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Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2007.05.30 20:37:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Loyal Servant
CCP - think that one over a minute.
That does nothing but embolden people, and make more rise up against you.

Take a hint: let it die.
Calling your lawyers then TELLING your customers that your calling your lawyers on them is just going to insight them against you.

Not to mention you have virtually no case.


Eh? I'm ready to start a CCP Legal Aid Fund for them. I hope they do find sufficient reason to go after these people. It is getting tiresome where people are emboldened by internet anonymity and feel their actions have no repercussions or consequence. Not even counting their reputations a lot of people work for CCP. Apparently it does not concern these people that they are messing with other people's livelihoods and doing so in a callous and craven manner.

If they are so convinced of CCP bad intetions and despise company so much then they are free to cancel their accounts.

Erik Pathfinder
Caldari
M. Corp
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2007.05.30 20:39:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Loyal Servant
CCP - think that one over a minute.
That does nothing but embolden people, and make more rise up against you.

Take a hint: let it die.
Calling your lawyers then TELLING your customers that your calling your lawyers on them is just going to insight them against you.

Not to mention you have virtually no case.


Eh? I'm ready to start a CCP Legal Aid Fund for them. I hope they do find sufficient reason to go after these people. It is getting tiresome where people are emboldened by internet anonymity and feel their actions have no repercussions or consequence. Not even counting their reputations a lot of people work for CCP. Apparently it does not concern these people that they are messing with other people's livelihoods and doing so in a callous and craven manner.

If they are so convinced of CCP bad intetions and despise company so much then they are free to cancel their accounts.


QFT

Not to mention messing with other player's fun, ie the game we play.

Stop trying to kill EVE, just go away if you don't like it, or hell, make a better game and I will play that instead!

Loyal Servant
Caldari
The Knights Templar
Strategic Operations Brigade
Posted - 2007.05.30 20:40:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Loyal Servant
CCP - think that one over a minute.
That does nothing but embolden people, and make more rise up against you.

Take a hint: let it die.
Calling your lawyers then TELLING your customers that your calling your lawyers on them is just going to insight them against you.

Not to mention you have virtually no case.


Eh? I'm ready to start a CCP Legal Aid Fund for them. I hope they do find sufficient reason to go after these people. It is getting tiresome where people are emboldened by internet anonymity and feel their actions have no repercussions or consequence. Not even counting their reputations a lot of people work for CCP. Apparently it does not concern these people that they are messing with other people's livelihoods and doing so in a callous and craven manner.

If they are so convinced of CCP bad intetions and despise company so much then they are free to cancel their accounts.


Your right - but this is a slippery slope.
What good is a legal fund and they DO pursue legal actions, if they have no customers left?

It generates too much negative publicity for them and it would be a poor business decision.

Headlines: Company sues customers

Not good...

Phoenix Britannian
Gallente
Virtue Corporation
Posted - 2007.05.30 20:41:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Tractormech
Look at it this way.

A man buys groceries from the grocery store. One day he buys a steak. He eats the steak and is fine.

Near a month later, he and the grocery store owner have a disagreement. The customer immediatley begins feigning sick saying it was the steak that made him life-threateningly ill. He goes on the live television telling all the grocery stores customers that shopping there will make you sick. He then gets 4000 of his buddies to picket outside said grocery store until they are cleared off by police. An investigation by police finds the man made it all up.

What would happen? The customer would get his ass sued off by the store.

Absolutely no difference in this case.


Except they couldn't do anything to Something Awful itself for it. Why? Because the actions were carried out by a small portion of its tens of thousands of paid forum subscribers, also known as "Goons", and not by Something Awful itself. Thus, you'd have to pick out each and every one of them to file suit against, which I suppose wouldn't be too hard for someone with all their contact information on file.

Rex Dangerstein
Posted - 2007.05.30 20:47:00 - [95]
 

Edited by: Rex Dangerstein on 30/05/2007 20:46:27
Originally by: Phoenix Britannian
Originally by: Tractormech
Look at it this way.

A man buys groceries from the grocery store. One day he buys a steak. He eats the steak and is fine.

Near a month later, he and the grocery store owner have a disagreement. The customer immediatley begins feigning sick saying it was the steak that made him life-threateningly ill. He goes on the live television telling all the grocery stores customers that shopping there will make you sick. He then gets 4000 of his buddies to picket outside said grocery store until they are cleared off by police. An investigation by police finds the man made it all up.

What would happen? The customer would get his ass sued off by the store.

Absolutely no difference in this case.


Except they couldn't do anything to Something Awful itself for it. Why? Because the actions were carried out by a small portion of its tens of thousands of paid forum subscribers, also known as "Goons", and not by Something Awful itself. Thus, you'd have to pick out each and every one of them to file suit against, which I suppose wouldn't be too hard for someone with all their contact information on file.

Just a slught nitpick, but SA membership hit 100,000 last nightish I think.

Also, knowing a lot of goons, CCP would be searching Azerbaijan for several hundred people by the name Leonard Butteska.

prsr
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.05.30 20:48:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Rex Dangerstein

2.) Since Iceland has no seperation of church and state any case they would make againist an American institution or persons can be instantly thrown out of court by claiming the first amendment.


Having a state religion doesn't mean that there is no freedom of religion.

It's a rather strange argument anyway, the first amendment of the US constitution is a rule that the US congress needs to abide by. What does that have to do with a US citizen in court vs ccp from iceland?

Phoenix Britannian
Gallente
Virtue Corporation
Posted - 2007.05.30 20:49:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Rex Dangerstein

Just a slught nitpick, but SA membership hit 100,000 last nightish I think.

Also, knowing a lot of goons, CCP would be searching Azerbaijan for several hundred people by the name Leonard Butteska.


Well, I was going to say 50,000 but I didn't know how accurate that would be.

Rex Dangerstein
Posted - 2007.05.30 20:53:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: prsr
Originally by: Rex Dangerstein

2.) Since Iceland has no seperation of church and state any case they would make againist an American institution or persons can be instantly thrown out of court by claiming the first amendment.


Having a state religion doesn't mean that there is no freedom of religion.

It's a rather strange argument anyway, the first amendment of the US constitution is a rule that the US congress needs to abide by. What does that have to do with a US citizen in court vs ccp from iceland?

Believe it or not, Iceland is different in the fact that there is no law protecting freedom of religion, ergo, conflicting with US law, so it can be thrown out.

Unless it's one of those activist judges Fox News talks about....

Matroshka
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2007.05.30 20:54:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Buxaroo
Originally by: Tractormech
Look at it this way.

A man buys groceries from the grocery store. One day he buys a steak. He eats the steak and is fine.

Near a month later, he and the grocery store owner have a disagreement. The customer immediatley begins feigning sick saying it was the steak that made him life-threateningly ill. He goes on the live television telling all the grocery stores customers that shopping there will make you sick. He then gets 4000 of his buddies to picket outside said grocery store until they are cleared off by police. An investigation by police finds the man made it all up.

What would happen? The customer would get his ass sued off by the store.

Absolutely no difference in this case.


Best.
Analogy.
Ever.

You sir have just described the whole thing in a nutshell.

I was trying to think up something simular but in a political sense, but yours hits it right on the head.


The analogy only makes sense if the "police" are actually employees of the grocery store.

Raem Civrie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.05.30 20:54:00 - [100]
 

This is what CCP's lawyers will do:

Write letters to Slashdot, Digg and any media outlets that the Goons reached with this story, and calmly ask them to print retractions.

This is what CCP's lawyers will not do:

Take a list of everyone in Goonswarm and sue them for whatever they think of.

Vactet
Capital Enrichment Services
Posted - 2007.05.30 20:54:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: Vactet on 30/05/2007 20:55:46
This all should prove entertaining, either way it goes...
But if this does turn into a lawsuit..mind posting where its taking place? Id like to watch..
(And no, im not gonna get into the legal mumbojumbo in the rest of the thread)
EDIT:
And places like Digg, etc will tell those lawyers to go pound sand.
Raem..you have 6 toes. Completely untrue (Id hope), and its defamation of character.
Hey guess what, im a US citizen, freedom of speech and the freedom to have arms to back that up incase anyone tries anything fishy with my constitution.
I dont get into the whole law thing, i just go by the constitution, it overrides everything else in this country.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2007.05.30 20:55:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Loyal Servant

Headlines: Company sues customers

Not good...



It depends. If it's a public company, there is a duty to the shareholdes in some cases. While not the case for publically held CCP, they'd still have to be negligent at this point, having suffered a DoS attack coordernated by a few individuals, not to consider legal action. Allowing yourself to be swayed by DoS attacks is a sure way to invite them in the future when you annoy any segement of the playerbase, to its general detriment.

Megadon
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.05.30 20:58:00 - [103]
 

In light of recent events...

I have consulted my (C)rack Team of Ivy League Lawyers (CTILL), and they too have come to the conclusion that I am due some type of compensatory remuneration (payment for the regular folk out there), from CCP to cover the loss and damages that I have experienced from both CCP's interference and non-interference (depending on which would be most advantageous to me) of the game Eve forthwith. I will now turn this over to my CTILL spokesman...

"Please let this posting serve as legal notice to all concerned named as defendents, that the plaintiff, has hereby served notice to all concerned, that he has begun to undertake legal proceedings against said party forthwith, and will pursue such legal avenues as are afforded to him under the laws and statues (and other things) of the state, providence, country and/or territory or incorporated community (but not the one he lived in prior to this one) in which he lives (now) to secure said remunerations (cash money) for said losses and damages due to defendants interference or non-interference in said game Eve, thereby herewith and soforth so help us god."

Signed CTILL

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2007.05.30 21:01:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Rex Dangerstein
Believe it or not, Iceland is different in the fact that there is no law protecting freedom of religion, ergo, conflicting with US law, so it can be thrown out.

Unless it's one of those activist judges Fox News talks about....


I so do not understand what you are on about here.

If CCP sues someone in the US then the US courts will apply US law. If the defendants are found to have broken the law they will be dealt with accordingly. The US courts couldn't give a hoot about what the laws are in Iceland when it comes to this.

prsr
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.05.30 21:02:00 - [105]
 

Edited by: prsr on 30/05/2007 21:02:25
Originally by: Rex Dangerstein

Believe it or not, Iceland is different in the fact that there is no law protecting freedom of religion, ergo, conflicting with US law, so it can be thrown out.


1. The US state dept. says there is freedom of religion provided by the constitution of Iceland. (here)

2. How does a non-existant conflict with US law enter into a case about internet spaceships.

3. I'm sure Icelandic tax laws are different from US law, maybe thats enough ground to get it thrown out on?

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2007.05.30 21:03:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Megadon
In light of recent events...

I have consulted my (C)rack Team of Ivy League Lawyers (CTILL)...


Did your CTILL team also mention that in order to recover your $15 it will cost you $500,000 in CTILL fees? Wink

DubanFP
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.05.30 21:04:00 - [107]
 

What people keep missing isn't the whole slander thing. It's the whole DoS(Denial of Service) attack that disrupted CCP's activities which is internationally illegal, and a crapload worse to boot.

Dal Thrax
Perkone
Posted - 2007.05.30 21:04:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Through Actions
Equal to yours. I studied enough business law in college to know the basics of contract law, international law, and defamation lawsuits. In the United States such lawsuits are notoriously difficult to prosecute and usually end up hurting the company doing the suing.

CCP may have more success in European courts where governments have less of a problem censoring their people, however in America and internationally it is extremely unlikely that CCP would get anything, including an injunction out of a lawsuit.

EDIT: By the way, CCP knows this which is why this is an empty threat. They simply want to scare people away from damaging their brand, and for that I do not blame them.


Go back and check your law books.

Defamation occurs when those committing the act do so:

1) Without a good faith belief in the truth of the statement; or
2) Without reasonable grounds for believing the truth of the statement; or
3) With a motive or willingness to vex, harass, annoy, or injure you; or
4) Is exaggerated or not fully or fairly stated; or
5) The result of a reckless investigation; or
6) Motivated by hatred or ill will towards you.

Looks to me like Goons crossed the line several places. A callous disregard for the truth is enough.

What's more, and here's the real kicker:

- You do not have to prove damages in a defamation case as damages are assumed (so CCP need not figure out how many people left for instance to show a specific damage).
- Each repetition of a defamatory remark is a new injury. This means that you can obtain damages for each time the defamatory statement is repeated.

That last is a rough one...how many times did Goons post? 4,000? That makes 4,000 individual instances of defamation each considered a separate injury to CCP.

As for Goons countersuing? I'd really like to see for what. Even if Devs were sitting in Jita spawning Titans for BOB and insta popping all other alliances' POS there is nothing illegal about that. It's their game. They own it. They can do what they like. It would be stupid of course but not illegal.


Can you append country please? That sounds like a British libel action, not the hell and a half it is to sue somebody for libel in the US.

Dal

Rex Dangerstein
Posted - 2007.05.30 21:05:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: prsr
Edited by: prsr on 30/05/2007 21:02:13
Edited by: prsr on 30/05/2007 21:01:08
Originally by: Rex Dangerstein

Believe it or not, Iceland is different in the fact that there is no law protecting freedom of religion, ergo, conflicting with US law, so it can be thrown out.


1. The US state dept. says there is freedom of religion provided by the constitution of Iceland. (here)

2. How does a non-existant conflict with US law enter into a case about internet spaceships.

3. I'm sure Icelandic tax laws are different from US law, maybe thats enough ground to get it thrown out on?
Oh, nevermind then.

That'll show me for getting information from WikipediaNeutral

Angelonico
Helljumpers
Posted - 2007.05.30 21:05:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Wylker
Shrug, I don't have a ton of legal experience...


Stop right there. You're a moron, get out.

Don't talk about what you don't know. Horrible troll by the way, D- for effort. You can do better.

Rex Dangerstein
Posted - 2007.05.30 21:07:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Megadon
In light of recent events...

I have consulted my (C)rack Team of Ivy League Lawyers (CTILL)...


Did your CTILL team also mention that in order to recover your $15 it will cost you $500,000 in CTILL fees? Wink

Just add a 10mil suit for "Personal Suffering" and you may see a profit yet.

RossP Zoyka
Posted - 2007.05.30 21:12:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Erik Pathfinder
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Loyal Servant
CCP - think that one over a minute.
That does nothing but embolden people, and make more rise up against you.

Take a hint: let it die.
Calling your lawyers then TELLING your customers that your calling your lawyers on them is just going to insight them against you.

Not to mention you have virtually no case.


Eh? I'm ready to start a CCP Legal Aid Fund for them. I hope they do find sufficient reason to go after these people. It is getting tiresome where people are emboldened by internet anonymity and feel their actions have no repercussions or consequence. Not even counting their reputations a lot of people work for CCP. Apparently it does not concern these people that they are messing with other people's livelihoods and doing so in a callous and craven manner.

If they are so convinced of CCP bad intetions and despise company so much then they are free to cancel their accounts.


QFT

Not to mention messing with other player's fun, ie the game we play.

Stop trying to kill EVE, just go away if you don't like it, or hell, make a better game and I will play that instead!


Goonswarm has completely disrupted my gaming experience and I am going to quit EVE today because of Goons causing so much chaos.

Anybody else going to up and quit EVE now because of the Goons causing so many problems?

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2007.05.30 21:15:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Dal Thrax
Can you append country please? That sounds like a British libel action, not the hell and a half it is to sue somebody for libel in the US.

Dal


Sure...California, United States

Although looking at it further this seems to relate to an employer defaming an employee.

The more relevant civil code is California Civil Code Section 46.

Slander is a false and unprivileged publication, orally uttered, and also communications by radio or any mechanical or other means which:

1. Charges any person with crime, or with having been indicted, convicted, or punished for crime;

2. Imputes in him the present existence of an infectious, contagious, or loathsome disease;

3. Tends directly to injure him in respect to his office, profession, trade or business, either by imputing to him general disqualification in those respects which the office or other occupation peculiarly requires, or by imputing something with reference to his office, profession, trade, or business that has a natural tendency to lessen its profits;

4. Imputes to him impotence or a want of chastity; or

5. Which, by natural consequence, causes actual damage.


So of the above #3 looks to be the relevant clause.

I am fully aware that these laws can differ from state to state not to mention countries.

Xaen
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2007.05.30 21:22:00 - [114]
 

To CCP:

Don't bring out the lawyers.

Haven't you seen what happens when a company tries to legally attack who did something to them on the internet? The story explodes. The bad press you're trying to suppress goes global and receives more attention. The 15 minutes of fame becomes immortalized as stuff of internet-lore forever.

Yeah yeah, I know I'm in the Goonswarm, but I'm trying to give friendly advice. Lawyers do not win internet battles. You might as well commit internet seppeku as bring lawyers into an internet fight.

DubanFP
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.05.30 21:26:00 - [115]
 

Edited by: DubanFP on 30/05/2007 21:25:22
Originally by: Xaen
To CCP:

Don't bring out the lawyers.

Haven't you seen what happens when a company tries to legally attack who did something to them on the internet? The story explodes. The bad press you're trying to suppress goes global and receives more attention. The 15 minutes of fame becomes immortalized as stuff of internet-lore forever.

Yeah yeah, I know I'm in the Goonswarm, but I'm trying to give friendly advice. Lawyers do not win internet battles. You might as well commit internet seppeku as bring lawyers into an internet fight.

In most cases like that the accused didn't directly ATTACK the company. This was a blatent DoS attack aimed to disrupt CCP, as well as disruptive slander everywhere. Honestly I'm not saying CCP SHOULD put a lawsuit against the people who planned the attack, but if they did i would definately support it.

Phishy
The Scope
Posted - 2007.05.30 21:28:00 - [116]
 

I'm also in Goonswarm and I think it would be absolutely hilarious if you tried to sue us and I encourage you to do so.

Trevedian
Amarr
Shaolin Monks
Posted - 2007.05.30 21:33:00 - [117]
 

This whole fiasco is yet another "Dark Side" of having thousands of players unified in solidarity trying to smear a game companies name because they aren't getting their way, don't understand cuz they are mostly nubs, can't achieve their objectives ingame and need someone/something to blame...

Sharkbait was just doing his job, its obvious, STOP WHINING!

No one has pointed out that this could damage SA's reputation as well, but they really don't have much to lose compared to CCP.

My suggestion is... Swing the nerfbat until Solo/Small Gang PVP becomes wide open and fun again and stop heading down the path of HUGE Alliance blobs and cap ship battles.

Epic battles are fun to see... But small gang PVP is as good as it gets in EVE, imo.


Nore Khadafi
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.05.30 21:37:00 - [118]
 

Lawyerswarm haven't brakes.

Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
Posted - 2007.05.30 21:40:00 - [119]
 

Technically CCP doesn't even have to sue, they can just turn over the server logs as "proof" of an attempt to disrupt services to the FBI, Interpol, etc and cry for protection.

And if ONE packet came through that was a malformed DOS attack or something it just makes their cause even stronger.

Mogrin
Spartan Fleet Systems
Posted - 2007.05.30 21:43:00 - [120]
 

The difference being that you can actually discuss this on SA.
Here, anything slightly tarnishing will simply disappear.
Shocked It is a mystery!

So don't be surprised if this thread ends up with one-sided perspective. And that doesn't mean its right.


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