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Theo Ramone
Posted - 2007.05.20 02:38:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: DarkElf
i'm sorry but i think it's ridiculous that a drake fitted in a certain way can tank almost any ship in game indefinately without needing any cap. it's a friggin battlecruiser ffs. yes with a tank like that u can't do any decent dmg but i still don't think it should be able to tank like that. i'm not saying nerf it, you'll very very rarely hear me say to nerf something as decent pilots will just adapt but i do think it's silly. i saw a drake tanking a domi with 5 ogre II's, 6 neutron II's with void and 3 mag stab II's. the domi never got him below 50% shields which is just kinda silly imo.

but lets just let gm's do what they do and tust them to maintain balance.


DE





Are you intellectually challeneged??

The ONLY thing a Drake does is tank. It aint gonna kill you. It aint gonna web you, it aint gonna scram you, it aint gonna drone you to death. You can fly away from it. The ONLY thing its does really well is tank.
And to even do that you need alot of skills and roughly 100 million in gear.

Well dur! When you stick 3 times the equipment cost on a ship dedicated to one specific role your ship BETTER be good in that role!

So really why are people so up in arms over the Drakes tanking? Thats ALL its good for! Oh no, a ship I cant OMGWTFPWN! Its not fair! *cry cry*

Rolling Eyes

Bournie
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.05.20 02:48:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Da'Kor
I fly a drake in PVP, and sometimes I fly them using the passive super-tank.

There have been quite a few mis-statements about the Drake's tanking abilities currently, and I believe most of this discussion is based on hear-say.

The Drake tank is easily defeated by most of your common full-gank setups for BS's and even some BC's. If you're sitting around with your little buddies testing the Drake tank, don't bother. Otherwise test the exact same tank on every other ship and THEN see how it performs. You will find there are many other ships that compare with the Drake.

I would LOVE to fly a Caldari ship that had the DPS potential of any other ship out there in it's class... not to mention the PVP utility of all other races. Ravens have some nice DPS but sitting out at 200km trying to snipe with missiles just doesn't cut it.

I think the main arguement on every Caldari mind is the fact that we would LOVE to have the versatility of every single other class, and we felt vindicated with the Drake's survivability even though we have to dump 200m ISK into it to get it to that point (sure the prices are dropping but you know what I'm saying).

I'm with some of the previous posters when they say they want their SP back.... What I wouldn't give to have chosen Gallente instead of Caldari, but we have to play with the hand we're delt and I'm sure IF the Drake gets nerfed I can always switch skills

QFTSmile

Leikung
Posted - 2007.05.20 03:07:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Alpine 69dude, you're not telling me that you rat in a recon ship o.0[/quote


Rat in low sec, level 4 missions, hidden plexes. My Rook does them all.

Calexis Atredies
Quantum Industries
Prime Orbital Systems
Posted - 2007.05.20 09:12:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: n0thing
oh and btw, a BC doing lvl 4 missions is even bigger reason for a fix, why should I pay 200mil for a Hyperion with same tank when I can train a 30mil ship and tank all day long with maybe 1/2 damage not worrying about cap or anything.


OK... lets just run throught some numbers for a passive super-tanked drake...

Drake = 35 mill

HIGH SLOTS
7x heavy missle launcher II's = 35 mill

MED SLOTS
2x large extender II's = 8 mill
3x Caldari navy resistance amplifiers (using them for 40% and no cap)= 100 mill (its generally 40 mill a piece)
1x Shield recharger II = 0.5 mill

LOW SLOTS
4x SPR II's = 20 mill

RIGS
2x core defence purger I's = 34 mill
1x EM screen I = 8 mill

Total cost of ship and modules = 240.5 mill
And thats with fairly low prices, so I think you have gotten the better deal, since this tank will hold around...

em/642 dps
kinetic/800 dps
Exp/602 dps
Therm/584 dps

Av 657 dps

Whilst probably giving out about 1/3rd your DPS Rolling Eyes

Mudkest
Adventurers
Matari Visionary Coalition
Posted - 2007.05.20 09:18:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Calexis Atredies
I am caldari, therefore I shield tank, 150 secs might not seem much but will mean life or death with a T2 fitted BS bearing down on you.


just as it should be. BC have sig radius close to that of a battleship, so take a lot of damage from bs sized weapons. But it is still a cruiser. big/haevy one but still a cruiser.
if a t2 fitted bs is gunning for you you should have a hard time surviving, not laughing it off as your ship is unbalanced(shield regen same as cruisers, but shield halfway between cruiser/bs)

I mean, a destroyer agaisnt a t2 fitted cruiser is concidered no match in most cases either.

doctorstupid2
The Accursed
Posted - 2007.05.20 12:00:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: doctorstupid2 on 20/05/2007 11:58:36
For what it's worth, I was fooling around on test in a deimos, setup with a rack of ions and 2 mag fields (replaced third mag with a PDS to get power for a med nos, sue me), dealing out just shy of 700 gross DPS counting a flight of Valkyrie II's, firing void and not having overloaded my guns. The drake not only passively tanked me, it damn near killed me (very very slowly). Thankfully they can't tackle at the same time. Chatting with the pilot in local revealed it was just regular T2 and named equipment, and far from maxed skills.

The drake is fine with its reduced recharge. Get over it.

n0thing
Executive Intervention
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2007.05.20 13:04:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Valea Silpha

And you have to remember that a dual repping myrm does the damage of a domi while tanking like a drake. Is that balance ? No, it is clearly not, especially when it can happily fit a rack of nos which is basically a win against most anything.

Be sensible. A big tank is awesome, but only if you do a lot of damage too.






A myrmidon like already been mentioned tanks for 2-3 minutes max till he will run out of cap boosters.

As for rack of nosfs, dual rep + cap booster cant fit more then 3 nosfs and 3 electrons, unless you put rigs. Even then tho, if theres no cap to drain you got no cap yourself.

Lili Lu
Posted - 2007.05.20 13:36:00 - [98]
 

The following is an excellent and inadvertent example of what is wrong with the Drake. It is a quote from a mission thead on a difficult level 4 mission.

Originally by: Kuno Hida
I have no problems with this mission in a Drake. I can't imagine why so many of you need BS in this.

7 t2 heavy launchers.
1 Iinv. Field T2
2 t2 kinetic resistance amplifiers
2 t2 thermal resistance amplifiers
1 t2 Large shield extender.
2 t2 BCU
2 SPR
3 shield regen rigs
5 Warrior I drones.

with level 4 skills I have an appx. 82% resist and less than 320 second regen time. plunk one group at a time, and keep plenty of ammo in your hold.
Total cost of the drake is appx. 213 million.




Oh, and 213 million and level 4 skills in many turret and armor tanking BS would not make a difference, might just result in pretty expensive guns floating in space. This quote could not be said about a hurricane or harbinger, and almost any turret and armor tank BS has problems in level 4 missions this pilot will never encounter and doesn't understand. This quote to me sums up the problem with Drake passive shield recharge and missile spamming - it's too easy. Not having a perma tank - what's that?; Cap use and regen worries - what's that?; Transversal, tracking, and not always hitting - what's that?; weapons that only do two types of damage - what's that?.

The latest I win button is getting a minor nerf. Cry me a river.Rolling Eyes

Spaced Skunk
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.05.20 14:08:00 - [99]
 

I dont see the problem, it hasnt been 'nerfed' THAT badly. It will still passively tank probably all cruisers/most BS/some HACs easily.

It's tank is too powerful and needs to be changed. Its a t1 BATTLECRUISER and before today one has tanked my gank fit sliepnir AND maelstrom @ 40% shield, the most dps dealing got dam non-capital minmatar ships in the game, AND I have excellent gunnery skills.

Then again so has a damn mrymidon, them things are as hard as diamond nails and hurt just has much!

Calexis Atredies
Quantum Industries
Prime Orbital Systems
Posted - 2007.05.20 19:37:00 - [100]
 

Edited by: Calexis Atredies on 20/05/2007 19:38:50
Edited by: Calexis Atredies on 20/05/2007 19:38:34
Originally by: Lili Lu
The latest I win button is getting a minor nerf. Cry me a river.Rolling Eyes


I win?? BAHH! At most its an "I live" button, all you have to do is warp out as you cap gets low and youre safe...

And in my mind a BC is not a halfway BS, its more a halfway command ship so its survivabillity is inherit from that of a command ship.

jilahed
Posted - 2007.05.20 20:03:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Qui Shon

No, not ok. Like you yourself say, fit some mods. Using your logic, and being generous, the drakes shield regen is 49 sh/s having fitted three extenders. No überness there.



No. You are playing dumb it's ok and what most people do here. I explicitly explained i am talking pvp and there you cannot use those slots for cap regen. If that argument is not ok with you it's because you don't pvp, but please don't take that part off the quote and answer just as if i didn't point it out. Thats really low.

Originally by: Qui Shon

I already said a dualrep armor tank takes 11 slots. That leaves three mids for something else.
And yes it's a PvE fit, that's what I do right now.




Yep. I don't talk about pve. So why are you still trying
to counter every statement i make about pvp with some of your pve thoughts? It's not that i didnt say about what i am talking, right? No you only cropped that part of my posts.

Originally by: Qui Shon

Hey, guess what. A passive shield tanker makes sacrifices like using lows for tank *and* damage too. In fact, the übertank people complain about uses ALL it's lowslots, AND all it's midslots just for tank.



Yes, so what? I didn't say otherwise afaik.

Originally by: Qui Shon

The Drake already makes a tradeoff by having low damage output, so what is your point again?



My point is people should stop whining about the fact that the drake has to make its tradeoff(not that it doesnt make tradeoffs - not by a long shot). I was quite civil and very explicit about that. You obviously dont want to understand me.
You are a pve player and don't complain about it - at least thats what i grasp from your posts. But you answered my posts
and "corrected" me with pve statements although i was clearly talking about pvp.
This gave me the impression you where on of these people. Sorry if i misunderstood you, but i still can't see why you started arguing about pvp with me when you don't want to talk about it in the first place?

Originally by: Qui Shon

Btw, the amazing Drake tank people whine about uses active hardeners, which will switch off without cap. You can make a great totally passive tank as well, but it won't be the omg-nerf-it tank whiners use as an example.



I know. But i am not "people".

Originally by: Qui Shon

I use that overpowered Myrmi these days, so I don't really *want* anything regarding the Drake. When I get my armor skills up to the same level my shield skills are now, I'll switch to armor tanking, so I can use an AB and maybe rails too, when needed, in the hopes they would perform better then the arty's I use now.



As i said it was a general note not for you specifically.
I can differentiate between statements that you make and those that "people" make.

Originally by: Qui Shon

Yes, this is all for my PvE needs. Not everybody is exclusively PvP oriented, and those that are shouldn't die to solo drakes, now should they?


Not everyone is exclusively PvE oriented. But i made a post about pvp aspects of the drake and the general whinage that is going on regarding its pvp abilities. Then you come here and answer my post with pve related issues. So what do you expect from me?
Forgetting that i am a pvp oriented player, forgetting that all my posts in this thread were directed at pvp (explicitly) and talk about pve with you? Sorry, that doesn't interest me and while i can understand you have different needs than i might have, you obviously can't do the same for me. Thats you r problem.

I won't make the error and say anything about your last sentence as you are again making references to pvp although you stated you don't pvp and don't want to discuss. Please stop teasin me like this.

RuriHoshino
Minmatar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2007.05.20 20:51:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Vampie
...All BCs have one of the bonuses dedicated to tanking attributes, the only time you see that on a BS is on tier 3 BSs.


WTB: Hurricane with a tank bonus of any kind. Yes, I can use all 8 high's for damage. Yes, I can exceed 1800 m/s with no implants and no gang bonuses. The tradeoff for being a damage dealer is that I can't tank nearly as well, but that's fine. No ship should be able to do everything well. (I'm looking at you, Myrmidon Mad)

I honestly couldn't stand flying a Drake because it has severe problems with MOVING, and the dps from missiles really is horrible. But I don't have a problem with it being a rofl-tank for that reason. Ships fill roles. My role is to blow things up. The Drake's is to not get blown up.

jilahed
Posted - 2007.05.20 21:18:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Spacer John

Nodbody is saying that ANY ship has NO tradeoffs.

Myrmi/Domi pros / cons = X effectiveness in PVP
Drake pros / cons = Y effectiveness in PVP

Your saying X = Y?



What? No not at all. It's X >>> Y no matter if you take myrmi or domi. And i stated that quite explicitly.

Originally by: Spacer John

That is what is frustrating about the nerf.



I explicitly stated myrmi is imo overpowered. Why don't you read my posts? Really i dont think thats fair and certainly not what i do to other people. I am just saying Y > 0 along some other statements that i can't put into your formula.
But i'll try:

Next to X, Y we have
Harbinger pros / cons = U effectiveness in PVP
Hurricane pros / cons = V effectiveness in PVP

Now obviously its X >>> Y, U and V. Still everyone who complains about drake in pvp says oh its X > Y. No one bothers to ask what with U and V is, but they do exist too.
And when you look at them in comparison to drake its not so easy anymore to argue drake is crap in pvp.

Still i understand you very well and i'd love to see all
non gallente tier2 bcs buffed a bit. No argument there i hope.

Originally by: Spacer John

People don't like the idea of the Drake being hard to kill. They are pro nerf so it can be more easily killed, BUT they don't fly them for solo or small gang PVP or at all so they don't care what happens to the ship in that regard.



I am not pro nerf and never have been. Despite the fact i find it questionable that any bc can permatank a gank bs i
see how limited this is in pvp! I said in another thread max-tank drake is a nuisance nothing more - myrmidon is dangerous.


Originally by: Spacer John

Overpowered Shield Tank ≠ Overpowered PVP ship overall

All the people claiming that "the passive shield tank is overpowered, this nerf is due, get over it" are simplifying the affair (at least in regards to Drake solo/gang PVP).



Yes. Totally agree. But people crying omfg drake is crap in pvp and it should pwn like myrmidon oversimplify too.

Originally by: Spacer John

The whole point is that our tradeoff is greater for PVP effectiveness than most armor tankers. And now they are making our tradeoff even greater, so don't act like we are asking for the Drake to have everything. Take away some of its awesome passive tank (only thing it excels in)?, then give it something to balance.



Agreed. Caldari have issues regarding pvp performance but i pointed out armor tankers have them too. If the tradeoff of caldari is so much bigger can be discssed but it shouldnt be discussed as if myrmidon were the only armor tanker ingame...

Best regards

Spacer John
Posted - 2007.05.20 23:29:00 - [104]
 

Jilahed, sounds like I misunderstood your overall stance on the issue. Do other non-gallente BCs need a boost? maybe, I don't fly them so Im not qualified to comment on that.

I do know that in the grand scheme of things, the Drake is not the be-all PVP ship by a long shot. If "U and V" are as gimped as you claim them to be, then if they had their best attribute nerfed, I would understand why pilots of those ships would be upset also.

I totally understand that it is irritating to have a ship around that many people think is "unkillable" (not exactly accurate). That concept doesn't sit well with me either. But instead of coming up with balances, people are happy to see the Drake nerfed, period. This leaves Drake pilots with an orginally middle of the road PVP ship that will now be slightly worse. This would not be so aggravating if Caldari had a myriad of other PVP strong ships, but we don't. That middle of the road ship was one of our best options, hence why people will fight so hard to keep it at its peak mediocre performance.

So yes, I agree only comparing it to the Myrmidon is not a very good solo argument. The statistic I've heard floating around is that in solo 1on1 engagements the Drake wins (destroys other ship) 2% of the time. This is pre-nerf and not against any single shiptype.

The PVE argument is laughably bad, mainly because you run missions for ISK. The Drake runs missions slowly due to low DPS. Low DPS equals slow mission running which equals low ISK/hr. Any mission runner worth his salt will be using a Raven, nerf or no nerf.

Captain Schmungles
Caldari
Freelancing Corp
Confederation of Independent Corporations
Posted - 2007.05.20 23:32:00 - [105]
 

This is just dumb. It's another 150 seconds, who cares? Now you might actually have to active tank some attributes on a Drake. God forbid.

As for the nerf, well, if you do have a passive-tank setup on a drake that actually works, then you also have the dps of a wet blanket. That's the trade-off you've made, and so the fact that you can't kill anything bigger than a t1 frigate should be enough of a disadvantage. Think about it, your opponent can keep brining in other ships to up the dps, at some point the dps will break your passive tank, and all the while you sit warp scrambled and curse your heavy missiles for being so weak Laughing

Last, part of tanking well in a drake is being intelligent about it. I once ran into a gate camp of an apoc and a hurricane in a drake. I activated my hardeners (it was an active tank setup) and started flying away from the apoc. I managed to kill the hurricane, but my stupid decision to fly away from the bs rather than flying toward him and getting under his guns meant that I died. I died because I was stupid, and so when flying your "uber-tank-can't-kill-anything" setup, don't complain that your tank is unable to make up for your stupidity.

Spacer John
Posted - 2007.05.21 00:34:00 - [106]
 

---"This is just dumb. It's another 150 seconds, who cares? Now you might actually have to active tank some attributes on a Drake. God forbid.

As for the nerf, well, if you do have a passive-tank setup on a drake that actually works, then you also have the dps of a wet blanket. That's the trade-off you've made, and so the fact that you can't kill anything bigger than a t1 frigate should be enough of a disadvantage. Think about it, your opponent can keep brining in other ships to up the dps, at some point the dps will break your passive tank, and all the while you sit warp scrambled and curse your heavy missiles for being so weak"---

You claim that the good tank on a Drake is more than equalized by the poor DPS. You also claim that the nerf is minor and shouldn't bother anyone. The whole point is that because the Drake's good attributes are more than balanced by it's detractors, it doesn't make any sense to nerf the ship at all.

At this point I'm mainly posting for argument's sake. The ship will be nerfed and some people will move on to other ships and others will keep flying it.

When someone claims that in overall PVP performance, the Drake was not performing in a way that should have warranted a reduction in ability, I don't see how that can be honestly contested.

Common retorts:

- BC tanking like a BS is overpowered
-- The Drake has many detractors that balance this out. This comment is oversimplified and boils down to people not liking the IDEA of not being able to solo kill any ship.

- The Drake is a BC that can run lvl 4 missions, therefore it's overpowered
-- This has no bearing on a PVP argument. Why nerf a ship people enjoy using in PVP for PVE reasons, especially when it's not a smart choice for PVE regardless?

- The nerf isn't that bad, so you shouldn't complain
-- The whole point of the argument is that the ship didn't deserve ANY nerf, at least in any PVP aspect.

- The lore says that Gallente should shield tank better than blah blah or in real life a battlecruiser blah blah
-- Real life comparisons and gamelore should not affect how ships in the game are truely balanced against each other and has no bearing on the argument. If they had Jovians, and all their ships were better than any other races, everyone would train Jovian and there would be no reason for other races. Yes that would fit with the lore, but who cares, it would make for a very poorly balanced game.

- It takes no skill to spam missiles and you don't have to manage cap, therefore it's an "I win" button
-- Ease of use does not equate to good peak performance. You could fly a ship with no mods, then hey, no need to worry about cap or transversal or... anything, doesn't make this ship any more desirable or nerf worthy.

People that hate a ship with the tank a Drake can have, should just state that they are happy to see it's tank get nerfed. Not try and argue why nerfing an already only decent PVP ship is just.

Antaeras
Posted - 2007.05.21 02:15:00 - [107]
 

Save teh Drake. The uberpassive Drake is just a shield blob, it can't do *anything* except tank - so what's wrong with it tanking like a BS? The above post is a nice summary of arguments why it shouldn't be nerfed, along with the following:

Originally by: Spacer John
1- A lvl 4 capable Drake will NOT cost you 30mil, much much closer to the 200mil you'd pay for an Hyperion.

2- The Drake takes forever to finish a lvl 4 mission and has DPS low enough to not be able to break some NPC's tank. You do missions to make ISK (this is my assumption at least) and the slower the mission is done, the less ISK/hr you make.


Originally by: Vampie
Remember, BCs are not one level up from cruiser and one down from BS, they are a side track, just like the Destroyer.

Battle Cruisers are the "command ships light", they are supposed to be front line ships, carrying command mods (did you ever noticed the bonus to gang mods?), and they are supposed to be as tough as BS, but doing far less damage. All BCs have one of the bonuses dedicated to tanking attributes, the only time you see that on a BS is on tier 3 BSs.

For once CCP got a ship class description and what the ships can do right, They are gang support ships, to take to the front lines, that have a good chance of surviving an engagement.

murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2007.05.21 02:24:00 - [108]
 

I fly a Drake all the time. I camp gates with it, fly it in roaming gangs, pretty much anything I can think of doing, I can do with a Drake just fine.

That being said, It's way overpowered. I can IDLE at around 88% shields passively while tanking .4 sentry/station guns. If the guns arn't shooting me, I can tank one gank BS, or two tanked BS quite easily. And this is while still having some slots dedicated to tackling.

The Drake is overpowered, just like nano-BS were, and even after the nerf it won't be underpowered *at all*.

Sionide
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.05.21 04:44:00 - [109]
 

If what the OP is saying is true, it's about f-ing time the passive tanks for BCs were looked into. When a passive shield drake can perma tank a blaster hype or mega with t2 guns indef it is a bit silly.

This thread and the OPs post is comical.

C Spawn
LevellerS
Inver Brass
Posted - 2007.05.21 07:26:00 - [110]
 

I just have no words to ppl who compare tank of 13-slot passive tanked Drake to tank of n-slot dual-rep capboost myrm and saying that myrm can tank 2 mins.
It's just... some kind of ******ness, rly.

Compare only comparable setups, so compare 13-slot tanked drake ONLY with 13-slot tanked dual (or even triple, it fits and runs) forever-repping mydon and STFU.

Calexis Atredies
Quantum Industries
Prime Orbital Systems
Posted - 2007.05.21 08:30:00 - [111]
 

Edited by: Calexis Atredies on 21/05/2007 08:27:53
Originally by: murder one
I fly a Drake all the time. I camp gates with it, fly it in roaming gangs, pretty much anything I can think of doing, I can do with a Drake just fine.

That being said, It's way overpowered. I can IDLE at around 88% shields passively while tanking .4 sentry/station guns. If the guns arn't shooting me, I can tank one gank BS, or two tanked BS quite easily. And this is while still having some slots dedicated to tackling.

The Drake is overpowered, just like nano-BS were, and even after the nerf it won't be underpowered *at all*.


LOL, a gallente character who flies a drake isntead of a myrm, that has to be one of the worst choices I have ever heard...

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2007.05.21 09:20:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Calexis Atredies
LOL, a gallente character who flies a drake isntead of a myrm, that has to be one of the worst choices I have ever heard...


ROFL, dude, seriously, Drakes are *awesome*. They don't have many of the problems a Myrm has. I still curse the dummy who told me to fly Galente ships.

Drake:
Tank
Gank
Tackle

Pick two, and remember that this is why the Drake is so awesome at missions.

Liang

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2007.05.21 10:04:00 - [113]
 

“ROFL, dude, seriously, Drakes are *awesome*. They don't have many of the problems a Myrm has.”
What problems? A Mrym has a stronger passive tank and does way more DPS. So you can tractor beam, savage while drones kill. Much faster then a Drake.

Qui Shon
Posted - 2007.05.21 10:52:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: jilahed

Yep. I don't talk about pve. So why are you still trying
to counter every statement i make about pvp with some of your pve thoughts?



Because it seemed to me your statements were misleading and your comparisons unfair, (excluding your first post, which I misunderstood) such as mentioning the base cap recharge of the myrm and comparing it to the needs of a repper, as if that had any relevance. You also never offered any reasoning for your claims of a PvP setup 'needing those slots' for something else. While I am inexperienced in combat PvP, basic logic and fair comparisons based on that are not beyond me, and thus I object when I read something that does not seem correct to me.

Quote:

I won't make the error and say anything about your last sentence as you are again making references to pvp although you stated you don't pvp and don't want to discuss. Please stop teasin me like this.


I will stop. This post is just an attempt at answering a direct question, not continuing the actual debate.

...

Even so I do want to quote one more thing from this thread.

Originally by: C Spawn
I just have no words to ppl who compare tank of 13-slot passive tanked Drake to tank of n-slot dual-rep capboost myrm and saying that myrm can tank 2 mins.
It's just... some kind of ******ness, rly.

Compare only comparable setups, so compare 13-slot tanked drake ONLY with 13-slot tanked dual (or even triple, it fits and runs) forever-repping mydon and STFU.


Hear hear.

Masu'di
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
Posted - 2007.05.21 10:56:00 - [115]
 

i thought the original design intention of a battlecruiser was to be something with a similar damage output to a battleship, but with much less defence and more maneuverability.

something clearly not the case, and needs changing.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2007.05.21 15:46:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
“ROFL, dude, seriously, Drakes are *awesome*. They don't have many of the problems a Myrm has.”
What problems? A Mrym has a stronger passive tank and does way more DPS. So you can tractor beam, savage while drones kill. Much faster then a Drake.



So, not everything is about missions, but even in missions my heavies are always getting pounded by drone-aggro. Drone-aggro sucks, and it doesn't help when they decide to just sit in space with their thumb up the collective posterior.

It is true that the Myrmidon can salvage while actually running the mission though. I run 3 rails, 1 tractor, and 2 salvagers in my highs when running missions, and it does speed things up some... for whatever that's worth.

Now, the thing that always bugs me is when people compare a Myrmidon's close range DPS to the Drake's ranged DPS. Then they compare a blaster ship's close range DPS to the Drake's, guess what, ranged DPS.

Lets put this on a different playing field. Lets try comparing a Drake's close range DPS to a Myrmidon's close range DPS.

630 (Good skill Drake) to 450 (Perfect skill Myrmidon). Hmmm. Seems like a just fine damage dealer to me! And nobody can blow your HAM Launcher II's up - but my Ogre II's can be popped just fine. And last I checked, 450 wasn't "way more" than 630.

With that said, the grass is always greener on the other side. The Drake wouldn't be able to mount an uber tank or tackle with that setup (3 BCU+AB). But you can still mount a heck of an active tank. So, as odd as it sounds, not everybody passive tanks their Drake.

Liang

Disclaimer: I can fly Drakes, but have much more SP in the Myrmidon.

Mudkest
Adventurers
Matari Visionary Coalition
Posted - 2007.05.21 16:42:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: Calexis Atredies

LOL, a gallente character who flies a drake isntead of a myrm, that has to be one of the worst choices I have ever heard...


since when does race has anything to do with piloted ships? Shocked

Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Emminent Terraforming
O.G.-Alliance
Posted - 2007.05.21 16:56:00 - [118]
 

Why not give the Drake back its ROF bonus to launchers if they are nerfing the tank?

Captain Schmungles
Caldari
Freelancing Corp
Confederation of Independent Corporations
Posted - 2007.05.21 17:44:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Spacer John

You claim that the good tank on a Drake is more than equalized by the poor DPS. You also claim that the nerf is minor and shouldn't bother anyone. The whole point is that because the Drake's good attributes are more than balanced by it's detractors, it doesn't make any sense to nerf the ship at all.


The problem, though, is that the really bad dps does not completely balance the really good tanking ability. Some people in this thread have made statements like "I can tank a sentry gun and a gank BS setup really well," or "I can tank two BS's really well," or "I can tank a t2/faction BS setup really well." Now, these people can't do any real damage to these ships, but the problem is that the drake's ability to passive tank so well means that pilots take little risk in pvp engagements like drake vs. one BS. At this point, it's a guaranteed stalemate, and the drake pilot pretty much knows the chance of the solo BS breaking his tank is pretty low, and the BS pilot knows the chance of the Drake breaking his tank is also pretty low. Where's the fun in that? What's the point of PVP engagements where neither pilot is really risking anything by committing to the engagement?

The problem I have with this nerf is the rumor that it will apply to all BCs, not just to the drake and the myrm. The other BCs don't boast the tank that the Drake and the Myrm do, so nerfing their shield recharge times (especially on the ferox) would make already average tanks into less-than-average tanks. What CCP needs to do is to address BCs in a far more focused way. The Ferox, for example, needs a slight overhaul so that it's not just a Drake with a poorer tank and turret hardpoints. Maybe make the Ferox into a higher-dps boat? Who knows, but the last thing the Ferox needs is a shield recharge time nerf.

Oh, and I fly a Drake. I will continue to fly one after the nerf. I will still be able to tank better than a bs (most of the time, depends on your mods and skills of course) after the nerf. I will still be just as unable to kill anything after the nerf as I am now. Oh, and I active tank my drake, so the shield recharge time isn't as critical to me as it is to someone who passive tanks their drake.

Neuromandis
Posted - 2007.05.21 18:33:00 - [120]
 

Edited by: Neuromandis on 21/05/2007 18:32:52
Originally by: Liang Nuren

630 (Good skill Drake) to 450 (Perfect skill Myrmidon). Hmmm. Seems like a just fine damage dealer to me! And nobody can blow your HAM Launcher II's up - but my Ogre II's can be popped just fine. And last I checked, 450 wasn't "way more" than 630.



Try this again, input actual numbers with both ships 13-slot passive-tanked, and come back with a few real numbers.

I laughed so hard I fell off my chair. Myrmidon is about 2-3 times the dps of a passive tanked Drake.

Hint:

You have a myrmidon and a drake, and both field their dreaded 13-slot shield tanks.
The Drake uses its 7 launchers without balistic control systems, and 5 hobgoblin II's
The myrmidon uses, say, 4 RAILGUNS (not even blasters), and its 5 Ogre II's.

What a surprise that it does almost TRIPLE the drake's DPS, and tanks a LOT stronger than the drake. Honestly, I cannot even imagine where you got your numbers. The Myrmidon actually tears stuff to bits with its drones while the drake throws them rocks to convince them to go, all the while the Myrmidon having a BETTER passive tank than the drake...

Honestly, how can this thread have Gallente saying that the nerf was good because the drake was imba, when all the nerf did was make the situation even more imbalanced in the favor of the Myrmidon, which does what the drake was supposed to only twice better???


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