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ZeroForce
Posted - 2007.05.28 00:30:00 - [121]
 

*snip* Don't troll -Eldo

Malloc Memrel
Posted - 2007.05.28 00:33:00 - [122]
 

So, the answer seems fairly pat, which is good. But it begs the followup question of why no attempts at communication were made in the first place? Why wouldn't Sharkbait let the CEO of the company he was insinuating himself into- at the highest level, no less- know what he was doing? And why were subsequent attempts at clarification not responded to? You've asserted it is impossible for petitions to be deleted, so the only conclusion one can draw from that is that the petition either never existed in the first place, meaning the Darkstar 1 CEO is a liar, or the petition was filed and was subsequently ignored.

I cannot understand the corporate-level policy that would ever let a situation like this even exist in the first place. Are there no tools to allow Developers to do their work invisibly? Why would sharkbait's personal character be used for such an operation? Why would a CEO's query into the actions of another player (With developer access, no less) be casually dismissed?

Teldan Powers
Posted - 2007.05.28 00:34:00 - [123]
 

*snip* Removed ref to deleted content -Eldo ([email protected])

phillie blunt
Live And Let Die
Posted - 2007.05.28 00:38:00 - [124]
 

so the goons lied? not a surprise tbh

ZeroForce
Posted - 2007.05.28 00:40:00 - [125]
 

*snip* Don't troll -Eldo

Popsikle
Minmatar
Caffeine Commodities Company
Posted - 2007.05.28 00:42:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Orst Rhaellia
Edited by: Orst Rhaellia on 28/05/2007 00:28:55
Two comments:
1) When in ASCN i remember one of the devs (?sharkbait) ALSO joining our corp and assinging roles for the right reasons. we had posted about a bugged POS and he was fixing said POS. However he DID ask permission first. I even have a screen shot somewhere of him being in my Corp in his Polaris frig :)


2) My beef on this: I dont care (sorry Pyrex) whether he DID do something or not. thats going to either be covered up (which seems to be the normal routine) or wont have actually happened. Several goon members are forum banned, appropriatly, for forum spamming. But WHY were they forced to go threadnaught on the forums? Because every post, LIKE with the t20 situation would disapear instantly. I raised my issue with this then, i emailed CCP on this issue twice, both times with the same response, essentially if its "bad for the community" we can delete it.

I personally created at least 2 seperate threads on the issue of "disappearing threads" during the t20. both deleted instantly.

THIS is MY beef: If you claim that you are all for openness and honesty and IA is actually going to work, WHY does it take a threadnaught response to ACTUALLY get something admitted or investigated. That is not only unreasonable, it also potentially shows a bias! If you (CM, GM, Dev Et al.) were for example in RL; someone stole **** from you through corporate theft, you went to the police, fbi etc etc (whatever country your in)...and they tore up the formal complaint form in front of your eyes...how would you feel!?

Basically; go a LITTLE easier on topics such as this. concentrating it to a single thread, fine...Deleting ALL threads (the single thread was created LATE in the incident after Threadnaught had been in full swing)...NOT fine. I personally dont like it. I know Goons clearly didnt...nor did the community.... Think guys.,...Seriously THINK whether clicking that little delete button is going to be BENEFICIAL or not!

-Orst
(it should say ARS D on it..will fix my posting)

Edit 2: DS1 and ARS D are both GS flagged but for various reasons. I would hardly say any of us are "Frig crazy"....we were both absent for said tactics. Infact to my knowledge, ds1 pilots ALMOST never fly anything smaller than a BS!



Did anyone from GS try the appropriate method? Emailing IA department first? Everyone knows that CCP tend to be a bit draconic when it comes to moderation of the forums, but everyone should also know (at least by now) that if you think a dev/mod/gm is up to no good to email [email protected] or whatever the email addy is...

I dont want to hear boo about why the THREADNAUGHT and the spamming was needed unless someone emailed IA first and didnt get an appropriate answer.

Sentinel Eeex
Caldari
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.05.28 00:43:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Crux Australis
Ahhahahhahahhahahaha !!!

Owwwwwneeedddd innnnn daaaaa faaaaace !!!!!

LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing


So, you threw 50 serious insults in another thread, saying you don't care if you get banned - and you are actually NOT banned?

And people were getting banned for much much less? Shocked

Thank you CCP. I think you don't need to bother anymore, we're getting the picture.

Phrixus Zephyr
MEK Enterprises
Posted - 2007.05.28 00:44:00 - [128]
 

Ignoring some of the more rediculous theories and tediously biased opinions from both sides for a moment.

This particular issue could have been sorted very simply. Telling DS1 what was happening, answering them when they asked why it happened, talking to them at least once while it was being investigated.

Blanket censorship is what brought this on and nothing else. The first time it happened turned up spawned BPO's, can you really blame everyone for being suspicious when history starts to repeat itself?

Susan Acid
Posted - 2007.05.28 00:44:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: Gilbert Drillerson
By talking to all our directors we have been unable to find anyone owning up to a petition from May 6. If it wouldnt be too much to ask, I would humbly ask that CCP makes a contact to our formal CEO character and reveal to him what the petition was about and who made it.

As it is right now, we have NO way of confirming this and no knowledge of any petition filed may 6. It may very well be a true story as we have almost 200 members, but given the amount of drama around this issue, I think we should follow through and get all the mystery revealed.

Gil
CO-CEO Darkstar 1


It could be anyone of your members, or anyone of the other 180,000 accounts that play this game. Someone could have noticed your POS shields werent active but couldn't enter the POS, or someone could have been complaining they cant shoot the POS, or hell it might not even be POS related. Someone might have been complaining they tried to apply and got an error or soemthing, who know really.

If they release that information to you they are breaking their privacy policy. And thats bad.


So a GM can join any Corp he likes.Whenever he likes.Assign himself any roles he likes.And he doesn't have to tell anybody why he did it?Even the CEO?
That's nice.Shocked

Mahahahasdsa
Posted - 2007.05.28 00:45:00 - [130]
 

Edited by: Mahahahasdsa on 28/05/2007 00:44:51

Orst Rhaellia
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.05.28 00:46:00 - [131]
 

Edited by: Orst Rhaellia on 28/05/2007 00:57:23
Cause im a nub

Sharkbait doing his job

From my earlier post about 10 go.

He is actually DOING his job legitamitly....my question is; why he did it then so properly...yet this time he didnt notify anyone. then he d

Edit2: due to me being a photoshop nub:
Bigger Shark

Crux Australis
Reikoku
KenZoku
Posted - 2007.05.28 00:49:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Crux Australis on 28/05/2007 00:48:07
Originally by: Sentinel Eeex
Originally by: Crux Australis
Ahhahahhahahhahahaha !!!

Owwwwwneeedddd innnnn daaaaa faaaaace !!!!!

LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing


So, you threw 50 serious insults in another thread, saying you don't care if you get banned - and you are actually NOT banned?

And people were getting banned for much much less? Shocked

Thank you CCP. I think you don't need to bother anymore, we're getting the picture.



*snip* please dont flamebait - Karass Sayfo

Shivalla
Gallente
Financial Removal
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2007.05.28 00:52:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Orst Rhaellia
Cause im a nub

Sharkbait doing his job

From my earlier post about 10 go.

He is actually DOING his job legitamitly....my question is; why he did it then so properly...yet this time he didnt notify anyone. then he d


Can you please tell me what it says. I cannot seem to see properly.

AND: If this is how it was done. Goons should kick DS1 out of the fricking Alliance for making this kind of crap happen.

The whole community was shocked, and for what? A blatant lies about petitions deleted and it all boils down to a ISD getting booted, as it seems it was a friend of goons, and was bumping dreads in polaris frig, and wouldnt leave (which he should when asked) from system when asked, and then he got FIRED, and started his OWN mission against CCP, claiming CCP has events rigged etc...

AMAZING JOB DS1!

Totally.

Ciras Shelby
Posted - 2007.05.28 00:53:00 - [134]
 

I've never seen anything like this mess in any MMO I've ever played.

There is a way to keep these things from EVER happening.

Devs simply should never, ever, intermingle with the player base. Period.

And now you have everyone in an uproar except members of BoB who, of course, naturally desire to keep the status quo and CCP who must find a way to rebuild an already damaged reputation.

Marcus TheDealer
Posted - 2007.05.28 00:53:00 - [135]
 

Edited by: Marcus TheDealer on 28/05/2007 00:54:18
Originally by: CCP kieron
Originally by: Fofalus
Also the response to the deleted petition a separate issue or is just being buried with this one?

It is not possible for a GM or Developer to delete petitions. Those tools quite simply, do not exist. Claims of petitions being deleted are therefore utter fabrication and completely groundless.



Strange - is Sharkbait a Database Administrator Kieron?
If so, a database administrator can delete a petition if it is the database - correct?
So I do believe your statement as a GM or Developer is correct but a database administrator can, so your last part is false. There are built in tools to delete stuff in the database. So you are carefully wording your comments or you do not know what you are talking about.

ZeroForce
Posted - 2007.05.28 00:57:00 - [136]
 

probably both

Phrixus Zephyr
MEK Enterprises
Posted - 2007.05.28 00:58:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Shivalla
The whole community was shocked, and for what? A blatant lies about petitions deleted and it all boils down to a ISD getting booted, as it seems it was a friend of goons, and was bumping dreads in polaris frig, and wouldnt leave (which he should when asked) from system when asked, and then he got FIRED, and started his OWN mission against CCP, claiming CCP has events rigged etc...

AMAZING JOB DS1!

Totally.

Wow, i don't think I've seen such an incredibly warped view of the events yet.

Some of the accusation on here are rediculous but that is so twisted i feel compelled to post again.

Fdjhbsasgfdsdfgfdsrethbg
Posted - 2007.05.28 00:59:00 - [138]
 

I find it hard to believe that such basic functionality like deleting petitions/removing petitions from a support queue don't exist in the eve backend.

But given all the other dodgey stuff in here lately, I guess it's possible.

So what we have here is a Bob alt spy petitioned something because he couldn't cause mischief he intended, and his CCP pal came in and fixed it for him.

Nice.

Teldan Powers
Posted - 2007.05.28 01:00:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Marcus TheDealer
Strange - is Sharkbait a Database Administrator Kieron?
If so, a database administrator can delete a petition if it is the database - correct?
So I do believe your statement as a GM or Developer is correct but a database administrator can, so your last part is false. There are built in tools to delete stuff in the database. So you are carefully wording your comments or you do not know what you are talking about.
I would imagine that anyone with the level of database access required to delete a petition without a trace could also
1) Join and leave a corporation without sending a mail message to the CEO
2) Query out absolutely any kind of information from the database that they wanted to know without having to join any particular corp to get it in-game

Having said that, it does seem reasonable for QA or other devs to send an explicit corp email after joining in order to explain why they're there. I would certainly support asking CCP to make this kind of policy change.

Phrixus Zephyr
MEK Enterprises
Posted - 2007.05.28 01:01:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 28/05/2007 01:00:23
Originally by: Fdjhbsasgfdsdfgfdsrethbg
I find it hard to believe that such basic functionality like deleting petitions/removing petitions from a support queue don't exist in the eve backend.

Reasonable

But given all the other dodgey stuff in here lately, I guess it's possible.

Slipping

So what we have here is a Bob alt spy petitioned something because he couldn't cause mischief he intended, and his CCP pal came in and fixed it for him.

WOAH TINFOIL!!!1

Nice.

Candy
Geese Jugglers
Posted - 2007.05.28 01:02:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Malloc Memrel
meaning the Darkstar 1 CEO is a liar, or the petition was filed and was subsequently ignored.


What about the possibility that the petition was filed, addressed, and because of CCP's own policies it can't be discussed on the forums?

Why are you giving so much credit to the members of DS1? We know for a fact at this point that they were trying to insinuate something they knew to be false. That's called lying. Because of this, I'm more inclined to believe that there was a communication and it's being selectively ignored by DS1.

When a GM couldn't solve some obscure problem through the tools provided, a developer looked into the problem and managed to resolve it.

Grox
Posted - 2007.05.28 01:02:00 - [142]
 

gjob cant wait for the other answer;s.
this will happen everytime somthing can even be a lil bit questionable, ccp;s credibility and the underlying sentiment bob;s work in ccp and devs play with them and there pets will always remain:/ put some devs in the northern coalition i guess and make it fair,, or bring m0o baCK and kill us all plz,

Counterparty
Posted - 2007.05.28 01:06:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Marcus TheDealer

There are built in tools to delete stuff in the database. So you are carefully wording your comments or you do not know what you are talking about.


Which enterprise grade databases do you administer?? You can't just right click 'Empty Trash'. These systems are designed to not lose data. Changing tables leaves a audit log and revision histories keep the past data.

Erasing that, without leaving a trace that anything was erased, while keeping the system in production mode, is impossible.

I believe Sharkbait is content, not operations.

Ediz Daxx
FinFleet
Posted - 2007.05.28 01:10:00 - [144]
 

So two swings and two misses by the goonies and they just cant let it rest. I bet it will go from, CCP is corrupt to CCP is covering up. If you cant trust the people in charge of a video game how the hell do you trust people at power in your own country. If you dont trust the people at power in your own country then its time you start prioritizing(sp?) on which is more important.

Marcus TheDealer
Posted - 2007.05.28 01:10:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Counterparty
Originally by: Marcus TheDealer

There are built in tools to delete stuff in the database. So you are carefully wording your comments or you do not know what you are talking about.


Which enterprise grade databases do you administer?? You can't just right click 'Empty Trash'. These systems are designed to not lose data. Changing tables leaves a audit log and revision histories keep the past data.

Erasing that, without leaving a trace that anything was erased, while keeping the system in production mode, is impossible.

I believe Sharkbait is content, not operations.


Hehe 'empty trash' that is a good one.
Maybe surf the net and read up on SQL - you can try it at home with your machine if you wish - go into the system events and delete your logs - but you have to be an admistrator to do it - and it can be done 'on the fly' :)

Flaming Lemming
Caldari
Puppeteer Press
Posted - 2007.05.28 01:11:00 - [146]
 

From the big thread, seems more appropriate here.

Originally by: Flaming Lemming


Well then, IF Sharkbait had informed the CEO via Eve-mail that he was joining to do whatever..as appears to be policy, or if someone had given DS1 this info in response to their petition, then the *appearance* of impropriety would have been avoided...and after the T20 incident, even the appearance of impropriety should be something CCP desperately tries to avoid.

Of course, that still leaves the other topics raised.



ssorion
Caldari
Orion Researching n Development
Zzz
Posted - 2007.05.28 01:17:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari
I assume he's saying that nobody but the database admin can delete petitions. And that the people involved aren't database admins.

Arent they ?
Lets see.
GS questioned behavior of two CCP staff members, 'CCP Sharkbait' and 'CCP Admiral Chamrajnagar'. Not sure on the 1st one, i believe he is either developer or IT-related admin, but second IS database admin. He claimed that himself in his ingame bio, and on eve-o forums numerous times.

Kala amortis
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.05.28 01:19:00 - [148]
 

Edited by: Kala amortis on 28/05/2007 01:19:59
Originally by: Candy
Originally by: Malloc Memrel
meaning the Darkstar 1 CEO is a liar, or the petition was filed and was subsequently ignored.


What about the possibility that the petition was filed, addressed, and because of CCP's own policies it can't be discussed on the forums?

Why are you giving so much credit to the members of DS1? We know for a fact at this point that they were trying to insinuate something they knew to be false. That's called lying. Because of this, I'm more inclined to believe that there was a communication and it's being selectively ignored by DS1.

When a GM couldn't solve some obscure problem through the tools provided, a developer looked into the problem and managed to resolve it.


there was no communication between ccp an ds1 as ccp stated but ccp would of stated sharkbaits mail ds1 ceo if he had in order to end this messs
ds1 tried petions convo and mails to ask what happened which i am sure ccp can comfirm
and what reason do u have to believe ds1 is lying to us?
i mean we know ccp has lied and made miss statements in the past and any1 can see the new 1s today....if ccp would quit trying to cover up suppres and hide stuff like a 3rd world ruler...i would be more inclined to believe them

Elspeth Vigneron
Caldari
Phoenix Logistics Industries
Posted - 2007.05.28 01:26:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Merc998
Kieron.

If, as I think we can all agree Sharkbait was doing legitmate business within DS1.



Devils Advocate (former policeman and forensic auditor): BoB alt/BoB spy sends a covering petition. GM Sharkbait has "legitimate" reason to "investigate" the POS "problem." Cover story made. Cover story holds.

I note that the petition itself hasn't been released. Who is to say the petition existed or was made by a legitimate player within the target corp? There simply is no evidence to clear Sharkbait. Despite the spin.

I think that only the release of the petition and the affirmation of the player can clear Sharkbait now.



Quote:
Given the current mistrust of CCP and the very high concerns over CCP employees relationships with BoB since the T20 affair, Do you not agree it was crass stupidity of the highest order for a CCP employee to appoint himself a director of a corps currently at war with BoB, without letting the CEO of that corps what was happening.

Even more do you agree it was bordering on negligent to "LOSE" the petition asking why the DEV had appointed himself director(wether deleted or closed without a response) when it must have been apparent to even the biggest dullard that doing so would create this situation.


That, of course, was incredibly stupid. However, CCP needs to learn that to have public trust, there can not even be the hint to the lack of independence. They need a code of conduct along the lines of many professional organizations, for example, this comes from my current profession:

Section 100 - Independence, Integrity, and Objectivity
http://www.aicpa.org/about/code/sec100.htm

But even more troubling is the how some person, or persons, kept (apparently) sweeping this problem under the rug. It should have been dealt with honestly. It, apparently, wasn't, until in the mind of the Goonies, it was a clear case of GM/Developer misconduct.


Quote:
In retrospect can we agree that this was handled with a degree of care that we wouldnt expect from a 5 year old much less professionals running a highly succesful MMPORG


I would agree with that. I think CCP needs to adopt a much higher level of professional conduct.

First, no more playing in PC corps. Second, no more in-game contacts/help with friends in PC corps. Third, not even hints of a lack of independence, objectivity or integrity; professionals, in and out of the MMORPG world, on a world-wide basis have to live that way, no reason for the people at CCP to get a pass. Fourth, there needs to be a process by where people who believe GMs are not being forthright or honest can take thier grievences directly to CCP; an ombudsman, if you will.

Flaming Lemming
Caldari
Puppeteer Press
Posted - 2007.05.28 01:27:00 - [150]
 

btw, is this:

Originally by: MotherMoon
Edited by: MotherMoon on 26/05/2007 08:12:53
"For pure hilarity, I petitioned about GM policy concerning the allegations, that they should keep their trap shut until the investigation has been carried out.

Guess who responded to my petition

Yep.

Edit: Yes that's right, dev conduct by GM Kutsu is being handled by.....GM Kutsu."


proper?



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