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Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2007.04.07 21:54:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: AKULA UrQuan
I see the muppet population is going strong in this thread.

Oh and dalman is right btw. Just fyi.... Razz


No, he's really not. A anti-BS setup for use in a wolfpack will have a very different choice of midslot modules than one designed to kill other frigates, across the gang. And that "across the gang" is important. Indeed, the choice of SHIP at the frigate level in large part depends what you're going after.

Zirth
Caldari
Domination Heavy Industries
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2007.04.07 22:15:00 - [62]
 

I feel nos should be nerfed, but only by a tiny bit. I honestly don't feel they're that overpowered.

You see, full nos equals no damage. Unless of course, you're a drone-boat. There's only few 50% dmg drone bonus ships out there, and half of them like the Myrmidon, only have enough drone bay for 1 wave of heavy drones.

Scenario: You web a drone, kill it, go for another while having all 4 remaining ones locked, you just decreased the guy's damage to 80%, probably 60% as he surely docks the dying one, and possibly down to 0% as he's afraid you'll just switch weapons to his other precious million-costing paper-thin drones.

The Domi and Ishtar are a bit better against this with increased drone-bay. That's where their power is, but you can still 1-hit heavies after you web em in a BS, quickly killing off not just the first wave, but also second wave of drones.

You must also realize that cap boosters are extremely popular on pvp ships. More popular than nos. I've done loads of fighting, and everytime I used nos in combination with a drone-boat, my drones got killed off, or I had to scoop em up half of the time to avoid them getting locked and killed. My nosferatu supposedly would take care of the opponents damage and tank, but it doesn't.

Med cap boosters alone, let alone heavy, give 37 cap per second, 6 med nos take 36 cap a second. With a starting capacitor of a few thousand, and 1-6 nos of his own, his cap will hold to take down your drones or ship.

It's also not just per-second values that count, the fact is that a cap 800 adds 800 capacitor, enough to inject the cap, and put on 2 reppers and a whole bunch more, leaving little capacitor for the enemy to nos, which he relies on for his tank.

There's also the fact that more than half of EVE's pilots use weapons that require no capacitor.

All in all, nosferatu should be nerfed, but it really isn't that bad.

It cripples damage, isn't affective against passive tanks, isn't affective against projectile/missile using ships, isn't affective against long range ships, or those that dampen or ECM you to the point of losing your lock and nos, isn't affective against cap boosters. Not saying nos is crap, it's damn nice in situations, but I'm saying it has plenty of counters, and isn't as overpowered as some say.

Hayward Cyprus
Caldari
Elite Force
Posted - 2007.04.07 22:32:00 - [63]
 

Hankmurphy wrote:
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ HankMurphy on 07/04/2007 20:44:26
NOS does need looked at. BUT, not for the reasons most ppl think.

-NOS is a last line of defense for a battleship vs a frigate hull. We all know this. This shouldn't change.
-NOS is also instrumental for support vs capital ships, this also shouldn't change.
-Finally, one or two slots devoted to NOS can give you that extra life in combat in a gazillion different circumstances (from keeping weapons firing, to a couple extra rep fires, etc..). Again, this should not change.

So, what should change? The ability to fit a full/half rack of nos, on ships not specialized for it, without any form of drawback.

Now dont go gettin yer panties all in a bunch! Fact is there are ships that specialize in NOS, and these ships should be able to fit their full/half rack of NOS to full effect. But there is no reason to think that a ship should be able to fit a full rack of NOS just because it has a large drone bay. Yes i am talking specifically about the domi, ishtar and (not so much but i'll include it) the myrmidon. You add that ability to the dps available from just the drone bay and all you need is a dual rep and cap injector to make you more than a force to be reckoned with.

I know they aren't invincible. I've killed plenty of em to prove that :) But the point still remains there is no reason nos shouldn't face a stacking penalty like everything else in the friggin game (seems to be the current motion). Alot of popular setups weren't intended when drone ships were designed (often designers dont realize what they've created till they put the ships in our hands!), but it was the effect and has never been looked at since conception....

/flame away, but you know i'm right Wink

edit to add: i almost forgot till i saw above poster... yes, hardpoints for nos would also be an acceptable solution
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Yeah you are right :-). Stacking Nerf on NOS would seem like the most viable solution to me also.


Tunajuice wrote:
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Edited by: Tunajuice on 07/04/2007 20:58:28
Edited by: Tunajuice on 07/04/2007 20:55:40
How many posts do we have saying use light drones?

Tech 2 light drones CAN NOT DAMAGE A WELL FITTED FRIG OR SIMILAR ORBITING YOU AT MAX SPEED. So unless we get another speed nerf, or tech2 light drones get a ~ 100% speed and tracking increase.. light drones do NOTHING against frigs and such.


And no, mounting frig sized guns does not work either. TBH if you want to remove or limit large nos, I would like to see web range increased to 25km.. that would solve the problem just fine as well, but I think the intys won't be too thrilled.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Bullcrap, no frig (unless maybe a faction fitted frig + rigs) can go fast enough to avoid light drones. Not even most interceptors can do it.


All in all, the only problem I see with nos is putting multiple nos on one ship ---> see stacking penalty. If you split them up on several ships, fine. Small ships should be drained very quickly imho, so they cannot hold BS forever (yes it is their only means of defence apart from drones, drones just take a bit longer to do the job). If it should be 2 or 3 or 4 cycles, can be argued. Any Frig gang will still be able to tackle a BS (and possibly kill) which is fine, too many hunters are the rabits death (or something like that).

Hayward Cyprus (oh and yeah, my quote function doesn't work:P)

VanNostrum
Posted - 2007.04.07 22:35:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Zirth
I feel nos should be nerfed, but only by a tiny bit. I honestly don't feel they're that overpowered.

You see, full nos equals no damage. Unless of course, you're a drone-boat. There's only few 50% dmg drone bonus ships out there, and half of them like the Myrmidon, only have enough drone bay for 1 wave of heavy drones.

Scenario: You web a drone, kill it, go for another while having all 4 remaining ones locked, you just decreased the guy's damage to 80%, probably 60% as he surely docks the dying one, and possibly down to 0% as he's afraid you'll just switch weapons to his other precious million-costing paper-thin drones.

The Domi and Ishtar are a bit better against this with increased drone-bay. That's where their power is, but you can still 1-hit heavies after you web em in a BS, quickly killing off not just the first wave, but also second wave of drones.

You must also realize that cap boosters are extremely popular on pvp ships. More popular than nos. I've done loads of fighting, and everytime I used nos in combination with a drone-boat, my drones got killed off, or I had to scoop em up half of the time to avoid them getting locked and killed. My nosferatu supposedly would take care of the opponents damage and tank, but it doesn't.

Med cap boosters alone, let alone heavy, give 37 cap per second, 6 med nos take 36 cap a second. With a starting capacitor of a few thousand, and 1-6 nos of his own, his cap will hold to take down your drones or ship.

It's also not just per-second values that count, the fact is that a cap 800 adds 800 capacitor, enough to inject the cap, and put on 2 reppers and a whole bunch more, leaving little capacitor for the enemy to nos, which he relies on for his tank.

There's also the fact that more than half of EVE's pilots use weapons that require no capacitor.

All in all, nosferatu should be nerfed, but it really isn't that bad.

It cripples damage, isn't affective against passive tanks, isn't affective against projectile/missile using ships, isn't affective against long range ships, or those that dampen or ECM you to the point of losing your lock and nos, isn't affective against cap boosters. Not saying nos is crap, it's damn nice in situations, but I'm saying it has plenty of counters, and isn't as overpowered as some say.


I agree with most of what you say, but we have to accept the fact that NOS is what makes an entire race, Amarr, underpowered. This race ships already have cap problems due to lasers and throw in 1-2 nos and they're done, unable to do any damage or repair. Amarr has some ships with 1-2 med slots only, 3 on a BS, hardly enough to fit in a mwd/ab, web,scram, and where do you fit the injector? Sure injector can be put in many other ships non-amarr, but one module, the nosferatu, making an entire race useless is over the line.
All races enjoy variety of rigs to increase their dps/tanking power/speed etc,while amarr still use these extra slots to makeup for their ridiculously high cap usage (ccc). It's just that there is a counter for everything in game except NOS. BS have 6-8 high slots and half of them can be used for NOS while doing some DPS, but you can only use 1 cap injector in med, and think of the cargo space u have for those cap batteries. Even harder for amarr due to lowest med slots.

Draec Sjet
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2007.04.07 23:32:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Draec Sjet on 07/04/2007 23:31:55
so what if a battleship can knock out one inty with NOS? on average, most battleship setups will have 1 or 2 NOS say, which takes out say 2 interceptors. but interceptors can already orbit without being hit by any battleship gun, so why do you want to get rid of the one factor battleships still have to combat that? eve warfare is created so that there's good points and bad points about almost every tactical situation. yes, interceptors are almost invulnerable whilst orbiting, but we can take your cap which you need to sustain that orbitting speed. but interceptor pilots can combat that simply by flying outside NOS range and then back in. when do intie pliots go off solo? they're a team ship; safety in numbers. NOS may be a problem, but warfare isn't ideal, and you should develop tactics and ideas to combat each scenario rather than whine to get it changed.

it's a bit like a big stong guy fighing a small quick guy. he will be able to hit you, you just have to move out of the way when he goes for you and come back in after, and the odds of your success would be better with more guys to help you.

what do you mean ther eis no counter to NOS? of course there is; caldari and minmatar need no cap to fire. also i have fitted injectors on amarr battleships and found them to be very useful. yes, amarr are the cap race, but that doesn't mean we shoud have NOS proof caps. the armageddon for example, has terrible cap, but whilst other people are whining about it, other people are coming up with fits for it with cap injectors that work really well if not only for a shorter time. eve is a great game because there are so many options, why are you complaining when you have all mods and equipment you need?

Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente
United Mining And Distribution
Posted - 2007.04.08 00:04:00 - [66]
 

Quote:

what do you mean ther eis no counter to NOS? of course there is; caldari and minmatar need no cap to fire.

Caldari and minmatar are races, not modules to counter nos.

The statement: "nos are a bs's only counter vs frigs" is bull****, and something somebody with poor skills and/or little experience would say. BS counters vs frigs:

  1. Far greater hitpoints

  2. Powerful tank

  3. Can fit more anti-frigate weapons than frigates can fit weapons

  4. Every bs can field multiple waves of warrior II drones, which are highly effective
    against most frigate targets

  5. Greater fitting versatility, thanks to their myriad of slots compared to frigates

  6. Currently (and the most overpowered one) heavy nosferatu. I would be comfortable engaging 4-6 interceptors in a nosdomi without fear.

  7. Least mentioned and widely disregarded: the support ships you should have with you.



Nos (particularly heavy nos) are just too powerful and too good.

Kyguard
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.04.08 00:49:00 - [67]
 

If nos is nerfed, pilgrim and curse "nos dmg" bonus need to be replaced with a nos rate of fire bonus.

But don't forget nos is a double-edged sword, you nerf nos and there are going to be some bs and cmd ship tanks that are going to be nuts to beat.

Vicious Phoenix
Posted - 2007.04.08 01:00:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Kyguard
But don't forget nos is a double-edged sword, you nerf nos and there are going to be some bs and cmd ship tanks that are going to be nuts to beat.

My Sleipnir that takes no cap for guns just tank/speed now doesn't have to deal with nos and has all that cap now totally available to tank. Hmmm, I now approve of the nos nerf. Get rid of it allYARRRR!!

But that argument I actually like. Nerfing nos would create more problems than it would solve. Learn to fit your frigs kids, small/micro cap injectors FTMFW.

Daenethx
Gallente
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.04.08 01:56:00 - [69]
 

damn do all these "nerf nos" threads annoy me.
If you want to take on a battleship with a single frigate GO PLAY ANOTHER GAME. The very idea that something as powerful and costly can't take down a single paper light frig is just absurd.
Heck all the truly large ships on star wars had built in automatic anti-frig turrets =]
If you give us those i won't be so ****ed at a nos nerf :D

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2007.04.08 02:06:00 - [70]
 

There is a better solution for all the problems.

Simply keep the Nosfs as they are, and add a module (preferably a low slot one) that gives a ship resistance against nosf drain.

So you can add protection against energy drain as you can do against ECM and Sensor Dampeners. At the cost of damage resistence as you will use slots for it.

We could add rigs for this too.

Additionally I think that adding tracking mechanics or stackign penalties to Nosfs would overnerf them, but there could be a signature radius penalty. So one nosf couldn't completely drain a specific protected Frig, but several could.

These are my two cents.

Wayward Hooligan
The Scope
Posted - 2007.04.08 02:40:00 - [71]
 

How to fix Nos in 1 easy step:

Half or Quarter the amount of cap drained per cycle on Nos. Leave Neuts alone.

Curse/Pilgrim are still great Nos ships and their bonuses becomes even more important.

Neuts still do their job and still have their draw back.

Heavy Nos still kills off frigates cap very quickly.

Basically Nos still works just like it does now but its just not as effective. Hence it stops being the IWIN button that it is in so many situations now.

Dodona
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.04.08 02:40:00 - [72]
 

How many of you use capacitor batteries? Probably few to none. Making them invulnerable to Nos could certainly change this.

1. Make the energy contained within batteries impossible to drain.
2. Make batteries a little bit easier to fit. Maybe. Frigates can always opt for the micro-sized, which should be enough for them to either keep firing or run away -- I don't think they'd be able to run both a MWD and a warp disruptor.
3. Make them low-slot modules. The Amarr have a dearth of low slots; we can kill two birds with one stone here.

Pilots would have the ability to keep themselves somewhat safe from Nos, but not without trade-offs. Batteries take up a lot of powergrid and CPU; tank setups might have to lose their dual-rep, ships that usually fit Nos just because they could might want to re-consider.





Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2007.04.08 04:10:00 - [73]
 

Just fyi, about "thousands of dps".

A dominix with a full t2 tank, with all 7 slots dedicated to tackling, 2 rep amount rigs and 1 rep cycle reduction rig, Repair Systems lvl5 and all compensations at 4 can tank 945 dps.

That's less than thousand - and it's one of the meanest tanks in the game. Other BS use some lows for dmg mods etc, so their tanks are not nearly as good.

Remember, this is fully rigged, most people don't fly fully rigged.

And as for nanoships comment, would you like a 1v1 with my bs5/di5 nosdomi or my 9m gunnery maelstrom ? :o

AKULA UrQuan
Caldari
Druuge Crimson Corporation
Posted - 2007.04.08 05:22:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Maya Rkell
No, he's really not. A anti-BS setup for use in a wolfpack will have a very different choice of midslot modules than one designed to kill other frigates, across the gang. And that "across the gang" is important. Indeed, the choice of SHIP at the frigate level in large part depends what you're going after.


Well the whole point of a single nos is shut down some snot tackleing frig and warp before the rest of his blob shows up. Not like the +10 cap/s the best named nos gives will matter that much in a setup that eats 90+ cap/s when full on.

At least in a crow I have the option of killing the entire frig blob solo if I fly right. Then again the quality of my oppenets has been rather depressing as of late so that maynot be much of a point.

Father Weebles
Celestial Refraction
Posted - 2007.04.08 05:27:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Father Weebles on 08/04/2007 05:36:03
edit

Corsair Thunder
Grumpy Old Farts
Gruntfuttocks
Posted - 2007.04.08 09:36:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Horza Otho
Edited by: Horza Otho on 07/04/2007 20:42:28
Give ships utility slots, just like turret+missile slots.

Make nos take utility slots.

Overuseage of nos problem solved.

Now, was that hard?


Best idea in this thread, if you wish to do anything to NOS at all.

Zirth
Caldari
Domination Heavy Industries
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2007.04.08 10:48:00 - [77]
 

Utility slots limit versatility. if I see a myrmidon, I know I won't be facing missiles, but that's fine. But now if I see a myrmidon, I also know they aren't packing 6 nos, go at em with my cap-injectorless ship, because I know they don't have the utility/nos slots for much nos.

Don't like that so much.

And I agree how Amarr really gets blown by nos, but I'm still not sure wether that's because nos is insanely overpowered (should get a slight nerf, nothing big), or because amarr just get crap ships in general apart from a few, which needs to be fixed more than nos.

Laboratus
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.04.08 11:12:00 - [78]
 

This topic has been done to the death in the past.
Even here there are no good arguments for a nerf.
The basic rule of "if you want your cap to hold, fit an cap booster" still holds here.
And before we get 20km smart bombs, ECM bursts or super heavy assault launchers that lob light missiles with a rof of <1 it still is the only defence for a bs vs frigs.
Drones are laughable against fast ships. They just get slaughtered on the way in.

Hugoo Thraxxer
Posted - 2007.04.08 12:23:00 - [79]
 

"I got überskillz in pvp and still my brand new, pimped up L33t-Ibis canīt kill this Nyx! Itīs just unfair and I want CCP to fix it!"

"Nerf (insert module/technique/ship that humiliated you and killed you just recently) because itīs just unfair and I want CCP to fix this!!1one!eleven"

No need for a Nos-nerf. Move along. Keep mining.


welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2007.04.08 13:16:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
...My warriors II reach 9200 m/s, should be around 7500 m/s with just one (tested with an arbitrator to be an inty hunter)...


Thats not the problem though, at those speeds with their mwd on the drones don't track properly and don't attack properly either.

If the inty is orbitting at 5.5km/s+ drones are usually ineffective.

Taurevanime
Posted - 2007.04.08 13:29:00 - [81]
 

I think the best proof of the matter that nos is overpowered is the fact that what you use to counter someone nossing you is nossing them. Unlike with ECM and such which you have ECCM to counter, there is nothing that reduces the effectiveness of a nos. Not your apparent lack of size or your flying speed.

The prevalance of nos modules in setups shows just how far it's gone.

In my own personal oppinion I'd rather see nos gone, the neutralisers are a much more balanced module, they'll reduce enemy cap while not adding to your own. But they should also get something like a signature resolution to make the larger ones less effective against smaller ships.

Bein Glorious
SAKUMA DROP
ANAHEIM ELECTRONICS Alliance
Posted - 2007.04.08 17:00:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Wayward Hooligan
How to fix Nos in 1 easy step:

Half or Quarter the amount of cap drained per cycle on Nos. Leave Neuts alone.

Curse/Pilgrim are still great Nos ships and their bonuses becomes even more important.

Neuts still do their job and still have their draw back.

Heavy Nos still kills off frigates cap very quickly.

Basically Nos still works just like it does now but its just not as effective. Hence it stops being the IWIN button that it is in so many situations now.


I agree with this, really. What it all boils down to is that NOS just drains way too much cap.

Looking at the numbers:
Heavy Nosferatu I: 100 cap every 12 seconds, 8.33 cap/s
A dominix's average cap recharge with ESO V and EM V: 7.6628 cap/s
A dominix's peak cap recharge with ESO V and EM V (average x 2.31): 17.7 cap/s

So yeah, with three NOSes on another person, you've got up to double the cap to yourself while there's no way he can sustain his own without an injector, and booster charges are limited. Meanwhile, there's nothing stopping you from running the NOSes forever.

Alternatively, a cap recharger I increases your peak cap recharge from 17.7 cap/s to 20.8 cap/s. Clearly, using a heavy NOS is the better choice (not that I'm trying to suggest that putting cap rechargers on a PvP dominix is the ultimate goal of a NOS nerf).

So yeah, either Wayward Hooligan's suggestion, or my idea for giving it an activation cost (spending energy to get energy) would really be the best solution. Its not a huge gameplay change, and NOS stays useful, but its not quite as advantageous to use. If it turns out that makes them pretty balanced overall, maybe they could reduce the grid and CPU requirements as needed, too.

Complex ideas like an "unNOSsable region" of the capacitor with cap batteries and such could work, but in this case, I think its best to just stick with Occam's Razor.

Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
Posted - 2007.04.08 18:29:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 08/04/2007 18:59:11
Originally by: Taurevanime
I think the best proof of the matter that nos is overpowered is the fact that what you use to counter someone nossing you is nossing them. Unlike with ECM and such which you have ECCM to counter, there is nothing that reduces the effectiveness of a nos. Not your apparent lack of size or your flying speed.

The prevalance of nos modules in setups shows just how far it's gone.

In my own personal oppinion I'd rather see nos gone, the neutralisers are a much more balanced module, they'll reduce enemy cap while not adding to your own. But they should also get something like a signature resolution to make the larger ones less effective against smaller ships.


Sorry, but this is horse hockey Razz

NOS is a weapon. Its a high-slot module and an alternative to a turret or a launcher. Turrets are far more commonly used and that proves what? That turrets are overpowered? Of course not. That many uses NOS is not a sign that something is wrong. Its good for the game that there are more options than just launchers and turrets for the high slots. Its good for the game that there are alternative approaches to combat than just trying to out- damage/tank your opponent.

Some guys here tries really hard to make their arguments sound credible. There seems to be the idea that if people whine enough about something, that will by itself prove that there is a real issue. What the nerf brigands don't seem to realize is that the EVE community has many different groups that all want to change the game in a way that favor their particular way of playing. They are proponent with an agenda that serves themselves. But they try their best to sound as if they are arguing for the greater good of the game. Often its just a nonsense argument in the spirit of "look how much we are whining, surely our nerf agenda must have merit"


If i was a Dev here i would be concerned about the prevailing perception that CCP will "knee jerk" if the whining is persistent enough.

We have a new nerf-NOS-thread every week. And there is very seldom anything new. Its pure spamming if you ask me.


Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2007.04.08 19:32:00 - [84]
 

Actually, they are a cap transfer module - which are all highslot.

"That many uses NOS is not a sign that something is wrong"

No, it's the fact that it's a no-brainer for a secondary armermant which is the issue. Versatility at no worthwhile tradeoff.

"If i was a Dev here i would be concerned about the prevailing perception that CCP will "knee jerk" if the whining is persistent enough."

Yep. But in this case, there is a well reasoned, long standing argument and so that simply does not apply. No "knee-jerk" argument survives years and with substantial support (Not to say it might be right, but that it is a real concern of a substantial portion of the playerbase).

And you felt the need to counter what you consider spamming with a post rubishing it? Right.

Aurael Drakewing
Legio Immortalis
Abyssus Incendia
Posted - 2007.04.08 19:37:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: VanNostrum
Uhhh, easy, fit 1-2 light/med turrets and hit it. BS should not only be large turrets+nos. Even real battleships at sea have variety of weapons to counter different threats, not with giant turrets all over them. Had they equipped giant turrets only, it would be possible to sink them with a torpedo and a zodiac boat.

Removal of NOS will encourage BS to mount small-med-large weapons altogether to counter different threats. A BS with full heavy guns will be strong vs other BS but won't do anything vs small targets. Current state of game is pretty much BS+NOS wars with zillions of ships/modules unused.


Ahh...here's an anti-NOS argument that really gets me. Someone always brings up that "real battleships at sea have many weapons." Well, ya see, if EVE worked like real-life that would be fine. But it doesn't and we're limited to a maximum of 8 weapons on any ship. As a comparison, the armament for a real-life battleship (I used the USS Iowa, arguably one of the most heavily armed BB) (linkage for reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armament_of_the_Iowa_class_battleship)

Main Battery:
9 16-inch naval guns, in 3 3-gun turrets (already 1 gun up on the most heavily armed EVE ship, period, and each gun can be fired individually so there is no twinning. 9 guns = 9 turrets)

Secondary Battery:
12 5-inch guns, in 6 twin mounts (was originally 16 in 8 twins, but the refit in the 80's removed 2. Since they're twin mounts, and evenly distributed, we can say that it's equivalent to fitting 3 Dual-whatever turrets. So we're now up to 12 turrets)

up to 20 quad-40mm AA gun mounts (for the non-mathematically inclined, that's a total of 80 Shocked guns, for the one system. For argument's sake, we're going to imagine that EVE puts in a quad-mount for small weapons in large high-points. Again, we're going to assume that these were evenly distributed and say it's equivalent to fitting 10 Shocked of the new quad-mounts) OR
4 Phalanx CIWS mounts (automatic 20mm Gatling guns. Nothing even remotely equivalent in EVE (other than the horribly broken defender missiles), and I doubt there ever will be.)

8 Tomahawk cruise-missile launchers (Again for argument's sake, we're going to say that this equates to 2 cruise hardpoints, since the real BS didn't carry reloads for the launchers, and 32 missiles isn't that much in EVE)

4 Harpoon launchers (Assume the equivalent to Assault launchers with precision ammo. 2 more hardpoints.)

So, with all that...if you give me a battleship in EVE that can fit 22 turrets and 4 missile hardpoints, with little fitting problems (26 high-slots total) plus all the normal mids and lows, then and only then can you compare an EVE BS with a real-life BB for your anti-NOS arguements.

ViperVenom
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2007.04.08 19:50:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Icome4u
Edited by: Icome4u on 07/04/2007 03:14:44
NOS is the WORST enemy to capital ships... it makes them useless unless in big fleets since a handfull of BS with NOS setups can hold a Capital ship down with webs/scrambling/nosing...

At least give us capital NOS for us capital ship users... >_>


Signed// i agree all the way Give Cap ships Cap NOS/Neut's

And think if they Neuf NOS like the Neuf anything that is bit-ched about.. The Domi will no longer be a Solo Pwn ship. And we as EVE comuinty can't have that. NOS is fine and not over powered. If you not a complete Noob you kno stay out of NOS range or Get NOS'D and kill the person killing you cap. Next thing i bet ill read is Neuf Minnie guns cuz they use no cap. Or Neuf the Curse/Pilgram cuz they great ships. Neuf Missles and Torps due to they use no cap.

In 3 years of playing iv seen to much get nurfed cuz people bitc-hed... If they Nerf NOS then they (DEV'S) Need to fix the Nid (Minnie carrier)

Signed//Viper

Zirth
Caldari
Domination Heavy Industries
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2007.04.08 20:01:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Bein Glorious

I agree with this, really. What it all boils down to is that NOS just drains way too much cap.

Looking at the numbers:
Heavy Nosferatu I: 100 cap every 12 seconds, 8.33 cap/s
A dominix's average cap recharge with ESO V and EM V: 7.6628 cap/s
A dominix's peak cap recharge with ESO V and EM V (average x 2.31): 17.7 cap/s

So yeah, with three NOSes on another person, you've got up to double the cap to yourself while there's no way he can sustain his own without an injector, and booster charges are limited. Meanwhile, there's nothing stopping you from running the NOSes forever.

Alternatively, a cap recharger I increases your peak cap recharge from 17.7 cap/s to 20.8 cap/s. Clearly, using a heavy NOS is the better choice (not that I'm trying to suggest that putting cap rechargers on a PvP dominix is the ultimate goal of a NOS nerf).

So yeah, either Wayward Hooligan's suggestion, or my idea for giving it an activation cost (spending energy to get energy) would really be the best solution. Its not a huge gameplay change, and NOS stays useful, but its not quite as advantageous to use. If it turns out that makes them pretty balanced overall, maybe they could reduce the grid and CPU requirements as needed, too.

Complex ideas like an "unNOSsable region" of the capacitor with cap batteries and such could work, but in this case, I think its best to just stick with Occam's Razor.


Look at the numbers? Numbers can be taken out of proportion, numbers that counter your argument can be left out, and that's exactly what you're doing.

Seriously, look at the facts. There's a damn load of ships nowadays that use cap boosters, things like a medium cap booster is somewhat fundamental nowadays.

A medium cap booster adds about 37.5 capacitor per second. 6 Medium nos 30-35. Then there's the fact that there's plenty of ships with say 6 turrets, and 7 or 8 high-slots, packing single or dual nos of there own. With natural cap regen, there's plenty of setups that can hold against 6 nosferatu for long periods of time.

And it isn't even about per-second numbers, you take your 800 charge, inject it, recieve 800 capacitor, run your entire tank etc and leave little capacitor to nos away in the first place, putting them in a situation with little capacitor while they're relying on their nos often to run their setup.

Then there's also the fact that passive setups, missile users, projectile users, cap boosters, EW users like Dampeners or ECM modules, ships that outrange nos all counter nos. And that with full nos (even that not being enough in many cases with todays oh-so-popular cap boosters) your dmg is crap, only dmg you get is from drones which can be popped without too much problem.

Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2007.04.08 20:48:00 - [88]
 


NOS needs a small nerf in power, it should not clear a 'ceptor's cap in two cycles. The 'ceptor should be able to hold it until support shows up but not indefinitely.

But the main problem with NOS is of course the "I'm fitting a battleship for gang/solo I need NOS and..." mentality.

Stacking penalty will not do, people will just end up fitting 2-3 NOS as standard.

It needs utility slots (as mentioned before) meaning most ships can mount one NOS but only specialist ships can mount several.

Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
Posted - 2007.04.08 20:54:00 - [89]
 

Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 08/04/2007 21:03:29
Originally by: Maya Rkell

And you felt the need to counter what you consider spamming with a post rubishing it? Right.


If someone who knows that a subject has been debated over and over at these forums, posts a new thread about it, without bringing anything new to the table, it is spamming IMO. If people thinks that quantity of posts will make a difference it gives an incitement for spamming which makes these forums somewhat tedious to read. That was just an observation of the frequent threads concerning NOS ( i did not mean to say that you were spamming and maybe "horse hockey" was a bit harsh Wink)

Tista
Posted - 2007.04.08 20:58:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Valandril
Let me summarize
BATTLESHIP class nos is overpowered because FRIGATE class ship can't keep tackle on BATTLESHIPS with heavy nos fited ERGO can't solokill him ?
/me roll on the floor laughthing.

Nos if fine, don't fix something that is not broken.

All u could do is pimp smartbomb as was suggested in modules, so they shoot back to ship who nos u.


lol noob.

point is that nos is a 1 skill trained weapons that beats 100 day guns or missiles.

nos + drones = lol your screwed


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