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Lynae
Caldari
Cold Steel Alliance
Posted - 2007.04.20 11:43:00 - [31]
 

I hope you will get your ISK back.

It was clearly a (very human) mistake, and anybody with even a little bit of honor or even common sense would give you the ISK back.

Remember: Behind every character is another human. Just because it is "on teh intarwebz", it doesnt mean that you should do everything. PvP is fine. Podding is fine. WarDecs for Empire-ganking (Privateers) are fine. These are game elements and we play the game with them and for them.

Scamming, griefing and harrasment are not. There is no point in runing some other players day outside the game, just because he has made any sort of mistake, or because someone thinks he expresses superiority in such a manner.

Celestra Ambrose
Amarr
Posted - 2007.04.20 11:45:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: ry ry
although the OP could be working a 17.6billion scam on CCP.


How?

CCP won't magically create 8.8b for the seller and not remove it from elsewhere first.

Since there's real life monies involved here CCP will reimburse the seller the 8.8b and put the buyers account -8.8b in the red if he's already spent it or filtered it to alts and friends.

Character transfers are a cash-cow for CCP, they won't want to put people off using it by not protecting those who actually pay the 20 euros when they make a mistake.

-8.8b for the buyer is my guess, or possibly a ban if he doesn't do the decent thing and pay up.

BAndOfDevs
Band of Dev's
Posted - 2007.04.20 11:46:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Souvera Corvus
Edited by: Souvera Corvus on 20/04/2007 11:30:56
I realy hope you get it back.

If the guy has a shred of self respect he'll do the decent thing and return the Iskies.



Technicaly the gentalman in question never stole scammed etc.. Anything in this situation.
It can be argued effectivly that the agreed ammount for the account was paid and the transaction ocured legaly.

If the person who sold said account failed to remove assets before the transfer took place that is not the fault of the buyer. It is the fault of the seller. And technicaly speaking is no fault of the buyer.

Now that said.. I agree the buyer in question SHOULD return said isk.. But That is based on a moral standing alone. Not a legal one.

Its like this.. I go buy a car, I pay the guy 1k for the car. The dood signs the car over to me. In the process the seller leaves the 1k on the back seat of the car. I drive away with said vehical.

There is no legal recorse the seller can turn to in this case.. (Bar a civil lawsuit) Witch he would not win.

Cheers

Speed Devil
Caldari
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.04.20 11:50:00 - [34]
 

you lost it because of your own stupidity. ccp should not give back your money since the buyer did nothing wrong.

ry ry
Heroes.
Merciless.
Posted - 2007.04.20 12:01:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: ry ry on 20/04/2007 12:07:15

Originally by: Celestra Ambrose
How?

Basically? by spending it.

**** EDIT: mods, delete below this line if you think it's unsuitable, innit. ****

Suffice to say that although the laundering is going to be relatively complex, it really shouldn't be all that hard. if the cash is spread around and changes hands several times (including some legitimate players entirely unaware of what's going on) who exactly are CCP going to take the cash off?

the original 8.8 billion can eventually be filtered back to the original account over time just spent on timecodes and crap. Or maybe, jsut maybe, a new character.

CCP will have the IPs used to access any given account, the email address associated with that account, payment details for the accounts and a record of *some* of the stuff that account has done. That's about it. Make sure these are all different and you're laughing.

if a 8 GTC retails at 150mil the scam has a real-world value of, what, 88 ($160ish)? worth the price of a character transfer, certainly. not so sure about chancing a ban, but i guess that's the nature of these things.

That's not to say the OP is doing this, just that it's possible.

Talkie Toaster
Amarr
Incoherent Inc
Otaku Invasion
Posted - 2007.04.20 12:04:00 - [36]
 

i have to say it sucks hard that it happened. but i dont see what the buyer has done wrong apart from not give your stuff back. he gave it all to you as per the rules. you had it all. he didnt scam, he didny cheat and he didnt lie. all he has done is taken the goodies left on the account that you sold him. lucky for him and sadly for you, the goodies on the acct were the ones you just got for the char.

sucks hard but i dont quite see how its a petitionable issue.

Xtreem
Gallente
The Collective
White Noise.
Posted - 2007.04.20 12:06:00 - [37]
 

weather its a ccp thing or not, its what i hope anyone would do, as its not bein g unfair with isk, its being unfair with true hard work (on the char)

hell someone done a direct trade with me once put in his item clicked accept before i put my money in, so i accepted, then opened convo, sent him the isk and told him to be more carefull, scams are scams but this was a char deal, and they should be exclded in whole, ccp endorsed or not.

TerrorWOLF
PURE Legion
Pure.
Posted - 2007.04.20 12:12:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: BAndOfDevs
Originally by: Souvera Corvus
Edited by: Souvera Corvus on 20/04/2007 11:30:56
I realy hope you get it back.

If the guy has a shred of self respect he'll do the decent thing and return the Iskies.



Technicaly the gentalman in question never stole scammed etc.. Anything in this situation.
It can be argued effectivly that the agreed ammount for the account was paid and the transaction ocured legaly.

If the person who sold said account failed to remove assets before the transfer took place that is not the fault of the buyer. It is the fault of the seller. And technicaly speaking is no fault of the buyer.

Now that said.. I agree the buyer in question SHOULD return said isk.. But That is based on a moral standing alone. Not a legal one.

Its like this.. I go buy a car, I pay the guy 1k for the car. The dood signs the car over to me. In the process the seller leaves the 1k on the back seat of the car. I drive away with said vehical.

There is no legal recorse the seller can turn to in this case.. (Bar a civil lawsuit) Witch he would not win.

Cheers


Or i just call the police and say that a person driveng the car has stolen 1k from me.

Mox Trident
Minmatar
Hellcratik INC.
Posted - 2007.04.20 12:13:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: ry ry
Edited by: ry ry on 20/04/2007 11:59:48
Edited by: ry ry on 20/04/2007 11:59:08
Originally by: Celestra Ambrose
How?

Basically? by spending it.

It's fairly obvious but i'd rather not explain exactly how the process could work on a public forum. Suffice to say that although the laundering is going to be relatively complex, it's really not that hard. if the cash is spread around and changes hands half several times (including some legitimate players entirely unaware of what's going on) who exactly are CCP going to take the cash off?

CCP will have the IPs used to access any given account, the email address associated with that account, payment details for the accounts and a record of *some* of the stuff that account has done. That's about it. Make sure these are all different and you're laughing.

if a 8 GTC retails at 150mil the scam has a real-world value of, what, 88 ($160ish)? worth the price of a character transfer.

That's not to say the OP is doing this, just that it's possible.


The GM's don't even bother seeing where the ISK went, they simply make the charaters bank balance -8.8b. Thats the way they've always done it, it makes no sense wasting time trying to trace all the isk when they can simply debit it all from the source character (effectively ruining said character).

CCP have done it plenty of times before. I remember reading about a well-known pirate from the m0o days having his account put 1 billion in the red for recieving duped ISK and spending it all on expensive ships, and that was when 1 billion was a LOT of isk. He came begging to the forums for donations to get his balance back in the black Laughing

ry ry
Heroes.
Merciless.
Posted - 2007.04.20 12:17:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: ry ry on 20/04/2007 12:49:22

Originally by: Mox Trident
The GM's don't even bother seeing where the ISK went, they simply make the charaters bank balance -8.8b. Thats the way they've always done it, it makes no sense wasting time trying to trace all the isk when they can simply debit it all from the source character (effectively ruining said character).

so the OP would be left with 17.6 billion ISK, and a character worth 8.8 billion with a -8.8 billion balance. That equates to 8.8bil pure profit and the original character, the cost of laundering notwithstanding.

that's assuming he doesn't just ditch the original character and give all 17.6 to his new main, since he'd decided to sell the old character in the 1st place.

Hell, you could even sell the original character again, this time to some poor unsuspecting innocent, for another few billion and just let whichever account it was sold from get banned for selling a character with a balance of -8.8 billion ISK. I'm sure there would be enough time to get rid of the money before the ban hammer came down.

random example: spend it on a ship. park it at a safe and eject. probe and steal it with an alt at a later date. to all intents and purposes, that ship could have been legitimately stolen within the game mechanics.

I've not tried any of this, i'm far too busy/honest IRL to feck about defrauding CCP - i play eve for fun in my spare time, but it's all fairly straight forwards and the huge petition backlog sat on the GMs would only make it easier, if slightly slower.

TerrorWOLF
PURE Legion
Pure.
Posted - 2007.04.20 12:34:00 - [41]
 

Well i hope the person returns the isk without intervention of ccp. It's only a game, but there is something called good sportsmanship in games and by the look if it EVE has lost this in the community and its draging EVE down.

There was a time where there where only few scemer/"grevers", it was funny and exiting and thee names are still know. But now that more then half the people just trying it and looking for new ways to do it. It's gating to the point where EVE is becoming boring and point less.


Velsharoon
Gallente
Arcane Velshologies
Posted - 2007.04.20 12:44:00 - [42]
 

Goodluck mate. If ccp dont give it back there is something wrong :/

SasRipper
H A V O C
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2007.04.20 12:55:00 - [43]
 

GIVE IT BACK CCP!

If not contact sas asset recovery it involes baseball bats & knee caps

Lex Kram
Posted - 2007.04.20 13:00:00 - [44]
 

Actually there is a legal basis for the resolution of this. The 8.8 billion isk belongs to the op. Making a mistake does not relinquish ownership of the isk and if the recipient does not return the isk then that is theft.

Monica Foulkes
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.04.20 13:00:00 - [45]
 

I would be surprised if you got a single ISK returned tbh.

Bud Wieser
Posted - 2007.04.20 13:27:00 - [46]
 

im just inserting the stereotypical reply now from ****s on these forums.

/on

OMG you suckorz.. Heres comes the WAHHHHbulence..you deserved cos your such ano0b"

/off

Personally, im sorry m8, obviously the other guy is a ****.

Bournie
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.04.20 13:37:00 - [47]
 

Sorry for your loss m8. Hopefully the the person who received the isk has at least an ounce of decency and will return it Sad

Bunds
L D U
Posted - 2007.04.20 14:01:00 - [48]
 

hope u get the iskies back.

fair mistake to make.Wink

PDoggy
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2007.04.20 14:02:00 - [49]
 

This sucks very, very much, but it isn't a scam. No offense, but it is sheer absentmindedness (I wouldn't be so mean as to say stupidity), and you shouldn't really get the ISK back.

Thesas
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2007.04.20 14:14:00 - [50]
 

It was a mistake up to a point.

When the buyer realized the transaction was done in error then blocked communication with the seller, it became a scam.

To block communication clearly indicates the buyer is aware of the mistake, yet chooses to take both the item and funds. A mistake in a transaction does not validate one party keeping both funds and item. You can argue semantics but the fact remains it has become a matter of non payment for an item.


The buyer will lose in this attempt.

Ashaz
Mindstar Technology
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2007.04.20 14:15:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Hazkr Rwzk
yer the buyer did nothing wrong. he sent you the agreed price and items, and you sent it back. if it was me i would of given the isk back but some people arent so nice. the guy got a free carrier pilot and ccp shouldnt refund the 8 bill due to the buyer doing nothing wrong.


When are these kids going to learn that right and wrong is not dictated by what is and isn't listed in a rulebook? It is also that stuff your mom as supposed to teach you as a child.
It's called Morals.
Surprisingly few in this game has any it seems.

Bistot Kid
The First Thing You'll Ever See
Posted - 2007.04.20 14:18:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: BAndOfDevs
Its like this.. I go buy a car, I pay the guy 1k for the car. The dood signs the car over to me. In the process the seller leaves the 1k on the back seat of the car. I drive away with said vehical.There is no legal recorse the seller can turn to in this case.. (Bar a civil lawsuit) Witch he would not win.


I don't know what country you are from, but in the UK this would be covered by the 1968 Theft Act.

If the jury or magistrates are satisfied that you genuinely believe that you have the legal (not moral) right to keep the money, then by s.2(1)(a) of the 1968 Act you are not dishonest.

In your hypothetical example, I don't believe the Jury or magistrates would believe you to be the legal owner of the money, and you'd be guilty of a criminal offence.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2007.04.20 14:28:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: ry ry
since it's technically an out of game arrangement, i suppose they might give your cash back.

i'd imagine whoever bought your character is desperately spending and transferring all the cash he can so they don't take it off him.


If CCP decide that it is in the wrong, he will end at -8.8 billion.

They take the isk even if that put the character at negative isk.

And that is not nice, as he can't even put intem on sale (require isk for the sales tax), refine loot and so on.

Will have a fun life for a period Twisted Evil.

Cheyenne Shadowborn
Caldari
Noob Much Inc.
Posted - 2007.04.20 14:46:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: ProtectoriesFormerOwner
There for I announce myself as the "Biggest Idiot of Eve History" Laughing


Ouch. I don't say this very often but yeah, that actually sucks big time. Sorry man ugh

Pinhan
Gallente
Mezzanine Industries
Posted - 2007.04.20 14:52:00 - [55]
 

Very HappyI don't know on what those who said it is legally okay bases their arguments but they are wrong. Please bring back the 1k$ you find on the back seat of a car next time it happens to you, for that is not and will never be rightfully and legally yours unless the agreement included '1k $ on the left back seat'. I don't know of the Theft Act of UK and how this works in USA, but many continental European civil codes include the good faith article, which seeks for honesty in every transaction. Yes, honesty, and noticing a mistake and then blocking communication is not honest at all, therefore it's a theft, not a mistake anymore. I'm sure UK and USA laws have the same logic. In this case, the ISK should be returned to the OP, legally Wink.

Valrandir
Gallente
Distant Thunder
Perihelion Alliance
Posted - 2007.04.20 14:52:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: ProtectoriesFormerOwner
I don't know if to laugh or cry. I cried mostly yesterday :)

Last evening I finally decided to sell my maxed out carrier pilot.
I've had my toon since the start of EvE 2003. So it was with
a tear in my eye that I sold my toon Protectories to a polite guy
who offered me 8.8 billion and a T2 fitted Raven.

I was very tired last night. The guy traded me the raven and
gave me the money. I then transfered the T2 fitted raven to my
main character. I confirmed the other guys account name,
logged on to the EvE site, payed 20 euros and transfered the
character to him.

End of story I thought. Just that I 10 minutes later realize
that the money the guy paid me (8.8 billion) was sent to my charater
that i sold Very Happy. I totally forget to forward the money to my
main character.

After I realized what I've done I tried to contact the new owner
of my old character. But he blocked all my attempts. He didn't even
say a word in local when I nicely tried to talk to him. Instead
I found him outside a station in my old Thanatos playing with
some fighters.

I've sent a petition to CCP, but I doubt they will do anything.
If they do, It probably have gone 3-4 weeks and by that time
I'm sure the new owner spent all the 8.8 billion on gear for
his new toon Crying or Very sad

There for I announce myself as the "Biggest Idiot of Eve History" Laughing
selling a 2003 maxed out carrier pilot including a carrier and fighters
for 0 isk. I even paid 20 euros for the transfer Rolling Eyes



That is quite a violent mistake, you must have been very sad.

As other have said I think you will be reimbursed, and the money would be transfered from the sold character to you main even if it mean a red negative wallet.

Na'Kunni
Amarr
Invicta.
Posted - 2007.04.20 14:59:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: ry ry
since it's technically an out of game arrangement, i suppose they might give your cash back.

i'd imagine whoever bought your character is desperately spending and transferring all the cash he can so they don't take it off him.


They still take you cash off you even if you don't have it, you get a debt with the market, so if they did decide to take his money of him, an he has around 100mil isk left, then he will go into a -8.7bil debt with the market an basically his character will be unable to buy anything, until he has recoverd the money.

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2007.04.20 15:05:00 - [58]
 

All sympathies to the OP, what a horrid mistake to have made. Sad

That said, I see no reason why folks are down on the buyer.

Buyer did everything he said he would. There's no hint here that he came to the transaction with a criminal mind. He just completed the transaction and found unexpected assets on the purchased character.

Does he know it was a mistake? Sure. Is he being rude in refusing to discuss the mistake with the OP? Maybe, a little. But does he have any duty or obligation to fix the mistake? I don't see it.

All the arguments from morality and out-of-game law are out the window here. This is a game, people, a game where piracy (one of the most brutal and sordid crimes known to humanity) is enshrined as a high art. The game is about accumulating virtual stuff, by hook or by crook or by virtual ransom and murder, and real world morality simply don't enter into it.

Sure, the buyer here could be a nice guy, and purchase a stunning in-game reputation for same by forking over the billions of ISK. But how many people do you know would pay eight billion ISK for the sole benefit of being known as a prince among men?

I will be very surprised if CCP does anything except express deepest sympathies for a painful loss.

ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
Posted - 2007.04.20 15:06:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: BAndOfDevs
Its like this.. I go buy a car, I pay the guy 1k for the car. The dood signs the car over to me. In the process the seller leaves the 1k on the back seat of the car. I drive away with said vehical.

There is no legal recorse the seller can turn to in this case.. (Bar a civil lawsuit) Witch he would not win.
That's hardly how it works.
Having something in your car, be it money or a chewing gum doesn't make it yours.
In the beautiful real world, you have to turn it over to the police and take finder's fee if the owner claims it. If it's not claimed, it's yours and you have to declare it to get taxed too! Wink

If you don't do that,the real owner can sue you and then you have to prove it's rightfuly yours.

So don't compare RL to eve (as always) hehe

To the op, I hope he steps up and gives it back. ugh

Trollin
Posted - 2007.04.20 15:14:00 - [60]
 

you should post the main that bought him at least, cos i dont think you are going to get anything back.

CCP doesnt refund stupidity, or I would have at least 2b in ships and implants refunded to me.


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