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Drizit
Amarr
Posted - 2007.05.21 10:02:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Originally by: PastaMadaFaka
lololz
Don't know if it's just me but.. stopped reading here.
Could you please at least try to be constructive? Yes? Thanks.


I believe it was pretty constructive since it re-iterated what has been said time and time again about cloaks.
Quote:
whats a cloak good for if the enemy can find u?

And also the point:
Quote:
cloaks are ok as it is if u got problems with peeps getting in ur system thats ur problem for letting them in

In addition, both points I agree to.

Cosmos Serendipity
BRAHMA CORP
Posted - 2007.05.21 12:00:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Cosmos Serendipity on 21/05/2007 12:07:19
I guess the easiest way to fix this without compromising the cloak or forcing everyone offline each time they turn their back for a few minutes is to set an idle status bar that shows up next to a persons name in local.


My main point here is that there is sometimes legitimate reasons for someone to be afk without intending to grief someone.

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2007.05.21 13:24:00 - [33]
 

1. thing: I have never used a cloak (but I know the stats and mechanics). I have never used probes.

let's flame :-]]

Let's make cloaks imperfect. They are generaly hidden in the background noise of the systems own radiation (stars etc) and when they are moving, they are impossible to trace.

Once they stand still, they produce a pattern in the noise background of the system. The longer they stand still, the more the pattern shows an probes can gradualy start picking them up. Now to make this complicated, simple thrusters movement is not enough to hide your signature. You need to warp.

This means an active cloaker is safe, he usualy travels around the system (or has to to avoid detection). An AFK cloaker will be gradualy visible to probes after some time.

Now if we add precision to probes, the ones with lowest range are most accurate, so they can pick up the signature early, observators take time for the signature to grow.

Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
Posted - 2007.05.21 13:46:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Hugh Ruka
You need to warp.


This is directly against how cloaks work in all SciFi literature (and logic). It is easier to emulate the background if you are sitting still, the power emitted from a warp jump is much harder to hide.

Besides, only the Covert Ops cloak on a Covert Ops or Recon ship allows you to warp while cloaked, all other cloaks/ships require you to de-cloak to warp.

It would effectively destroy cloaks if you HAD to warp to stay hidden.

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2007.05.21 16:29:00 - [35]
 

Quote:
whats a cloak good for if the enemy can find u?

Ask the Romulans and Klingons Cool

Ok now, seriously. A cloaking device is good for not being seen or detected at a glance.
It's good for raiding. It's good for surprise attacks and traveling unseen.
But it should not be good for staying undetectable even under thorough scanning and probing.

All cloaking devices I can remember had some flaws and were detectable in some way or another. I think that's for a reason, because otherwise the concept is a bit overpowered.

PastaMadaFaka
Posted - 2007.05.21 16:47:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: PastaMadaFaka on 21/05/2007 16:49:05
Originally by: Drizit
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Originally by: PastaMadaFaka
lololz
Don't know if it's just me but.. stopped reading here.
Could you please at least try to be constructive? Yes? Thanks.


I believe it was pretty constructive since it re-iterated what has been said time and time again about cloaks.
Quote:
whats a cloak good for if the enemy can find u?

And also the point:
Quote:
cloaks are ok as it is if u got problems with peeps getting in ur system thats ur problem for letting them in

In addition, both points I agree to.





u said it all :P


"almost forgot if they change cloaks the way u peeps want u just gona kill 0.0 exploration"

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2007.05.21 16:59:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: PastaMadaFaka
"almost forgot if they change cloaks the way u peeps want u just gona kill 0.0 exploration"
Why?
Would you care to elaborate?
Let's say scanning would take a minimum of 1 hour, just to give you something to work with and to get you started.

PastaMadaFaka
Posted - 2007.05.21 17:02:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Originally by: PastaMadaFaka
"almost forgot if they change cloaks the way u peeps want u just gona kill 0.0 exploration"
Why?
Would you care to elaborate?
Let's say scanning would take a minimum of 1 hour, just to give you something to work with and to get you started.


try to do some then some sites are hard to find sometimes it takes more 1h just to get the first sig of it not to mention sometimes u have to do alot of warping arround just to place ur probes right by the time i had the site i would be probed down and killed

Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
Posted - 2007.05.21 18:34:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Tarron Sarek

Ask the Romulans and Klingons Cool


And I quote out of the original Star Trek Klingon Ship Recognition Manual:

"Of the 81 K22Bs built, one has been captured by the Federation, one has been destroyed, and the other 79 are believed to be in active service, their where-abouts unknown".

Notice how almost all the cloaked ships that the Romulans or Klingons lost were due to stupidity...

PastaMadaFaka
Posted - 2007.05.21 20:32:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Originally by: Tarron Sarek

Ask the Romulans and Klingons Cool


And I quote out of the original Star Trek Klingon Ship Recognition Manual:

"Of the 81 K22Bs built, one has been captured by the Federation, one has been destroyed, and the other 79 are believed to be in active service, their where-abouts unknown".

Notice how almost all the cloaked ships that the Romulans or Klingons lost were due to stupidity...




ugh

nice one :P

Ramashek
Caldari
Posted - 2007.05.22 13:53:00 - [41]
 

Just a random post onto this, but what about removing cloaked people from local entirely? (although they will appear there to non locals, just not able to see the uncloaked populus) with like a 10 minutes of not being allowed back in when uncloaking... they still have their directional scanner to find people...

the cloaked person will not lose out, as they can't be found all the same, and the residents will be happy as they can't be spied on so efficiently...

and then maybe a passive pulse scanner from a gate in a system you have sovereinity of, kind of like radar, it will pulse out for 500km or whatever every 10 seconds, giving like a blip, then the cloaked player isnt revealed, but will atleast have to move about to maintain any ability to not be found...

*prepares for the ideas to be shot down all the same*

the problem with probes would be, how do u determine someone is afk? cus they havent moved in 30mins? or if they havent changed direction? what if they're orbitting something while cloaked? it's just a huge problem stopping them going afk, but not messin it up for cloakers who aren't afk :| maybe it will be cleared up with rev 2.0? they might give pos scanning stations that negate a cloaked ships advantage?

PastaMadaFaka
Posted - 2007.05.22 15:58:00 - [42]
 

do u know what a cov ops ship is? its a flying cloak very easy to shoot down if u add those said probes nobody will use them anymore basicly cloaks and cov ops ships die cuz nobody will want to risk them since they cant tank anything... btw try to read the other posts :P

LORD IZE
Posted - 2007.05.25 04:34:00 - [43]
 

Lets stick to topic, ALL i have asked is that something being added to the game to detect AFK cloakers. NOT active cloakers. The deference would be defined as time away from your comp. One possible method is the one I suggested that would require at least an HOUR to locate a cloaker in your systems and the cloaker has to be relatively stationary(with the exception of moving in while cloaked but not warping).

What is your real objection to allowing detection of someone that has logged on and left his char in space cloaked simply to harrass active players?

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2007.05.25 04:37:00 - [44]
 

sry but this being made into the ulimate sci-fi game ever.

and even somelike me who knows just a bit of sci-fi knownledge knows that if it's cloaked, and not moving, you can't find it.

no w if it was moving it would be giving something off.

it's like being in a sub underwater with everything off.

impossable to find unless sonar picks up noise form a crew member.

Neuromandis
Posted - 2007.05.25 12:03:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
impossable to find unless sonar picks up noise form a crew member.


You said it all.

Impossible -> *unless*

Add this *unless* to cloaking (there isn't an "unless" now) and you have your analogy.

As for the exploration part above:

If it took 1 hour of you STANDING STILL to be probed, you would be safe. Even if it took you 4 hours to find that damned radar signature, it is not so much of a trouble to warp every hour or so is it? In fact you would NEED to to replace your probes. You're safe...

Trovax
Amarr
Posted - 2007.05.25 12:35:00 - [46]
 

OMG!!! NOT ANOTHER NERF CLOAKS POST!!!

A cloak is for hiding, covert ops, espionage, and a few other things too.

This means staying invisible for long periods of time. As ive mentioned in other posts, sometimes i spend hours just sitting within visible range of a gate not talking to anyone, takking notes.

Surveillance does not require....

Interaction with other players
Talking in local, or any other channel
Running risks (the very reason you get a cloak is to reduce the risk while in enemy territory, by not being spotted.

Just because you cant find them dosent mean the are afk
Just becasue they declined your chat dosent mean they are afk
Just because you cant see them dosent mean they are afk
Just because you cant shoot them dosnet mean they are afk
Just because they are not talking in local dosent mean they are afk, or even in a cloaked vessel. In fact it might not even have a cloak on it. They might just be in a buzzard with loads of jammers fitted...and no cloak.

The only reason peeps what cloaks nerfed is so they can sit waiting for a ship to run out of cloak, knowing it cant warp until it uncloaks, with the exception of the Buzzard and counterparts from other races. So they can pop it and maybe get the cloak device as loot, because we all know how expensive they are and what they are worth.

A cloaker gains no advantage if he goes AFK cloaked. And the pathetic excuses most of you nerfers are commin up with are total B*****KS!!!

A cloaker cant.....

Fire when cloaked
Target when cloaked
Scan your cargo when cloaked
Scan your ship when cloaked

So you are actually safer while they are cloaked than when they are not. I doubt any solo Bomber pilot would attack anyone unless he had backup, and if he does have backup, chances are he isnt afk, and that hes actually acting a spotter for his corp.

If your in a low sec where a COVOPS pilot can freely shoot you, then you should be watchin your back anyways.

There is no difference in a cloaker being afk and a docked hauler being afk.

Most peeps that play also have a real life too, and sometime they may be required to go afk, to, for example, put the kids to bed, the wife/gf/bf/husband want a hug, dinner time, unexpected guest that stayed longer than s/he thought and in talking to the guest forgot all about eve being online, or maybe even the dog is on fire and had to be rushed to the vet's. IMHO rl takes precendence.


The "IDK if he is afk or not" is the worst of them all. It holds no relevance in the argument. How do you know that half of Jita arnt afk?? Im sure at least 25% of them are. And none of them use cloaks (i dont think).

To sum it up, those of you trying to nerf cloaks just want to be able to get a good kill thats gonna drop potentially good loot, with the minimus of effort and resistance because the pilot is unable to defend him/her self, and maximum profit.

I think you nerfers selfish, lazy and greedy. Get a grip.

Out of all the posts about this subject, i have yet to see a single LEGIT argument about the cloak........ maybe one day someone will come up with somthing. but i doubt it.


Major Stallion
The Money Shot Inc.
Posted - 2007.05.25 12:47:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Cosmos Serendipity
Damn......so I guess the guys who have a family and have a sudden emergency like "Kid just broke his leg, gotta run to the hospital no time to warp to a station...hey cloak button!" deserves and really needs to have his ship found and destroyed?
Not sure what the problem is if someone really needs to go afk for a little while and doesn't have time to dock. Shocked


ctrl+q...if you feel the need to say "OMG I CANT LOG OUT OF EVE" then theres a serious problem

Cosmos Serendipity
BRAHMA CORP
Posted - 2007.05.26 02:24:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Major Stallion
Originally by: Cosmos Serendipity
Damn......so I guess the guys who have a family and have a sudden emergency like "Kid just broke his leg, gotta run to the hospital no time to warp to a station...hey cloak button!" deserves and really needs to have his ship found and destroyed?
Not sure what the problem is if someone really needs to go afk for a little while and doesn't have time to dock. Shocked


ctrl+q...if you feel the need to say "OMG I CANT LOG OUT OF EVE" then theres a serious problem


Almost forgot about this thread.....

When your afk, your not actually playing the game....playing the game while afk would require the use of a macro, which is against the rules. Just floating lifelessly in space is not (Attack someone who's afk at a gate in empire then petition CCP when you loose your ship just to test it out.)
IMO it doesn't matter if your in space or in station when afk, if one is against the rules the other should be too, but CCP realizes that at least a large majority of people playing eve has a rl and not all are just a bunch of zombies sitting in front of a monitor all day.

Trustus
Gallente
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2007.05.26 12:06:00 - [49]
 

Afk cloakers must be removed some how, or at least give the players some kind of penalty of being cloaked longer period of time.

so that we can get a change to find them and kill them.

/T

Futher Bezluden
Minmatar
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.05.26 12:24:00 - [50]
 

With all the talk of HEAT, why not risk damage to your cloak for extended periods of cloaking.
People want cloak fuel, but it'll just end up making all the covert-ops fliers fit cargo expanders so they can cloak for 5-6 hours in system bugging the hell out of players.
10 minutes cloaked and then there is a risk of damage unless the cloak (ANY CLOAK) is deactivated for a certain time period modified by your skill level of cloaking. Maybe a cooling down period is required and you can't activate the cloak.

just an idea


Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
Posted - 2007.05.26 17:46:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Futher Bezluden
With all the talk of HEAT, why not risk damage to your cloak for extended periods of cloaking.
People want cloak fuel, but it'll just end up making all the covert-ops fliers fit cargo expanders so they can cloak for 5-6 hours in system bugging the hell out of players.
10 minutes cloaked and then there is a risk of damage unless the cloak (ANY CLOAK) is deactivated for a certain time period modified by your skill level of cloaking. Maybe a cooling down period is required and you can't activate the cloak.

just an idea



And you just nerfed exploration.

Exploration in LowSec or 0.0 takes sometimes HOURS to scan sites down, during which time you are sitting still, can't warp until the scan completes, etc.

Remove cloaks from the equation every 10 minutes and you just made explorers sitting ducks.

The problem IS NOT CLOAKS. They should not be nerfed. The problem is AFK players, and if they are AFK they cannot hurt you.

Most of the "nerf cloak" threads are people whining that they might be attacked and can't solo rat/mine in 0.0 space. I swear most 0.0 alliances/Corps are more carebear than us dedicated Empir e Dwellers.

PastaMadaFaka
Posted - 2007.05.26 18:00:00 - [52]
 

do u guys know what weapons a buzzard can fit? it would be 2 light launchers now what dmg does that do thats like getting hit by a rat belt in 0.0 not to mention that like i said above that thing is a flying cloak a merlin tanks better than a buzzard :P

no fuel cuz theyr cargo is barely enough for our probes
no dmg cuz cloaks are a bit expensive and when im probing sometimes it takes a couple hours to get something in the scanner

if u dont like cov ops pilots start protecting ur own space better

if a bs shows up in ur space and cloaks and pops a barge from time to time thats also ur problem for mining alone in 0.0


guys cloaks are fine they got enough penalties as it is

LORD IZE
Posted - 2007.05.29 04:49:00 - [53]
 

Well it looks like cloaks are gettng nerfed next patch and it will probably be a nerf instead of something reasonable that just allows players to detect the afk cloaker. too bad more people didnt' support working to end the afk cloaker, now all will suffer.

Neuromandis
Posted - 2007.05.29 09:54:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: LORD IZE
Well it looks like cloaks are gettng nerfed next patch and it will probably be a nerf instead of something reasonable that just allows players to detect the afk cloaker. too bad more people didnt' support working to end the afk cloaker, now all will suffer.


I don't know where you're coming from. I am a coverts pilot and sure as hell this isn't gonna nerf me at all.

If they implemented something that DECLOAKS me so I cannot bust gatecamps and gather intel, then we would be talking about the permanent parking of the buzzard. Now? I'll just be probing people more, cause I know a cloak itself isn't gonna save them, and they'll actually need some skill to escape.

Draec Sjet
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2007.05.29 10:53:00 - [55]
 

afk cloaking only happens with ships that are not designed to have a cloak. the usual culprits are battleships.

but please, think about this. they can't move anywhere fast cloaked, they can't warp, they can't fire or anything, and the moment the y decloak, they're going to be visible on scanner.

taking viewable standings away from local does nothing

taking cloakers entirely out of local is the worst idea i have ever heard

it's a tactic people can use when using cloaks, just deal with it. if yo have an afk cloaker in your mining system, instead of wasting time on here trolling about it; think about how you could disuade them; protect your miners with ships of your own!

this game is brilliant in that there are so many different things you can do, so stop whinging and start playing this beautifully diverse game that is eve!

Sargeant HAmmer
Caldari
Caldari Star Industries Co
Posted - 2007.05.29 11:41:00 - [56]
 

so tell me something here

if i was to be watching a station without interacting with my ship to monitor people passing through, lets say in low sec (which face it, is as dangerous as 0.0) and i'm after a guy but im looking to find out what he flies, what do i do? i dont want him seeing me spying on him.

i could be sat there for 40 mins watching. i dont want to be kicked off at a vital moment as they undock do i now?

how can you determine if someone is afk in a cloak?

Neuromandis
Posted - 2007.05.29 13:33:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Sargeant HAmmer
so tell me something here

if i was to be watching a station without interacting with my ship to monitor people passing through, lets say in low sec (which face it, is as dangerous as 0.0) and i'm after a guy but im looking to find out what he flies, what do i do? i dont want him seeing me spying on him.

i could be sat there for 40 mins watching. i dont want to be kicked off at a vital moment as they undock do i now?

how can you determine if someone is afk in a cloak?


I don't understand what you are referring to, please clarify. Why be kicked? The new feature is just that cloakers are probable, nothing to do with afk or not (except for the fact that the only way to catch a cloaker with probes IS if he's afk...)

Trovax
Amarr
Posted - 2007.05.29 14:42:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Trovax on 29/05/2007 14:43:19
You all just want easy kills. Thats it.

'oh look at me i got a buzzard kill mail. took me ages to find and put up a huge fight against my Navy Geddon'

NOT!!

Nothing more. An AFK pilot poses no threat whatsoever. Its the uncloaked ones you wanna be careful of.

If you cant be asked to use a bit of teamwork to watch each others backs, when a single pilot is in the system, dont cry about it on the forums, and throw your teddy about, 'ITS NOT FAIR' style.

heres a tip for all you nerfers:

1>If there is a single cloaked afk ship in the system then he aint gonna be relaying intel. No worries. He might even be waiting for a gate camp to disperse so he can jump thru back to empire. Ive sat for 3 hours waiting for a camp to disperse. Havent logged cos i can talk to my corpies while waiting. And seeing as im CEO, i kinda need to be.

2>If there is a single cloaked ship in the system, yes he is probably active and relaying intel to his corpies, and seeing as he is an active pilot, dosent deserve to be nerfed. If he isnt relaying intel, then he isnt gonna attack on his own. so your safe.

3>If he is combat active, he probably has backup within (for arguments sake) 5 jumps. So you dont really want to be there. Move on.

4>He could possibly be doing exploration. Therefore while your sitting in the system trying to find him, gettin angry cos you cant cos hes cloaked, he is sitting cloaked because he has no interest in your PVP ambitions and would much rather play with the missions and other content that CCP have provided for those that wish to do so.

Unfortunatly, because of the 0.0 alliances NBSI policy, which i'm not saying is wrong in the slightest, but peeps who wish to got 0.0 need a solution. Which is the cloak. They have come up with a solution to protect themselves against you, so its only fair for you to come up with a solution for them.

At the end of the day, the end result is the same. If hes afk/on his own then he looses out. If hes not.... prepare for battle.



Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2007.05.29 15:19:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 29/05/2007 15:34:06
Originally by: Trovax
You all just want easy kills. Thats it.
No.
Pure imputation, which leads to the rest of the posting being ignored.

Anaalys Fluuterby, thanks for proving my point. Even if it was rather off-topic and even marked as a not so serious argument..
So all the cloaking ships they lost were due to stupidity. Now what would you call going/being AFK in EVE? Right.
Actually I mentioned Romulans and Klingons, because they know how to put cloaking devices to good use even if they can be detected.

Anyway..
The original topic of this thread is about 'if you're AFK and cloaked you should be findable'. There was nothing about 'nerf active cloakers' or 'nerf cloaks'.
That was all made up.
Please stay constructive instead of all that drama.

PS: yes, I am covops and recon pilot btw.

Trovax
Amarr
Posted - 2007.05.29 16:01:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Trovax on 29/05/2007 16:08:30
Edited by: Trovax on 29/05/2007 16:04:58

What Threat is a Cloaked AFK pilot?

Thats all i dont get.
And no one seems to be able to give a clear answer.
And 'Im scared of being in the system' isnt a clear answer.

Hense why i believe this NERF afk cloakers issue is a fabrication to force Covops Pilots to decloak when they least want to.

And yes, i am also covert ops.

Heres some links to the already discussed WTFPWN NERF IT issue :

Linkage 1
Linkage 2
Linkage 3 (not about cloak but about covops and highlights some of the already nerfed aspects of the SB's)
Linkage 4 (about gang cloaking)
Linkage 5 (Nerfed??)
Linkage 6

I dont mean this impolitly, but you said '..leads to the rest of the post being ignored', so now that ive got them all (i think) in the same place, can we try to keep this (sore) subject to one post. As you can all see, the same subject keep gettin brought up over and over....because they are gettin ignored. Confused



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