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tikinish
Posted - 2007.08.08 14:09:00 - [31]
 

a little bump:)

Ellaine TashMurkon
CBC Interstellar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2007.08.08 14:15:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 08/08/2007 14:16:43
Missles are ok. Fight in close range or use Rokh.

Inty when going so fast uses NWD. Do are drones. You can assume MWD cannot be mounted on missles because they are too small or it would be too expensive or warhead woundnt work.

Caldari do not suck at pvp. They have gun ships and EW ships. They suck in solo pvp. Fly in gangs.

tikinish
Posted - 2007.08.09 14:31:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon
Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 08/08/2007 14:16:43
Missles are ok. Fight in close range or use Rokh.

Inty when going so fast uses NWD. Do are drones. You can assume MWD cannot be mounted on missles because they are too small or it would be too expensive or warhead woundnt work.

Caldari do not suck at pvp. They have gun ships and EW ships. They suck in solo pvp. Fly in gangs.


well it clearly isn't working fine when you are saying "it is useless from long distance even when it is supposed to have a range up to 200km".

your don't with mwd isn't working out, any system that you are able to mount on a ship could be mounted on a missile, if it is too exspensive to do.. emm wait nothing is TOO exspensive to do if that is what is needed for the missiles to hit the target, so that doesn't hold water either.
warhead would explode because of the speed.... it is in space so there is no reason it should effect the warhead, even if there was a wind resistence the warhead modifications would without doubt be able to be used and not get destroyid.

if a ship was ever possible to modifi for high speed you can assure yourself that a smaller object will reach at least the same speed or higher.

well not all there ships are bad, they have a very few ships that can compete in pvp against gellente and minmatar, but almost every ship of theirs will win if you set them up against it's equel caldari ship.
but i do not mind that caldari don't pwn in pvp that is fine, but i do mind that missiles are useless because of the insain speeds that CLEARLY needs a wild and insain nerf to be realsitic...

bs's going over 7km/s that is just lamely unbalanced and stupidly made..

and the worst part is, to balance it out all you need to do is make every speed bonus given calculated on the base speed of the ships (as it is now it will always put the % to the active speed which means that a ship with 100 base speed gets a +100 speed increase by low slot mods, then it takes a mod on that gives it a 50% increase in speed but actually the 50% in speed will not be calculated on the 100 base as it should, but at the 200 active speed which means that instead of 50% of base which is (50) it gives 100+ in speed which is a 100% of base increse.
now it is at 300% of it's base and now it sets on a mwd that gives 600% + in speed(which should again be of base speed making it go 600+50=650m/s in all) instead it is given on the active speed of 300*6 = 1900m/s.
etc

this kind of insain and VERY unrealistic upstacking is the course of the main speed problem in the game

Ellaine TashMurkon
CBC Interstellar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2007.08.09 14:54:00 - [34]
 

Its frictionless space, being large and fast is no problem. Battleships are slower then frigates only for balance reasons, not because of any realism.
MWD is using micro warp jumps. X times per second, it moves object via hyperspace in microscopic warp jumps. It probably just cannot be miniaturised.

tikinish
Posted - 2007.08.10 18:31:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon
Its frictionless space, being large and fast is no problem. Battleships are slower then frigates only for balance reasons, not because of any realism.
MWD is using micro warp jumps. X times per second, it moves object via hyperspace in microscopic warp jumps. It probably just cannot be miniaturised.


actually it would take alot longer to asccelerate a big object in space compared to a small, that is why there is a speed difference and the agile of the ship have the same effect.

even if it can't be miniature made, then it should be possible just to have one mounted and then using it so sendt object with, like stargate warp

well it is mainly because of balance i made this idea

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.08.10 23:39:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: James Lyrus on 10/08/2007 23:40:42
Originally by: Gotk
Originally by: tikinish
Originally by: Gotk
you complain about ships doing 20km/s (not at all useful in PvP) which have a mini-warp drive, an FTL drive, fitted and complain when basic fueled missiles do 6km/s,
also missiles do not need fixing they are fine as is.


you most be joking?`! is this your answer?

first of all missiles would have EVERYTHING that could possible be set on a ship to increase its speed.
secoundly any ship going faster then 6,6k will be immune to ANY type of missile, no matter what.
thirdly, missiles don't need fixing?! wtf?! do you even have the slightest idea about anything with missiles? or even the smallest idea about the pvp aspect of the game?
guess not, then please do not talk about things you have no idea about!

over and out



so torp ravens suck in gangs now? and my cruise missles with poor skills go faster than 6.6km/s, so no, any ship going 6.6km/s is not immune


Missile flight velocity is only one factor. Explosion velocity is also a consideration. Now, have a look at the explosion velocity of a cruise missile, and tell me how much damage you'd expect it to do to something doing 6km/sec?

However in general, I don't think missiles do too badly. Yes, you can't hurt a MWD 'ceptor with BS (or cruiser) weapons, but ... well, so what? A turret also has similar problems, albeit with slightly different constraints.

However, I do think that missiles should be 'fast enough' (rockets included) to catch up with ships of about the right size class.

Rockets in particular, have a velocity of 2250, and an explosion velocity of 2000. In practice this means that two ships of the right size to use rockets, are going to be travelling fast enough that rockets are severely hampered in their usability.

Light missiles, on the other hand, travel 3750. If you allow precisions, they have a higher explosion velocity too.

IMO missiles _do_ need a fix.

They need changing so the 'falloff' on explosion velocity isn't just a fixed 3000m/sec. As it is, that's just far too dominant in the ratio - 6km/sec of 'falloff' means it doesn't matter too much whether you have 100m/sec explosion velocity, or 1000.

I'd propose that AOE falloff should be something like 2x the explosion velocity.
Meaning that at the extreme (with max skills) a rocket's doing 2000m/sec explosion velocity, and 4000m/sec AOE falloff. Meaning the 'zero damage' point on the rocket (assuming it connects of course) is 12km/sec. But anything above 2km/sec is starting to see notable damage reductions.

At the top end though, you'll have torps, with 375m/sec explosoin velocity, and 750 AOE falloff. Meaning if you're doing 1875, the torps are doing nothing at all.

Of course, this number should be modified by the relevant skill.

Oh, and rockets could do with being about twice as fast. Having light missiles being that much faster is just a bit silly.

I also think that Guided missile precision should be turned into 'missile precision' and applied to everything. With resultant increases in explosion radius if necessary. It's just ... well, irritating really, having a skill that only affects 50% of the weapon types in the class (and lets face it, there's really not a lot of differentiation between guided and unguided missiles anyway)

Tinge Shade
Perkone
Posted - 2007.08.11 02:05:00 - [37]
 

While we are on the topic of fixing missiles, two things that bother me to no end.

The first, is when a missile doesn't reach its target. It blows up and does 0.0 damage. It would be nice if a Tech II variant of epically the long range Missiles (Torps and Cruise) would stop flying but sit in space for 30 seconds as proximity mines or have an AoE explosion that would affect those around where the missiles stop flying. After all if I fire a missile into Greater Baghadad I may or may not take out the building I was aiming for, but I'm going to hit everything around it.

Number Two can we please get rid of FoF missiles and make them any foe missiles. Please don't tell me that the Caldari by now haven't come up with some sort of friendly recognition program for their ships.


Eventy
Posted - 2007.08.11 03:58:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Eventy on 11/08/2007 03:58:34
Originally by: Aselus
I think considering missiles CAN'T miss... and all other gun types can... i think missile users are the last to be complaining


.... that is unless they have some valid complaint to redress; judging by the post above, I'd say there is a valid complaint here.

I think gun users are the last to be complaining about missile user complaints.

Cheers
Eventy

Buyerr
Posted - 2007.08.12 17:18:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: James Lyrus
Edited by: James Lyrus on 10/08/2007 23:40:42
Originally by: Gotk
Originally by: tikinish
Originally by: Gotk
you complain about ships doing 20km/s (not at all useful in PvP) which have a mini-warp drive, an FTL drive, fitted and complain when basic fueled missiles do 6km/s,
also missiles do not need fixing they are fine as is.


you most be joking?`! is this your answer?

first of all missiles would have EVERYTHING that could possible be set on a ship to increase its speed.
secoundly any ship going faster then 6,6k will be immune to ANY type of missile, no matter what.
thirdly, missiles don't need fixing?! wtf?! do you even have the slightest idea about anything with missiles? or even the smallest idea about the pvp aspect of the game?
guess not, then please do not talk about things you have no idea about!

over and out



so torp ravens suck in gangs now? and my cruise missles with poor skills go faster than 6.6km/s, so no, any ship going 6.6km/s is not immune


Missile flight velocity is only one factor. Explosion velocity is also a consideration. Now, have a look at the explosion velocity of a cruise missile, and tell me how much damage you'd expect it to do to something doing 6km/sec?

However in general, I don't think missiles do too badly. Yes, you can't hurt a MWD 'ceptor with BS (or cruiser) weapons, but ... well, so what? A turret also has similar problems, albeit with slightly different constraints.

However, I do think that missiles should be 'fast enough' (rockets included) to catch up with ships of about the right size class.

Rockets in particular, have a velocity of 2250, and an explosion velocity of 2000. In practice this means that two ships of the right size to use rockets, are going to be travelling fast enough that rockets are severely hampered in their usability.

Light missiles, on the other hand, travel 3750. If you allow precisions, they have a higher explosion velocity too.

IMO missiles _do_ need a fix.

They need changing so the 'falloff' on explosion velocity isn't just a fixed 3000m/sec. As it is, that's just far too dominant in the ratio - 6km/sec of 'falloff' means it doesn't matter too much whether you have 100m/sec explosion velocity, or 1000.

I'd propose that AOE falloff should be something like 2x the explosion velocity.
Meaning that at the extreme (with max skills) a rocket's doing 2000m/sec explosion velocity, and 4000m/sec AOE falloff. Meaning the 'zero damage' point on the rocket (assuming it connects of course) is 12km/sec. But anything above 2km/sec is starting to see notable damage reductions.

At the top end though, you'll have torps, with 375m/sec explosoin velocity, and 750 AOE falloff. Meaning if you're doing 1875, the torps are doing nothing at all.

Of course, this number should be modified by the relevant skill.

Oh, and rockets could do with being about twice as fast. Having light missiles being that much faster is just a bit silly.

I also think that Guided missile precision should be turned into 'missile precision' and applied to everything. With resultant increases in explosion radius if necessary. It's just ... well, irritating really, having a skill that only affects 50% of the weapon types in the class (and lets face it, there's really not a lot of differentiation between guided and unguided missiles anyway)


hmm well it think the point is not to hurt ceptors, but to actually hit bs's and cruisers set to speed setups.
and more importent to be able to hit anything within a reasonable time limit, making missiles usefull in pvp

CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World
Posted - 2007.08.15 18:01:00 - [40]
 

would be a nice change and some balance between cruiser t2 ammo and torp t2 ammo would be nice..
and the t1 for that matter.

Major Stallion
The Money Shot Inc.
Posted - 2007.08.15 19:15:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: tikinish
stuff


ROFLMAO. you want a missile to travel upwards of 10km/s because you dont want to train something other than missiles for pvp?

Im caldari and all of my training as far as ammo goes is in missiles. I understand the fact that my missiles wont hit something moving faster than the missile is. Its a fair tradeoff imo. Something moves too fast for ANY gun and it wont hit.

I've had the times where an inty orbits me while i watch my missiles sit there and chase the inty for a few seconds only to see the inty outrun my missiles. Sure i get upset about it, but i deal with it. Caldari arent meant to hit the fast stuff...ever.

Tovarishch
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2007.08.15 19:28:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Tovarishch on 15/08/2007 19:28:15

Originally by: Major Stallion
Originally by: tikinish
stuff


ROFLMAO. you want a missile to travel upwards of 10km/s because you dont want to train something other than missiles for pvp?

Im caldari and all of my training as far as ammo goes is in missiles. I understand the fact that my missiles wont hit something moving faster than the missile is. Its a fair tradeoff imo. Something moves too fast for ANY gun and it wont hit.

I've had the times where an inty orbits me while i watch my missiles sit there and chase the inty for a few seconds only to see the inty outrun my missiles. Sure i get upset about it, but i deal with it. Caldari arent meant to hit the fast stuff...ever.



Read this thread.

From my perspective it's not about wanting to hit fast ships... it's about range bonuses being put on missile ships while missiles are slow to travel to their targets.

The Cerb is a great example. Every single bonus on the ship makes it an ideal long-range missile platform. What's the point of such a concept when other snipers will do better DPS from range instantaneously... and close range ships will do more DPS while being faster, more agile, and less massive?

The problem with missiles is their slow velocity.

Major Stallion
The Money Shot Inc.
Posted - 2007.08.15 19:35:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Tovarishch
Edited by: Tovarishch on 15/08/2007 19:28:15

Originally by: Major Stallion
Originally by: tikinish
stuff


ROFLMAO. you want a missile to travel upwards of 10km/s because you dont want to train something other than missiles for pvp?

Im caldari and all of my training as far as ammo goes is in missiles. I understand the fact that my missiles wont hit something moving faster than the missile is. Its a fair tradeoff imo. Something moves too fast for ANY gun and it wont hit.

I've had the times where an inty orbits me while i watch my missiles sit there and chase the inty for a few seconds only to see the inty outrun my missiles. Sure i get upset about it, but i deal with it. Caldari arent meant to hit the fast stuff...ever.



Read this thread.

From my perspective it's not about wanting to hit fast ships... it's about range bonuses being put on missile ships while missiles are slow to travel to their targets.

The Cerb is a great example. Every single bonus on the ship makes it an ideal long-range missile platform. What's the point of such a concept when other snipers will do better DPS from range instantaneously... and close range ships will do more DPS while being faster, more agile, and less massive?

The problem with missiles is their slow velocity.




I understand the point being made about wanting to be a long range ship and its a fair one. Your point about the cerberus is a very valid one, indeed. It does boggle me why i can lock a target from 92km away in mine. I've adapted the rule of thumb when it comes to gang/fleet pvp. As a missile user, i dont bother with hitting the primary, i just start plowing away on the secondary. Seeing as making missiles go exponentially faster probably would be insane, i cant see a change to missiles any time soon. And if there is one, i'd be very shocked.

Tovarishch
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2007.08.15 19:42:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Major Stallion

I understand the point being made about wanting to be a long range ship and its a fair one. Your point about the cerberus is a very valid one, indeed. It does boggle me why i can lock a target from 92km away in mine. I've adapted the rule of thumb when it comes to gang/fleet pvp. As a missile user, i dont bother with hitting the primary, i just start plowing away on the secondary. Seeing as making missiles go exponentially faster probably would be insane, i cant see a change to missiles any time soon. And if there is one, i'd be very shocked.


Exponentially faster? Huh? Three times faster is not even CLOSE to expontentially faster. Read the thread I posted. It would do nothing to improve missiles in PVE... and it would solve their problems in PVP.

To be honest, I'll be shocked if missiles aren't changed soon. Flight time is a stupid handicap... and is crippling in PVP.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2007.08.15 20:10:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 15/08/2007 20:32:56
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 15/08/2007 20:31:26

Originally by: tikinish

soo i was reading the forum and stumpled over this fact...

cruise - 3750 m/s
heavy - 3750 m/s
light - 3750 m/s
rockets - 3250 m/s
hams - 2250 m/s
torp - 1250 m/s

___________________________________________
first of some facts:
fastest missile known right now is a russian missile
here
quot:"had to be the fastest thing man has ever seen."
which have a speed of:
3 218.688 m / s

and fastest rocket (as a plain type):

2 279.943 m / s
here

this means that the fastest we humans have been able to send anything with the space to carry a human inside is:

2 279.943 m / s
while we have missiles going up to:
3 218.688 m / s

which means that there is a 40% increase from our fastest moving object with a person to our fastest moving missile.

know we are in eve and everything have evolved but still, we see ships beeing able to go up to a speed of 20.000 m/s while missiles are stuck at 6500 m/s.
what just happened?!



Seeing as this therad is still aroun, a bit more data

from tikinish links

Fastest missile know to man: 10.800 miles hour ; 1 mile = 1.609 meters, so it is 17.377.200 meters/hour or 4287 m/s

fastest rockets mach 6,7 - 1 mach = 340,3 m/s, so the rocket speed is 2.280,1 m/s

Curiosely Very Happy both number are pretty consistent with EVE numbers.

Minimum speed to reach orbit = escape velocity 11,2 Km/second so 11.200 m/s, so all the space rocket reach higher speeds tht what he mentioned by a fair streach, and that is against Earth gravity, i.e. all the currently build space ships reach speed abov those of his "fastest missile or rocket".

That sayd, EVE missiles and rockets cold be better with a acceleration value instead of a fixed speed, so they will get faster every second they have thrust instead of keeping the same speed at all ranges.

The possible problem is that an acceleration instead of fixed speed require more calculations, so more CPU power.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2007.08.15 20:18:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: tikinish
Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon
Its frictionless space, being large and fast is no problem. Battleships are slower then frigates only for balance reasons, not because of any realism.
MWD is using micro warp jumps. X times per second, it moves object via hyperspace in microscopic warp jumps. It probably just cannot be miniaturised.


actually it would take alot longer to asccelerate a big object in space compared to a small, that is why there is a speed difference and the agile of the ship have the same effect.

even if it can't be miniature made, then it should be possible just to have one mounted and then using it so sendt object with, like stargate warp

well it is mainly because of balance i made this idea


Acceleration is only a function of thrust against mass.

A big ship can easily have a better thrust/mass proportion than a smaller ship, so getting a better capacity of acceleration/deceleration.

Belce
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.08.21 03:12:00 - [47]
 

If the trouble with missles is that there is no target when they arrive in a multi ship encounter, would it not make sense to have those missles fire against the next target in the encounter instead of chasing wrecks?

Eon Drake
Caldari
Dragon Corporation
Posted - 2007.09.11 03:54:00 - [48]
 

More "missile ideas" here.

Cheers.

i take
Posted - 2007.09.12 15:53:00 - [49]
 

well a little bump to get some thoughts on this

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2007.09.12 18:31:00 - [50]
 

Game Balance > Reality

That's pretty much all there is to say.

If at all I'd rather limit the speed of ships than increasing missile velocity.
Why? Because extreme speeds are a result of stacking bonuses and game 'evolution', which often actually means nothing more than 'bigger, higher, faster'.
So the current speeds quite probably weren't intended, while the current missile speeds were.
I'd always go with original concepts.

TBiggest
Posted - 2007.10.08 13:28:00 - [51]
 

I reckon missiles are fine the way they are.

People say missiles are problematic for pvp, yet those ppl simply dont know what their on about.

If any of you read the tournament coverage 2007, ull see caldari aas being one of the most popular choices, with manticores, drakes and caracals used to great effect. They all use missiles, u say they suck??

Just because they take time to hit and therefore, then enmy can run awya means nothing, its actually an adv, if the enemy runs, u dont lose. If u have a tackler to stop them running and a painter, they do lose :P. Oh and if their too fast and hard to hit due to sig etc, chances are they cant hurt you neway, ur drakes tank, will laugh at an inty's futile dps. Im sick of people bagging caldari, and missiles, when they are clearly excellent for pvp.

Oh and btw, it was amarr and minmatar ships that were least popular in the tournaments, not caldari!

(missiles ftw)

Buyerr
Posted - 2007.10.08 17:31:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: TBiggest
I reckon missiles are fine the way they are.

People say missiles are problematic for pvp, yet those ppl simply dont know what their on about.

If any of you read the tournament coverage 2007, ull see caldari aas being one of the most popular choices, with manticores, drakes and caracals used to great effect. They all use missiles, u say they suck??

Just because they take time to hit and therefore, then enmy can run awya means nothing, its actually an adv, if the enemy runs, u dont lose. If u have a tackler to stop them running and a painter, they do lose :P. Oh and if their too fast and hard to hit due to sig etc, chances are they cant hurt you neway, ur drakes tank, will laugh at an inty's futile dps. Im sick of people bagging caldari, and missiles, when they are clearly excellent for pvp.

Oh and btw, it was amarr and minmatar ships that were least popular in the tournaments, not caldari!

(missiles ftw)



wow-- this is an old one from my alt ^^

well you clearly have no clue what your talking about, they where only used in the tournament because it was a setup match so you new where they would be, how many and with what "power" so to speak.
how many ravens did you see in there that was doing a good job?! ;)

stealth bombers like you saw them in the tournament would have been ****d by battleships in a 0.0 right...

you can't compare the 0.0 pvp with a set up tournament

ZerKar
Caldari
Zen'Tar
Posted - 2007.10.08 21:15:00 - [53]
 

Missile's being able to be outran by a ship is rather silly except at distance. If a ship is far away when you fire and takes off going very fast in another direction away from the missile the missile is likely to run dry on fuel before reaching its target but other than that there is no reason why it should fail to hit. I think Defender Missiles should be made more powerful and effective however, to give a good balancing feature or possibly even include a missile guidance jammer for the mid slots to make them more likely to miss.

However, there is a notable problem with missiles and DPS is a big part of it.

Me and one of my Corp Mate went toe to toe with some Serpentis BC's both the same type and began firing at the same time. I was hitting with 2 Thermal M shots and 2 Explosive M shots form my artillery while he was firing 2 EMP Heavies and 5 Explosive Heavies at his target. I was a bit closer to my target and I dusted it in half the time. We are relatively the same age maybe a week difference but he was using WAY more shots than I was and I blew away the BC long before his missiles could. Knowing that Missiles are increadibly devistating and should pack a LOT more punch as far as hole size in an opposing ship than my tiny little artillery shells I would think he would have clearly beaten me to the kill. Making Missiles faster would increase their DPS at range making them a little more useful because right now firing from range is what they are good for but it cannot kill a darned thing because there is SO much time between impacts.

However, I believe there likely needs to be other more serious changes to missiles to really make them effective, a Speed boost would certainly help a lot, but something else too perhaps though I am not sure Damage is really the main issue but right now they are pretty well worthless junk in PvP because by the time your Missiles arrive your target has killed you or is already dead from someone using guns.

TBiggest
Posted - 2007.10.09 11:24:00 - [54]
 

Ahh,

So, all the caracals, drakes etc were used in the tournaments simply becoz ppl knew what they were up against? well, so if they didnt know, theyd sinply change all their ships around and run away from caldari and missile setups??? Oh and i never said raven, who said raven? now you r making stuff up, raven isnt exactly a pvp god, and im not gonna make it out that way, im just saying ppl who reckon missiles/caldari are no good for pvp shld stop smoking such high grade stuff.

Unless of course, ccp, when making the game, thought "hmm, we need a 4th faction guys....I know, lets make one thats crap at pvp, thats a real good idea!" U forget that ne kind of dmg can be used with missiles, nothing can stop them except defenders (which are kinda unpopular neway) and ne1 fast enough to give u flight time problems, isnt really gonna be a threat unless in fleet warfare, and u wldnt be targeting them neway, ud be packing all ur missile punch into the slowest target u can find.

Oh and about the bs rating thing zerkar, cld u tell me the setup u guys had? coz if u had sole dmg mods and he was using primarily tank, of course ur gonna kill quicker, but remmeber that if numbers were too great, hell last longer with tank mods, one kill each is not enough to properly comapare characters ;)

Jellygoop
Caldari
Band of Brothermans
Posted - 2007.10.09 17:27:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Tovarishch
Originally by: tikinish

but i think it is a really bad idea to futher dps nerf the lowest dps race in game


Mistating the truth is not going to help your cause. Be honest when addressing a problem. If you aren't it'll simply ruin your credibility.

Originally by: tikinish
besides giving them a "choice of dmg" would destroy the fine balance of the ships...


Caldari already have "choice of dmg". It does little to nothing for PVP... and is everything in the world in PVE. Reread my thread.

Originally by: tikinish
the speed does nothing to the dps


And then you go on to contradict yourself at the end of the paragraph by saying...

Originally by: tikinish
the only unbalance in them is that it takes 80 secounds for a torp to hit a target far away while it instantly hits with a turret


DPS is a measure of time. Flight time can very much affect DPS.



The DPS would not change, although the missile is moving faster, you are not making the reload time for the next missile faster.

Plekto
Freedom United Consolidations - Inter Terrestrial
United For 0rder
Posted - 2007.10.10 00:06:00 - [56]
 

Sounds like a very good idea.

Think of it - A missile's built-in afterburner or MWD would only have to last 5-6 seconds before it burned itself out. The modern equivalent is an Indy 500 car engine versus your car's. Same displacement, but one is tweaked to last one race of 500 miles. The other 200K miles. When you build a missile, it's all one big engine with a bomb strapped to it. Thousands of Gs in forces are moot, crew survivability isn't a factor, and reusing any part of it? As if. Ten seconds of pure speed and nothing else matters.

???SOLUTION???

How about this? T1 missiles are as normal. T2 are t1 in every way(damage goes DOWN) - but the built in AB is replaced with a MWD(explains the increase in cost). Speed goes up by 5x.

That's very fair, IMO. 2500 isk+ a shot, no more damage than t1, but they catch *anything*(18,750). Torps of course would be ~6K/sec, slower but still quite useable vs larger ships. Skills of course would modify this so you could maybe even catch that silly inty.

SirMoric
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2007.10.10 04:59:00 - [57]
 

With a bit of guidance, missiles will intercept the target, not just follow it.

That means a missile will calculate where the target is gonna be in the time it takes for the missile to reach it's path the fastest way. Thereby the missile would also calculate a detonation in front of the target and leaving a burst of schrapnels in front of the target to fly through and making explosion velocity even deadlier due to the combined speed of the target and explosion.

Only drawback is you can't hit targets flying away, only towards you.

Isn't such a guidance invented in the world of EVE? Could it be? Would make up for lack of speed, but still keep some of the speedtankers abilities.

rgds

ZerKar
Caldari
Zen'Tar
Posted - 2007.10.10 06:17:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: TBiggest
Ahh,

So, all the caracals, drakes etc were used in the tournaments simply becoz ppl knew what they were up against? well, so if they didnt know, theyd sinply change all their ships around and run away from caldari and missile setups??? Oh and i never said raven, who said raven? now you r making stuff up, raven isnt exactly a pvp god, and im not gonna make it out that way, im just saying ppl who reckon missiles/caldari are no good for pvp shld stop smoking such high grade stuff.

Unless of course, ccp, when making the game, thought "hmm, we need a 4th faction guys....I know, lets make one thats crap at pvp, thats a real good idea!" U forget that ne kind of dmg can be used with missiles, nothing can stop them except defenders (which are kinda unpopular neway) and ne1 fast enough to give u flight time problems, isnt really gonna be a threat unless in fleet warfare, and u wldnt be targeting them neway, ud be packing all ur missile punch into the slowest target u can find.

Oh and about the bs rating thing zerkar, cld u tell me the setup u guys had? coz if u had sole dmg mods and he was using primarily tank, of course ur gonna kill quicker, but remmeber that if numbers were too great, hell last longer with tank mods, one kill each is not enough to properly comapare characters ;)


LOL He was using a damage mod, I wasn't that's the laughable thing. He had a fine Ballistic Control all I use is a Target Painter which in that case was pointless. As for numbers, My Hurricane has proven every bit as good at handling numbers as his Drake because I can outrun them when I need to and dust them far faster. Dead ships don't hurt you. Caldari are not Gods of PVE they are just easier if you are lazy and they really are pathetic in PvP with a few shining exceptions. (none of their missile scows being those)

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2007.10.10 06:45:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 10/10/2007 06:46:11
Originally by: ZerKar
Originally by: TBiggest
Ahh,

So, all the caracals, drakes etc were used in the tournaments simply becoz ppl knew what they were up against? well, so if they didnt know, theyd sinply change all their ships around and run away from caldari and missile setups??? Oh and i never said raven, who said raven? now you r making stuff up, raven isnt exactly a pvp god, and im not gonna make it out that way, im just saying ppl who reckon missiles/caldari are no good for pvp shld stop smoking such high grade stuff.

Unless of course, ccp, when making the game, thought "hmm, we need a 4th faction guys....I know, lets make one thats crap at pvp, thats a real good idea!" U forget that ne kind of dmg can be used with missiles, nothing can stop them except defenders (which are kinda unpopular neway) and ne1 fast enough to give u flight time problems, isnt really gonna be a threat unless in fleet warfare, and u wldnt be targeting them neway, ud be packing all ur missile punch into the slowest target u can find.

Oh and about the bs rating thing zerkar, cld u tell me the setup u guys had? coz if u had sole dmg mods and he was using primarily tank, of course ur gonna kill quicker, but remmeber that if numbers were too great, hell last longer with tank mods, one kill each is not enough to properly comapare characters ;)


LOL He was using a damage mod, I wasn't that's the laughable thing. He had a fine Ballistic Control all I use is a Target Painter which in that case was pointless. As for numbers, My Hurricane has proven every bit as good at handling numbers as his Drake because I can outrun them when I need to and dust them far faster. Dead ships don't hurt you. Caldari are not Gods of PVE they are just easier if you are lazy and they really are pathetic in PvP with a few shining exceptions. (none of their missile scows being those)



Ever looked the ship bonus and resistences?

1) Your friend was using missiles without any ship bonus (drake only get the bonus on kinteic) - you where using a ship with a bonus on all the medium projectiles (up to 25% damage increase)

2) serpentis are vulnerable to Thermal and Kinetic and as armor tankers highly resistant to EM.
So half of your friend damage was of the kind with better resistence while half of your damage was the best against your targets.

That give you about 1.25*.07= 0.875 of your theorical base damage against the target
your friend 1*(1/2*0.4+1/2*.7)=0.55 of his theorical base damage.

A bit of a difference, don't you think?



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