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Zarthan
Sturmgrenadier Inc
Posted - 2004.01.03 03:36:00 - [121]
 

Player stations come shiva will be a big help to starting to control space. I think a few things will be critical to making player owned sations work properly.

A) The owners should be able to ban people from docking so that locals who are not liked by them cant hide inside their own station.

B) Owners have to be able to set rent prices for use of their station including % of ore taken for refining in it. In 0.0 systems in deep space stations could be very very profitable in minerals taken alone. Really in the long run making them worth the investment.

C) Stations have to have adequate defences built in. Meaning player stations should have turret points built into them that would act if agression was shown twoards the station. Furthermore people with bad standigns twoards the corporation owning the station should be shot by the station on site. Finally station defenses should not be limited in range. I'd imagine at least 2 turrets that do 100 dmg every 2 seconds would be adequate built in defense for player owned stations.

D) stations themselves should not have uber guns and should be able to be destroyed. Granted however they should be incredibly hard to destroy and require a large fleet to do so. Thier shields and armor should be more resistant then your normal ship (something like 40% to all on both shield and armor).

E) IMO there should only be 1 player owned station allowed per system. By doing this it gives more of an importants to having your station in a give system.

In addition to player stations and together with player stations, IMO once you build a station you should be able to hire npc guards for the system. Since you would now effectivly cotnrolt he system yous hould be able to "hire" police drones. These would NOT be the uber concord drones but be more like the drones from the original realease that coudl destroy a battleship in mass numbers but not very easily. Thusly making them a deterant and not impossible.

Keeval
Gallente
Posted - 2004.01.03 10:54:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: Keeval on 03/01/2004 10:55:35
Quote:

What I'm saying is that right now the game has 2 sides when it comes to PvP, Disneyland and Afghanistan (Cold War Era). You dream of being able to place a station somewhere out in 0.0 space? Right now I'd say the only alliance that stands a chance of defending a non-permanent structure with any real longevity is FA. If the NVA had a station, it'd have been destroyed or overrun a long, LONG time ago by FE. Curse Alliance would have trampled any assets of the CFS, while never being able to maintain any assets of their own never being home.

Dunno enough about the SA to make a estimate other than to ask "Who in the SA owns the station today?" Twisted Evil

That's at the alliance level of the game. Now what chance do you see of a middle size corp being able to hold onto a piece of a station to call their own in that environment? Realistically?

I understand the importance of needing something to build and call home. I'm questioning the priority given such without the middle ground of the game being in place. 0.0 space will never be friendly to the mid-size corp unless they join an alliance. At which point, they're not playing the middle ground game but the alliance end game, most of whom aren't ready for that (which becomes obvious when the alliance gets attacked and they go broke first).


Not getting into the issue of if alliances can hold there stations or not. To give the smaller and medium sized corps a chance, why not allow the station owners to rent offices to the smaller corps (with full abilities to close them down etc.. if hostilities begin) just like the NPC stations.

That would also be a good way to provide a provisional entry system for a corp into any alliance. At the least it would give rise to negotiation and a base for smaller corps in 0.0 so that they can build.

Also the owners of those offices may choose to help in the stations defence in the event of an attack (every little helps) Cool.




Wylaf Umberg
Posted - 2004.01.03 14:24:00 - [123]
 

Quote:
Player stations come shiva will be a big help to starting to control space. I think a few things will be critical to making player owned sations work properly.

A) The owners should be able to ban people from docking so that locals who are not liked by them cant hide inside their own station.




This is a really great idea if you want to:
A) make sure that big corps can dominate;
B) make sure that space can be effedtively closed to anybody these owners don't like.

Result: a universe where you really can't move about very much unless you pay toll everywhere.

Don't know whose ideal such a world is, certainly not anything having to do with opportunity and free movement.

WhiteDwarf
Caldari
Battlestars
Posted - 2004.01.03 14:59:00 - [124]
 

"This is a really great idea if you want to:
A) make sure that big corps can dominate;
B) make sure that space can be effedtively closed to anybody these owners don't like.

Result: a universe where you really can't move about very much unless you pay toll everywhere.

Don't know whose ideal such a world is, certainly not anything having to do with opportunity and free movement"

I agree, his view seems to be quite biased...

One PC station per system? That is rediculous! Why all the planets & moons then???

It's an ignorant "mega corp" point of view.

I say if there is a system with a great deal of high end ore, let there be a bunch of corps with a bunch of stations fighting it out in that system...

The idea of a few corps cutting off an entire region of space in this game is one of the biggest problems, not highlights...

Riddari
VIT
Posted - 2004.01.03 16:50:00 - [125]
 

Quote:
A) The owners should be able to ban people from docking so that locals who are not liked by them cant hide inside their own station.

B) Owners have to be able to set rent prices for use of their station including % of ore taken for refining in it. In 0.0 systems in deep space stations could be very very profitable in minerals taken alone. Really in the long run making them worth the investment.


This was available in BETA. I had to be added to an access list to dock at the HDY Station I think.

I think the Station Managers can set all these things, who can dock, who can't, tax per corps etc.

Zarthan
Sturmgrenadier Inc
Posted - 2004.01.03 20:12:00 - [126]
 

I myself am not in a megacorp, however stations owners need to have control of the stations. Also owning space is impossible right now and the 1 station idea was possibly a way to add the owning space aspect into the game.

Saying that anyone should be able to dock at and use their stations is insane. If I was a megacorp with a station in deep space I wouldnt want the local pirate talking smack to me from my own station. The whole concept of that is isane.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2004.01.03 20:50:00 - [127]
 

1) It's already been said that CCP isn't focusing on the full fledged stations even with Shiva. I'm not sad to see them go personally because they were indestructable and unconquerable. Just another Battleship Goal to be honest.

2) The people focus on player owned station honestly worries me so long as the middle ground issue remains unaddressed. 90% of the people in this thread don't have a hope of maintaining anything outside of Empire space that isn't defended by the NPCs. Stashing stuff and holing up inside an indestructable, unconquerable NPC station is being defended by the NPCs.

Zarthan: Unforgivn shows 3 members. As a pirate group you're allowed to exist simply because it's not worth the time investment to annihilate you for most people. Nothing personal, just an honest estimate from someone that's been on that side. Hunting down 3 people in a region is extremely time consuming and manpower intensive. And simply by actively hunting you, your attackers can starve you out because while you're running from the 10 ship task force, you're not pirating. You're not earning an income. And even fools get lucky so you will take losses.

With the ability to consolidate control over a solar system, and thereby control the region beyond, a group the size of your corp dies with no place to go. Alliances will be able to control yours and everyone's access to the region (and most alliances take a decidedly anti-pirate public stance).

So unless you're an alt of someone else, Zarthan, I don't understand your position. I can see from what's happening now that continuing on present course most small-mid size corps/freelancers will have nothing to look forward to beyond interacting with NPC pirates, NPC buy orders and low-mid end roids inside empire space.

Zarthan
Sturmgrenadier Inc
Posted - 2004.01.03 22:36:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: Zarthan on 03/01/2004 22:39:37
Quote:
1) It's already been said that CCP isn't focusing on the full fledged stations even with Shiva. I'm not sad to see them go personally because they were indestructable and unconquerable. Just another Battleship Goal to be honest.

2) The people focus on player owned station honestly worries me so long as the middle ground issue remains unaddressed. 90% of the people in this thread don't have a hope of maintaining anything outside of Empire space that isn't defended by the NPCs. Stashing stuff and holing up inside an indestructable, unconquerable NPC station is being defended by the NPCs.

Zarthan: Unforgivn shows 3 members. As a pirate group you're allowed to exist simply because it's not worth the time investment to annihilate you for most people. Nothing personal, just an honest estimate from someone that's been on that side. Hunting down 3 people in a region is extremely time consuming and manpower intensive. And simply by actively hunting you, your attackers can starve you out because while you're running from the 10 ship task force, you're not pirating. You're not earning an income. And even fools get lucky so you will take losses.

With the ability to consolidate control over a solar system, and thereby control the region beyond, a group the size of your corp dies with no place to go. Alliances will be able to control yours and everyone's access to the region (and most alliances take a decidedly anti-pirate public stance).

So unless you're an alt of someone else, Zarthan, I don't understand your position. I can see from what's happening now that continuing on present course most small-mid size corps/freelancers will have nothing to look forward to beyond interacting with NPC pirates, NPC buy orders and low-mid end roids inside empire space.


I have my ways of making money but due to the fact that there would be some that would obviously like to see that end I wont go into how. Needless to say I won't be having a major money shortage anytime soon. As for small and moderate size corps they will always have roles in the game. Empire space can never be controled by other corporations and it will be impossible even for mega corps to be able to afford to control more then a system or two via fleets and station support.

One thing i might add, if the megacorps can build stations in deep space this will push the megacorps furthr out into space imo, and possibly open up some of the closer deep space to the moderate and small size corperations. Just a thought, and or a moderate size corp could possibly setup an outpus in the far depths fo space in order to build income. In either case player stations IMO will only help and not hinder the moderate and smaller corps.

I have heard ccp's current scheme for stations and to me it sounds more like shanty towns then player owned stations. CCP seems to be looking at player stations as a way for multiple corps and players to combine resources to make huge shanty citys. Reality is only alliances will probably build these things in deep space but will see come shiva's realease downt he road.

however, as it stands now I think the more pressing matter is growing intrest in 0.0 space. This can be achieved without shiva through many differnt ways and I think this should be CCP's #1 priority after bug fixes for castor.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2004.01.03 22:57:00 - [129]
 

Quote:

I have my ways of making money but due to the fact that there would be some that would obviously like to see that end I wont go into how. Needless to say I won't be having a major money shortage anytime soon. As for small and moderate size corps they will always have roles in the game. Empire space can never be controled by other corporations and it will be impossible even for mega corps to be able to afford to control more then a system or two via fleets and station support.

One thing i might add, if the megacorps can build stations in deep space this will push the megacorps furthr out into space imo, and possibly open up some of the closer deep space to the moderate and small size corperations. Just a thought, and or a moderate size corp could possibly setup an outpus in the far depths fo space in order to build income. In either case player stations IMO will only help and not hinder the moderate and smaller corps.

I have heard ccp's current scheme for stations and to me it sounds more like shanty towns then player owned stations. CCP seems to be looking at player stations as a way for multiple corps and players to combine resources to make huge shanty citys. Reality is only alliances will probably build these things in deep space but will see come shiva's realease downt he road.

however, as it stands now I think the more pressing matter is growing intrest in 0.0 space. This can be achieved without shiva through many differnt ways and I think this should be CCP's #1 priority after bug fixes for castor.


Ah...then you're somebody's alt Rolling Eyes

Zarthan
Sturmgrenadier Inc
Posted - 2004.01.03 23:08:00 - [130]
 

Quote:
Quote:

I have my ways of making money but due to the fact that there would be some that would obviously like to see that end I wont go into how. Needless to say I won't be having a major money shortage anytime soon. As for small and moderate size corps they will always have roles in the game. Empire space can never be controled by other corporations and it will be impossible even for mega corps to be able to afford to control more then a system or two via fleets and station support.

One thing i might add, if the megacorps can build stations in deep space this will push the megacorps furthr out into space imo, and possibly open up some of the closer deep space to the moderate and small size corperations. Just a thought, and or a moderate size corp could possibly setup an outpus in the far depths fo space in order to build income. In either case player stations IMO will only help and not hinder the moderate and smaller corps.

I have heard ccp's current scheme for stations and to me it sounds more like shanty towns then player owned stations. CCP seems to be looking at player stations as a way for multiple corps and players to combine resources to make huge shanty citys. Reality is only alliances will probably build these things in deep space but will see come shiva's realease downt he road.

however, as it stands now I think the more pressing matter is growing intrest in 0.0 space. This can be achieved without shiva through many differnt ways and I think this should be CCP's #1 priority after bug fixes for castor.


Ah...then you're somebody's alt Rolling Eyes


Or is somone my altQuestion Really I'm probably a ccp dev hacking to be rich right Rolling Eyes. In any case that's not really the topic of discussion here, so lets please not get into a debate over how I make my money, or even where my intrests lie. The important thing is to solve current issues players have with the game and suggest wasy of changing things in all players intrests.

To that extent using more suggested idea's i've come up with yet another idea.

Problem 9 (i think) Moving Ships: Yes it's been said some repackaged ships may be able to be repackaged into indy's in the future, or at least it's beign considered, but what about larger ships?

Prosposed Solution: I'd suggest with the advent of tech 2 adding a new high slot moduel to the mix. This being a tractor beam of sorts and or tow chain. This would only be activateable on abandon ships in space. Also once in tow unless the ship doing the towing was destroyed or deactivated the tow line the abandon ship would be unable to be boarded. The size of the ship would effect the tow ships top speed, also I think to avoid explotation only an industrial should have the ability to use such items. This would allow people to move things like battleshisp to stations without actualyl being able to pilot the ship themselves (as docking with a ship in tow would dock both ships).

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2004.01.03 23:32:00 - [131]
 

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:

I have my ways of making money but due to the fact that there would be some that would obviously like to see that end I wont go into how. Needless to say I won't be having a major money shortage anytime soon. As for small and moderate size corps they will always have roles in the game. Empire space can never be controled by other corporations and it will be impossible even for mega corps to be able to afford to control more then a system or two via fleets and station support.

One thing i might add, if the megacorps can build stations in deep space this will push the megacorps furthr out into space imo, and possibly open up some of the closer deep space to the moderate and small size corperations. Just a thought, and or a moderate size corp could possibly setup an outpus in the far depths fo space in order to build income. In either case player stations IMO will only help and not hinder the moderate and smaller corps.

I have heard ccp's current scheme for stations and to me it sounds more like shanty towns then player owned stations. CCP seems to be looking at player stations as a way for multiple corps and players to combine resources to make huge shanty citys. Reality is only alliances will probably build these things in deep space but will see come shiva's realease downt he road.

however, as it stands now I think the more pressing matter is growing intrest in 0.0 space. This can be achieved without shiva through many differnt ways and I think this should be CCP's #1 priority after bug fixes for castor.


Ah...then you're somebody's alt Rolling Eyes


Or is somone my altQuestion Really I'm probably a ccp dev hacking to be rich right Rolling Eyes. In any case that's not really the topic of discussion here, so lets please not get into a debate over how I make my money, or even where my intrests lie. The important thing is to solve current issues players have with the game and suggest wasy of changing things in all players intrests.


No, how you make your money and where your interest lay are pertinent to the discussion.

Why would you care how difficult your suggestions make it for small corp group if 90% of your time is spent on your Evolution main, for example? Altruism? Perspective influences a lot of things.

Drethen Nerevitas
Posted - 2004.01.03 23:50:00 - [132]
 

Quote:
Prosposed Solution: I'd suggest with the advent of tech 2 adding a new high slot moduel to the mix. This being a tractor beam of sorts and or tow chain. This would only be activateable on abandon ships in space. Also once in tow unless the ship doing the towing was destroyed or deactivated the tow line the abandon ship would be unable to be boarded. The size of the ship would effect the tow ships top speed, also I think to avoid explotation only an industrial should have the ability to use such items. This would allow people to move things like battleshisp to stations without actualyl being able to pilot the ship themselves (as docking with a ship in tow would dock both ships).

How could it be exploited if normal ships could use them?
Have frigate size, cruiser size, BS size tractor beams. Allow ganged members to team up...so for example five Punishers might team up to tow a Maller somewhere. Maybe cruiser tractors fittable onto frigates, BS size onto cruisers, but only barely, so you could end up having "tugs", so to speak.
Work something out based on mass, topspeed. If for example a frigate sized tractor was being used to tug a Bestower, let's say the frigate's topspeed is 500. It can attain 250 speed, but, since it's only a weakish frigate tractor, it takes a long time to accelerate, decelerate, and turn (as in, minutes to turn 90 degrees). A cruiser tractor on the other hand would allow for more rapid manouvering, since it has a higher power. If you mounted a tractor onto a cruiser instead of a frigate, you would end up having less "drag" from the Bestower you're tugging...if for example you fly off to the right and the Bestower continues forwards, the slingshot effect won't drag you after it as much as if you were in a lightweight frigate. (So if you were flying a frigate and made a sharp turn, the Bestower would keep on flying past and drag you along with it until your engines slowed you both down again...perhaps structural damage for this sort of thing?-Can't be good for your hull integrity, being yanked along behind a ship 100* as big as you)
Well...etc Razz. Just don't limit tractor beam type modules if they do get in Rolling Eyes.

[/spam] Embarassed

MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2004.01.04 01:18:00 - [133]
 

Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 04/01/2004 01:23:44
Quote:
With the ability to consolidate control over a solar system, and thereby control the region beyond, a group the size of your corp dies with no place to go. Alliances will be able to control yours and everyone's access to the region (and most alliances take a decidedly anti-pirate public stance).


Then simply change the universe so it isnīt possible to control regions by occupying solarsystemsRolling Eyes. Again: This is not a problem with POS, itīs a problem with the universe map... regional connections to be precise. Add more connections to the problematic regions and the problem is gone. There are a myriad of ways to counter this.

Itīs all a matter of balancing and implementation. Sure you can say that with POS in the game regions will be blocked or whatever apocalyptic gamedesign flaw you might envision but certainly CCP arenīt dumb enough to not see these problems right now. They will do things and patch the game to get rid of those problems and like Hellmar said it should and will take thousands of people to block a region. So after all, that argument is obsolete in my eyes. Remember that what doesnīt fit will be changed to make it fit.

Still I have the opinion that POS/Shiva is more important than anything else to come. Player owned structures will have such a huge impact on the game that implementing them must be done extremely carefully and it must be done asap and not in a few months because anything you do to the game right now will be pretty much obsolete once POS are in.
POS will change the face of EvE in such a drastic way that anything else in the game is dependant on its implementation, which is the reason why it must be done now... not in a few months. Actually, it shouldīve been done before release and in my eyes not doing that was the biggest mistake CCP ever did.
You can adjust, tweak and patch whatever you want and it will most likely make the game better, but once POS are in you will have to change all this again because the way players play the game will drastically change. Power-structures will change as economic strengths and weaknesses of corporations start to actually affect corporate wars and combat in general... and that is only one aspect of the game changing because of the existence of POS.

Itīs pretty much as with a PC and its CPU. The entire configuration of a computer is dependant on the CPU, so why would you want to start tuning GPUs, RAMs, HDDs and the Mainboard before you have chosen and bought the CPU? It just doesnīt make sense as the choice you make when buying the CPU affects all other parts of your computer and dictates parts of the way you go when tuning your computer later on. Without the CPU a computer is nothing but a useless pile of electronic parts. Shiva... is EvEīs CPU and IMHO EvE is not a finished game as long as Shiva isnīt implemented.

Another thing I found pretty hard to catch in your posts Jash:

Quote:
2) The people focus on player owned station honestly worries me so long as the middle ground issue remains unaddressed. 90% of the people in this thread don't have a hope of maintaining anything outside of Empire space that isn't defended by the NPCs. Stashing stuff and holing up inside an indestructable, unconquerable NPC station is being defended by the NPCs.


Why exactly would 90% in here have no hope of maintaining anything out there in 0.0? Isnīt this only a question of gamedesign? Just an extreme example:
When a corp decides to venture out into deepspace and they are able to set up 150+ sentry guns in the system... each of them being half as strong as an NPC sentry gun on Tranq right now, wouldnīt it be extremely hard for any fleet in this game to conquer the system?
Donīt get me wrong Iīm not trying to offend you in any way but somehow I find it disturbing how you can say what 90% of the people can/canīt do when the only instance affecting that is CCP and their gamedesigners.

Then that "middle ground" issue youīre talking about all the time. OK we have the suggestion of staged/delayed concord response in <.4 systems but what exactly do you think that "middle ground" should be? Maybe I didnīt read properly but I didnīt read a single suggestion from you on how to fix this "middle ground problem" youīre talking about all the time.

Cheers

Disclaimer: Please note that Iīm writing all this with a smile on my face and itīs not my intention to offend or flame anyone, ever. My only intention is discussing stuff to form conrete suggestions on how to improve the game.

Zarthan
Sturmgrenadier Inc
Posted - 2004.01.04 01:45:00 - [134]
 

Quote:
No, how you make your money and where your interest lay are pertinent to the discussion.

Why would you care how difficult your suggestions make it for small corp group if 90% of your time is spent on your Evolution main, for example? Altruism? Perspective influences a lot of things.


I say there not because we need everyone's point of view. If you wish to think mine is slanted in favor of larger corps that's fine. So then a good idea would be to describe a way to make that idea more fair for smaller and moderate size corps. I'll tell you now and only once though I am not a member of any corporation over 10 members currently with any character I play.

Quote:
How could it be exploited if normal ships could use them?


Unless you could only use them on an abandon ship then people could use them like webefiers. Using an indy in a combat sitation is not something you can do. So really I guess what ship they should be allowed on would be up to CCP and their ability to code it in a manner that only a derelict ship could be moved. However IMO I think a battleship shouldn't simply because that's the same concept of allowing battleships to transport battleships in their cargo hold. IE little risk to the transporter with the valuable cargo. Something many people use armageddons and apocalypses for.




Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2004.01.04 03:13:00 - [135]
 

Edited by: Jash Illian on 04/01/2004 03:18:44
Quote:

Another thing I found pretty hard to catch in your posts Jash:

Quote:
2) The people focus on player owned station honestly worries me so long as the middle ground issue remains unaddressed. 90% of the people in this thread don't have a hope of maintaining anything outside of Empire space that isn't defended by the NPCs. Stashing stuff and holing up inside an indestructable, unconquerable NPC station is being defended by the NPCs.


Why exactly would 90% in here have no hope of maintaining anything out there in 0.0? Isnīt this only a question of gamedesign? Just an extreme example:
When a corp decides to venture out into deepspace and they are able to set up 150+ sentry guns in the system... each of them being half as strong as an NPC sentry gun on Tranq right now, wouldnīt it be extremely hard for any fleet in this game to conquer the system?
Donīt get me wrong Iīm not trying to offend you in any way but somehow I find it disturbing how you can say what 90% of the people can/canīt do when the only instance affecting that is CCP and their gamedesigners.

Then that "middle ground" issue youīre talking about all the time. OK we have the suggestion of staged/delayed concord response in <.4 systems but what exactly do you think that "middle ground" should be? Maybe I didnīt read properly but I didnīt read a single suggestion from you on how to fix this "middle ground problem" youīre talking about all the time.

Cheers

Disclaimer: Please note that Iīm writing all this with a smile on my face and itīs not my intention to offend or flame anyone, ever. My only intention is discussing stuff to form conrete suggestions on how to improve the game.


The reason I say that is because balance demands it. You've seen the fights between the Alliances (or at least the reports of them). The NVA summoning up 60 ships to stand against the Forsaken Empire's 30+ ships. If you can setup automated defenses able to withstand those type of forces, then it's not balanced in the slightest.

And if the stations or mini-cities are permanent, then it's a pointless waste of effort because obviously you can't defend something that doesn't need defending. And controlling the territory becomes nothing more than a race to see who can construct them the fastest. Then who can own the most.

Just like battleships.

The real majority of the game aren't allied, don't have spare battleships, don't have stockpiles of minerals and don't have blueprints for every thing they use. The real majority will not be able to hold a single solar system when Forsaken Empire decides to go on a rampage, Fountain Alliance decides someone's in their way or some unforseen person decides to go Caesar on the playerbase.

Welcome back to mining inside empire space, running missions and chaining rats in the lower sec solar systems. Did you enjoy wasting a lot of effort?

And I'm not talking out of my ass here either. I play a game with territory control. A game where the bases have a limited window of vulnerability every day. A game where the bases have level limits preventing higher level players from steamrolling low level bases, something which Eve does not. With automated defenses and bases that are entirely capable of holding off the random attack.

And where the highest level bases with the best defenses get steamrolled without an active defense if enough attackers come, which happens. Where the faction sides go on raiding parties hitting destroying several bases per night. Where the owners of the bases and their allies have to drop what they're doing to teleport back to defend their base or have it destroyed. Where the developers had to implement game mechanics to force people out of grid areas due to lag during the attacks. And where a single organization has no hope of holding off a determined attack, even with the game mechanics working to keep the odds in their favor numerically, as attrition wears out the defenders.

Territory control is high end game material. But both by definition and in actuality, the majority of the players are not high end players. That's why I say 90% of the people. I figure maybe 10% of the game population belongs to a cohesive enough alliance to hold a few stations. Everyone else will get stomped if they try.

Zarthan
Sturmgrenadier Inc
Posted - 2004.01.04 22:19:00 - [136]
 

Quote:
Edited by: Jash Illian on 04/01/2004 03:18:44
Quote:

Another thing I found pretty hard to catch in your posts Jash:

Quote:
2) The people focus on player owned station honestly worries me so long as the middle ground issue remains unaddressed. 90% of the people in this thread don't have a hope of maintaining anything outside of Empire space that isn't defended by the NPCs. Stashing stuff and holing up inside an indestructable, unconquerable NPC station is being defended by the NPCs.


Why exactly would 90% in here have no hope of maintaining anything out there in 0.0? Isnīt this only a question of gamedesign? Just an extreme example:
When a corp decides to venture out into deepspace and they are able to set up 150+ sentry guns in the system... each of them being half as strong as an NPC sentry gun on Tranq right now, wouldnīt it be extremely hard for any fleet in this game to conquer the system?
Donīt get me wrong Iīm not trying to offend you in any way but somehow I find it disturbing how you can say what 90% of the people can/canīt do when the only instance affecting that is CCP and their gamedesigners.

Then that "middle ground" issue youīre talking about all the time. OK we have the suggestion of staged/delayed concord response in <.4 systems but what exactly do you think that "middle ground" should be? Maybe I didnīt read properly but I didnīt read a single suggestion from you on how to fix this "middle ground problem" youīre talking about all the time.

Cheers

Disclaimer: Please note that Iīm writing all this with a smile on my face and itīs not my intention to offend or flame anyone, ever. My only intention is discussing stuff to form conrete suggestions on how to improve the game.


The reason I say that is because balance demands it. You've seen the fights between the Alliances (or at least the reports of them). The NVA summoning up 60 ships to stand against the Forsaken Empire's 30+ ships. If you can setup automated defenses able to withstand those type of forces, then it's not balanced in the slightest.

And if the stations or mini-cities are permanent, then it's a pointless waste of effort because obviously you can't defend something that doesn't need defending. And controlling the territory becomes nothing more than a race to see who can construct them the fastest. Then who can own the most.

Just like battleships.

The real majority of the game aren't allied, don't have spare battleships, don't have stockpiles of minerals and don't have blueprints for every thing they use. The real majority will not be able to hold a single solar system when Forsaken Empire decides to go on a rampage, Fountain Alliance decides someone's in their way or some unforseen person decides to go Caesar on the playerbase.

Welcome back to mining inside empire space, running missions and chaining rats in the lower sec solar systems. Did you enjoy wasting a lot of effort?

And I'm not talking out of my ass here either. I play a game with territory control. A game where the bases have a limited window of vulnerability every day. A game where the bases have level limits preventing higher level players from steamrolling low level bases, something which Eve does not. With automated defenses and bases that are entirely capable of holding off the random attack.

And where the highest level bases with the best defenses get steamrolled without an active defense if enough attackers come, which happens. Where the faction sides go on raiding parties hitting destroying several bases per night. Where the owners of the bases and their allies have to drop what they're doing to teleport back to defend their base or have it destroyed. Where the developers had to implement game mechanics to force people out of grid areas due to lag during the attacks. And where a single organization has no hope of holding off a determined attack, even with the game mechanics working to keep the odds in their favor numerically, as attrition wears out the defenders.

Territory control is high end game material. But both by definition and in actuality, the majority of the players are not high end players. That's why I say 90% of the people. I figure maybe 10% of the game population belongs to a cohesive enough alliance to hold a few stations. Everyone else will get stomped if they try.


totally agree that player owned bases can not be indestructable and able to defend themselves even against massive forces. However a part of 2 or 3 battleships shouldn't be able to wipe them out either. It should at least take 10+ battleships to be able to take a player owned station out if the initial investment is going to be as high as some predict.

MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2004.01.05 03:22:00 - [137]
 

Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 05/01/2004 03:43:07
Three things Jash:

Quote:
The reason I say that is because balance demands it. You've seen the fights between the Alliances (or at least the reports of them). The NVA summoning up 60 ships to stand against the Forsaken Empire's 30+ ships. If you can setup automated defenses able to withstand those type of forces, then it's not balanced in the slightest.


Why not balanced in the slightest? You probably would have to invest billions and billions of isk into it so why would it not be balanced if that defense system at least severely damages parts of the incoming fleet? And btw all this is still only speculation as CCP still havenīt said how exactly POS and especially defensive systems will work. And additionally... itīs not like most alliances would love to wander around in 0.0 bashing small bases losing battleships all over the place. They probably will have better stuff to do than that I guess.
Just look at the entire TTI thing back then. TTI as an economical monster should have been able to let at least a noticeable part of their enemies smash against their wall of defense. Without POS though... all they could do is watch as their people got smacked around and fleets entered their systems without anything besides their own ships/pilots holding them back. No base there to show how efficient their economics worked, no sentry guns to act as their form of defense. Nothing. No opportunity for them to show that economics and trade can get you anything besides isk on your wallet and enemies entering your systems as if theyīre jumping through Yulai.

Quote:
Territory control is high end game material. But both by definition and in actuality, the majority of the players are not high end players. That's why I say 90% of the people. I figure maybe 10% of the game population belongs to a cohesive enough alliance to hold a few stations. Everyone else will get stomped if they try.


So what are you saying? That 90% of the people playing the game shouldnīt be able to set up a base in 0.0 because "balance demands it" and theyīre not "highend"? That more than 60% of the universe was created for 10% of the people in EvE to make a living in because everyone else will and should get stomped if they try?
Sorry but thatīs not my impression of what balance demands.

In Mankind as a player I was perfectly able to defend my system against forces as strong and even stronger than I was. As an alliance we did manage to defend our systems against bigger alliances when they attacked us, because we had sentries at our disposal and we invested a huge part of our daily playing time into building that defense grid and defensive forces.
Properly setup bases were always a hard nut to c.rack, but it worked and it was fair for both sides. Even when you went offline you could be confident that attackers would at least suffer severe losses when they entered your home system.
Now look at EvE... where smalltime PKs are sitting in 'your' NPC station laughing right in your face because you canīt enforce anything without being everywhere all the time. Where huge alliance fleets chase freaking shuttles around the system when these damn scouts shouldn't even have been able to enter the homeworld of a huge enemy alliance in the first place.

Quote:
And I'm not talking out of my ass here either. I play a game with territory control. A game where the bases have a limited window of vulnerability every day. A game where the bases have level limits preventing higher level players from steamrolling low level bases, something which Eve does not. With automated defenses and bases that are entirely capable of holding off the random attack.


Whatever game it is youīre playing... itīs not EvE. And in the end itīs still only a question of gamedesign. It can be done and hopefully it will be done because otherwise the largest part of the universe will stay the way it is: uninhabited with a few exceptions.

As a last note Iīd still like to read about what you'd suggest to provide that "middle ground" you mentioned earlier and what exactly must be done to make 0.0 more attractive.


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