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Onstra Deluth
Posted - 2007.04.26 01:15:00 - [1]
 

Hey, im a big fan of the high sec pewpew, but recently a talented friend of mine got his suicide bombing account banned for "griefing".

Where is the line? If i suicide the same hauler 4 times a day in jita, with the intention of making a profit off the kill every time, am i at risk of being punished for what i see as a perfectly legitimate source of income?
Thanks for the feedback.

jimmyjam
Gallente
Sinner Among Saints
Exquisite Malevolence
Posted - 2007.04.26 01:25:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Onstra Deluth
Hey, im a big fan of the high sec pewpew, but recently a talented friend of mine got his suicide bombing account banned for "griefing".

Where is the line? If i suicide the same hauler 4 times a day in jita, with the intention of making a profit off the kill every time, am i at risk of being punished for what i see as a perfectly legitimate source of income?
Thanks for the feedback.

If all you do is kill the same day old noob all day it might be griefing.I would ask a gm what the line is just to make sure.



Stakhanov
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2007.04.26 01:41:00 - [3]
 

It might have to do with alt recycling. You're not allowed to keep creating and deleting suicide bombing alts to circumvent the sec status restriction.

If you can find a justification , it's not griefing.

Voogru
Gallente
Massive Damage
We Are John Galt
Posted - 2007.04.26 01:53:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: voogru on 26/04/2007 01:49:03
Originally by: Onstra Deluth
Hey, im a big fan of the high sec pewpew, but recently a talented friend of mine got his suicide bombing account banned for "griefing".

Where is the line? If i suicide the same hauler 4 times a day in jita, with the intention of making a profit off the kill every time, am i at risk of being punished for what i see as a perfectly legitimate source of income?
Thanks for the feedback.


Somehow I suspect he was recycling alts, after all he has an acount DEDICATED to suicide ganking.

Miz Cenuij
Caldari
Posted - 2007.04.26 07:43:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Miz Cenuij on 26/04/2007 07:39:40


This is a good and valid question.

After suiciding 7 bombergeddons per night over a week, I too was placed ona final warning for "griefing" despite a differant GM having told me it was OK a week earlier.

I would love to return to mass murder in Jita, but some clarification on the subject is required, lest more people lose thier accounts.

NB: I was not recycling characters, all of the attacks were made on my main char.

Kher'Aleer
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.04.26 08:47:00 - [6]
 

It's really great to hear that different GM's have different rules.
I thought rules were set guidelines for what is allowed or not.
I didn't think they change depending on who you ask.
Thats just stupid.

Onstra Deluth
Posted - 2007.04.26 09:14:00 - [7]
 

I wonder if CCP would be so kind as to clear up this issue? Having received very different feedback from different GMs is more than a little disconcerting, as this is hands down, the most enjoyable line of work ive practiced in Eve.

Ogdru Jahad
Amarr
Timetravel Enterprises
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
Posted - 2007.04.26 09:31:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Miz Cenuij
Edited by: Miz Cenuij on 26/04/2007 07:39:40


This is a good and valid question.

After suiciding 7 bombergeddons per night over a week, I too was placed ona final warning for "griefing" despite a differant GM having told me it was OK a week earlier.

I would love to return to mass murder in Jita, but some clarification on the subject is required, lest more people lose thier accounts.

NB: I was not recycling characters, all of the attacks were made on my main char.


If your not intelligent enought to keep the closed petition so you have proof that GM blahdeblah said it was ok thats your fault.


Gaven Blands
Caldari
Cosmic Fusion
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2007.04.26 10:19:00 - [9]
 

There's no point arguing with GMs.

As I am not allowed to verbatim what they say, I can't even show you how insanely annoying stupid they can be.

But remember this. GMs are Players First, and GMs second.
Read a few threads.
Do players sound like rational people who should be in charge of Eve?

No. They don't.

And that is why GMs suck. Even the senior ones.

My favourite SGM tidbit. Paraphrased of course, all (S)GMs are trained to talk to you like you are worthless scum.




CCP Exploit Problem #1:
Many known exploits are left in the game, and are not removed.

CCP Exploit Problem #2:
Any usage of an exploit to gain an advantage is only punished if the person exploited against notices it, recognises it as an exploit and then petitions a GM.

CCP Exploit Problem #3:
GM's responses to exploitation is to be kept private at all times, thus ensuring that any corruption, inconsistency or failing is kept hidden from the paying public.

CCP Exploit Problem #4:
Any known or new exploit is only ever revealed as an exploit to the person who petitions a GM. All other players must rely on second hand information and popular rumours to determine whether a particular action is an exploit or not.

CCP Exploit Problem #5:
Not knowing it is an exploit is no defence if you use the exploit. You are supposed to keep yourself informed of all exploits. CCP provide no official means of doing this except for petitioning GMs. As the exploit status of an action may change, each player must repetition each day to ensure that what was an exploit yesterday, is still an exploit today, or vice versa.

CCP Exploit Problem #6:
There is no longer any fully accepted reason beyond personal morality to feel as though one should play within the rules of the game as published.

Trinity Faetal
Gallente
Little Garden
Posted - 2007.04.26 11:25:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Miz Cenuij
Edited by: Miz Cenuij on 26/04/2007 07:39:40


This is a good and valid question.

After suiciding 7 bombergeddons per night over a week, I too was placed ona final warning for "griefing" despite a differant GM having told me it was OK a week earlier.

I would love to return to mass murder in Jita, but some clarification on the subject is required, lest more people lose thier accounts.

NB: I was not recycling characters, all of the attacks were made on my main char.


if u need someone to look after your nyx while you're in jita..

<3 call me

Dezz'mond
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2007.04.26 11:48:00 - [11]
 

I didnt think suiciding was illegal, As long as your not using some form of exploit to kill a ship, you should never be able to get banned for it. You kill their ship, in return your ship has to die in high sec space, the only time i remember people getting in **** for it was when they some how managed to get away from a kill with their ship alive.

If a GM tries to ban you for it, just remind them that;

A) Your taking the sec hit for destroying their ship

B) Your ship is being destroyed in the process

C) Its not like they cant do anything at all to defend against it (different ship, sheild / armor tank and yes that works)

lord fenster
Posted - 2007.04.26 11:50:00 - [12]
 

just imo i think suicide bombing is greefing and should carry a punishment hi sec is so called becouse its meant to be safe for players if you have found a way to gank players in hi sec then i would say thats against game mechanics im not saying you should be banned but punished in somw way
flame away

Ginger Magician
Minmatar
OctoberSnow Corp
Posted - 2007.04.26 12:42:00 - [13]
 

The answer to the question posed by this thread is when u become too good at it.

I'm afraid the double standards by which CCP treat pirates and carebears are even more apparent than normal in these cases.
The only way to solve these iussues is to not allow any combat in hi sec at all apart from legitmate empire wars.Even these should be restricted to .8 space and below as well imo.
Non war target player ships in hi sec should not be lockable unless they become flagged to you in some way.Probbaly difficult to code but really the only real solution.




William Hamilton
Caldari
Endless Destruction
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2007.04.26 12:43:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: lord fenster
just imo i think suicide bombing is greefing and should carry a punishment hi sec is so called becouse its meant to be safe for players if you have found a way to gank players in hi sec then i would say thats against game mechanics im not saying you should be banned but punished in somw way
flame away


They are punished, they get a sec status hit.

Hi-sec isn't supposed to be totaly safe, just safer than the rest of EvE

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2007.04.26 12:46:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Dezz'mond
I didnt think suiciding was illegal, As long as your not using some form of exploit to kill a ship, you should never be able to get banned for it. You kill their ship, in return your ship has to die in high sec space, the only time i remember people getting in **** for it was when they some how managed to get away from a kill with their ship alive.

If a GM tries to ban you for it, just remind them that;

A) Your taking the sec hit for destroying their ship

B) Your ship is being destroyed in the process

C) Its not like they cant do anything at all to defend against it (different ship, sheild / armor tank and yes that works)

*nod* sometimes you have to remind them of their own policies, which can be found on the eve-online website. The relevant policy and definitions of terms in this case are here:
Policy (see 7g)
Definition of the term griefing that GMs are supposed to use.

Let's just say the recruitment standards could probably do with a little work. If you're ever faced with a situation where you KNOW a GM is wrong, such as yours Miz Cenuji, you have the right to request intervention by a senior GM. The GMs are all human and make mistakes, the senior gms deal with uncharted territory and grey areas better and bring things to the attention of the devs if needed.

NWO Scarface
No Way Out
Posted - 2007.04.26 12:50:00 - [16]
 

lol

Rabbitual Ferrier
Posted - 2007.04.26 13:27:00 - [17]
 

Presumably it is griefing/exploiting if you are using alts to suicide and collecting with your primary.

Speed Devil
Caldari
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.04.26 13:39:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Ginger Magician
The answer to the question posed by this thread is when u become too good at it.

I'm afraid the double standards by which CCP treat pirates and carebears are even more apparent than normal in these cases.
The only way to solve these iussues is to not allow any combat in hi sec at all apart from legitmate empire wars.Even these should be restricted to .8 space and below as well imo.
Non war target player ships in hi sec should not be lockable unless they become flagged to you in some way.Probbaly difficult to code but really the only real solution.




hmmm

did someone suicide on ur althauler? ugh

DarkElf
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.04.26 15:27:00 - [19]
 

It's a fine line tbh. Not quite sure where the line is drawn. personally i would say if you repeatable do it to very young player with very little chance of making any real money then that falls under the lines of griefing.

I would say imo it's pretty lame anyway to make a living out of this but i would like to see a day where there are no rules at all around this, that would however put many new players off the game which i guess is a bad thing.


DE



Agent Li
Caldari
CCCP INC
Posted - 2007.04.26 15:33:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: DarkElf
It's a fine line tbh. Not quite sure where the line is drawn. personally i would say if you repeatable do it to very young player with very little chance of making any real money then that falls under the lines of griefing.

I would say imo it's pretty lame anyway to make a living out of this but i would like to see a day where there are no rules at all around this, that would however put many new players off the game which i guess is a bad thing.


DE





I'm more in favor of less rules, and I'm mostly carebearing around.

Let's put it this way. DarkElf the other night thought half-seriously about blowing me up in my Crane.

There I was, hauling all alone (but not AFK) in low sec, ignoring the presence of armed ships, and doing this all without escort...

Well, if I get blown up (even in high sec, there are bad guys, and wardecs), I knew the flight was dangerous when I took it.

Especially since I went back and forth and back and forth and back and forth hauling.

I have no right to expect the route to be safe, even in high sec. In high sec, all I can expect is that CONCORD will gank the person who blew me up.

If I get blown up again by the same person, it's probably because I went back to the same route, in the same ship, doing the same thing, over and over again.

Which is the definition of stupidity - doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result.

They give ships weapons for a reason.

I am rather surprised that DarkElf didn't pod me - maybe he was feeling generous that night. But I can't count on generosity to protect me. And it's pointless to argue that this or that should be nerfed, or this or that is griefing.

To me, if I'm in a hauler anywhere, and I get podded, it was my own fault for flying alone in a hauler.

Not the fault of game mechanics.

DarkElf
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.04.26 15:42:00 - [21]
 

hehehe i only had 1 point and had another guy with me with 1 point also and wasn't fast enough to bump you so didn't bother. we had a third guy on his way to the gate with 2 points when you warped off Evil or Very Mad but it's all good fun Very Happy


DE



Agent Li
Caldari
CCCP INC
Posted - 2007.04.26 15:43:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: DarkElf
hehehe i only had 1 point and had another guy with me with 1 point also and wasn't fast enough to bump you so didn't bother. we had a third guy on his way to the gate with 2 points when you warped off Evil or Very Mad but it's all good fun Very Happy


DE





And THAT is what the game is all about... Shocked

Agent Li
Caldari
CCCP INC
Posted - 2007.04.26 15:49:00 - [23]
 

You know, if it weren't for people like Dark Elf and Tiller, low sec would be completely and utterly boring.

As it is, there aren't enough pirates in most low sec systems. There are hardly any SHIPS in most low sec systems most of the time.

Onstra Deluth
Posted - 2007.04.26 19:07:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: lord fenster
just imo i think suicide bombing is greefing and should carry a punishment hi sec is so called becouse its meant to be safe for players if you have found a way to gank players in hi sec then i would say thats against game mechanics im not saying you should be banned but punished in somw way
flame away


You're wrong my lord. High sec was meant to be safer, not safe. I know that to be the intention of the game designers because you are allowed to attack in high sec, and Concord takes ~15 seconds to defend you if you're in a belt in .6 security.

DarkElf
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.04.26 19:13:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: lord fenster
just imo i think suicide bombing is greefing and should carry a punishment hi sec is so called becouse its meant to be safe for players if you have found a way to gank players in hi sec then i would say thats against game mechanics im not saying you should be banned but punished in somw way
flame away



It is called high security space. if it was meant as you are implying then it would be called total security space, or safe space. I fear you have not yet embraced the beauty of eve yet or possibly it is not designed for ur style of play.

oh and just to mention, you say you should be punshed some way? you are, they blow up your ship.


DE



Onstra Deluth
Posted - 2007.04.26 19:29:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: DarkElf
It's a fine line tbh. Not quite sure where the line is drawn. personally i would say if you repeatable do it to very young player with very little chance of making any real money then that falls under the lines of griefing.

I would say imo it's pretty lame anyway to make a living out of this but i would like to see a day where there are no rules at all around this, that would however put many new players off the game which i guess is a bad thing.


DE





DE, from what i gather "if you repeatedly do it to very young player with very little chance of making any real money" is very similar to the official response. Which is absolutely ridiculous. Why should the punishment be dependent on your profit? How much is "real money" to you? or to whatever GM that happens to pick up VictimizedCarebear#623381's petition?

Suicide bombing takes advantage of concentrated stupidity, but how is that different from a profitable trade or a contract scam (both of which are practically endorsed by CCP)? Has anyone been banned from repeatedly scamming the same player?


Petrothian Tong
Gallente
Posted - 2007.04.26 20:24:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Petrothian Tong on 26/04/2007 20:24:28
hmmm possible reasons:

A) he was recycling alts, which CCP do not like, you do the crime, you pay with sec status. recycling alts for the sole purpose of sucide ganking... well you been warned. (this is bannable.)

B) he targeted newbs repeatedly, this is on per putting cans in newb/school systems saying "free stuff" and then blowing them up... this DRIVES newbs away from the game, which nerfs CCP's Wallet, this is bannable if you do it repeatedly and after being warned.


switch you targets alittle, picking on the same guy would paint a bad picture. and yeah, dont go after newbs, they dont have much anyways... sure, easy pickings, but just theres no class in doing it. and it gets on CCP's bad side...



as to the guy above me, the key difference is:

The newb does not chose to be ganked like he pick a contract, contract have warnings to them.

but being ganked, well hes only choice is really stay docked. (remember, hes a newb.)

and docking all the game would make sure the new stay subscribed =P ...


edit: and no, "the dont fly with valuable thing in cargo" doesnt really stick... "concentrated stupidity" is only used to justify the fact you are picking on newbs. (anyway you look at it. you are still picking on newbs) if you do it enough to have a GM visit you. then yeah, you are taking it too far.




Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2007.04.26 23:42:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: DarkElf
It's a fine line tbh.

Based on CCP's current policies, which could do with some more explanation, suicide bombing someone is never in itself an exploit. You do it for profit, and according to CCP's definition of "grief play", this is sufficient. Doing it to a newbie would be grief play since you're clearly not going to make much profit off that.

It all comes down to whether or not the GM in charge believes you have a legitimate motive for the attack. Legitimate motives obviously include politics, either personal and corporate/alliance, monetary profit or just good old fashioned revenge. Any one of those falls under the idea of "profit", of benefit to yourself or your organisation. If you believe a GM has made the wrong decision after you have stated your case by pointing out your motives, you can request escalation to a senior GM, who should recognise that this is just you suiciding ships for profit and is perfectly fine.


Suicide-ganking becomes an exploit only when game mechanics are bypassed. This includes, but is not limited to:
- Bypassing concord somehow and not losing your ship.
- Bypassing the security rating hit by recycling alts when your old ones get too low sec status for empire.

Additionally, suicide-ganking becomes griefing only when it is percieved as harassment. This includes, but is not limited to:
- Suicide-ganking someone for no reason (not collecting loot, etc)
- Killing newbies (this includes can-baiting as well as suiciding)


The fact is that GMs have more information than we do and I would assume that if they say someone was griefing, they were doing something like recycling alts. I would trust their judgement but if you personally are being petitioned and feel the gm is in the wrong, there's a system to deal with that.

Karlemgne
Tides Of War
Posted - 2007.04.27 12:44:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: lord fenster
just imo i think suicide bombing is greefing and should carry a punishment hi sec is so called becouse its meant to be safe for players if you have found a way to gank players in hi sec then i would say thats against game mechanics im not saying you should be banned but punished in somw way
flame away


Wrong. High sec is meant to be "more" safe, not perfectly safe. There are supposed to be wars, and suicide gankers, ore thiefs, and the like.

-Karl

DarkElf
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.04.27 13:42:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Onstra Deluth
Originally by: DarkElf
It's a fine line tbh. Not quite sure where the line is drawn. personally i would say if you repeatable do it to very young player with very little chance of making any real money then that falls under the lines of griefing.

I would say imo it's pretty lame anyway to make a living out of this but i would like to see a day where there are no rules at all around this, that would however put many new players off the game which i guess is a bad thing.


DE





DE, from what i gather "if you repeatedly do it to very young player with very little chance of making any real money" is very similar to the official response. Which is absolutely ridiculous. Why should the punishment be dependent on your profit? How much is "real money" to you? or to whatever GM that happens to pick up VictimizedCarebear#623381's petition?

Suicide bombing takes advantage of concentrated stupidity, but how is that different from a profitable trade or a contract scam (both of which are practically endorsed by CCP)? Has anyone been banned from repeatedly scamming the same player?




But ccp have to make this against the rules or many rather pathetic ppl would leave the game. I would like to see no rules at all tbh which imo is what eve is all about but ccp has to protect their new members who haven't fallen in love with the brutal world we reside in. they have to protect their wallets.


DE




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