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Jared Lighthawk
Silver Aria
Posted - 2007.05.02 14:59:00 - [1]
 

I'm a new player, not even a month old into the game. Please keep that in mind before some of you out for blood attack.

Watching how the game works, and being stolen from or blown up a few times now, it seems the game by design favors pirates. An example is a rat with a 4.0 rating flies up and steals my ore and then blows up my ship (why he didn't in the other order I have no idea). What happens? Nothing, at all. I was in .4 space so no defense, and his rating is till 4.0 even though the game acknowledges he stole (aggression timer).

For someone who isn't a pirate we can't even defend ourselves against those that are unless they shoot first or we risk loosing our ratings and can get attacked by concord.

Maybe I just don't get how it all works, but from a new players point of view it certainly seems EVE rewards wanna be rats by design.

Roshan longshot
Gallente
Ordos Humanitas
Posted - 2007.05.02 15:04:00 - [2]
 

What do you really think the game is ment to be? Look down there.....

at my little sig.




Sophal
Posted - 2007.05.02 15:06:00 - [3]
 

Well mine/rat in safer areas. This game is not a carebear game and your gana have to watch your arse.

Angelica Krem
Posted - 2007.05.02 15:06:00 - [4]
 

A pirate will tell you that it's to hard to be a pirate, a victim will tell you that it's to easy to be a pirate. I guess that means it's balanced?

Chewan Mesa
Resurrection
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2007.05.02 15:06:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 02/05/2007 15:03:56
Generally, yes EVE is designed so everything is blowupable.

However, you might just not grasp the mechanics there.

If I got you right, you were in a 0.4 sec space, which means there indeed is no defence other than gate/station guns.

So, if he comes in in 0.4 and seems to take something from your can, just kill him, since as you saw, the security drop is only a %age, means he might drop 0.2 or something lower than he was before.

Once he steals from your can, he is flagged and you can shoot him without a sec stat. hit.

Also, dont rely on someone sec rating. If a pirate was in 0.0 for a week npcing he will have a positive sec status, if a anti pirate kills enough not-flashing pirates he will have a negative sec status.

Jared Lighthawk
Silver Aria
Posted - 2007.05.02 15:07:00 - [6]
 

That's true, however not actually a reply to my post. My post was about the game seeming to favor rat behavoir over anything else. I really don't care if someone wants to dawn their little pirate hat and pretend to be the scourge of deep space but it just seems that the way the system works they are favored.

Haks'he Lirky
Durgarnir
Posted - 2007.05.02 15:09:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Jared Lighthawk
That's true, however not actually a reply to my post. My post was about the game seeming to favor rat behavoir over anything else. I really don't care if someone wants to dawn their little pirate hat and pretend to be the scourge of deep space but it just seems that the way the system works they are favored.


Try being a pirate :)

Trust me the game mechanics are not favoured towards the pirate profession.

Jared Lighthawk
Silver Aria
Posted - 2007.05.02 15:09:00 - [8]
 

He flew up, stole from the can, blew me up and flew away to dock and wait out the timer asap. Efficient but what I mean is there's no negative side effects. His rating didn't change, at all.

Bah nevermind you guys are just looking for another person to gut.

Chewan Mesa
Resurrection
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2007.05.02 15:10:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 02/05/2007 15:08:10
Originally by: Jared Lighthawk
That's true, however not actually a reply to my post. My post was about the game seeming to favor rat behavoir over anything else. I really don't care if someone wants to dawn their little pirate hat and pretend to be the scourge of deep space but it just seems that the way the system works they are favored.



0.0 - 0.4 does. If you are in 0.5 or above concord protects you from being killed.

If you think this favors the pirates, then yes, EVE leans toward it. I dont really think its that way since you can be reasonably safe in high-sec if you watch out.

DubanFP
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.05.02 15:11:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Roshan longshot
What do you really think the game is ment to be? Look down there.....

at my little sig.





QFT

Heriom
Jotunheimr Productions Ltd.
Talos Coalition
Posted - 2007.05.02 15:11:00 - [11]
 

Jared your future lies in anti-pirating my friendVery Happy

Come join an anti pie corp or alliance and vent your anger on these paresitesSmile

Sen'ile
Posted - 2007.05.02 15:12:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Jared Lighthawk
That's true, however not actually a reply to my post. My post was about the game seeming to favor rat behavoir over anything else. I really don't care if someone wants to dawn their little pirate hat and pretend to be the scourge of deep space but it just seems that the way the system works they are favored.


no it doesnt.
the game favours work-work-work alot and not the fun pew-pew-pew as much.
pirates cant enter highsec space
anyone can shoot at them once they reach -5.0 sec
sentries dont help them if you attack them
if they attack you sentries will fire at them.

the odds are stacked in the non-pirates corner
all the pirates have are their skills and tactics and very often brass balls.

Drakin030
Caldari
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.05.02 15:12:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Jared Lighthawk
He flew up, stole from the can, blew me up and flew away to dock and wait out the timer asap. Efficient but what I mean is there's no negative side effects. His rating didn't change, at all.

Bah nevermind you guys are just looking for another person to gut.


Hey...You could always play WoW.

LLucan Dleaur
The Scope
Posted - 2007.05.02 15:13:00 - [14]
 

Welcome to Eve. Twisted Evil

[nitpick] First, non-player rats are usually called 'rats' versus player pirates. [/nitpick] Very Happy

You have it right. What makes Eve so unique is it is a big sandbox to play in. You can work to become a mega-industrialist or a pie-rat. This is one big Player-vs-Player orgy. I came into this game with pretty low opinions of "PKers" but this game warps all sense of ethics and morality. Pirating and skulduggery is a perfectly acceptable path of infamy. I haven't crossed over to the dark side yet, but give it time. It may happen one day. Twisted Evil

Don't let this stuff get under your skin. Each loss you experience is an opportunity to learn and become stronger. What kills you, makes you stronger. Razz And you will soon know how to protect yourself and your assets and minimize your risks. You might even find yourself going out and looking for blood.

Haks'he Lirky
Durgarnir
Posted - 2007.05.02 15:15:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Jared Lighthawk
He flew up, stole from the can, blew me up and flew away to dock and wait out the timer asap. Efficient but what I mean is there's no negative side effects. His rating didn't change, at all.

Bah nevermind you guys are just looking for another person to gut.


If he blew you up without activating an aggression timer then he got a security hit, even though it might not show on his rating, sometimes the sec rating lags as well to observers, sometimes I have had -1.9 but my friend saw -1.8.

In any case, if he shoots you without making you aggress him in some way first then he gets a sec rating hit.

Chewan Mesa
Resurrection
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2007.05.02 15:16:00 - [16]
 

Oh yeah and you now have killrights on him prolly.

Gladia Horusthu
Gallente
Ordo Pondera
Posted - 2007.05.02 15:20:00 - [17]
 

The game favors player versus player tactics at different levels. What you experienced is a part of that. Systems of different levels of security rating favor different types of pvp. For example, high-sec space favors market scams and attempts at destabilizing the market on some particular item. High and medium sec both are also good for can-flipping and ore theft, which leaves the thief vulnerable to attack back (but he is typically better equipped than a miner). Suicide ganking of high value targets is also common, as are scavengers stealing loot from both ganker and gankee.

In lowsec, there is piracy and basic combat just for s&g. You also get loot scavengers out here (I know one guy as a noob who made millions of ISK his first couple days stealing cans). Also, pipelines through 0.0 space start in lowsec, and often alliances will have presences here. Security status on a character means little, a negative security status might mean a pirate hunter (since there is still a sec hit in killing someone if their sec rating is above -5) and a pirate might have a high sec rating as easier access to 0.0 can mean ratting that raises security.

Thus, even outside of "lawless" space the game mechanisms provide for a range of "pirate" or at least hostile tactics that you read about quite a bit on this forum. This is encouraged by CCP. There are ways to avoid much of this, but they require specific types of gameplay and self-imposed limitations on your goals and tactics.

Nyabinghi
Minmatar
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Posted - 2007.05.02 15:26:00 - [18]
 

CONCORD was implemented in EVE so that things don't get too out of hand in high sec. CONCORD is a crude version of policing at best, they keep EVE from being a total gankfest but just barely. Pirates have figured out ways to circumvent CONCORD penalties ages ago.

So in effect yes EVE favors the pirate player over any other.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.05.02 15:32:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 02/05/2007 15:28:26
I'm not a new player, more than a year old into the game. Please keep that in mind before some of you out for blood attack.

Watching how the game works, and seeing carebear everywhere, the majority of the game-pop doing things with little or no risk, it seems the game by design favors carebears. An example mining/ratting/missions/trading/manufacturing etc. - free CNR:s in hi-sec. - you would think that these people would experience some REAL danger once in a while... what happens? Nothing, at all.

For someone who is a pirate we provide with a good risk vs. reward factor by being in low-sec (or 0.0) ... and these people hide behind concord, or sentry-guns.

Maybe I just don't get how it all works, but from an old players point of view it certainly seems EVE rewards wanna be solo-players by design.

ry ry
Heroes.
Merciless.
Posted - 2007.05.02 15:42:00 - [20]
 

"Does EVE favor piracy by design?"

yes. in the same way an ocean full of fish favours the shark, and a Serengeti full of game favours big cats.

um. or the human bowel favours the tapeworm.

Onchas Erivvia
The Ankou
Raiden.
Posted - 2007.05.02 16:03:00 - [21]
 

It is disappointing how few people have actually tried to respond to your concerns.

Yes, the game does favour the attacker. That's probably not that surprising though, is it?

In the situation where you're describing of being a miner, there's really nothing you're going to do to stop a pirate if you're on your own in low-sec.

Originally by: Jared Lighthawk
Watching how the game works, and being stolen from or blown up a few times now, it seems the game by design favors pirates. An example is a rat with a 4.0 rating flies up and steals my ore and then blows up my ship (why he didn't in the other order I have no idea). What happens? Nothing, at all. I was in .4 space so no defense, and his rating is till 4.0 even though the game acknowledges he stole (aggression timer).


0.4 mining is rarely done. Why? The number of pirates and how hard it is to defend yourself.

It is partially a game design issue. It's true that if you mine with a group it's easier to defend yourself against pirates, but there are game design issues that make cooperative mining difficult unless you trust the people you're working with. I won't lay out the whole argument here, but the game mechanics lacks the tools that ought to exist to help build trust other than taking that leap of faith. But there are a lot of people out there who WANT to grief people, who think stealing and ripping people off is a profession, and making a n00b alt and stealing a can of ore that way is considered to be an accomplishment.

The Pirate Hunter profession is also not well developed. A pirate hunter faces the exact same penalties for PvP as a pirate. There ought to be some version of a letter of Marquis that gives someone license to hunt pirates in the area.

Quote:
For someone who isn't a pirate we can't even defend ourselves against those that are unless they shoot first or we risk loosing our ratings and can get attacked by concord.


You won't get Concorded in 0.1-0.4 space. Those are considered "low-sec". The gate and base guns will shoot at you but Concord won't come. Concord is a police force that only enforces rules in high sec (0.5 and above). And even then, Concord is a responding force. You could very well get ganked before they get there if your aggressor is willing to take the death.

Quote:
Maybe I just don't get how it all works, but from a new players point of view it certainly seems EVE rewards wanna be rats by design.


"Rats" in this case means "pirates". And yes, it does. But not for the reasons you think. If you were to cooperatively work together with other miners and bring along ships to defend you, you'd be fine by and large. What discourages that is the lack of secure mechanisms for sharing minerals with ad hoc groups and the fact that the more people you have defending you, the less overall profit you make. Quickly mining can go from being profitable to unprofitable.


Oh, and the hardest thing about pirating is finding people to kill. That's because of the abundance of pirates basically chasing everyone off. Pirating's not actually hard. It's pretty simple PvP really. They're rarely going to face any sort of organized response and rarely going to have to deal with a probing ship.

Mushise
Posted - 2007.05.02 16:20:00 - [22]
 

Eve does not favor piracy.

- Players get concord protection + 6 sentries at every gate with target jamming concord in .5-1.0
- Players get Sentry protection at stations and gates in .4-.1
- Players get warp to 0km option

That warp to 0km has killed piracy in so many ways. The only people getting ganked in empire are the people that are AFK and this game isn't ment to be played AFK.

Onchas Erivvia
The Ankou
Raiden.
Posted - 2007.05.02 16:25:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Mushise
Eve does not favor piracy.


Which is why low-sec is over run with mission runners and miners.

err...

DarkFenix
Caldari
Lords 0f Ruin
Posted - 2007.05.02 16:31:00 - [24]
 

Eve is a great big sandbox with thousands of kids playing in it. 0.0-0.4 are the corners of the sandbox out of sight of all the responsible adults making sure the kids play nice. Does this area favour pirates? Not as such, it just doesn't not favour them. Out there the bigger kids can break your toys without much repercussion.

Long story short, if you enter lowsec unprepared you're asking to be popped. All you need to do is shrug, get another ship and learn from your mistake. Eve is full of mistakes waiting to be learned from the hard way, and that's part of what makes it so great.

Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
Posted - 2007.05.02 16:35:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Wendat Huron on 02/05/2007 16:30:53
Originally by: Drakin030
Originally by: Jared Lighthawk
He flew up, stole from the can, blew me up and flew away to dock and wait out the timer asap. Efficient but what I mean is there's no negative side effects. His rating didn't change, at all.

Bah nevermind you guys are just looking for another person to gut.


Hey...You could always play WoW.


Drakin030 is hiding in the Westfall forest on the Ravenhold RP-PvP server, anyways that's what my location agent told me.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.05.02 16:36:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Onchas Erivvia
Originally by: Mushise
Eve does not favor piracy.


Which is why low-sec is over run with mission runners and miners.

err...


They don't go to low-sec, because they can run missions without risk in hi-sec. It's a rational choice thing.

Miri Tirzan
Caldari
Clan Korval
Posted - 2007.05.02 16:41:00 - [27]
 

Actually, to answer your actual question. Yes, the game mechanics in Eve are pirate-centric. This is especially true in lowsec (.4-.1) systems. Now there will be many flames about this but truth is that if your doing anything that is not combat related, then pirates always have the advantage. Even in highsec, pirates have the advantage. Why? there are several reason but the main ones.

1. Securty Standing - The pirates dont care if they loose security standing, but the builder or miner must care or they take a hit in doing economic pvp. This is also why in lowsec, the pirate will get the first shot.

2. Alts - With the use of alts, the pirates dont have to worry about getting into highsec to sell or buy, they just send an alt. Alts also ruin alot of professions and player interactions but it is too late now to do anything.

3. Risk vs Reward - pretty much there is none for pirates. Thier ships are insured so they are only out the cost of the modules. They get to initiate the ganking since the non-pirate would take a loss for starting a fight.

Till some of these issues are addressed, then yeah, the pirates have all the advantages and few disavantages.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2007.05.02 17:15:00 - [28]
 

I flew into an area where people are allowed to kill people.

I got killed.

Thus, Eve favors killing.

...

Negative. The logical conclusion is in fact that flying into areas where people are allowed to kill you favors getting killed.

Blacklight
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.05.02 17:18:00 - [29]
 

When I think about all the changes over the last 3.5 years that have made it progressively harder to pirate these threads don't half make me chuckle.

Eve is considerably safer these days, even in 0.1-0.4 than it ever was, mechanics have evolved over the years to make it far harder to effectively pirate. I'm not sure that Eve does favour those whose play style involves attacking weaker targets any more, I think rather that Eve favours those who are prepared to put the effort in and particularly those who work in a team.

The aggressor in a PvP fitted ship has the advantage over the defender in a non-PvP fitted ship for sure and so it should remain. There are however far more opportunities to escape, evade, get revenge etc. than there ever were.

CCP have given plenty of consideration to ensuring the Serengeti's wildebeest herds are not totally consumed by the lions Wink

Ke Jung
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2007.05.02 17:19:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
I flew into an area where people are allowed to kill people.

An area of Eve where you are not allowed to kill. That sounds very interesting, please tell me more about this area.


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