc and willp) will want to train all the way to capital ships and add on top of that enough leaderships skills so that it'll be worth to use one precious fleet boost position with this ship. and of course, forget about his mining career, since this ship doesnt mine.

anyway you look at it, i think you are mixing 2 very deep and different careers, making a new one, with huge skill necessities, and only able to use one ship and do one thing.

please, think about, and at least let gang mates operate the compression machine when docked or near the rorqual, so that the pilot doesnt need to train all those industrial skills that for sure 90% of its gang mates will already have trained.

CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2007.08.17 17:46:00 - [470]
 

Update

The industrial core fuel use and industrial reconfiguration bonus has been changed in light of some changes to the assemblyline use which I will talk more about early next week.

Summary info is below:

Regarding the Industrial Core I

The Industrial Core has a duration of 5 minutes and a base fuel consumption of 1000 heavy water modified by the Industrial Reconfiguration skill (-50 heavy water per lvl) and -5% per level of capital industrial ships skill so with maximum skills reduces this to 563 heavy water per 5 minutes.

Chruker
Posted - 2007.08.17 18:35:00 - [471]
 

Edited by: Chruker on 17/08/2007 18:47:38
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Update

The industrial core fuel use and industrial reconfiguration bonus has been changed in light of some changes to the assemblyline use which I will talk more about early next week.

Summary info is below:

Regarding the Industrial Core I

The Industrial Core has a duration of 5 minutes and a base fuel consumption of 1000 heavy water modified by the Industrial Reconfiguration skill (-50 heavy water per lvl) and -5% per level of capital industrial ships skill so with maximum skills reduces this to 563 heavy water per 5 minutes.


heh, I hear many people clapping their small hands

Isn't it 600 units with both skills at level 5?

Borgholio
Minmatar
Quantum Industries
Prime Orbital Systems
Posted - 2007.08.17 18:52:00 - [472]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Update

The industrial core fuel use and industrial reconfiguration bonus has been changed in light of some changes to the assemblyline use which I will talk more about early next week.

Summary info is below:

Regarding the Industrial Core I

The Industrial Core has a duration of 5 minutes and a base fuel consumption of 1000 heavy water modified by the Industrial Reconfiguration skill (-50 heavy water per lvl) and -5% per level of capital industrial ships skill so with maximum skills reduces this to 563 heavy water per 5 minutes.


oh...hell...yes...

/me dances

This post has received the Borgholio Seal of Approval™.

ChowChow
Posted - 2007.08.17 21:19:00 - [473]
 

Please include ice compression in the patch, some of us do mine 0.0 ice as a career choice u know :-)

Chruker
Posted - 2007.08.17 21:45:00 - [474]
 

Originally by: ChowChow
Please include ice compression in the patch, some of us do mine 0.0 ice as a career choice u know :-)


uhmmm, it can already compress ice

scotayne hawkins
Posted - 2007.08.17 22:21:00 - [475]
 

been dreaming of this blog for years now massive thanks to the dev's who've finally got it out here with a release date.

signed every serious mining gang in EvE

Karanth
Gallente
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2007.08.18 00:17:00 - [476]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Update

The industrial core fuel use and industrial reconfiguration bonus has been changed in light of some changes to the assemblyline use which I will talk more about early next week.

Summary info is below:

Regarding the Industrial Core I

The Industrial Core has a duration of 5 minutes and a base fuel consumption of 1000 heavy water modified by the Industrial Reconfiguration skill (-50 heavy water per lvl) and -5% per level of capital industrial ships skill so with maximum skills reduces this to 563 heavy water per 5 minutes.


Now Heavy Water has a use, and unless Eris comes up with something (or another sig mod Wink) you are now my god.

All hail Chronotis!


Redback911
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.08.18 10:48:00 - [477]
 

Originally by: Chruker
Originally by: ChowChow
Please include ice compression in the patch, some of us do mine 0.0 ice as a career choice u know :-)


uhmmm, it can already compress ice


Please read where he says the ice compression may be delayed before trolling.

Qelen Seastrider
Accelerated Research and Manufacturing Sciences
The Last Brigade
Posted - 2007.08.18 13:14:00 - [478]
 

The new ship sounds nice. It fails of being spectacular because of its narrow purposed usage. And speaking of that, what happened to logical progression? I'm speaking of ssomething in between the Hulk and this behemoth-sized flying moon? It's the same thing as on the freighter side of things- you have industrial haulers up to 8 or 9 k m3 and then it jumps straight to freighters at 800k m3 or so. Does it make any sense at all that humanity would have left that huge gap? I say NO! If you want logic and sense to rule EVE, then create a 'regional bulk hauler' of around 125k ( that fits one general freight container) and something like a heavy mining platform to match. Make it capable of mounting 4-5 strip miners and carrying a base 50k of ore. That's your really useful mining ship- something that can mine decent amounts of low-sec ores and carry it back to a refinery, without having to use a jetcan.

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2007.08.18 15:41:00 - [479]
 

Edited by: Nyphur on 18/08/2007 19:16:29
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Update

The industrial core fuel use and industrial reconfiguration bonus has been changed in light of some changes to the assemblyline use which I will talk more about early next week.

Summary info is below:

Regarding the Industrial Core I

The Industrial Core has a duration of 5 minutes and a base fuel consumption of 1000 heavy water modified by the Industrial Reconfiguration skill (-50 heavy water per lvl) and -5% per level of capital industrial ships skill so with maximum skills reduces this to 563 heavy water per 5 minutes.

I was JUST writing an article about how the strontium use of the Rorqual makes it useless for compressing lowends and you pull this out of your hat :). Good show. Is there anything to be said for increasing compression rates for lowends a bit more so they can be compressed for transport into 0.0 a bit more easily? And how about looking some more at making it desirable to place this ship in an asteroid belt? I am absolutely serious in saying that I want to be literally forced to put this in a belt to get any benefit. I don't even want industrial mode to work outside of a belt.

I was looking at your reasons behind not having a POS shield type bubble and I can see why they would be a stumbling block but it's not an unsurmountable problem. Could you not force the ship to be within 10km of an asteroid in order to go into deployed mode? After all, if it's going to become an industrial platform, surely it has to anchor itself on something. Make it so that you have to target two asteroids and then hit the industrial core button. It would shoot out a tractor beam style beam to those asteroids, throw up a target scattering field on them so they can't be targetted and enter industrial mode. Once in industrial mode, it could expand its shields out like a POS.

Make the industrial core not function in deadspace and give it a bonus to shield strength. That POS bubble shield it emits would be the Rorqual's actual shields and you would have to make it so that the field would disappear if the Rorqual dropped below say 25% shield. You wouldn't need the remote shield transfer bonus any more, of course, and the bubble COULD be used as a staging area for defence of the mining gang if hostiles showed up, as well it should be. So using my idea, the industrial mode only works in an asteroid belt (thus forcing it to be deployed to gain benefit from it), it puts a heavy emphasis on defence of the mining gang and it rules out all possible abuses of the shield bubble. Can you see any gaping flaws in my idea that I may have missed?


I'm getting the feeling, however, that you're in the unenviable position of having predetermined all of the mechanics behind the ship and only being allowed to work with balance. That would mean that no matter how well anyone argues for it, the POS bubble idea would never make it into the game. That's a little disheartening if it's true.. is it true?


EDIT: Actually, the lowends seem to compress nicely. A Rorqual full of compressed veldspar is about on par with a carrier full of passive targetters or maybe even better. Good job.

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2007.08.18 15:42:00 - [480]
 

Originally by: Qelen Seastrider
The new ship sounds nice. It fails of being spectacular because of its narrow purposed usage. And speaking of that, what happened to logical progression? I'm speaking of ssomething in between the Hulk and this behemoth-sized flying moon? It's the same thing as on the freighter side of things- you have industrial haulers up to 8 or 9 k m3 and then it jumps straight to freighters at 800k m3 or so. Does it make any sense at all that humanity would have left that huge gap? I say NO! If you want logic and sense to rule EVE, then create a 'regional bulk hauler' of around 125k ( that fits one general freight container) and something like a heavy mining platform to match. Make it capable of mounting 4-5 strip miners and carrying a base 50k of ore. That's your really useful mining ship- something that can mine decent amounts of low-sec ores and carry it back to a refinery, without having to use a jetcan.

Your argument doesn't apply at all because the Rorqual actually has virtually no mining ability. It's not the same as the difference between a hauler and a freighter.


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