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Captain Ferros
Caldari
Expeditionary Fleet 1
Ka-Tet
Posted - 2007.05.28 19:53:00 - [1]
 

Im sure several corps have been there, so now I ask for advice from the community..

Money for corporations

Back in empire, it was rather easy.. not much to spend money on, and we got our 10% tax from the corp members mission running and bounties.

Out in 0.0 and specifically one with rats with no bounties on them (rouge drones)..

Money has gotten very hard to get a hold of.

We have tried to get donations, very little help.

We have tried a monthly dues that members out in 0.0 should be able to maintain with little trouble (makeing 50 mill in 4 hours of work) Little help...

We dont wnat to kick people not paying, cause some are still back in empire, and doing the mission running that brings in the small bit we have.

We have built our first capital ship out of funds soley from the admirality, and to expand this, we have been paying what should be a corps responsibility out of the funds of 2 or 3 people.

If that tax was applied to any profit, say market sales, it would not be an issue...

as it stands though, I dont wnat to be a financial slave to the corporation to make it grow

Ideas on how others resolved this?

And no, an IPO is not an option for this corp, I got overrulled 4 to 1 lol. some people are scared with a system they dont know how it works...

TheArchJudge
Gallente
FinFleet
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.05.28 20:03:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: TheArchJudge on 28/05/2007 20:12:41

IMO If members don't have the dedication required to participate/help in corp ops to raise money then you need to act on raising their dedication by improving gameplay. Make sure they enjoy the game as part of your corporation, then ask for dedication and ultimatly, money.

If worse comes to worse and your corp basicly goes bankrupt or you refuse to handle the finances on your own then you could consider mergeing with a bigger corp.


Alski
Gallente
Ministers Of Destruction.
Posted - 2007.05.28 20:14:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: TheArchJudge
Edited by: TheArchJudge on 28/05/2007 20:02:37
IMO If members don't have the dedication required to participate/help in corp ops to raise money then you need to act on raising their dedication by improving gameplay. Make sure they enjoy the game as part of your corporation, then ask for dedication and ultimatly, money.

If worse comes to worse and your corp basicly goes bankrupt or you refuse to handle the finances on your own then you could consider mergeing with a bigger corp.




Quoted for truth, Though perhaps your corp needs to diversify a little to be profitable in the drone regions, such as concentrating on manufacturing and market sales to provide income.

You said you recently built your first capital ship, is there any market in producing capital ships for profit in your area? How is the mineral market up there? (its drone regions so I'm guessing it sucks) if you have someone in your corp who can fly a capital ship you can use mineral compression to bring in lots of lowend minerals from empire to resell or build out of.

Does your corp buy the drone compounds / minerals off your members? If not, it should, it can then ship them in mass quantities to empire to sell at a slightly higher price, thus providing tax.

Failing that, I can only suggest doing weekly corp rating ops where all drone compounds go to corp.

Sypher313
Amarr
VentureCorp
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2007.05.28 20:15:00 - [4]
 

Think about what is it that your corp does for its members and vice versa.

You can try "Corp Hours" each month, "Corp Drone killing" ops where all "stuff goes to the corp" etc.

What ever you do, your members have to buy into it and support it whole heartedley.
If you give them some benefit from being in your corp it makes it easier for them to "buy in".

good luck

Sha Dar
Gallente
eXceed Inc.
No Holes Barred
Posted - 2007.05.28 20:25:00 - [5]
 

The corp itself is providing 0.0 access, albeit to a crappy region, it's still way better than empire.

That comes with a price, even it's just a nominal donation or corp operation once a week say... If people aren't willing to do it you have to ask yourself, do you even want them in your corp at all ?

The corp buying minerals, and capital shipping them to empire for sale is a damn good idea, and one i have personal experience of working.

A balance of corp vs player, has to be found otherwise the corp suffers and out in 0.0, collaborative working makes things a lot easier for all.

Captain Ferros
Caldari
Expeditionary Fleet 1
Ka-Tet
Posted - 2007.05.28 20:27:00 - [6]
 

Lots of good ideas, and all been tried. (didnt help that 3 of the admirals thought it was sucky idea nd didnt push it within their department)

We do have a solid Logistics department, but the admiral of that has not been able to make it grow because he is one of the 3 fronting money for projects our Fleet Admiral push to see off the ground (he is the other that fronts money)

Admin, which finance is in, is my baby, and has very low overhead, so most of my funds go to help the other divisions.

Our Fleet Admiral does do runs back to empire with the carrier, in conjunction with the Logistics, to get minerals like trit and mex to the 0.0 outpost.

Naval Ops has been our biggest issue and money drain, since they do all the pvp, they come back to us every time their ship goes boom, and some expect us to give them a replacement without putting forth money or effort for it.

Reserves have been where most of our money comes from, they are the mission runners and remain mostly in empire..

Ive been thinking we need to increase our reserves department, and me taking some of those funds and do investments in solid companies.. IF I can clear it through the FA lol

Alski
Gallente
Ministers Of Destruction.
Posted - 2007.05.28 20:32:00 - [7]
 

Question: you say you've tryed all the ideas and they dident work, includeing the corp buying and reselling minerals, so i'm just curious how do your corp peeps profit from there drone compounds? do they move them themselfs, sell on market, or get someone else to capital jump them, etc?

Captain Ferros
Caldari
Expeditionary Fleet 1
Ka-Tet
Posted - 2007.05.28 20:38:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Captain Ferros on 28/05/2007 20:41:49
I suppose to answer that is the realzation perhaps we gave them TOO much. We are self sufficient out in 0.0, and we made sure that we were on good terms with the group that owned the outpost out there to do trades.

So what happens is this...

They see no point in selling it to us when they can sell it direclty to the outpost.

They dont see a point in helping us survive out there, cause I had done all the work to ensure that even if we got not a single dime in, we stay out there.

So few see the point in our attempts to grow, such as a goal to sustain 6 POS, to join the alliance that has so graciously hosted us, to get System superiority, to begin making our own outpost.

We have many things we give to our members.. if they willing to put in the work to get the minerals needed, we will build them a carrier or a dreadnought.

We escort any who requests it out to 0.0, even at risk to ourselves.

If someone has a specific need in mind, if they provide the BPC, and the minerals, we got people with the skills to build it out in 0.0, AND will arrange transfer out there.

The Alliance that is hosting us provides protection, to the point the danger is no worse than say .3 space

Im trying to figure out SOMETHING we can do

Serenity Steele
Caldari
Dynamic Data Distribution
Posted - 2007.05.28 20:45:00 - [9]
 

Some good suggestions above.

Something to consider is to rally your corp around a cause/plan or vision. Not a vision in terms of material goods in the game, but a vision of a role you'd like to play in the Universe.

Whether it's about the people, some space, drug dealing .. whatever, once you rally the troops around a goal, then you can better vet the membership and grow them.

In terms of finances, don't view the corp as different 'divisions'. They need to be working towards the same goal. You will always have some operating 'losing' money, and some gaining. The important thing is to sign everyone up to an agenda.

For building up corp funds to support the agenda, try getting unwanted loot, and build a core corp operation that is profitable, whether it's mineral trading or otherwise. The reality is you may well need to float the corp for a while as the CEO - if all your members are poor, then surely you own the corp for a reason?


Ademus
Gallente
Universal Army
Posted - 2007.05.28 20:58:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Ademus on 28/05/2007 20:59:30
Every good PVP corp needs a way to make money, outside of the loot they collect.

I am the CEO of a corp that exists purely to help others make money. We are an industrial corporation and we offer investment opportunities to members of our 'main' corporation and to friends outside either corp.

I run the program and people invest isk basically in me, and more recently in the people who have dedicated some time and a character to help me. Each month I tally up the profits and publish them to my shareholders, and a 25% dividend is issued to each based on their shareholding value.

Without a tremendous stroke of luck (T2 Lottery) or a good investor base, you won't be amazingly profitable in the beginning, meaning deliver handsome dividends. Further investment may be required to continue to grow. But eventually you can increase your dividend rate as your monthly profits grow.

We started off building Raven BS for profit, and eventually added other ships, including capital ship. We now build all race freighters, two race carriers, and 5 T2 modules, continuously. Getting to this point took just under a year, but it was well worth the wait, and our shareholders are very happy with their return.

Honestly, I think this is the only solution open to you. Since you cannot possibly monitor any taxes in game other than those there are a mechanic for, namely bounties and mission rewards. In the absence of those you will need to build another money making machine.

Think of something you can build, and then raise funds from your members using a share program, and use that money to acquire all that you need, and go from there. My corp is a shining example of how it is possible.

In my experience, complete transparancy is the best way to go when reporting profits and performance to your shareholders, and don't even think of pilfering, because if you are found out you will lose all your investors and then you are back to square one. Even during the early days when our profits weren't all that handsome I firmly believe that my complete honesty and trustworthiness is what has kept my investors interested. Those smart enough to see further than their nose are now reaping the rewards.

Your particular problem, though, stems from the corp not having enough isk, not your pilots. We suffered this too, and our 'main' corp wallet also invested in the program. Each month that corp also received a dividend commensurate to its shareholding. This way we aren't overly taxing our pilots to cover corp expenses, it's all managed through investment.

If you have any questions or would like to chat to me about it, hit me up in game and I would be happy to reserve some time for you to help you out if you wish. Up to you :)

I wish you luck in finding your solution to this problem (and make no mistake, it is a problem). Remember, be patient.

Kind regards
Ademus

Alski
Gallente
Ministers Of Destruction.
Posted - 2007.05.28 21:05:00 - [11]
 

Mmmm... It is indeed a tough situation, this does go to show why many corps declined the option of moving to the drone regions when they were first opened, limited options.

My corp has experienced 4 distinctly different periods of corp profitability in the last 3-4 months:

- Peacetime immediately after a relocation of corp assets: high ratting profits, next to zero market profits due to assets (blueprints) not being in place, overall profitability: good.
- Peacetime with high market activity from manufactured goods and ratting: overall profitability: sweeet!
- Wartime with high mineral reserves, no ratting: overall profitability: good.
- Wartime with *snip* all mineral reserves, no ratting, overall profitability: Bad.

What I learnt from this is A: wars are profitable when your not losing POS's and capitals left right and center, and B: a corp can survive and even prosper purely on the market with just a few people building and selling.

And that I think is probably going to be your best option (there are few to choose from), there is *always* something to sell in a 0.0 outpost market, and the prices are almost always higher, if the prices are higher because the minerals are too expensive or non-existent, then move some in yourself, build for less cost, fill the market and sell any excess mins for more profit.

I guess you could also use the capital ships to bring in and resell T2 stuff for profit, but that’s usually something most capital pilots that run the pipe do themselves anyway.

Btw, you mentioned 6 pos's as a goal?, I'm thinking "cynonet" but you may not want to answer that question Very Happy if not then are they really necessary? If they are not moon mining or researching (or capship building), then there just burning an awful lot of isk.
How is the moon mining in the drone regions anyway? If there are any rarity 64's then definitely go for them, they would help greatly.

Captain Ferros
Caldari
Expeditionary Fleet 1
Ka-Tet
Posted - 2007.05.28 21:20:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Alski
Btw, you mentioned 6 pos's as a goal?, I'm thinking "cynonet" but you may not want to answer that question Very Happy if not then are they really necessary? If they are not moon mining or researching (or capship building), then there just burning an awful lot of isk.
How is the moon mining in the drone regions anyway? If there are any rarity 64's then definitely go for them, they would help greatly.



LOL yea, the moon mining is rather decent, that is what we working on now. and the POS goal is just a step to having an outpost.

To have an outpost, need system superiority. To have SS, need to be in an alliance. For the alliance to take us, have to maintain 51% of moons of a system and work on building outpost. System we looking at has 11 moons, so need 6 POS. By proving we can maintain 6, we can try to get in, and then get rights to the system we are eyeing.

That is the ultimate goal of the corp, to build our own outpost and set us up as a anti-pirate group worthy of the name, and able to be self sufficient.

I know once we get to that step, money will flow...

its getting there that will take time

Avernus
Gallente
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2007.05.28 23:30:00 - [13]
 

There are two routes in my mind that you can take with your members.

The first is to motivate them through your managements leadership skills, it's up to you to make your members realise that a corporation isn't a free ride, that their personal efforts directly relate to the overall health of the corp.

If that doesn't work, move onto the second route... make an example of the worst slacker in your corp. Repeat step one, if people still don't get the message, you've recruited the wrong people for your corp and you need to rethink your methods for bringing people in.

Most people simply expect to be lead, if you're wishy-washy with how you deliver your expectations and needs of the corp to the members, don't expect them to respond strongly. Be very clear on what the corp needs, and what you require. If people don't rise to the occasion, they don't deserve to be in your corp.

Sidrat Flush
Caldari
Eve Industrial Corp
Posted - 2007.05.28 23:40:00 - [14]
 

Might I suggest using the intra corp contract system as well. Be it batches of minerals, batches of modules/ships whatever that way corp members can either work together to achieve the objective OR the people who don't see a return will come to you and ask why is so and so getting so much more out of the corp than me.

A really nastier way to go is via the corp share route. Wouldn't really recommend that as you don't know where the shares will end up.

Produce a mission statement of what the corporation represents, what it's aims are and the bulletin points of achieving that overall goal.

An outpost isn't to be sneezed at, and most alliances would welcome a corp who is willing to fund not only the pos's but the outpost itself as well. As long as you, YOU NOT THEY!, have the dreads to defend them.

Mistress Suffering
Amarr
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.05.29 00:46:00 - [15]
 

Perhaps the drone regions are not the best home for your corp.

My impression is that to thrive there, you need to be built around a particular industrial style.

Maybe you just need to move somewhere with ordinary rats to work with.

Onchas Erivvia
Caldari
The Ankou
Raiden.
Posted - 2007.05.29 01:43:00 - [16]
 

If you guys have access to a carrier, the best way for you to tax your members is with a monthly mineral levy.

Every two weeks or once a month require them to put into contract to a director (or to the corp directly depending on how you have your settings set-up) a certain minimum amount of minerals -- or compounds.

Refine that stuff (or if mins, skip that part obvious), build stuff to compress it down to something that travels well (there are a few options, I've usually built tractor beams), jump them down to empire in your carrier, and refine your compression product, sell the minerals.

Obviously there are variations on the theme. Build stuff there that you sell as corp sales that go into the corp wallet. Build stuff that you sell in empire. Build in empire and sell.

It doesn't have to be compounds or minerals -- you could have people ice mine for you as well (let them chose how to give you stuff). Mmmmm...ice mine. You get fuel for your POSes and your carrier.


If you're going to keep going with the escort thing, build corp asset ships out of that levy and store them in a corp hanger to be doled out to escorters and returned when the escort op is done. Stop giving people things up there that you can't build up there.

Also, make sure you also buy corp member's minerals from them who are out in 0.0 space so THEY can make isk. Buy low in your 0.0 space, sell high in Jita (or a market that doesn't suck Wink ).

For your mission runners, keep the tax and maybe up it a bit (a bit!); the rationale being that once you start getting people to hand over compounds they're going to be likely donating more to the corp than the mission runners will be. Making it so that mission running is still an option but so that it hurts a bit will encourage people to come out to 0.0 and run missions because they're FUN rather than because they're more profitable than what you've got going in 0.0.


Once you have levy's going, help people make extra money by taking their minerals and building ships in empire that you sell for profit if people think they can make more money out of it. It's easy to equate mineral donations with "share blocks" that get paid back at a certain rate. Just don't get greedy! Keep your procedures and how the money flows open and transparent for people.


I have a feeling that a straight up communist system might also be the right plan of attack for you guys if you're out in the drone regions. But I guess that depends on how much work your directors want to put into coordinating it.

Malachon Draco
Caldari
eXceeded
Posted - 2007.05.29 08:35:00 - [17]
 

We use a system we call isk/alloy (and before going to the drone regions, it was isk/ore).

Basically it means you set a price on each alloy, X percent below Empire market price, where X is your taxrate roughly. Every member in the corp is required to sell the alloys at that price to the corp, who then takes care of refining and transport to empire for sale. That way you get a cut of the drone regions revenue from members in proportion to what they mine themselves, just like ratting in other regions.

Betty Business
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2007.05.29 12:09:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Malachon Draco
We use a system we call isk/alloy (and before going to the drone regions, it was isk/ore).

Basically it means you set a price on each alloy, X percent below Empire market price, where X is your taxrate roughly. Every member in the corp is required to sell the alloys at that price to the corp, who then takes care of refining and transport to empire for sale. That way you get a cut of the drone regions revenue from members in proportion to what they mine themselves, just like ratting in other regions.



Can this system work in empire? I mean, it seems like members would just end up selling to market for the slightly higher payout. Besides integrity and desire to see the corp grow, maybe ill offer some kind of profit sharing for people who donate/sell mins, but that will require me to keep track of who gives what. On to more tedious things >.< anyone who has any advice on this thing, but based in empire, feel free to mail me in-game.

Ackaroth
Gallente
Plundering Penguins
Anarchy.
Posted - 2007.05.29 12:26:00 - [19]
 

Above is me >.< damn alt

Malachon Draco
Caldari
eXceeded
Posted - 2007.05.29 12:45:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Malachon Draco on 29/05/2007 12:45:01
Originally by: Betty Business
Originally by: Malachon Draco
We use a system we call isk/alloy (and before going to the drone regions, it was isk/ore).

Basically it means you set a price on each alloy, X percent below Empire market price, where X is your taxrate roughly. Every member in the corp is required to sell the alloys at that price to the corp, who then takes care of refining and transport to empire for sale. That way you get a cut of the drone regions revenue from members in proportion to what they mine themselves, just like ratting in other regions.



Can this system work in empire? I mean, it seems like members would just end up selling to market for the slightly higher payout. Besides integrity and desire to see the corp grow, maybe ill offer some kind of profit sharing for people who donate/sell mins, but that will require me to keep track of who gives what. On to more tedious things >.< anyone who has any advice on this thing, but based in empire, feel free to mail me in-game.


Well, the system assumes living in 0.0 I admit, and with more and more people using carriers it gets a bit more problematic. One thing you could offer is to use an alt that has perfect refining skills and perhaps even the standing to lose the refine tax that NPC corps use. That way you could enable people to use your system without losing much, while you can 'skim' the tax and refining waste that they would have if they refined themselves for the corp.

Aside from that, the attractiveness could be if you guaranteed buying the minerals, that way the easiest way for them to convert ore to cash fast could be to sell it to you instead of hauling it around themselves. Particularly smaller miners in remote empire systems might be attracted to sell to you if you for example have a freighter to move the trit around and they don't.

But you're right, the system we use is designed for 0.0.



Le Cardinal
Caldari
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2007.05.29 12:47:00 - [21]
 

Fundings for corp is always a problem, unless u have a strong industrial backbone. Maybe more so in drone regions.

However, the question is not only what u can do for ur members, but also what ur members can do for your corp.

Arrange corp "mining" ops. Get ur guys together and do it as a team. The minerals u get from it can be sold in empire or used to build stuff. The corp provides ur members with a place to live and a place where they can earn isk. So its only fair to expect something back. Ppl that are only after own gain will never be a loyal contributor to ur corp and hence u can manage without them. Helping ur corp to grow shouldnt be an option, it should be a requirement.

1 thing is important tho. When they contribute to such ops they have to see this bearing fruits.

Sicori Malaki
Caldari
Thundercats
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.05.30 04:39:00 - [22]
 

I dont know anything about your corp, but your obviously in 0.0.

By what I have read your "corp members" are taking advantage of being in your corp, they get relatively free access to 0.0 to profit from but dont give anything back, the pvpers are greedy ****ers who want to have fun at your expense. they want to blow stuff up but dont want to pay for the stuff they loose.

Weekly corp ops is the most basic way for a corp to increase its wallet. since your in the drone regions then it does present a predicament regarding the tax. If you were in any other region where you get bounty for killing NPC's you could just have ratting day and put corp tax to 100%, but since your in the drone regions that wont work. You can have corp mining ops or corp drone hunting op where everything goes to the corp. but unless the majority of your 0.0 residents have good mining skills, kill drones, gather alloys.

If members ain't participating in the corp ops, or they aren't doing anything for the corp then kick them from the corp. If your too soft on them they will take advantage of it.

Few hours of work dedicated to the corp shouldn't really be a problem for anyone who is in a 0.0 based corporation, if it's a problem then that member better be a damn good pvper or have other skills to supplement his lack of devotion to the corp's obvious need of funds.

Ackaroth
Gallente
Plundering Penguins
Anarchy.
Posted - 2007.05.30 06:54:00 - [23]
 

1st: Anyone notice how many people in this thread have thanatos' in their sig banner?

2nd: Thanks for this advice guys. I am tossing around various ideas to try to get a mineral/loot buying program going, and maybe some sort of way of tracking activity for a sort of profit sharing.


 

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