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smilinglyer
Posted - 2007.06.09 14:23:00 - [1]
 

When is caldari going to get something done for them. All i see is caldari getting weeker and weeker at pvp now they are suppose to be the toughest but i think they are the weekest.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2007.06.09 14:27:00 - [2]
 

Train another race for PvP.

Tony Benn
Dawn of War
Posted - 2007.06.09 14:44:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Tony Benn on 09/06/2007 15:02:56
/SIGNED!

Shield tankers can't tackle, and as such are useless for PVP. Look at the T1 ships, and ask yourselves - which would I least like to have in my gang?

Thorax, Stabber, Maller, Moa - That's right, the Moa. It can't tank, it can't kill, it can't tackle, and it's slow - all the other races equivelant can at least do ONE of the above.

Vexor, Rupture, Omen, Caracal - That's right, it's the Caracal. Most FCs will turn their nose up at these ships, and send you back to dock to fit with Gallente RSDs - that's just not right!

Megathron, Typhoon, Apocalypse, Raven - Like the Caracal, these have to rely on the fittings of their arch rival to be considered effective. Raven pilots are often told to bring something else or not come at all!

Bluntly, Caldari are so useless in PVP that people actually try to armour tank them to turn them into disposable EW boats. The only T1 Caldari ships worth spit was the Scorpion, but you nerfed it along with the blackbird & ECM. Now the only one with any credit at all is the new Rokh and the Drake (which is about to swallow a big nerf). So, the only ships worth buying if you're a Caldari are either the most expensive battleship or T2. Great, huh?

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=529800 - Caldari Speed Buff

Damn alts. 'Tis Camilo

Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
Posted - 2007.06.09 14:50:00 - [4]
 

So what ? U can't solopvp but try running mission in other race ship.
See difference ?
This is tradeoff

Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
Posted - 2007.06.09 15:04:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 09/06/2007 15:34:03
Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 09/06/2007 15:31:01
Quote:
try running mission in other race ship.


I use an Apoc for lvl 4 missions with no problems. What's your point? I laugh when people tell me they use a Raven to run missions. Way to go eat into your profit margin with the most expensive ammo in the game!

Note I also wasn't talking solo PVP but gang warfare. Comprehension is a good thing, yes?

Plain truth is Caldari suck. They're not the "best" at PVE, they are just the easiest to setup if you know what you're up against. If you didn't know what damage types the rats are going to do, Caldari would be the worst again. They are favoured simply because missiles allow you to choose damage types, and because shields are easy to configure for a passive tank when you know the hostiles only do kinetic and thermal damage.

Boost the rats, boost Caldari (in my opinion speed is the simplest and least dangerous fix since the Need for Speed initiative) and we're laughing.

Quote:
Train another race for PvP.


This suggestion is frequent, and it gets no less ridiculous every time it comes out. I cross trained into Amarr myself back a Blackbird was a fearsome ship and not just a paper tiger. I've since trained into Gallente and Minmatar (small ships) but this completely skirts around the point: Caldari can't PVP. Training another race does not go anyway to fixing their utter lack of PVP credibility.

Neuromandis
Posted - 2007.06.09 15:42:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Carniflex
Train another race for PvP.


In what way does this make caldari less useless for pvp?

Byson1
Posted - 2007.06.09 21:14:00 - [7]
 

Caldari have the best weapons.. the best tanking bc.. the fastest covert ops.. caldari get all breaks..
Gallente on the other hand, you have to be a filthy rich to be able to make a gallente ship comparable to a standard caldari ship. I think CCP must play caldari..

Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
Posted - 2007.06.09 21:20:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 09/06/2007 21:21:47
Quote:
Caldari have the best weapons.. the best tanking bc.. the fastest covert ops.. caldari get all breaks..


The best weapons? Missiles? They're more expensive and take time to hit - they're inferior to guns in PVP. Best tank? Well, the drake is about to eat a nerf with the next update (according to the last dev blog, someone forgot to change the shield recharge rates). As for the Caldari covert ops, what the hell are we supposed to do with all those midslots? There's not enough cap for EW, barely enough power for a MWD and nowhere near enough CPU for a shield tank - which would be pointless anyway, as the cloak is your primary defense. I'd rather have the lowslots to fill with speeds mods, thank you very much.

Quote:
you have to be a filthy rich to be able to make a gallente ship comparable to a standard caldari ship.


You're chuffing kidding me! Gallente are almost universally considered to be the best race for PVP at present: Nosferatu fitted Dominix with swarms of drones, Megathron in any incarnation. Thorax is by far the best cruiser for both long and close range engagements, and generally armour is preferable in all PVP situations. About the only concession I'm willing to make is that shield rigs cost substantially less than armour rig, and the signature radius penalty is less painful than the velocity one. Otherwise, Gallente > Caldari in almost every way imaginable - except the poor Deimos, which just plain needs some love.

Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
Posted - 2007.06.10 08:06:00 - [9]
 

And what is ur point ? U whine whine whine complain while u don't see benefits of your own race.
This makes you look silly, you know ?

Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
Posted - 2007.06.10 08:26:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Valandril
And what is ur point ? U whine whine whine complain while u don't see benefits of your own race.
This makes you look silly, you know ?


Please, enlighten us with your wisdom: What makes Caldari so great? Might I recommend you actually read the thread over before you respond...

Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
Posted - 2007.06.10 08:33:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
Originally by: Valandril
And what is ur point ? U whine whine whine complain while u don't see benefits of your own race.
This makes you look silly, you know ?


Please, enlighten us with your wisdom: What makes Caldari so great? Might I recommend you actually read the thread over before you respond...
Theyr best support race in the game, blackbird, scorpion, rook with theyr awesome ecm sniping range and power with proper skills.
Sniping hacs as antisupport ships fill great role in fleets.

Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
Posted - 2007.06.10 08:46:00 - [12]
 

Quote:
Theyr best support race in the game, blackbird, scorpion, rook with theyr awesome ecm sniping range and power with proper skills.


None of which is the sole domain of Caldari, ECM aside. It's also generally considered preferable to carry RSD on something like the Raven rather than fly a Scorpion, or to shield tank said Scorpion as the poor thing is almost guaranteed to be called primary and this tactic can buy valuable time for the damage dealers in your gang to do their thing. The Blackbird likewise is the most likely cruiser to be called in combat, mainly due to it's effectiveness, and I would surrender that it's one of the better Caldari ships - which of course means the Rook needs no introduction.

What of the poor Moa? The Caracal?

Quote:
Sniping hacs as antisupport ships fill great role in fleets.


Yup, the Eagle is awesome when it comes to popping tacklers. However, if you'd follow the link in my sig you'd see my proposal is to fractionally increase the speed and agility of Caldari vessels, whilst reducing the number of armour/hull hitpoints (5% and 10% respectively). This would mean that the Caldari T1 ships are brought in-line with their other faction counterparts and would fit the game lore.

T2 ships are a completely different kettle of fish, as none of the factions T2 ships seem to correspond to their T1 hulls.

Strikeclone
Raata Fleet Command
Posted - 2007.06.10 17:48:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Carniflex
Train another race for PvP.


typical unhelpful reply.

Eve is not counterstrike you dont just abandon your entire RP angle (if you have one) to get the ingame edge. The game needs to be better balanced so that Caldari are generally not so usless in PVP.


Strikeclone
Raata Fleet Command
Posted - 2007.06.10 17:48:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Valandril
So what ? U can't solopvp but try running mission in other race ship.
See difference ?
This is tradeoff


idiotic response.

No further comment required here


Shaemell Buttleson
Posted - 2007.06.10 18:17:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Shaemell Buttleson on 10/06/2007 18:23:48
If you are talking about solo PVP then yes caldari do have their weaknesses but I know several pilots who use nothing else and very effectivly as well.

As for gangs or fleets then you are totaly wrong as they can lay the smack down well and also run really decent tanks and then we have the support ships like Scorps and Rooks and quite frankly if you don't rate them as powerfull then you really need to rethink everything.

Oh and don't name other ships to prove your point how crap they are etc with ships like the Moa. I don't see many Belicose, Augoror, Exequor in combat situations, or Breachers, Inquisitors or Navitas either. All races have their strengths/weaknesses/good/bad ships with usefull or otherwise bonus's.






Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
Posted - 2007.06.10 19:01:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Strikeclone
Originally by: Valandril
So what ? U can't solopvp but try running mission in other race ship.
See difference ?
This is tradeoff


idiotic response.

No further comment required here


i don't see anything idiotic here, i'm gallente and i know that suck y sucky pve is a tradeoff for pretty fine solopvp.

Khozhlov Zhadov
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2007.06.10 22:20:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Valandril
Originally by: Strikeclone
Originally by: Valandril
So what ? U can't solopvp but try running mission in other race ship.
See difference ?
This is tradeoff


idiotic response.

No further comment required here


i don't see anything idiotic here, i'm gallente and i know that suck y sucky pve is a tradeoff for pretty fine solopvp.


But this just isnt really helpful at all. Yes you are right raven is a damn good mission runer but i kmow some people who argue otherwise and pvp only in gallente.

But anyway thats another matter and if you really bellieve other races need a boost for PvE then post a seperate thread on that.

I dont think that because i want to small gang or solo pvp that i should have to train another races ships. So all pvpers fly domis all pve'ers fly ravens? thats just boring, we've got all these ships itd be nice to see more variety. its also downright studid as far as rp goes. Im a staunch caldari nationalist so im going to train to fly a rax? yes currently i shoud if im going to solo it rather than take a caracal or moa but that ruins the rp element of the game. Which we keep getting told by the devs is really important (and i agree).

Im afraid that im rubbish with the numbers so i wont suggest any fixes but i only fly caldari and i can deffinitely tell there is a balance issue.

Just no more nerfing please. there are better ways to balance things most of the time.

ps.
if we are all flying gallente for pvp and caldari for pve what happens to the other two just as important races? Im sure amarrians would have a few things to say on the matter.

Reggie Stoneloader
Poofdinkles
Posted - 2007.06.10 23:13:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Valandril
Originally by: Strikeclone
Originally by: Valandril
So what ? U can't solopvp but try running mission in other race ship.
See difference ?
This is tradeoff


idiotic response.

No further comment required here


i don't see anything idiotic here, i'm gallente and i know that suck y sucky pve is a tradeoff for pretty fine solopvp.
That's right. This whole discussion is based on the premise that PvP capablility is all there is in EvE and that all the races should be balanced for warfare. Caldari is a good race for the casual player. You can mine in an Osprey, run missions in a Raven, snipe/mine in a Rokh and PvP in a Crow or Drake. The Charon has the best capacity of all freighters, making it the winner for high-sec logistics.

In fleet battle the Rokh is an economical asset and the Raven has a place in small POS destruction and gate camping. The Scorpion's merit is it's greatest weakness, since it is always primary, but it's cheap to outfit and replace, so even just as a bullet sponge it can play a role in PvP.

Lord Xavius
Posted - 2007.06.11 05:15:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Byson1
Caldari have the best weapons.. the best tanking bc.. the fastest covert ops.. caldari get all breaks..
Gallente on the other hand, you have to be a filthy rich to be able to make a gallente ship comparable to a standard caldari ship. I think CCP must play caldari..

Check the damage mods on the blasters, then check the damage amount of the ammo, then compare with missiles + add some flight time/range and explosion radius/velocity vs signature radius/speed, then reconsider what you just posted.
No Caldari isn't the best PvP race out there, in fact damage wise they pretty much suck, but damn they can be fitted for some awesome support and since the ECM nerf it's the only race capable of proper ECM support.
It's very simple, every race have strenghts/weaknesses.
Stop complaining about something that isn't broken, train up some other race's ships/weapons if you want to do more damage.

Neuromandis
Posted - 2007.06.11 10:10:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Neuromandis on 11/06/2007 10:12:36
Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader
Quote:
i don't see anything idiotic here, i'm gallente and i know that suck y sucky pve is a tradeoff for pretty fine solopvp.
That's right. This whole discussion is based on the premise that PvP capablility is all there is in EvE and that all the races should be balanced for warfare. Caldari is a good race for the casual player. You can mine in an Osprey, run missions in a Raven, snipe/mine in a Rokh and PvP in a Crow or Drake. The Charon has the best capacity of all freighters, making it the winner for high-sec logistics.

In fleet battle the Rokh is an economical asset and the Raven has a place in small POS destruction and gate camping. The Scorpion's merit is it's greatest weakness, since it is always primary, but it's cheap to outfit and replace, so even just as a bullet sponge it can play a role in PvP.


All the quoted statements are either untrue and irrelevant.
UNTRUE because all races have ships to do all stuff with, it's just that some are better than others, and some races' ships (hint - Gallente) can fill almost any role, pvp or pve, while some other race's ships may only fill certain roles (hint- Caldari) and some others are just problematic apart from shiny exceptions (hint- Amarr).
IRRELEVANT because WITH YOUR VIEW, AMARR ARE PERFECT. The abaddon is a very good pve ship, and the Curse is arguably the best PVP. Armageddon snipes nicely, and the dreads rock. They fill all roles -- profit.

Problem is things don't work that way. Amarr are BAD RACE because they have 3-4 good ships out of 20 combat ships that are generally crap, and these ships can only do a thing or two each. Caldari don't have it as bad as amarr because they have a few more good ships, but these are even more role-limited. The fact remains that their pvp can use a little TLC.

And let me here no more 'gallente pvp, Caldari pve' crap - because such statements can only be characterised as 'crap'. The dominix can be even faster than the raven at missionrunning. Not to speak of the myrmidon, that can in some cases run lvl 4's with less danger than a raven. In ratting there's not even a comparison, the Domi and the Myrmi are just better. The only thing not letting the Dominix and Myrmidon be actually BETTER than the raven on lvl 4's is the stupid full-stage aggro bug with the drones, and this only applies to the missions where full-stage aggro is actually untankable. BUT FULL STAGE AGGRO BY DRONES IS A BUG WHICH SHOULD BE FIXED.

What all this means is that Gallente are better than Ccaldari and Amarr, being the best by a big margin at pvp, and almost as good as Caldari (in some cases better) at pve. This should not mean that the Gallente should be nerfed, it just means that

a) Amarr should be buffed a little

b) Caldari should be tinkered with to help their pvp, without actually buffing them a lot in combat prowess (by that I basically mean their damage, tanking, cap et.c. should not be buffed). What the OP suggests is very very good and makes sense, maybe not in those numbers but still it is almost on the mark. If speed+missiles combo is a problem, INCREASE THE SPEED OF THEIR GUNSHIPS ONLY, which have no such problem, (and nerf minmatar LOL).

c) (sidenote) The drone full stage aggro bug should be fixed.


 

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