open All Channels
seplocked Ships and Modules
blankseplocked Eagle -- 5th Turret?
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : ... 48 49 50 51 [52] 53 54 55 56 ... : last (62)

Author Topic

KD.Fluffy
Caldari
Sacred Templars
Black Swan.
Posted - 2007.09.25 22:01:00 - [1531]
 

Quote:
Originally by: Goumindong
The eagle shouldnt have spike loaded. And yea, if the eagle has long range ammo loaded and needs to change it will suffer a 10 second penalty compared to the Muninn.

Anyway, i have layed out situations where its advantagious for the eagle to enter the fight with Thorium loaded. The same doesnt exist of the Muninn since it shold have that range of ammo loaded initially.



Just for the record. A thorium fitted Eagle vs a Carbonized Lead fitted Muninn means:

- Almost same firing range for both ships (slight advantage for Muninn)
- 2dps more for the Eagle
- 2x bigger Alpha for the Muninn
- Over 10% better tracking for the Muninn
--


which just goes to show how badly the eagle is outperformed... Then when you factor the drone bay in too it starts to look really bad.

Ferocious FeAr
THE FINAL STAND
Everto Rex Regis
Posted - 2007.09.25 22:21:00 - [1532]
 

If Eagle somehow gets a 5th slot that would require the vulture to get a 6th, otherwise there is no point in upgrading.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.09.25 22:23:00 - [1533]
 

Originally by: MailFan
Originally by: Goumindong

The eagle shouldnt have spike loaded. And yea, if the eagle has long range ammo loaded and needs to change it will suffer a 10 second penalty compared to the Muninn.

Anyway, i have layed out situations where its advantagious for the eagle to enter the fight with Thorium loaded. The same doesnt exist of the Muninn since it shold have that range of ammo loaded initially.


Just for the record. A thorium fitted Eagle vs a Carbonized Lead fitted Muninn means:

- Almost same firing range for both ships (slight advantage for Muninn)
- 2dps more for the Eagle
- 2x bigger Alpha for the Muninn
- Over 10% better tracking for the Muninn


No, only when you overfit the Muninn compared to the Eagle. At HAC 4 the Eagle actually will track better, and the Muninn will track 1.8% better than the Eagle when fit similarly. As well either the Eagle gets more DPS on top of that[4th damage mod] or the more likly damage control for more hit points.[206 dps, or [email protected] hac4]

Zixxa
Posted - 2007.09.25 23:24:00 - [1534]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Man what? The Zealot does less dps at its optimal range than the Eagle does. How in the world is that "cutting through enemy fleets with striking ease"?


You lie. Zealot does more damage.

Zixxa
Posted - 2007.09.25 23:25:00 - [1535]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: MailFan
Originally by: Goumindong

The eagle shouldnt have spike loaded. And yea, if the eagle has long range ammo loaded and needs to change it will suffer a 10 second penalty compared to the Muninn.

Anyway, i have layed out situations where its advantagious for the eagle to enter the fight with Thorium loaded. The same doesnt exist of the Muninn since it shold have that range of ammo loaded initially.


Just for the record. A thorium fitted Eagle vs a Carbonized Lead fitted Muninn means:

- Almost same firing range for both ships (slight advantage for Muninn)
- 2dps more for the Eagle
- 2x bigger Alpha for the Muninn
- Over 10% better tracking for the Muninn


No, only when you overfit the Muninn compared to the Eagle. At HAC 4 the Eagle actually will track better, and the Muninn will track 1.8% better than the Eagle when fit similarly. As well either the Eagle gets more DPS on top of that[4th damage mod] or the more likly damage control for more hit points.[206 dps, or [email protected] hac4]

you lie, you do not need to overfit Munnin to make them better than Eagle

Elmicker
Wreckless Abandon
Posted - 2007.09.25 23:34:00 - [1536]
 

Originally by: Zixxa
you lie, you do not need to overfit Munnin to make them better than Eagle


Comparably, the munnin is overfit. The comparison made required max skills, and lacked several essential modules that the eagle had, which could have dropped to improve performance.

Yuki Li
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
Posted - 2007.09.26 01:03:00 - [1537]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Yuki Li

Tracking



Protip: Fit tracking modules on to your snipers


Nice attempted out on what was posted as a fair comparison between weapon types. You said the Eagle tracks better than the Muninn and Zealot, which is utter trash.

Also, the part of my original post you quoted that prompted this comparison, was addressing the poor concept of an Eagle with a tank in its medslots.

Don't try and dodge the issue because you completely failed to utilize any actual facts in your previous post.

You're trashtalking to push your opinion, not arguing any actual point.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.09.26 01:36:00 - [1538]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 26/09/2007 01:38:29
Originally by: Yuki Li
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Yuki Li

Tracking



Protip: Fit tracking modules on to your snipers


Nice attempted out on what was posted as a fair comparison between weapon types. You said the Eagle tracks better than the Muninn and Zealot, which is utter trash.

Also, the part of my original post you quoted that prompted this comparison, was addressing the poor concept of an Eagle with a tank in its medslots.

Don't try and dodge the issue because you completely failed to utilize any actual facts in your previous post.

You're trashtalking to push your opinion, not arguing any actual point.


HAC 5 Tracking:
Muninn Tracking: .0561
Eagle Tracking: .05519
Zealot Trackin: .05155

Now you could probably get the Zealot a bit higher with a tracking computer, and it isnt rigged whereas the Muninn and Eagle in this description are. However, if you unrig the Muninn and the Eagle, they both track around .49 with the eagle a bit higher. And frankly i have never seen a rigged Zealot for fleet warefare.[Or eagle or Muninn for that matter, though the Muninn gains the most out of the rigging, the eagle still remains on top]

ed: The Zealot does hit .612 with a TC and two rigs, but its still down at 177 dps[with 4 heat sinks, compared to 206 from the Eagle at the same range in the same fitting config]

So, i repeat fit tracking modules onto your snipers

Yuki Li
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
Posted - 2007.09.26 03:28:00 - [1539]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 26/09/2007 01:38:29
Originally by: Yuki Li
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Yuki Li

Tracking



Protip: Fit tracking modules on to your snipers


Nice attempted out on what was posted as a fair comparison between weapon types. You said the Eagle tracks better than the Muninn and Zealot, which is utter trash.

Also, the part of my original post you quoted that prompted this comparison, was addressing the poor concept of an Eagle with a tank in its medslots.

Don't try and dodge the issue because you completely failed to utilize any actual facts in your previous post.

You're trashtalking to push your opinion, not arguing any actual point.


HAC 5 Tracking:
Muninn Tracking: .0561
Eagle Tracking: .05519
Zealot Trackin: .05155

Now you could probably get the Zealot a bit higher with a tracking computer, and it isnt rigged whereas the Muninn and Eagle in this description are. However, if you unrig the Muninn and the Eagle, they both track around .49 with the eagle a bit higher. And frankly i have never seen a rigged Zealot for fleet warefare.[Or eagle or Muninn for that matter, though the Muninn gains the most out of the rigging, the eagle still remains on top]

ed: The Zealot does hit .612 with a TC and two rigs, but its still down at 177 dps[with 4 heat sinks, compared to 206 from the Eagle at the same range in the same fitting config]

So, i repeat fit tracking modules onto your snipers


lol, where are you getting these figures?

Lets try it with tracking mods, seen as you seem to think that me comparing the weapons WITHOUT tracking mods is going to make any difference whatsoever to the result WITH tracking mods.

The only possible deviation you could ever hope for would come from differing slot layouts, but I'm going to try to keep the quantity of tracking mods as balanced as possible.

My actual fleet fits would vary slightly, as I'd fit a Microwarpdrive, however, in the interest of a fair test as far as tracking is concerned, I want to keep the quantity of tracking mods equal across ships. This puts the Eagle at an advantage, due to medslots. TCs > TEs for tracking.

So please take into account that the Eagle has an edge over the other ships.

All of these stats use HAC level 4.

Eagle
4x 250mm Railgun II
2x Assault Missile Launcher II

1x Y-S8 AB
2x Sensor Booster II
2x Tracking Computer II

3x MFS II
1x Tracking Enhancer II

250mm Railgun II tracking speed: 0.04967


Muninn

5x 720mm Howitzer II
2x Assault Missile Launcher II

2x Sensor Booster II
1x Tracking Computer II

2x Tracking Enhancer II
3x Gyrostabilizer II

720mm Howitzer II Tracking Speed: 0.05304


And finally the Zealot, you'll have to bear with me if the fit seems off, I don't fly Zealots and I'm just looking for the stats with a similar fit.

Zealot

4x Heavy Beam Laser II

2x Sensor Booster II
1x Tracking Computer II

2x Tracking Enhancer II
3x Heat Sink II
1x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1x Medium Armor Repairer II

Heavy Beam Laser II Tracking Speed: 0.0612

So to summarise, each ship has 3 tracking mods, 2 sensor boosters, and 3 damage mods. Those are constants throughout.

Summary:

250mm Railgun II tracking speed: 0.04967 (2x Tracking Computer II 1x Tracking Enhancer II)
720mm Howitzer II Tracking Speed: 0.05304 (1x Tracking Computer II 2x Tracking Enhancer II)
Heavy Beam Laser II Tracking Speed: 0.0612 (1x Tracking Computer II 2x Tracking Enhancer II)

Now, considering the only one of the three that gets a tracking bonus is the Muninn, I don't know where you're getting information that the Eagle has better tracking than the other two.

Unless you're intentionally fitting less tracking mods to the others, and then trying to call that a balanced comparison, I have no idea where you're getting your figures from.


Elenath
Gallente
Bluebird Capital Management
Posted - 2007.09.26 05:59:00 - [1540]
 

Edited by: Elenath on 26/09/2007 06:01:03
Originally by: Yuki Li
lol, where are you getting these figures?

Lets try it with tracking mods, seen as you seem to think that me comparing the weapons WITHOUT tracking mods is going to make any difference whatsoever to the result WITH tracking mods.

The only possible deviation you could ever hope for would come from differing slot layouts, but I'm going to try to keep the quantity of tracking mods as balanced as possible.

My actual fleet fits would vary slightly, as I'd fit a Microwarpdrive, however, in the interest of a fair test as far as tracking is concerned, I want to keep the quantity of tracking mods equal across ships. This puts the Eagle at an advantage, due to medslots. TCs > TEs for tracking.

So please take into account that the Eagle has an edge over the other ships.

All of these stats use HAC level 4.

Eagle
4x 250mm Railgun II
2x Assault Missile Launcher II

1x Y-S8 AB
2x Sensor Booster II
2x Tracking Computer II

3x MFS II
1x Tracking Enhancer II

250mm Railgun II tracking speed: 0.04967


Muninn

5x 720mm Howitzer II
2x Assault Missile Launcher II

2x Sensor Booster II
1x Tracking Computer II

2x Tracking Enhancer II
3x Gyrostabilizer II

720mm Howitzer II Tracking Speed: 0.05304


And finally the Zealot, you'll have to bear with me if the fit seems off, I don't fly Zealots and I'm just looking for the stats with a similar fit.

Zealot

4x Heavy Beam Laser II

2x Sensor Booster II
1x Tracking Computer II

2x Tracking Enhancer II
3x Heat Sink II
1x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1x Medium Armor Repairer II

Heavy Beam Laser II Tracking Speed: 0.0612

So to summarise, each ship has 3 tracking mods, 2 sensor boosters, and 3 damage mods. Those are constants throughout.

Summary:

250mm Railgun II tracking speed: 0.04967 (2x Tracking Computer II 1x Tracking Enhancer II)
720mm Howitzer II Tracking Speed: 0.05304 (1x Tracking Computer II 2x Tracking Enhancer II)
Heavy Beam Laser II Tracking Speed: 0.0612 (1x Tracking Computer II 2x Tracking Enhancer II)

Now, considering the only one of the three that gets a tracking bonus is the Muninn, I don't know where you're getting information that the Eagle has better tracking than the other two.

Unless you're intentionally fitting less tracking mods to the others, and then trying to call that a balanced comparison, I have no idea where you're getting your figures from.



Goumindong gets pwned again.

d026
temp holding
Posted - 2007.09.26 09:16:00 - [1541]
 

Edited by: d026 on 26/09/2007 09:16:15
Originally by: Yuki Li

tracking



he will argue that you cant fit a tracking comp on a muninn because you wold have to sacrifice your mwd:)





MailFan
Stormlord Battleforce
Dark Matter Coalition
Posted - 2007.09.26 09:37:00 - [1542]
 

Originally by: d026

he will argue that you cant fit a tracking comp on a muninn because you wold have to sacrifice your mwd:)



Yep and he will ignore the fact that you can fit 1 sensor booster fine. And if you're still not happy buy a really cheap rig that increases your targetting range. Hell, I would be fitting the rig if I were a Muninn pilot.

Tracking for the Eagle: 0.04967
Tracking for the Muninn: 0.0561
Tracking for the Zealot: 0.06284 (Does do 15 dps less than the Eagle)

13% less tracking for the Eagle compared to the Muninn
26% less tracking for the Eagle compared to the Zealot

Im sorry, what huge advantages did the Eagle have to justify it only being able to fulfill one niche?

It's at least being matched by 'allrounders' and in some cases outperformed.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.09.26 09:47:00 - [1543]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 26/09/2007 09:54:48
Originally by: Yuki Li
Exuro Mortis aparently likes losing their entire support fleet when they have to move out of a bubble.


If you are going to fit ridiculously then at least fit evenly you disingenius punk.

Eagle:
SBII, SBII, TC, TC, TC
MFS, MFS, MFS, MFS

Tracking: .05519

The fact is that the standard fits are not anywhere near these, but are instead

Muninn
MWD, SB, SB
TE, Te, Gyro, gyro, gyro

Tracking: .04482

Zealot:
MWD, Sb, SB
Te, TE, TE, HS, HS, HS, wildcard

Tracking: .05155

I mean, what the hell is wrong with you, the eagle is the only one there able to fit an MWD and for some reason you fit an AB instead?

You can rig all three, using one sensor booster and 1-2 lock range mods, with 1-2 speed range mods. That puts the numbers back where I listed.

edit: If you want to be real technical, the tracking of the Zealot and Muninn you listed is actually zero, since they died when they couldnt relocate with the fleet. Fit an MWD.

MailFan
Stormlord Battleforce
Dark Matter Coalition
Posted - 2007.09.26 10:00:00 - [1544]
 

Edited by: MailFan on 26/09/2007 10:01:01
Originally by: Goumindong

If you are going to fit ridiculously then at least fit evenly you disingenius punk.

Eagle:
SBII, SBII, TC, TC, TC
MFS, MFS, MFS, MFS

Tracking: .05519

The fact is that the standard fits are not anywhere near these, but are instead

Muninn
MWD, SB, SB
TE, Te, Gyro, gyro, gyro

Tracking: .04482

Zealot:
MWD, Sb, SB
Te, TE, TE, HS, HS, HS, wildcard

Tracking: .05155

I mean, what the hell is wrong with you, the eagle is the only one there able to fit an MWD and for some reason you fit an AB instead?

You can rig all three, using one sensor booster and 1-2 lock range mods, with 1-2 speed range mods. That puts the numbers back where I listed.

edit: If you want to be real technical, the tracking of the Zealot and Muninn you listed is actually zero, since they died when they couldnt relocate with the fleet. Fit an MWD.


Since you missed it:

Yep and he will ignore the fact that you can fit 1 sensor booster fine. And if you're still not happy buy a really cheap rig that increases your targetting range. Hell, I would be fitting the rig if I were a Muninn pilot.

This is with perfectly normal and comparable fittings.

Tracking for the Eagle: 0.04967
Tracking for the Muninn: 0.0561
Tracking for the Zealot: 0.06284 (Does do 15 dps less than the Eagle)

13% less tracking for the Eagle compared to the Muninn
26% less tracking for the Eagle compared to the Zealot

Im sorry, what huge advantages did the Eagle have to justify it only being able to fulfill one niche?

It's at least being matched by 'allrounders' and in some cases outperformed.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.09.26 11:00:00 - [1545]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 26/09/2007 11:04:37
Edited by: Goumindong on 26/09/2007 11:03:09
Originally by: Mailfan

Yep and he will ignore the fact that you can fit 1 sensor booster fine. And if you're still not happy buy a really cheap rig that increases your targetting range. Hell, I would be fitting the rig if I were a Muninn pilot.



Since you misssed it:


You can rig all three, using one sensor booster and 1-2 lock range mods, with 1-2 speed range mods. That puts the numbers back where I listed.


I am using these numbers since you insist on using the rigged ships for comparison.

ed: Oh, and the Zealot does 30 dps less than the Eagle, the rigged eagle does 206 dps, the Zealot 177[both with 4 damage mods]. With 3 damage mods the Eagle does 194 and the Zealot 167 a 27 dps difference.

MailFan
Stormlord Battleforce
Dark Matter Coalition
Posted - 2007.09.26 11:39:00 - [1546]
 

Except you fit them like this:

Eagle: 194dps
Dmg Mod: 3x
TE: 1x
TC: 2x
SB: 2x (Yeah guess what, otherwise it's no use to bring long range ammo anyway)
MWD

Muninn = 192dps
Dmg Mod: 3x
TE: 2x
TC: 1x
SB: 1x (Equals the same as 2 SB on an Eagle since you can lock at your max ammo's range)
MWD

Zealot = 177dps
Dmg Mod: 4x
TE: 3x
TC: 1x
SB: 2x (Same goes for the Zeal)
MWD

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.09.26 12:14:00 - [1547]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 26/09/2007 12:15:22
Originally by: MailFan
Except you fit them like this:

Eagle: 194dps
Dmg Mod: 3x
TE: 1x
TC: 2x
SB: 2x (Yeah guess what, otherwise it's no use to bring long range ammo anyway)
MWD

Muninn = 192dps
Dmg Mod: 3x
TE: 2x
TC: 1x
SB: 1x (Equals the same as 2 SB on an Eagle since you can lock at your max ammo's range)
MWD

Zealot = 177dps
Dmg Mod: 4x
TE: 3x
TC: 1x
SB: 2x (Same goes for the Zeal)
MWD


Yes and no.

The actual fits were

Eagle
guns
mwd, sb, tc, tc, tc,
dmg, dmg, dmg, dmg
2x lock range rigs
.05519 tracking, 206 dps.

locks to 183km.

Muninn
guns
mwd, sb, tc
dmg,dmg,dmg,te,te
1 lock range, 1 lock time rig

Tracking .0561, 192 dps

Zealot
guns
mwd, sb, tc
dmg,dmg,dmg,dmg,te,te,?[neither a TE or HS really makes a difference here]
1 lock range, 1 lock time

Tracking = .0612, 177 dps.

Personally i think the 2 sb build on each is best because lock time is so important and the rigs just arent strong enough to make up the difference, but if you are comparing 1 sb builds to each other, you can do so.

2 sb build numbers are

Muninn 192/.044
Eagle 194/.049
Zealot 177/.051

d026
temp holding
Posted - 2007.09.26 12:16:00 - [1548]
 

Edited by: d026 on 26/09/2007 12:19:15

Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 26/09/2007 09:54:48
Originally by: Yuki Li
Exuro Mortis aparently likes losing their entire support fleet when they have to move out of a bubble.


If you are going to fit ridiculously then at least fit evenly you disingenius punk.



No you fit like its best for the ship and purpose. And the following fits are quite standard for sniping:

Eagle sniper: SBII, SBII, SBII, TC, TC
MFS, MFS, MFS, TE

You not gonna fit a 4th extremely penalized MFS and you never gonna fit a a 4th extremely penalized tracking mod either. You already have good enough tracking and RANGE anyway! So no need to gimp your setup with extremely penalized mods..

This is the setup you are looking for (no MWD on a PURE sniper)

Muninn sniper: TC, SB, SB
TE, TE, Gyro, Gyro, Gyro

Now we get the following conditions:

Both use TI ammo:
- Muninn outtracks T5 Eagle and has better optimal & falloff.
- T5 Eagle does 50 more dps but cant compete with Muninns alpha.

Both use TII ammo:
- Muninn outps and outtracks the T5 Eagle at Munnins optimal.
- T5 Eagle does 33 less dps but has 92k range advantage where Muninn cant hit anyway.

Muninn TI & T5 Eagle TII:
- Muninn outdps T5 Eagle and outtracks T5 eagle.

Muninn TII & T5 Eagle TI:
- Muninn outdps T5 Eagle and Eagle outtracks Muninn.

In conclusion:

This is well balanced. Especially if you consider the Muninns 2 Missiles slots (assault w/precision), drone bay and its better maneuverability giving it almost like double of the Eagles survivability.




Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.09.26 12:38:00 - [1549]
 

Originally by: d026
Whacky tobaccy



Man what?

Why not

SB, SB, TC, TC, TC?
dmg, dmg,dmg, ?

With 2 sensor boosters the eagle locks to 213km! And it can only use that with HAC 5 and spike, which means pretty much never.

The fourth damage mod, if you really really need the DPS, even though it is extreemly stacked isnt always a bad idea. Though yea, i wont usually be fitting it instead of a damage control.

Quote:

Now that we have some whacky builds to use, lets put them into the following whacky conditions:

Both use TI ammo:
- Muninn outtracks T5 Eagle and has better optimal & falloff.
- T5 Eagle does 50 more dps but cant compete with Muninns alpha.

Both use TII ammo:
- Muninn outps and outtracks the T5 Eagle at Munnins optimal.
- T5 Eagle does 33 less dps but has 92k range advantage where Muninn cant hit anyway.


O.K. so the 5 t eagle is doing 50 more dps than the Muninn. But wait, lets use Tech II ammo on the Eagle for no good reason!

Even using your fits the tech 2 comparison with the Muninn and the 5turret eagle, the Eagle out-tracks the Muninn by nearly 4 times and does 7 less dps. Let me think about that.

7 less DPS for 4 times the tracking.

Yea, i take the tracking please.


Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2007.09.26 13:13:00 - [1550]
 

Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 26/09/2007 13:14:56
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: d026
Whacky tobaccy



Man what?

Why not

SB, SB, TC, TC, TC?
dmg, dmg,dmg, ?

With 2 sensor boosters the eagle locks to 213km! And it can only use that with HAC 5 and spike, which means pretty much never.

The fourth damage mod, if you really really need the DPS, even though it is extreemly stacked isnt always a bad idea. Though yea, i wont usually be fitting it instead of a damage control.




That will not work on the Eagle. The 4th damage mod does not help equal Munins alpha advantage. You are shooting low HP fast moving targets, you need:

1. lock very fast and apply damage as soon as possible
2. apply as much damage as possible in one volley

So you either go for a Munin (high alpha) or 3 SBII Eagle (fast lock time).

EDIT: I did not pay attention. Are you realy suggesting that Eagle with t2 ammo will outtrack a Munin 4x ??? prove it

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.09.26 13:18:00 - [1551]
 

Originally by: Hugh Ruka


EDIT: I did not pay attention. Are you realy suggesting that Eagle with t2 ammo will outtrack a Munin 4x ??? prove it


No, i am suggesting you would be an idiot to use t2 ammo at 114km.

d026
temp holding
Posted - 2007.09.26 13:27:00 - [1552]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Hugh Ruka


EDIT: I did not pay attention. Are you realy suggesting that Eagle with t2 ammo will outtrack a Munin 4x ??? prove it


No, i am suggesting you would be an idiot to use t2 ammo at 114km.



yeah you would. but from my experience you usually end up at +150k with the real snipers loading "spike". if during the battle the enemy closes up you just warp your entire sniper fleet to a position +150 off the enemy fleet.



Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.09.26 13:39:00 - [1553]
 

Originally by: d026
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Hugh Ruka


EDIT: I did not pay attention. Are you realy suggesting that Eagle with t2 ammo will outtrack a Munin 4x ??? prove it


No, i am suggesting you would be an idiot to use t2 ammo at 114km.



yeah you would. but from my experience you usually end up at +150k with the real snipers loading "spike". if during the battle the enemy closes up you just warp your entire sniper fleet to a position +150 off the enemy fleet.





So then the Muninns effective dps is zero.

Yuki Li
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
Posted - 2007.09.26 15:03:00 - [1554]
 

Edited by: Yuki Li on 26/09/2007 15:06:39
Originally by: Goumindong

If you are going to fit ridiculously then at least fit evenly you disingenius punk.



Did you even read my post? What was uneven? All three ships had constant factors, I was testing tracking not my ability to fit fleet HACs, I stated that my actual fleet fits would be different.

All this says to me is you're incapable of reading the entire post before you put on your troll hat and start spamming your opinion.

The reason I didn't fit the MWD on the Eagle, is because with that setup you need a PDU in order to get the MWD on, this would mean dropping either the TE or a Mag Stab - Given the fact the optimal range on the setup is fine, and the tracking you get from a TE isn't great, I'd drop the TE for the PDU in order to fit the MWD.

With this in mind, I'd have made it an unfair test, due to the Eagle having less Tracking Mods than the other two.

Can you comprehend that now? Or are you still only interested in trolling?

Now, you still want to insist on using real fleet fits complete with MWDs? That's fine, let's dance.

This is going to be skewed again, in favour of the Eagle, because given the fact you want exact PVP fits, a Nano'd up Micro-warping Pulse Zealot would be more efficient at killing enemy support in a fleet than a beam zealot would, due to mobility and tracking.

But I'm going to give you as many advantages as I can, because apparantly you won't be convinced unless I spell this out backwards on your forehead and send you to look in a mirror.

We'll do this your way, and use some of your silly fitting conventions, like insisting on fitting 2 Sensor Booster IIs to a Zealot despite the fact 3 Tracking Mods only puts it's optimal upto 107km with Aurora, and with 1 Sensor Booster II it locks at 105km.

Initially, you said simply that the Eagle tracks better than both the other ships in it's class with good tracking, the Muninn and the Zealot.

I compared the base stats on all three ships in my first post, showing that the 250mm Rails track worse than both other weapon types.

You insisted that this test was invalid because tracking mods weren't included in the statistics.

So, I fitted tracking mods. I made sure each ship had 3 tracking mods, that was the only feature to the ships that was really relevant to the test. In this scenario the Eagle had a born advantage over the others due to an abundance of medslots - obviously Tracking Computers offer double the Tracking bonus that Enhancers do.

STILL, even with this advantage, the 250mm Railgun IIs had worse tracking than the other two ships.

Now, you call those statistics invalid because I wasn't using a real fleet fit, and didn't have a Microwarpdrive on the setups.

The fits I have here and above don't include rigs, because all three ships have the same quantity of rig slots, making it an exercise in futility that simply overcomplicates the facts.

Eagle

4x 250mm Railgun II
2x Assault Missile Launcher II

1x 10mn MWD II
2x Sensor Booster II
2x Tracking Computer II

3x MFS II
1x PDU II

Antimatter (Spike)
Tracking: 0.04712 Tracking: 0.01178
Optimal Range: 49km Optimal Range: 177km
Falloff: 15
DPS(Guns Only): 213 DPS(Guns Only): 142

Muninn

5x 720mm Howitzer II

2x Sensor Booster II
1x 10mn MWD II

2x Tracking Enhancer II
3x Gyrostabilizer II

EMP (Tremor)
Tracking: 0.04238 Tracking: 0.01059
Optimal Range: 27km Optimal Range: 98km
Falloff: 22
DPS(Guns Only): 301 DPS(Guns Only): 219

Zealot

4x Heavy Beam Laser II

1x 10mn MWD II
2x Sensor Booster II

3x Tracking Enhancer II
3x Heat Sink II
1x Medium Armor Repairer II

MultiFrequency (Aurora)
Tracking: 0.05155 Tracking: 0.01289
Optimal Range: 30km Optimal Range: 107km
Falloff: 10
DPS(Guns Only): 328 DPS(Guns Only): 219


Yuki Li
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
Posted - 2007.09.26 15:05:00 - [1555]
 

Above shows that in a specific scenario (apparantly large, bubble ridden fleets are the only type of combat in eve) the Eagle's 250mm IIs will track better than a Muninn's 720mm IIs, but still fall far short of a Beam Zealot.

Try solo or skirmish pvp one day, maybe you'll discover there's more to Eve than MWDing out of bubbles?



d026
temp holding
Posted - 2007.09.26 15:48:00 - [1556]
 

Edited by: d026 on 26/09/2007 15:53:21
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Hugh Ruka


EDIT: I did not pay attention. Are you realy suggesting that Eagle with t2 ammo will outtrack a Munin 4x ??? prove it


No, i am suggesting you would be an idiot to use t2 ammo at 114km.



yeah you would. but from my experience you usually end up at +150k with the real snipers loading "spike". if during the battle the enemy closes up you just warp your entire sniper fleet to a position +150 off the enemy fleet.





So then the Muninns effective dps is zero.


if you are stupid enough not knowing your optimal. and hint: muninn is not a real sniper (eventough it "snipes" better within its range than the t5 eagle). thats probably why you wont be able to join the bs at 150k:)





Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.09.26 15:53:00 - [1557]
 

Originally by: Yuki Li
Above shows that in a specific scenario (apparantly large, bubble ridden fleets are the only type of combat in eve) the Eagle's 250mm IIs will track better than a Muninn's 720mm IIs, but still fall far short of a Beam Zealot.

Try solo or skirmish pvp one day, maybe you'll discover there's more to Eve than MWDing out of bubbles?





There is, but if you cant MWD out of bubbles, you wont live long enough to see those instances.

Yuki Li
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
Posted - 2007.09.26 15:57:00 - [1558]
 

Edited by: Yuki Li on 26/09/2007 15:57:39
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Yuki Li
Above shows that in a specific scenario (apparantly large, bubble ridden fleets are the only type of combat in eve) the Eagle's 250mm IIs will track better than a Muninn's 720mm IIs, but still fall far short of a Beam Zealot.


Try solo or skirmish pvp one day, maybe you'll discover there's more to Eve than MWDing out of bubbles?





Rolling Eyes

What's your agenda here, Goumindong? How does any of this suggest the Eagle doesn't deserve a fifth turret anyway?

All I'm trying to prove is that 250mm Railguns are not what they should be, you seem to be trolling for the sake of trolling, however.

There is, but if you cant MWD out of bubbles, you wont live long enough to see those instances.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.09.26 16:01:00 - [1559]
 

Originally by: "Yuki Li"

Did you even read my post? What was uneven? All three ships had constant factors, I was testing tracking not my ability to fit fleet HACs, I stated that my actual fleet fits would be different


If you arent testing tracking on fleet fits what does it matter? I mean, i can get a megathron to 15km optimal with blasters, but who cares?

Quote:

The reason I didn't fit the MWD on the Eagle, is because with that setup you need a PDU in order to get the MWD on, this would mean dropping either the TE or a Mag Stab - Given the fact the optimal range on the setup is fine, and the tracking you get from a TE isn't great, I'd drop the TE for the PDU in order to fit the MWD.


No you dont. 4 250IIs, and an MWD fit easily with AWU4.

Quote:

This is going to be skewed again, in favour of the Eagle, because given the fact you want exact PVP fits, a Nano'd up Micro-warping Pulse Zealot would be more efficient at killing enemy support in a fleet than a beam zealot would, due to mobility and tracking.


Bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. 325 DPS at 35km with tracking that wont hit an interceptor =/= better than a beam zealot.

Quote:

We'll do this your way, and use some of your silly fitting conventions, like insisting on fitting 2 Sensor Booster IIs to a Zealot despite the fact 3 Tracking Mods only puts it's optimal upto 107km with Aurora, and with 1 Sensor Booster II it locks at 105km.


Yes, as i said, you can trade the lock time for tracking and still lock above your 110km lock range. That is why i gave you that number.

Also, i like how you are comparing HAC 5 Muninn tracking and HAC 4 Zealot range ;)

Quote:

The fits I have here and above don't include rigs, because all three ships have the same quantity of rig slots, making it an exercise in futility that simply overcomplicates the facts.


The fits you have here suck[2 assault launchers on an Eagle? Why not standards and save yourself 100 powergrid?]. If you rig the ships the eagle tracks about as well as the other two, and better than a HAC 4 muninn. If you dont rig the ships, the eagle tracks better than a HAC 5 muninn and similar to a Zealot.[while doing 27 more dps]

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.09.26 16:05:00 - [1560]
 

Originally by: Yuki Li

What's your agenda here, Goumindong? How does any of this suggest the Eagle doesn't deserve a fifth turret anyway?

All I'm trying to prove is that 250mm Railguns are not what they should be, you seem to be trolling for the sake of trolling, however.


I have no agenda but to balance the eagle, muninn, and zealot in their role as fleet snipers. To this effect the Eagle and Muninn need no changes, and the Zealot a 5th turret. This keeps the advantages of each [Zealot dps, Eagle range, Muninn alpha] while keeping the disadvantages of the eagle in the shorter range low.

The eagle does not need more damage as a sniper, it needs more versitility in the short range, 25 cubes of bay, change the damage bonus to a shield hp bonus, add a turret and fitting for the turret.

Eagle gains shield HP, 25 cubes of drones, ~4.16% dps @ HAC4


Pages: first : previous : ... 48 49 50 51 [52] 53 54 55 56 ... : last (62)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only