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Nox Solaris
Posted - 2007.05.29 12:48:00 - [301]
 

Yes. GMs, Devs, Bug Hunters, and everyone else connected with how Eve runs should be in the actual game itself as 'players'... how else to see how things are actually functioning and being used then to be BBQ'd by some unforseen use of some creation?

Akiman
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.05.29 13:06:00 - [302]
 

what if they are not allowed? they can play at home... and i dont believe they care what we are saying... if i gotta say something...they can play jovians or their own alliances tho again it wont make a difference... good man is good. bad man is bad. and i smell something bad from here.im still thinking bout suspending or not. even tho i love the game.

Gee Lok
Posted - 2007.05.29 13:08:00 - [303]
 

I think it is great that devs and GMs play eve so that they intimately know their product.

tbh eve would be crap otherwise.

Ben Nato
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2007.05.29 13:08:00 - [304]
 

Originally by: Roshan longshot
This is their game...they can do what they want to...I only wonder if you all complained and cried this hard when you played WoW?







Another dillusional person who will buy a T.V without caring about it breaking. Good going.

Roshan longshot
Gallente
Ordos Humanitas
Posted - 2007.05.29 13:50:00 - [305]
 

Wow look at all these alts....Rolling Eyes You got somthing to say about CCP? Post with your main! And use the corp and alliance settings so we know who you are.

Like I said before dont like it, leave...there is the door right over there. Dont let it hit you on the arse...





Thesas
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2007.05.29 13:55:00 - [306]
 

Originally by: Roshan longshot
Wow look at all these alts....Rolling Eyes You got somthing to say about CCP? Post with your main! And use the corp and alliance settings so we know who you are.

Like I said before dont like it, leave...there is the door right over there. Dont let it hit you on the arse...



Hiding oneís head in the sand is dangerous, as you invite anyone to come along and mess with your bottom.

Saladin
Minmatar
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.05.29 14:45:00 - [307]
 

I'll keep this simple - No I don't think they should anymore.

Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
Posted - 2007.05.29 14:45:00 - [308]
 

Originally by: Roshan longshot
But just leave the game is a better way of showing your distrust in CCP.


Better than a public outcry? ORLY? :) By what logic? Because some fanboi says so?


ry ry
Heroes.
Merciless.
Posted - 2007.05.29 14:47:00 - [309]
 

It amuses me that so many of you spend so much time telling anybody who will listen how you absolutely don't trust CCP, a company you've handed your credit card details over to.

but then i think CCP have Eve's (and indirectly, our) best interests at heart, even if they **** it up occasionally. so i'm not overly fussed.

Roshan longshot
Gallente
Ordos Humanitas
Posted - 2007.05.29 14:53:00 - [310]
 

Originally by: Pan Crastus
Originally by: Roshan longshot
But just leave the game is a better way of showing your distrust in CCP.


Better than a public outcry? ORLY? :) By what logic? Because some fanboi says so?




Fanboi me...naw my sub ends on the 19th of next month. What about yours mr alt?

Just leave. recycle all your toons, unistall eve, and leave.




Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2007.05.29 14:55:00 - [311]
 

Originally by: Cypherous
Originally by: CrestoftheStars

So I say:
No they should not be in the game as a player.
And I say:
YES they should remove there character so they can concentrate on what we are giving them the money for.



The problem is they are not mutially exclusive, they can't program and improve a game they aren't playing as they will just make unbalanced changes, the facts of life are they need to be able to play and they shouldn't be banned from playing just because they have access to these high level tools.


QFT, only problem with having a game that's 1 universe, 1 server. But oh well.

Popoi
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.05.29 15:16:00 - [312]
 

Edited by: Popoi on 29/05/2007 15:20:55
Edited by: Popoi on 29/05/2007 15:15:04
I don't really buy the "They need to play to balance the game" argument. They have a whole server that they can use test things without compromising the live game. Combined with volunteers from the actual playerbase ("form a gang of 15 with your usual setups, and come kill this gang of developers"), there's not a lot about the real game they can't simulate. The bonus about that method of player experience is that it completely avoids the potential conflicts of interest that come from giving Devs/GMs a social role in the game.

There are basically two solutions to prevent a conflict of interest: A total ban on personal interaction with the game , or strong internal controls to enforce a partition between personal and professional behavior. The cat's already out of the bag on the former, and the public side of CCP's investigations hasn't given me a whole lot of confidence that they can pull off the latter.

Liam Money
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.05.29 15:25:00 - [313]
 

I think Devs and GM's should be allowed to play the game for the interest of research and further development, however they should not be allowed to be part of a player corp or alliance, there is a conflict of interest for them to stay unbiased and "research" the game.

Give the GM's and Devs their own corp, they can run ops, set up towers, take space, lose space, pirate, or whatever. This would give them a full understanding of the game of EVE without having the incentive to "tinker" with the game in any way in which to further the interests of a player corp.

Royaldo
Gallente
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.
Sev3rance
Posted - 2007.05.29 15:28:00 - [314]
 



NO, they should not play on tq.

Sam Reynolds
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.05.29 18:18:00 - [315]
 

I posted my thoughts on this here, but I'll share it again since it's relevant.

Quote:
And proposals that devs shouldn't be able to play the game they created? Give me a break - if anyone with that thought in their head is even capable of slinging code (I am), how fun would it be to create such a great game and not be able to experience it yourself? I could see dev (and associated role) churn happening at a high level, which always leads to a compromised product. I am glad that employees USE THE PRODUCT and are passionate enough about it to always be improving it, because they want to see it improved.


Krulla
Minmatar
Miner Protection Guild
Posted - 2007.05.29 19:40:00 - [316]
 

Originally by: Sam Reynolds
I posted my thoughts on this here, but I'll share it again since it's relevant.

Quote:
And proposals that devs shouldn't be able to play the game they created? Give me a break - if anyone with that thought in their head is even capable of slinging code (I am), how fun would it be to create such a great game and not be able to experience it yourself? I could see dev (and associated role) churn happening at a high level, which always leads to a compromised product. I am glad that employees USE THE PRODUCT and are passionate enough about it to always be improving it, because they want to see it improved.




Careful. They don't much like intelligent posting here. It appearantly makes you a BoB alt. I'd be careful 'round these parts if I were you!

ho chiminh
Gallente
SlackaNova
Posted - 2007.05.29 20:30:00 - [317]
 

Originally by: Liam Money
I think Devs and GM's should be allowed to play the game for the interest of research and further development, however they should not be allowed to be part of a player corp or alliance, there is a conflict of interest for them to stay unbiased and "research" the game.

Give the GM's and Devs their own corp, they can run ops, set up towers, take space, lose space, pirate, or whatever. This would give them a full understanding of the game of EVE without having the incentive to "tinker" with the game in any way in which to further the interests of a player corp.


Yeah Great, give them their own corp. Of course a CCP employee with insider knowledge of Eve and how it runs etc would NEVER CREATE AN ALT to profit from that knowledge.

TBH though, if one were dedicated one could work 8 hours and then go home and play for 8 hours with an alt or a separate account.

Bottom line you can't keep game creator employees from playing game, in Eve or any other game. Best you can do is police 'em and live with the results.

Gorken
Fire House Industries
Posted - 2007.05.29 21:00:00 - [318]
 

Upset?: Well, yeah.

Quitting?: Going to set a long skill and take a break for awhile. Check on how all this unfolds in the mean time.

Should they play in the game?: Of course they should! However, the customer's trust and respect doesn't mean much to them apparently as they have shown through their own actions.

Do you like the the Game?: Best MMO I've played in many ways, yet the disrespect for the customer ruins the best game. It just seems that some of the devs play & create the world of EVE only for themselves, with the customers as their tolerated lap-dogs that they allow in their virtual world. I don't think that of all, just a few.


Trevedian
Amarr
Shaolin Monks
Posted - 2007.05.29 22:01:00 - [319]
 

I really think this is witch hunt is ridiculous...

Sharkbait was just doing his job!

Of course CCP employees, GM's, ISD, should be allowed to actually play the game they are responsible for creating, updating, modifying, and maintaining.

Players that believe that CCP should have no involvement on Tranquility fail to grasp that THIS IS A GAME. Chastizing people who are just doing their job when you don't understand things could be very destructive to someones career and livelyhood.

EVE is an incredibly complicated game and has evolved in ways (i'm sure) that no one imagined. CCP employees need to be involved as directly as they can be in order to provide the best product for their clientele. EVE is a great game that has provided me with years of enjoyment, I'd hate to see a scandal orchestrated by scaremongers hurt its reputation.

Dravisain
Minmatar
Prime Order
Posted - 2007.05.29 22:22:00 - [320]
 

The problem is the few individuals that ruined it for the rest of us in the game.

Like the tech II BPOs in BoB (without going into it further) that may have caused some monetary and unfair advantage. Intelelligence gathering, many claim to have been gleamed from developers. Others with chat convos of the future of inventions, so sell the tech II BPOs right away because they will become useless. Whether true or not, tarnishes the reputation of CCP

I think being able to spawn BPOs was a really bad example of GM powers being abused. it was worst when he wasn't fired. that is just sending a bad signal to the players betrayed by this action. (Remember, for every advancement an alliance makes in 0.0, some other alliance had to be defeated)

They should be allowed to play however. But limited and monitored. The policy should be clear, any abuse and You are FIRED!

That is where T2 went wrong. He was just a gui delveloper, he deserved the boot. CCP should still fire someone willing to ruin the game and cheat for the advancedment of his alliance.

Hell, if buying isk with money is bad; buying a character on ebay is a banable offense. What should be the punishment for spawning tech II BPOs that generate BILLIONS of isk in income.

The rule should be clear, YOURE FIRED!

So let them play, but with short leash. Otherwise limit developers to test server only. And GMs to have every incident of spawning tech II BPOS, faction ships, +4 implants LOGGED and reviewed on a weekly basis.

there is nothign much we can do to limit their intel for their alliances, bummer.

ssorion
Caldari
Orion Researching n Development
Zzz
Posted - 2007.05.29 23:39:00 - [321]
 

Originally by: Trevedian
Players that believe that CCP should have no involvement on Tranquility fail to grasp that THIS IS A GAME. Chastizing people who are just doing their job when you don't understand things could be very destructive to someones career and livelyhood.

EVE is an incredibly complicated game and has evolved in ways (i'm sure) that no one imagined. CCP employees need to be involved as directly as they can be in order to provide the best product for their clientele. EVE is a great game that has provided me with years of enjoyment, I'd hate to see a scandal orchestrated by scaremongers hurt its reputation.


This is NOT a game. This is MMO business, and people pay money here. CCP provide services here.
Employes should WORK instead PLAYING the game.
Work may involve 'testing' or even some game-playing, but only from employee of CCP point of view.
Providing good services and being 'too involved' are contradicting statements. When developer get 'too involved', he start to play instead of working. Including so-called 'meta play', involving using his developer capabilities to aid his and his alliance clause. If developer only fly capships in 0.0, how could he improove empire ? Or mining ? Or 'support'-class ships ? Being tooo involved in his alliance warfare, he knows NOTHING about how other parts of game works.

Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Umbra Synergy
Posted - 2007.05.29 23:53:00 - [322]
 

Originally by: ssorion

This is NOT a game. This is MMO business, and people pay money here. CCP provide services here.
Employes should WORK instead PLAYING the game.
yeah cause everyone at ccp is expected to work 23/7, downtime is just there so they can sleep

Chelone
Outside The Asylum
Posted - 2007.05.29 23:55:00 - [323]
 

Originally by: ssorion
If developer only fly capships in 0.0, how could he improove empire ? Or mining ? Or 'support'-class ships ? Being tooo involved in his alliance warfare, he knows NOTHING about how other parts of game works.


You have made a very good (unintended) point. If devs play only in 0.0 alliances, they won't have a balanced or helpful perspective. If someone believes devs should play for the good of the game, then for the good of the game, let's assign them most or all possible roles:

Empire miner
Lowsec miner
0.0 miner
Empire mission runner
Lowsec mission runner
0.0 mission runner
Empire trader
etc, etc.

Some roles could overlap where appropriate. If devs need to play the game, they need to play ALL of it, and play from the perspective of improving the game rather than cheating to help themselves (as is constantly SUSPECTED at least.)

Malloc Memrel
Posted - 2007.05.30 00:33:00 - [324]
 

Crossposted from the "other" thread, I think this sums up nicely the reasons for insisting on invisibility of developers on the public server:

Originally by: Malloc Memrel
By way of anecdote since I ran out of room last post, we used to joke about an associate of mine at Blizzard having "Magic Dice". As is common in large dungeon crawls, the best loot would be "rolled" for by asking the system's random number generator for a number between one and a hundred, with the highest roller being allowed to take the most coveted items. This employee would almost always win the rolls. It didn't matter if the next highest roll was nine or ninety, he'd win it most of the time.

When he played on the public servers, his guildmates gave him good-natured grief about it- "Argh, you lucky son of a~!Mad"- but they just chalked it up to him being really lucky, as some people simply are.

Think, for a second, what their reaction would be if they knew he was a developer? Would it be so easy to pass his consistent good fortune off with the knowledge that he knows the people who designed the random number generator? Would it be impossible to concieve that he knew, somehow, how to fix the dice? Even if it was the farthest thing from the truth, there'd be the suspicion, and it wouldn't be unreasonable, which is why he's never told anyone outside the company anything about his character, his guild, anything, ever. His guildmates have no reason to suspect him because they have no idea they're playing with a Blizzard employee. Nobody ever has any idea that they're playing with Blizzard employees, not even to each other. I've heard of Blizzard people who went to guild meets incognito and discovered that their co-workers have been right there in their guild with them for months and months without even realizing it, so total was the secrecy.

I think EVE as a whole needs a new set of blinders put on it, one that obscures all vision between the customer side of the line and the corporate side of the line. Mixing the two is a pandora's box that has, is, and will inevitably lead to more public outcries over accusations of impropriety which ultimately hurt the company as a whole. I don't know how things are in Europe, but stateside the video game industry is one big incestuous family where everybody knows everybody else. How many times will "EVE Scandal!" have to appear on the front page of Slashdot before the company becomes a Resume' Stain? We're at twice, and that's pushing it already.


Of course, the problem in only bringing it up now is that in order to actually fix the problem, every internal character would have to be wiped clean. I don't mean renamed, as that would be too easy to figure out- in a game like this, there's pretty much only one conclusion to come to if you find a character with four years' worth of skills and an empty corp history that no one's ever seen before. No, I mean wiped clean, day one, "Welcome to EVE, here's how you mine Veldspar" new characters. Painful as it may be, it's the only way I can see of re-establishing developer annonymity. That, and a gag order under pain of termination.

Also, I'd like to re-iterate my "Rubbish" comment to anyone who claims that developers need to be playing the game as their professional personas. You should never, ever be able to see any player with "CCP" or "GM" in front of their names unless they are confronting you with something that absolutely requires their presence. They should be invisible, intangible, at best identifiable only so much as they can be held accountable. And corporations shouldn't mean a thing, either- we created, filled, tested, and disbanded guilds every day. When you can create an infinite number of accounts/characters at will and can spawn in any and every asset in the database with a snap of your fingers, there is absolutely no reason to "test" anything out on the public servers.

Mik Nostrebor
Minmatar
Ex Coelis
Posted - 2007.05.30 00:36:00 - [325]
 

CCP needs to clean up ISD. It is not good for it to be seen as being run in a very bad and corrupt manner. To me it seems that ISD is at risk of being disbanded altogether which would be a bad thing for us players. After all, if this hoohar keeps up CCP will be looking for a scape goat and ISD is right up there in the line of fire.

They need to make sure that NO BoB members (dev or otherwise) have direct personal access to senior ISD members and that ISD members remain anonymous to the devs. Only the CCP support managers have any business dealing with ISD at this level. It also means that none of the dev staff can actually be in ISD either except in publicly disclosed roles (eg Kieron).

If I were in IA I would be making recommendations to that effect in an effort to remove any avenues of conflict of interest and possible corruption.

So we should be lobbying CCP in the forums to reform ISD. EG:
1. Remove all devs from ISD except for support staff.
2. Remove dev access to ISD member identities
3. Initiate proper disciplinary procedures for ISD members and not arbitrary dismissal.
4. CCP Support staff who have access to ISD member information should not be allowed to have normal playing accounts on the live server.
5. RP GM staff should not ever have player accounts
6. Devs with player accounts cannot become involved in RP Events.
7. Devs with player accounts cannot be in senior roles in any Alliance or corp within an Alliance. They should be reminded that their player accounts are there mainly for gameplay testing purposes and not for personal fulfilment.
8. Devs with player accounts should be flagged clearly to to all other dev accounts, including their real identities. (Not flagged to normal players however)
9. All Dev accounts that are currently in BoB should be deleted, regardless of their involvment in the current debarcle. This should be done as a demonstration of the commitment of CCP to its players.
10. All player members in BoB who are also in the ISD program should have their ISD accounts suspended until they leave BoB or choose to leave the ISD program.
11. All ISD accounts should be recreated with different names to ensure anonymity .


Those are my thoughts anyway.

MehTheTrader
University of Caille
Posted - 2007.05.30 00:36:00 - [326]
 

Having devs play in game promotes cheating. With the current system devs/gms have absolutely no trouble in cheating. obviously ccp doesnt care about cheating if they rehired t20.

ssorion
Caldari
Orion Researching n Development
Zzz
Posted - 2007.05.30 00:56:00 - [327]
 

Originally by: Chelone
If devs need to play the game, they need to play ALL of it, and play from the perspective of improving the game rather than cheating to help themselves (as is constantly SUSPECTED at least.)

Thats what i did mean exactly. And to achieve that, i believe not getting 'too involved' is nessesary. Switching playstyle, and alliances on a regular basis would help alot.

Dramaticus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.05.30 00:58:00 - [328]
 

There is absolutely zero reason for any CCP employee or volunteer to be playing on Tranquility when there are two perfectly good test servers(albeit 1 public) available.

Krulla
Minmatar
Miner Protection Guild
Posted - 2007.05.30 01:25:00 - [329]
 

Originally by: Dramaticus
There is absolutely zero reason for any CCP employee or volunteer to be playing on Tranquility when there are two perfectly good test servers(albeit 1 public) available.


Read the goddamn devblog. Arkanon explains it a lot better than I ever could.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=472

Originally by: Arkanon
While itís somewhat understandable that the participation of CCP staff in EVE is being questioned once again, our answer must once more be that our involvement is vital to the development of EVE. Barring CCP employees from the game would effectively stop EVE in its tracks. EVE is such a complex application that it is impossible to understand it without participating, playing on the test server is not the full EVE experience, nor is it possible to replicate issues involving our server structure or large amounts of players using it.

There is simply no way to develop a world as complex as this without experiencing it firsthand. You cannot develop it by proxy, evaluate fun through statistics, or make judgments without fully understanding how it grows and evolves, especially when nearly everything we create and place in EVE can be used by players in ways that were never anticipated.

In order to do justice to our game and to meet your expectations, we must share your frustrations, joys, successes and failures. One cannot fully appreciate the investment of time and effort that players make without trying it one's self. Every employee at CCP should know what it is like to work themselves to exhaustion for something you, the EVE community, believe in and love, in game and out. At the same time, each and every CCP employee is expected to exercise their judgment while doing so and treat EVE, CCP and our customers with the respect they deserve. Nothing else is acceptable, not to you and certainly not to us.

Mik Nostrebor
Minmatar
Ex Coelis
Posted - 2007.05.30 05:35:00 - [330]
 

Originally by: Mik Nostrebor
CCP needs to clean up [SNNNIP]
Those are my thoughts anyway.


I am glad I posted that here....the other thread seems to be have deleted after 170 pages of replies....



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