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Khan Dhu
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.06.23 09:44:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Khan Dhu on 23/06/2007 13:26:29
Seriously - these need some more thought. I'm not even talking about their construction...

But they're actually less useful than Heavy Drones.

Points:

1. T2 sentries have the same tracking as their T1 counterparts, a change over all other T1 combat drones and their T2 variants.

2. T2 sentries put out 50HP per shot at the slightly better multiplier, but their heavy drone counterparts shoot twice in the same amount of time for 24hp, negating the extra damage after you factor in that T2 sentries don't require Racial Drone Specialization, so heavies get the nod in an extra 8% damage conferred by having Level IV in that skill.

3. This might be kind of a "duh" point, but heavies are mobile, whereas sentries are not - all the more reason the tracking needs to be beefed up from T1 to T2. I'm talking on the same percentages used from going from T1 heavies to T2 heavies - the percentage - not giving T2 sentries the tracking of mobile drones.

4. Considering the current drones are all but completely unprofitable to invent, a lot of us were looking forward to these as the production is a level playing field. These aren't even really worth making.

Only two boosts would be needed to actually make these viable for use over current heavies - boost the T2 sentry damage to 75hp over the normal 50hp, and give them a slight tracking bonus on par with the other drones' increases from T1 to T2. Doubling the current optimal range bonuses wouldn't hurt, either.

Another optional boost would be to make them require Racial Drone Operation IV for that extra 8% boost, since anyone willing to train Sentry Drone Operation to V in the first place probably already has them trained.

Kanthras
Gallente
Balsarferskratchin Inc
Axiom Empire
Posted - 2007.06.23 09:50:00 - [2]
 

I don't think they're supposed to have the same kind of damage output and tracking as Heavy Drones.. They're a droneboat's long range weapons. And railguns have worse tracking and DPS compared to blasters too, right?

Khan Dhu
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.06.23 09:54:00 - [3]
 

The point is sentry drones should outdamage heavies. They're like drones in siege mode/mini sentry guns, and given the current state of T2 sentries they're really just taking up database space.

I know they were sort of a "we're putting these in too" last-minute mention/addition, but geeze. While they're still contemplating balance passes, these things really should (at least) be brought on par with T2 heavies.

Kanthras
Gallente
Balsarferskratchin Inc
Axiom Empire
Posted - 2007.06.23 10:05:00 - [4]
 

Err.. since when are sentry drones a "mini-siege-mode"? I've never ever heard of that. You can scoop 'em up and leave any time you like. I really don't think they should do the same DPS as T2 heavies.

Khan Dhu
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.06.23 10:09:00 - [5]
 

I hardly think it was the Dev's intent to put something new in that's effectively worthless.

Just because you don't care about it/don't feel like training Sentry V doesn't make it a moot point.

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2007.06.23 10:12:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Khan Dhu
Only two boosts would be needed to actually make these viable for use over current heavies


Originally by: Khan Dhu
The point is sentry drones should outdamage heavies. They're like drones in siege mode/mini sentry guns, and given the current state of T2 sentries they're really just taking up database space.


It is just you totally missing the point of sentry drones. They are not supposed to be used OVER heavy drones, they are supposed to be used instead of them in a different tactical situation. They are not siege mode drones, they are long range drones. And all long range weapons do a little (Lasers) to a lot (Arties) less damage than their short range counterparts as well, so all is fine here. Not that I would mind if they got the same tracking boost that normal T2 drones got over T1, but the lack of it hardly breaks them.

I am really looking forward to using them, the only beef I have is the awful sentry 5 skill req, but that is in line with other T2 skill reqs, so my displeasure is just personal bias due to laziness/wanting to use them asap.

Kanthras
Gallente
Balsarferskratchin Inc
Axiom Empire
Posted - 2007.06.23 10:13:00 - [7]
 

They're not useless, and I sure as hell care about them since I fly a Domi.
The new sentry drones are better than the T1 sentry drones, which I think were perfectly balanced with T1 Heavies. I think T2 sentries should not do as much damage as T2 heavies. The long range/low dmg vs short range/high dmg should apply to drones just as it does to guns and missiles.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.06.23 10:16:00 - [8]
 

The one thing I can fully agree on, and the thing I HOPE IT'S A BUG and not intentional, is the lack of requirement in (therefore also lack of damage bonus granted by) the drone specialisation skills.

Personally, it makes little difference for me as a vet Drake and only "newbie droner" pilot (L3 sentry, L1 heavy, L5 scout, L1/L2 in drone specs) wether to train T2 heavies or T2 sentries, but it would be really good to know WHICH one to train, as the advantages and disadvantages of each are ALMOST equal, overall.

For reasons I'll go into later, I would prefer sentries, but as said, if they don't get the damage bonus, I'll stick with what everybody else has already anyway, T2 heavies.

__

The tracking thing, well, it's a bit more complicated.

Sentries might not be mobile, but YOU are, so that means you can use them in two different ways (more on this later).
Also, unlike other drones, they don't waste time to travel from target to target, so overall DPS is slightly higher in time, even if sustained damage on one target usually isn't.

So, why is a tracking boost not quite as important for sentries as for other drones ?

For instance, one of the things I do in missions (with my fresh Dominix) is leave the gardes down, go away 10-15km from them, and watch how they obliterate "small stuff", in spite of the fact they wouldn't normally hit the orbiters.
Simply by the fact YOU moved away, that minimized the transversal the drones have to "beat" by their own tracking.
Problem here though is, when/if reinforcements arrives, your drones are TOAST if you don't get to them in time.
So, while very beneficial, you can't use this approach against a half-inteligent pilot, not easily anyway.

Also, sentries don't orbit, so they don't screw up their own hit quality by an increased orbit speed, like heavies do.
Basically, sentries don't NEED an increased tracking, although it would be nice to have.

Another thing that sentries let you do (but other drones won't let you) is actually be a drone SNIPER.
Yup, you can get that optimal range up to 150km or even beyond, and shoot that far without drone travel time.
Not only that you don't have your drones exposed for a long time, but you can instantly scoop them up and redeploy, for nearly invulnerable drones, practically.


Being imobile means they can act just like guns, practically invulnerable. But this strength is also their greatest weakness, especially in PvP situations... as you can't afford to move from the spot or else you'll see your drones killed. So, in PvP, heavy drones will remain the most used weapon anyway (especially since this means you can focus on other weapon systems too, not only on the drones, as sentries require your full attention), while sentry drones will mainly be used for "surprise" sniper fits as combat opener.
___

Bottom line, all they need is to have AT LEAST a "L1 <race> drone specialisation" skill level as prerequisite (or, at most L4), and also get the damage bonus from that skill.

Nothing else is really needed.

Khan Dhu
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.06.23 10:17:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Khan Dhu on 23/06/2007 10:21:59
Well, good luck with their long-range aspect - the Warden IIs with Drone Sharpshooting IV will give you an optimal of 72km with a 50% hit/miss falloff of 87km. Garde IIs will be 28.8km optimal with 34.8km being their 50%.

EDIT: Yes, I know about omnidirectional tracking links.

Scordite
Posted - 2007.06.23 10:22:00 - [10]
 

Keep in mind there are sentry drone damage rigs.. Which helps them quite a bit vs heavies.

Kanthras
Gallente
Balsarferskratchin Inc
Axiom Empire
Posted - 2007.06.23 10:23:00 - [11]
 

Use those drone optimal augmentor module thingies (forgot name).
You don't see sniper battleships without tracking comps/enhancers either, do you?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.06.23 10:24:00 - [12]
 

If I'm not completely and utterly mistaking (and others who claim to have made the tests themselves are lying), omnidirectional tracking links are actually +25% non-stack-nerfed drone OPTIMAL range and tracking.

So, a Warden II with basic skills and 3 omni tracking links will have an optimal of almost 140km.

Khan Dhu
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.06.23 10:26:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Khan Dhu on 23/06/2007 10:26:24
Originally by: Scordite
Keep in mind there are sentry drone damage rigs.. Which helps them quite a bit vs heavies.

And who would fit them to their Moros/Domis in lieu of more valuable rigs?

I think we can all agree (or at least one of you) they could benefit at least from the addition of the Racial Drone Spec skill requirement to IV. That would get you 8% of the 10% a T1 Sentry Damage Augmentor would grant you.

And omnidirectional tracking links only give a 1.2x bonus to tracking and range, so only 20%, not 25%.

Kanthras
Gallente
Balsarferskratchin Inc
Axiom Empire
Posted - 2007.06.23 10:29:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Kanthras on 23/06/2007 10:28:32
The situation isn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be. Coupled with drone sharpshooting a 1.2 optimal modifier is plenty. Especially considering the Domi has plenty of midslots available.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.06.23 10:33:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Khan Dhu
And omnidirectional tracking links only give a 1.2x bonus to tracking and range, so only 20%, not 25%.

Oh, you're right. Embarassed
Must have been dreaming of T2 omnitracking links already.

But they are +20% to drone optimal and drone tracking, as some people claim, and not +20% to drone control range and drone tracking, as the ingame description seems to imply, right... or are they ?

So, it would (hopefully) mean 3 of them while using Warden IIs would be almost 125km optimal, no ?

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.06.23 10:47:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 23/06/2007 10:46:27
Yes, and 155k with 4.

And 5 warden2 deal on a domi 99% of the dps as a mega with 7 425mm, spike and 3 damage mods. With a FAR better tracking. And without the spec skill, with it at lvl 4 they would deal about 6.6% more dps (if it would effect them).

They are actually a rather nice alternative as sniper for fleetbattles.

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2007.06.23 10:49:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Khan Dhu
Edited by: Khan Dhu on 23/06/2007 10:26:24
Originally by: Scordite
Keep in mind there are sentry drone damage rigs.. Which helps them quite a bit vs heavies.

And who would fit them to their Moros/Domis in lieu of more valuable rigs?

I think we can all agree (or at least one of you) they could benefit at least from the addition of the Racial Drone Spec skill requirement to IV. That would get you 8% of the 10% a T1 Sentry Damage Augmentor would grant you.

And omnidirectional tracking links only give a 1.2x bonus to tracking and range, so only 20%, not 25%.


Well I DID fit two of them on my 0.0 ratting and later lvl3 running Domi. And really, NPC killing is the one thing that sentries are most useful for anyway, I would never even think about using them in PvP (as I never snipe). Plus of course I am too cheap to fit rigs on PvP ships too.

ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Underworld Protection Agency
South Pole Dancers
Posted - 2007.06.23 11:14:00 - [18]
 

With t2 wardens it's possible to snipe at >150km in a dominix.

Okapir
Gallente
Eve Defence Force
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2007.06.23 11:26:00 - [19]
 

Ive used mostly Garde and Wardens with a Domi PvE, and many of the advantages are a little more subtle (IMHO).

Especially... the instant lock, retaliation, whilst the Domi thinks about targeting something for a long while, the sentries are already insta popping hostiles.

Ease and speed to scoop in tight lvl 4 missions is also very useful for sentries.

Also heavies aren't fixed yet the AI is a freakin joke, they are still traveling half way out to targets, then doing their own thing, now that really gets on my paps, especially when its under 40 clicks out.

My experience relates to tech 1, but up the ante, and I would not anticipate many of the finer issues to be addressed.

I fly with T2 Hammers in support of T1 sentries, can't see much point in the T2 sentries.


Sig omitted as a matter of principle
The principle being I haven't got one

Lux Simian
Posted - 2007.06.23 12:44:00 - [20]
 

Never underestimate swapping in a Target Painter drone to support 4 Sentry Drones and fitting duel Omni Directionals (or a gang mate at Target Painter range)

Mission wise the idea is you sit on your sentrys and then scoop and deploy your heavys when the big ships get in close.

Sentry Drones are relatively useless for improvised PVP applications (except in defending a position with time to set up - such as defending a mining op - or maybe even a gate camp)

Lyn Bunnions
Posted - 2007.06.23 12:47:00 - [21]
 

T1 sentry drones do more damage than T1 Heavy drones. This needs to be maintained with T2 sentries.

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2007.06.23 13:41:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Lyn Bunnions
T1 sentry drones do more damage than T1 Heavy drones. This needs to be maintained with T2 sentries.


Look at the RoF discrepancy, homeslice.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.06.23 13:54:00 - [23]
 

24/2 = 12 dps
50/4 = 12.5 dps

Same damagemod.

DarkElf
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.06.23 13:55:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Khan Dhu
The point is sentry drones should outdamage heavies. They're like drones in siege mode/mini sentry guns


says who?

First time i've ever heard a statement like that about sentry drones tbh. sentries are simply stationary drones for hitting out to longer range. nothing more, nothing less.


DE



Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises
Babylon Project
Posted - 2007.06.23 14:45:00 - [25]
 

So you can snipe >150km with a dominix with warden II's eh?

Even with my skills (long range targetting 5) to even target there I need two sensor booster II's, leaving 3 omnidirectional links for your drones.. which last I checked actually do have stacking penalty.

Also to actually control your drones at 150+ km you'll need at least 5 drone link augmentors in your high slots.

The optimal base range of a Warden II is 60 km (which is the maximum drone control range you could get without mods/rigs). Assuming you have lvl 5 drone sharpshooting this becomes 75 km. Even without stacking penalty the optimal range with 3 omnidirectional mods will be 129.6 km. The fall off is not changed at 30km, so without stacking penalty you can get optimal + fall off of just under 160km.

If you really want to snipe with warden II's I suggest using 4x omnidirs, 1x sensor booster II, 4x drone links and prolly 2x 425 II's and aim for the 140 km range, any further is just not really useful.


About the tech II sentry drones in general, the op makes a few good points (before making a few silly replies, shame that).
  • T2 sentries should have 20% extra tracking over tech I sentries

  • T2 sentries should at least have racial drone skill lvl 3 as a req, making the damage ok. If not I would like to see a dmg increase of 20% (basic tech II increase)



Of course there are also some not so good points:
  • Heavy drones should still outdamage sentry drones.. sentry drones are very very close to the overall damage over time anyways (since the heavies need to move between targets). They should be a similar option, not the obvious choice.

  • Double the optimal range? 100km optimal before skills? The drone control range becomes a serious problem that way .. And don't forget the problems capital ships have using sentry drones: they often drop outside scoop range, so it's not even useful for them (especially now that all capital ships [bar the titan] has a no-moving module).. Having drone control rigs on is just silly since you will want to use sentry dmg rigs if you go this far.


Anyways, they deserve a lil love to make 'em useful in stead of just something to train for.

Phrixus Zephyr
MEK Enterprises
Posted - 2007.06.23 16:06:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Khan Dhu
The point is sentry drones should outdamage heavies.

Wrong. Thus your whole thread is invalid.

They're a different weapon for a different situation. Always have been.

Breytli Woelin
Posted - 2007.06.24 16:14:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Lux Simian
Never underestimate swapping in a Target Painter drone to support 4 Sentry Drones and fitting duel Omni Directionals (or a gang mate at Target Painter range)

Mission wise the idea is you sit on your sentrys and then scoop and deploy your heavys when the big ships get in close.

Sentry Drones are relatively useless for improvised PVP applications (except in defending a position with time to set up - such as defending a mining op - or maybe even a gate camp)


Drones are situational. I don't see anyone complaining about how gardes don't do as much dps as hammerhead IIs, yet a lot of us who fly domis also like to use those . . . and t2 lights . . . but t2 meds and lights can be more effective in some situations than t2 ogres. Anyone who uses nothing but ogres in mission running either doesn't fight stuff smaller than battlecruisers, or has such an awesome tank and so much patience . . . . (you CAN use ogre 2s to pop weber/scrambler frigs, if you see-saw them . . . have them attack, then send them to a new target or recall them, to get out of optimal range, then send them to attack again; there's a 1 or 2 second period when they first attack in which they can hit the weber/scramber frigs; never use this unless you're feeling lazy).

Sentries are great at popping stuff at distance. Quite frankly, for mission running running, I cannot see why most people use sentries inside 20km range. Ogres do more dmg. Lights and meds can pop frigs a lot faster in that range than gardes can.

I tend to run wardens for long range (out to 77km range; if I need to snipe beyond that range, then I'm doing something wrong in that mission). Wardens can hit battleships inside 20km range, so they're very useful for ranged bs killing.

Should t2 sentries be equal to t2 regular drones? Probably not, for the reasons many have posted here: long range ammo is not equal to short range, in dmg. Drones are more tactical than your "one range fits all" Caldari style strategy. I have no problem with t2 sentries doing less dmg, because they'll still be safer and/or more convenient to use than t2 heavies in some situations.

I WOULD like to see a race sentry drone setup, for this reason: currently sentries are each a different dmg type. So unlike regular drones I cannot always pack along the right dmg type drone for the job, without sacrificing range in some way. But, I can deal with it. I'd much rather see fixes to drone ai (click every 2 seconds to remind the heavies that I want them on my target, not theirs) and rat ai (it'd be nice to not have to recall my drones every time a new wave appears; I don't see missile users losing the ability to use their launchers every time a new wave appears, for 30-120 seconds).

X99 Z990
Posted - 2007.06.24 17:01:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: X99 Z990 on 24/06/2007 17:21:42
Edited by: X99 Z990 on 24/06/2007 17:01:58
Sentry Drones - Missions, Long Range, Moros.

Heavy Drones - Everything else.

-

Is that really so disputable? Confused

Currently i think a moros would do about 800+ dps with T2 sentries.
Thats slowly creeping up to fighter dmg i dont think they need to be any better.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.06.29 15:57:00 - [29]
 

Just a mini-necro here, to add a few more info.

Long story short (details don't matter very much), one of my corpmates had a confirmation from a GM that indeed, T2 sentry drones properly display the skill requirements (they don't need drone specialisation) and they don't get any bonuses from drone specialisation either.

As such, I say *rabble*rabble*rabble* unfair and all that.
I hoped it was a bug, but apparently, it's not.

madaluap
Gallente
Anthrax Foundation
Posted - 2007.06.29 16:04:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Just a mini-necro here, to add a few more info.

Long story short (details don't matter very much), one of my corpmates had a confirmation from a GM that indeed, T2 sentry drones properly display the skill requirements (they don't need drone specialisation) and they don't get any bonuses from drone specialisation either.

As such, I say *rabble*rabble*rabble* unfair and all that.
I hoped it was a bug, but apparently, it's not.


Sucks yeh, Every single drone T2 drone in the game gets bonus from specialisation, except sentry now.


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