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Quilan Masaq
Caldari
Combat Systems
Posted - 2007.07.16 08:01:00 - [1]
 

I'm at a crossroads in my training.

I currently fly a standard Raven using Cruise/Seige launchers and a pretty standard T2 setup.

I am able to do any Lv4 thrown at me. The only thing slowing me down is DPS, Ship speed (between gates), and sometimes having to kite around to reduce damage.

Now, do I:

a) Get Caldari BS V, and T2 Cruise and finish off my Energy and Shield skills. Then get that CNR (have about 500mil saved up at the minute).

or

b) Get working towards a Command Ship, T2 Heavy Missiles, finish off my Shield skills. Then get a Nighthawk and pimp it out with all that spare cash i'll have (over getting a CNR).


I keep changing my mind between which I want. Both have plus and minus points. Both take about the same length of time to train to a reasonable level (i'm looking at about 90-100days for either BSV+T2 Cruise+Shield, or Command Ships IV+T2 Heavy+Shield).

From what I can see the + and - are like this:

CNR:

+More DPS than a Raven/Nighthawk
+Ability to field both Medium/Light Drones
-Active Tank - Not Amazing without Faction Gear.
-Slow
-Expensive

Nighthawk:

+Passive Tank - Cheap to fit with T2 gear and Tanks as well as (or close to) a faction fitted Raven.
+Faster/More Agile
+Lower Sig Radius
-DPS when T2 fitted with support skills at IV is comparable to my current standard Raven
-Can only use a set of Light Drones


(Input on other +tives -tives welcome!)


So its either lots of training for more DPS >> Faster mission running large ISK outlay, or lots of training for same DPS >> Cheap ISK AFK Tank.


Which would you go for and why? I need to decide on one or the other before my brain implodes. Shocked

VaderDSL
Invicta.
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2007.07.16 08:06:00 - [2]
 

Keep on the battleship road while maxing your support skills imo and maybe team up with someone/corp, missions are more fun when you have 5 people in command ship/bs doing them Smile

Quilan Masaq
Caldari
Combat Systems
Posted - 2007.07.16 08:15:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: VaderDSL
Keep on the battleship road while maxing your support skills imo and maybe team up with someone/corp, missions are more fun when you have 5 people in command ship/bs doing them Smile


Indeed, I usually run missions with my Wife who flys a Domi.

I take out the big stuff and work down she handles the frigs and cruisers and works up (quite effective!).

Wellsy
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.07.16 09:17:00 - [4]
 

NightHawk wins for me. Has an awesome tank, i use it to mission run on all the lvl4's and AFAIC its the best ship for doing missions. fit with T2 heavies with good skills you can get an ROF of less than 5 secs with 1-2 ballistics. Get yourself a gist b Large shield booster. with that baby I can perma run the boost and cap sits at around 45-50% including the active hardeners. TBH taking down a bs isnt a problem. hits from 220-290 is great with t1 missiles hiting every 1/2 second, nothing can servive :)

Plave Okice
Krazny Oktyabr Revolyutsiya
Yezhovshchina
Posted - 2007.07.16 09:18:00 - [5]
 

Carebear ugh

Depends what your long term aim is dude, if you want to stick with missions then the CNR is probably the way forward, if you're still just earning and skilling in preperation for moving out to 0.0 and PvP then get cruiser V and T2 heavies done, then you can be in the Cerberus while still training for Nighthawk, also Recons will be easy to train from there and any of those can give you much more fun in PvP than a T2 Raven or CNR.

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2007.07.16 09:23:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Quilan Masaq
I'm at a crossroads in my training.

I currently fly a standard Raven using Cruise/Seige launchers and a pretty standard T2 setup.

I am able to do any Lv4 thrown at me. The only thing slowing me down is DPS, Ship speed (between gates), and sometimes having to kite around to reduce damage.

Now, do I:

a) Get Caldari BS V, and T2 Cruise and finish off my Energy and Shield skills. Then get that CNR (have about 500mil saved up at the minute).

or

b) Get working towards a Command Ship, T2 Heavy Missiles, finish off my Shield skills. Then get a Nighthawk and pimp it out with all that spare cash i'll have (over getting a CNR).


I keep changing my mind between which I want. Both have plus and minus points. Both take about the same length of time to train to a reasonable level (i'm looking at about 90-100days for either BSV+T2 Cruise+Shield, or Command Ships IV+T2 Heavy+Shield).

From what I can see the + and - are like this:

CNR:

+More DPS than a Raven/Nighthawk
+Ability to field both Medium/Light Drones
-Active Tank - Not Amazing without Faction Gear.
-Slow
-Expensive

Nighthawk:

+Passive Tank - Cheap to fit with T2 gear and Tanks as well as (or close to) a faction fitted Raven.
+Faster/More Agile
+Lower Sig Radius
-DPS when T2 fitted with support skills at IV is comparable to my current standard Raven
-Can only use a set of Light Drones


(Input on other +tives -tives welcome!)


So its either lots of training for more DPS >> Faster mission running large ISK outlay, or lots of training for same DPS >> Cheap ISK AFK Tank.


Which would you go for and why? I need to decide on one or the other before my brain implodes. Shocked


You know, there is absolutely no need for BS 5 when you fly a CNR. I do, and missions die in no time, and I have zero intention of training Caldari BS 5 anytime soon.

If you really want to improve your performance, you should go for CNR, but with Siege launchers. So get Siege 5, not cruise 5, and start hauling in the cash for the CNR and faction launchers/tank. Though I guess the price hike in Gist Boosters can be a real showstopper these days :(

The only reason to go for Nighthawk over CNR is if you want to run your missions more or less afk and without a care in the world.

Quilan Masaq
Caldari
Combat Systems
Posted - 2007.07.16 09:47:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Quilan Masaq on 16/07/2007 09:49:55
Originally by: Leandro Salazar

You know, there is absolutely no need for BS 5 when you fly a CNR. I do, and missions die in no time, and I have zero intention of training Caldari BS 5 anytime soon.

If you really want to improve your performance, you should go for CNR, but with Siege launchers. So get Siege 5, not cruise 5, and start hauling in the cash for the CNR and faction launchers/tank. Though I guess the price hike in Gist Boosters can be a real showstopper these days :(

The only reason to go for Nighthawk over CNR is if you want to run your missions more or less afk and without a care in the world.


Oh yes, I no there is no need, but I have some time away from the game in the next month or so, so I need a ~30day skill to tide me over, so thats either Battleship V, or Battlecruiser V Smile

If it wasn't for the need of a nice long skill I probably wouldn't bother with BS V for the Raven.

I suppose I could do Torps V but thats only 20 or so days, so i'd be loosing out on 5-10+ days training time... hmmm...

As for the Cruise/Seige debate, I too prefer Torps, but fitting T2 Seige launchers seems to be a total arse, especially 7 of them! Though I suppose if I drop more cash on the ship and go for Faction Siege Launchers instead, fitting cost would be less than Arby T1's and still have higher DPS than T2... hmmmm...

I'll have to have annother fiddle about in Quickfit and see what I can come up with.

I think I am definatly leaning more towards the CNR, but as you say its the vast sums of ISK required to make it 'uber' that are off putting.

I have about 500mil ISK in cash, I also have a rigged Raven and a rigged Phoon to sell, so in theory I can afford a CNR now (seen em for 650mil in Jita).

I think you are right about the Seige+CNR though, especially as I play with a Domi pilot who kills the smaller stuff anyway.

Hmmm... now you've got me wanting to do Torps V instead of Battleship V...

Curse you! More options! Razz

Boonaki
Caldari
Focused Annihilation
Detrimental Imperative
Posted - 2007.07.16 09:51:00 - [8]
 


you should get a fraction fitted turrent caldare scorpian to kill rouge drones.

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2007.07.16 10:02:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Boonaki

you should get a fraction fitted turrent caldare scorpian to kill rouge drones.


It's Calderi, not Caldare Wink

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.07.16 10:30:00 - [10]
 

Didn't you get the memo ? It's CalAdari ! (guilty as charged, occasionally).

A T2 Cruise Raven is pretty much the same DPS overall as a T2 heavies Nighthawk in an actual L4 mission, but yeah, a Cruise CNR is about 20%-30% higher actual DPS vs large ships (at least 16.6% raw missile DPS from extra launcher, more effective due to defenders... 50% more drone damage for med drones instead of light drones, etc)... also, Cruise have much higher range (not that you'd really need it, 70-ish km with heavies and average skills is enough most of the time).
If you fly a Raven in missions, you really, really want to fit siege instead of cruise. Really.

The NH however shines in two things compared to a CNR : cost effectiveness (passive shield tanks are DIRT CHEAP, and the NH packs a nasty passive tank... also, there's the whole "insurability" issue, with NH you lose 250 mil, with CNR you lose roughly double if you get popped, and that's before accounting for the modules themselves, which tend to run a lot more on the expensive side on a Raven variant) and small ship dispatching (which, needless to say, the NH does a bang-up job at killing them off, heavies with extra precision bonus compared to cruise, not even talking about siege... it's just YUMMY for killing off webers/scramblers, and the light drones you just have to fit make this one even easier as it already is).

While faction boosters are not a necessity on any mission Raven, they are highly convenient (easier permatanking, easier siege fiting), however the pricetag is highly prohibitive (Gist C-type XL goes for over 1 bil, which is "ewwww").
Of course, this all assumes you're (semi-)passive shield-tanking the NH, and not active-tanking it.
The nice T2 resists make for an even easier "omnitank" fiting (EM, invul, invul) suitable for just about any mission, you hardly ever have to change hardners in a mission NH, which is especially helpful if you ever get in a PvP situation.
You can buy and fully fit a NH for the price of a "blank" CNR easily.


All things considered, I'd personally go for the Nighthawk rather than a CNR.

But then again, I'm a sucker for cost-effectiveness and versatility rather than sheer throughput, and in that latter area, the CNR is the undisputed master.
So if you're planning to do massive amounts of L4 highsec mission-running, you'd probably be much better off with a CNR.

Rilder
Caldari
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.07.16 11:36:00 - [11]
 

Fly a Nighhawk, it looks better, screw the fugly looking Navy Raven, plus every carebear and his pirating alt flys a Navy Raven.

Kaynard Stormwalker
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.07.16 13:56:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Didn't you get the memo ? It's CalAdari ! (guilty as charged, occasionally).

A T2 Cruise Raven is pretty much the same DPS overall as a T2 heavies Nighthawk in an actual L4 mission, but yeah, a Cruise CNR is about 20%-30% higher actual DPS vs large ships (at least 16.6% raw missile DPS from extra launcher, more effective due to defenders... 50% more drone damage for med drones instead of light drones, etc)... also, Cruise have much higher range (not that you'd really need it, 70-ish km with heavies and average skills is enough most of the time).
If you fly a Raven in missions, you really, really want to fit siege instead of cruise. Really.

The NH however shines in two things compared to a CNR : cost effectiveness (passive shield tanks are DIRT CHEAP, and the NH packs a nasty passive tank... also, there's the whole "insurability" issue, with NH you lose 250 mil, with CNR you lose roughly double if you get popped, and that's before accounting for the modules themselves, which tend to run a lot more on the expensive side on a Raven variant) and small ship dispatching (which, needless to say, the NH does a bang-up job at killing them off, heavies with extra precision bonus compared to cruise, not even talking about siege... it's just YUMMY for killing off webers/scramblers, and the light drones you just have to fit make this one even easier as it already is).

While faction boosters are not a necessity on any mission Raven, they are highly convenient (easier permatanking, easier siege fiting), however the pricetag is highly prohibitive (Gist C-type XL goes for over 1 bil, which is "ewwww").
Of course, this all assumes you're (semi-)passive shield-tanking the NH, and not active-tanking it.
The nice T2 resists make for an even easier "omnitank" fiting (EM, invul, invul) suitable for just about any mission, you hardly ever have to change hardners in a mission NH, which is especially helpful if you ever get in a PvP situation.
You can buy and fully fit a NH for the price of a "blank" CNR easily.


All things considered, I'd personally go for the Nighthawk rather than a CNR.

But then again, I'm a sucker for cost-effectiveness and versatility rather than sheer throughput, and in that latter area, the CNR is the undisputed master.
So if you're planning to do massive amounts of L4 highsec mission-running, you'd probably be much better off with a CNR.


QFT =P

I'd just go with NH for it's tank alone. I had a harder time tanking AE Bonus with a normal raven and I can just afk through it with an NH, so that sums it up.

Plus, nothing beats fitting an AB + awesome passive tank. Raven can't do that !
It's great what you can fit an NH with.


 

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