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Topaz Skydiver
Narrative Freshfood
Posted - 2007.04.05 13:10:00 - [61]

Edited by: Topaz Skydiver on 05/04/2007 13:06:49
Maybe another problem is too much whining. Wink
Just because I'm bored or unhappy, EVE is going downhill. Whine. Maybe it's just you ?

Since someone mentioned the t20 incident, there was also too much whining.

The t20 incident finally gave those players a greencard to whine, who always cry cheat/exploit in pvp games. Of course they whined not only about what t20 has done, but everything else that might have happened.
They also try to tell me that EVE is going downhill. Yes, if I see their whines I might agree.

This post is no whine of course. Laughing

Posted - 2007.04.05 13:19:00 - [62]

About 3000 Goonswarm joined and the forums drowned in their childish whining.

Weird Alt
Posted - 2007.04.05 13:23:00 - [63]

Originally by: Aero089
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
Originally by: Aero089
EVE hasn't become all that bad, really, see things on the bright side Wink

I'm sorry, but...


and what bright side?

EVE's gone downhill. the t20 scandal only made it known to everyone else.

Unless CCP seriously shapes up, it'll continue to go downhill.

And you're a sad panda because you take offense at this.
Were you personally duped? Did T2O spawn a blueprint that can remotely nuke your hangar? Is it impossible for you to do the stuff you want in EVE because of this issue?

Really, get over it. Hardly anyone was affected by this, there's no need to bring it up again, especially not in this context.

If he thinks he was affected then he was affected ugh. I on the other hand experianced no ill effects from the fall out of that particular debackle, but then again im a ugh.

Thread Winner
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2007.04.05 13:28:00 - [64]

Originally by: Karosiak
About 3000 Goonswarm joined and the forums drowned in their childish whining.

Goons aren't allowed to post

Karan Hanid
Yotta Prospects
Posted - 2007.04.05 13:29:00 - [65]

I've been playing EVE for almost a year and this is probably my 5th or so post, because EVE forums are one of the most unhelpfull and badly moderated ones I've seen. The unhelpfullness, imho, generally stems from awful moderation. For example, one of the things that ****es me off the most is people posting with alts. I do not really understand why there are three characters per account in EVE anyway, since people usually invest all the time in only on character anyway and the other two are just alts in noob ships... which imo is almost an exploit, because it destroys the "mini-profession" of a scout as well as causing a few other problems, but that's another topic. Coming back to forums issue - why not only allow the main character to post? If CCP wants to keep three characters per account, then why not only let the character with a skill in training to post? Or perhaps the character with most SPs out of the three? The full character name and corporation name should also be visible when you post. EVE is a game that requires a lot of time and people who start playing it and stay on usually care about their reputation. Thus - the people who post crap/grief on forums will be known by the whole EVE community. This will allow us to at least set them to ignore list in-game straight away or set negative standings or kill them when you see them or at least know who they are and what they are and not allow them in your alliance/corporation.

The moderators should also, imho, be A LOT harsher in their *snips* and such like. Players should be warned, for example, three times and then simply banned, only from the forums though, not from game. It should perhaps be visible to people in-game that the person is banned from forums and perhaps even why he was banned. The GMs/Moderators should put this in in the "Notes" section of the character sheet.

I do not know the reason CCP still hasnt implemented any changes to the game, but it seems to me they got lazy, because, imho, it's easier to shut players up or make them ignore the exploit/problem, because, again, EVE is a "long" game and only of it's kind. Log On Traps **** people off, CCP favouritism to BoB (whether it's true or not) ****es people off and lots of other things, but - they wont quit, because by the time you start to really understand what's going in EVE and what's about, you have already played for about 6-12 months. It's unlikely and very hard for a 3 or 4 year character to just stop playing EVE after so much has been put in it already. And also, even you quit EVE, but still want to play a MMO, which one would you choose? Imho, Sony's slogan "" would suit EVE perfectly atm. Maybe when another heavily-PVP-oriented game with a single servers comes out and starts successfully competing with EVE, CCP will realise the need to respond to consumers faster. A LOT faster.

However, this does not mean making the game easier. Personally - I like the steep learning curve in EVE. I think it's a perfect detterent to young and immature players, as well as people who are mentally challenged.

I refuse to believe that it's the new players that are driving EVE downhill. There is the same ratio, maybe about 1/20 or 5% of "bad" players joining now, just like when EVE only started. However, I havent played EVE then, so perhaps I'm wrong. But I do know that most of the people in EVE are nice and mature, hence the average age of 27 (dont know how reliable this statistic is though). Personally - most of the people I've met are over 25. I myself am 18 though. And I defenitely do not believe that any serious amount of people is migrating from WoW to EVE. First of all because the games are completely different and second - since may 2006 the average number of players has only increase by 10 000, which is a neglible number of players for WoW...

P.S. Can someone explain to me what "e-peen" and "metagamer" are?

Damien Smith
The Insane Tormentors
Posted - 2007.04.05 13:38:00 - [66]

Originally by: Karan Hanid

P.S. Can someone explain to me what "e-peen" and "metagamer" are?

e-peen - internet wang. The more you smacktalk, own noobs, and generally be a badass the bigger your epeen gets. After a while you can swing it over your head while proclaiming your l33tness.

Metagaming - alt scouts, log on traps, voice comms spies, etc etc. Using out of game tactics to get ingame results.

My e-peen is over nine thousand but I don't like to brag. Wink

Ling Xiao
Prism Project Technologies
Posted - 2007.04.05 14:48:00 - [67]

Originally by: Thread Winner
Originally by: Karosiak
About 3000 Goonswarm joined and the forums drowned in their childish whining.

Goons aren't allowed to post

With their mains.

Blind Man
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2007.04.05 14:51:00 - [68]

people are getting bored of WoW Confused

Kalixa Hihro
Posted - 2007.04.05 15:22:00 - [69]

Originally by: Soporo
The game itself is designed to favor the agressor, the scammer, the thief, any sort of bad meta-gaming habits, and yes, the griefer.

Ah, just like real life.

Father Shillelagh
Posted - 2007.04.05 15:36:00 - [70]

Edited by: Father Shillelagh on 05/04/2007 15:32:55
To the OP, i whole heartily agree. The EvE community is awful.

Imho its full of W******. Yes a wide stereotypical generalization which i will include myself too. Flame me, i dont care. Been there got the 3rd degree burns.

All this community bar a very small % does is, flame, wise crack, taugt and generally add negative remarks to a persons post calling them whiners, noobs etc etc etc.

Its like everyone is trying to stomp all over another players for no reason what so ever and for some reason im thinking the `cold-biatch` that is Eve is rubbing off onto ppls attitudes from the game to the forum.

United Freemen Alliance
Posted - 2007.04.05 16:06:00 - [71]

Edited by: rushin on 05/04/2007 16:04:13
hi there :)

I am far, far too new around here to comment on the community going down hill, but having been in my last game since launch and leaving shortly after posting something very [url= 'oh no url linking?']similar[/url] i do have some observations..

The community of a game is only maintained when older players welcome and encourage newer ones, show them how things are done, lead by example basically. This is fine and dandy most of the time, but tends to break down under certain circumstances; if a lot of the vet's leave or lose their love of the game, and if there is a huge influx of new players so that their play style overwhelms what's currently in place.

Seems that both these things have happened recently here, but at the end of the day you cant pass off the deterioration of community to the devs - sure they influence it with game mechanics, at the end of the day though its up to everyone here to maintain and shape how we interact with each other. I've read some really nasty things in the NPC corp chat, people really picking on newbies just for the fact they are new and don’t know what they are doing.. that kind of attitude is truly pathetic, and it just encourages a lack of respect on everyone’s part.

With so many people on one server you are never going to get on with everyone, or even the majority, but this is true in RL also, so it's to be expected. But even if you see lots of teenage boys running around being well teenage boys, rest assured they aren’t the only new pilots appearing, and they will also be the ones that get bored and leave within a few months.

uff, that turned out a bit too long, a little [email protected] today ;-)

PS 3 weeks now, where is my avatar!!

Posted - 2007.04.05 16:13:00 - [72]

To the OP:

Why is reality TV popular? Because, generally speaking, people like to watch idiots argue.

Same story here, only the audience gets to join in.

The smart ones change the channel, unfortunately - and those are the helpful, friendly (etc.) folks you're missing. They're still around, it's just harder to find a channel now where everybody isn't trying to vote everybody else off the island, so to speak.

Tsanse Kinske
Posted - 2007.04.05 16:14:00 - [73]

Originally by: Thread Winner

Or maybe I just as easily tossed out some unrealistic stereotype against a certain type of player just like every one else did

And that's all it takes really. Somebody says something I think is foolish. I respond by turning it up another notch. Of course that person or somebody else who shares their view has to strike back even harder... Blah blah blah. Eventually other people who were having actual conversations in the thread either heat up or abandon it. Everybody becomes a thread loser.

And as far as I can tell, most of this is just done because people want to seem smarter or harder or funnier than somebody else on the internet. Confused

Deviana Sevidon
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2007.04.05 22:24:00 - [74]

The problem is also, that many people have never learned about how to have a good discussion.

A good discussion is someone that brings results, even if all involved parties in the end only agree to disagree. But this is something schools do rarely, if ever, teach and is never shown on TV.

In the end we have someting like the internet. Where many people believe that crying out louder, or chestbeating, or smacking down with personal insults every person who believes otherwise is an achievement.

This is of course a generalisation, but sadly in many cases correct.

Just a few basic rules, that I would wish, everyone would apply to himself.

1. Feel free to attack the argument, not the person who made the argument.

Good: Your operation was not a success, because you lost nearly all of your fleet.

Bad: No one can beat us. We killed the sheep that foolhardy followed your incompetent FC.

There are other basic rules. For example, always quantify data. Avoid over-generalisations, and last but not least, be prepared to let an argument go. If you have obviously proven wrong, do not continue to support a failed argument. Instead, think about, what went wrong, where did you make a mistake. If you still believe if that your opponent is incorrect, then come up with something better. An argument able to withstand the assaults directed at it.

I promise, it can be a lot of fun, ripping every argument, thrown at your argument, appart.YARRRR!!

Versatech Co.
Posted - 2007.04.06 00:30:00 - [75]

What happened?

Our community became obsolete, basically.

New players joined, and decided that as they hadn't been involved in Eve's history, they would just draw a line under it and start again.
They ridicule those who enjoy being involved, rather than just seeing Eve as playing "Internet Spaceships".
The have decided that the old Eve is not compatible with them, and so it must be killed off, all traces removed.
I invested a lot of time in to this community, to the Eve experience. I am proud of the input I have made, and the people who I have helped. It would seem though that getting deeply involved with a community (Eve that is, not a certain other community), rather than just treating Eve as a superficial entertainment, is a sign of great stupidity.

I frankly can't be bothered fighting against the turning tide anymore.
Either Eve will shun them, and the community will take pride in more than just playing a game, or Eve will be theirs. All I can do is sit back and watch.

Pesonally, however, I wish they would all just "fofofofo".

SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2007.04.06 01:25:00 - [76]

The more people playing the game the more "types" of people youre going to have. Yeah your gonna have more "a$$holes" (or whatever you wanna call them) but youre also gonna have more "helpfull" people as well. It just so happens the "a$$holes" tend to be a bit louder by nature. Its all oddly like real life, look at our governments. =)

As for myself, as a relatively new player, I couldnt have been happier with the people I have met and "chose" (here lies the key) to interact with. Ive recieved much help along the way, and from time to time I even return to the the chaos of the help channel just to randomly answer the questions that I can, and pass along some of what has been given to me.

JonLuc McPew
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2007.04.06 01:54:00 - [77]

EVE going downhill?
I dont know, depends on your outlook.
I tried to make a list of things that I think are true and factual, and potential problems; Of course I realise it will be flamed, but make your own judgement.

KillBoards are king.(No idea why, as so many people lie about losses). It seems to promulgate excessive poddings, sec status loss, and general bad behavior like logof's etc.

Suspicion and mistrust is the word of the day (if you want to keep your stuff), particularly on Corp/POS level.

This includes suspicion of continuous Dev abuse, right or wrong, this won't EVER go away due to the way it was handled in the past.
People like the idea of Devs playing the game.
People hate the idea that they do this at the very highest levels, in huge game shaking allainces. Again, the potential for abuse is simply astonishing, if for no other reason than the exchange of information not available to the general EVE public.
The very face of EVE has changed due to this perception.

More and persistent rookie mishandling.

A persistant and determined attempt to economically force players, many of which are casuals, to other aspects/areas of the game.

Vitriol and spite prevalent throughout the official forums.

Meta-gaming encouraged (or at least not discouraged) in all forms, Alts and Trial Alt spy/susicide/scout, sellable charrracters and ISK,etc. Exploiting and Farming and Macroing abounds.

More and worse lag affecting many many people, of which a lot have watched these changes since day 1.
A lot of pvp veterans are pessimistic about the future of fleet fights.

Old, OLD buggy aspects of the game that seemingly have become "features" due to sheer neglect.

Aside from the ocasional Blog, in which any hard questions are ignored, no real discourse between devs and players that is visible. Old timers say this wasnt the case in the distant past.
Extremely Secretive. Very little, if any, data is ever released in even the vaguest of terms concerning almost anything. Occasional Stealth boosts, Stealth nerfs.

Differing judgements from different GM's concerning the same EULA violations and other similar problems.

General perception by a large section of the populace that believes CCP ignores players longstanding and reasonable industrial concerns in favor of other issues. The Miner's Cause recent thread is indicative of this.

The glacial speed at which old, known, persistant, oft decried imballances are dealt with. Amarr.

Thats some of the bad I could come up with right away.

Now for some of the good.

New content.
Shiny stuff.
Lottery dying, Invention.
The Dev concept that pvp occurs too quickly, incoming intitiatives designed to improve combat length.
NFS = acknowledgement of a problem. Wt0.
LowSec is actually getting some new content.
And not least, a few months of bliss till I became aware of the issues noted in the top of the post.

Pelennor Swarm
Posted - 2007.04.06 02:07:00 - [78]

We must all do our part to stop this belligerent behavior.

Very Happy

Lt Angus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.04.06 03:14:00 - [79]

Its always been like this as far as I can remember

Ira Theos
Posted - 2007.04.06 03:52:00 - [80]

I know why the community has gone downhill!

As soon as they let the Minmatar scum post here, the place began to REEK of decay!!Cool

Posted - 2007.04.06 04:28:00 - [81]

ah but what better way to replenish slaves, than to let them think they broke free of our grasp? soon we shall re-enslave all of them.

City of Certitude
Zinc Alliance
Posted - 2007.04.06 04:46:00 - [82]

Edited by: Tiodus on 06/04/2007 04:47:44
Let's see how this goes without reading the op.

My guess:
1. CCP introduces a virtual reality without any form of police guarding the *in-game* conduct of the players. This means no courts, no reporting instances of crimes. This isn't an exact describing, but imagine our rl society without these instances.
2. After the initial falling-in-love with the freedom period, the players starts to act (also) accordingly to the (darker) design of the game. This in turn get's indirectly boosted by people who hear how Eve is played and flock here for the sole reason of the possibility of causing grief to others.


*edit* Ok I'm pretty content with what I wrote in regards to the OP. However, I want to throw in a very smart quote from Soporo, who takes what I described as 'freedom' a little further:

Originally by: soporo

The game itself is designed to favor the agressor, the scammer, the thief, any sort of bad meta-gaming habits, and yes, the griefer.

That sort of behavior tends to feed on itself and snowball.
Why then, is anyone even vaguely suprised at the amount of vitriol present in game and on boards?


Xori Ruscuv
Multiversal Enterprise Inc.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.04.06 04:52:00 - [83]

Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 06/04/2007 05:08:31
You are reading the general forum. That's the problem. (OH GOD, so am I, that must mean I'm bored! Crying or Very sad)

To many of you: Quit blaming PVPers for the ills of the game. They're right. This is a PVP game. It has been a PVP game from the beginning. The devs remain committed to making sure this game DOES NOT become post-Trammel UO. If you don't like it, don't play the game.

More to the OP's point: I feel that the biggest problem with the community as it stands is:
- Lack of good "sportsmanship": Combatants fail to respect each other. They smack, they whine, they petition legit losses.
- People who "can't" just whine instead of trying harder: Instead of standing up for themselves and learning how to survive, people would rather come to the forum and whine, as if they are entitled to gameplay modifications simply because their hauler got blown up while they were AFKing through lowsec.
- This is an empire building game: People fail to realise that. They run to the forums crying "OMGZ GRIEFeRZ SUX" rather than realizing the essence of the gameplay is about territory and destroying what you oppose.

City of Certitude
Zinc Alliance
Posted - 2007.04.06 05:01:00 - [84]

Edited by: Tiodus on 06/04/2007 04:57:38
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv

To many of you: Quit blaming PVPers for the ills of the game. They're right. The devs have said so.

1936: Jews are bad. H/tler said so.

(/flamebait? Nvm I'm going to bed, a long day behind.)


Xori Ruscuv
Multiversal Enterprise Inc.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.04.06 05:05:00 - [85]

Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 06/04/2007 05:07:00
Originally by:

Originally by: Xori Ruscuv

To many of you: Quit blaming PVPers for the ills of the game. They're right. The devs have said so.

1936: Jews are bad. H/tler said so.

What the hell are you talking about?

This is a game. The devs make the game. They define what it IS about. Then you come along and whine about it and compare them to mass murdering dictator? If you hate the game so bloody much, just quit. Can you not draw the line between reality and fantasy? Would you play WOW if you didn't like killing the same dragon over and over and over until your "L33t Purplz of WtfPwningYoo" drops, after which you lose the roll? NO! You wouldn't!

You may as well say to them "DUDE SPACE SUX, WE NEED ELVES" - and then compare CCP to Ivan the Terrible! Ludicrous.

City of Certitude
Zinc Alliance
Posted - 2007.04.06 05:21:00 - [86]

Ok one more post.

How I see it is that people are discussing the community and perhaps how to improve the atmosphere here. By pointing blankly to what a dev said doesn't really contribute imo.
Now if I did that, on the other hand, I'm sure it would only make me look insecure and defensive, of something I don't have any other reason to than anger. And I know this would make me rabble in caps about elves while going for cheap shots on a personal level like calling other posters "ludicrous"Laughing

Now, gnSmile

Xori Ruscuv
Multiversal Enterprise Inc.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.04.06 05:38:00 - [87]

Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 06/04/2007 05:46:36
Originally by: Tiodus
doesn't really contribute imo.

Hey man - you're the one who brought H!tler into it. ;)

And yes - what I said DOES contribute. People here are blaming the poor shape of the community on PVP. This ticks me off to no end, honestly. Thus, I demonstrate the following: This is a game of PVP. If you do not like it, you might try something else - just as you would not play a game of elves and dragons if you didn't care for those things.

Originally by: Tiodus
of something I don't have any other reason to than anger.

In fact, I do have a reason to anger. See, I'm a PVPer. That means that I have/do: pirate, wardec, fight in/with/against alliances, etc.

Well, see, when I do those first two things - which are completely legit mind you, and entirely within the scope of Eve's game mechanics - I get hate mail. I get hatemail saying that they hope my girlfriend gets cancer. They say they hope my house burns down. They say they hope I lose my job and get serious diseases, etc. etc. etc. I could go on all night.

My point: These are people who are playing a game and failing to recognize what the game IS about. They are failing to recognize the fundamental truths that surround them. When I carebear, I don't smacktalk when I get killed. I don't send hatemail. I don't feel aversion toward those that kill me - because you know what? That's the game. I play it. I take responsibility for it.

Originally by: Tiodus
And I know this would make me rabble in caps about elves while going for cheap shots on a personal level like calling other posters "ludicrous"

That's what happens when you compare the devs to H!tler.

The basic idea is still the same, any way you slice it: people come in here and blame a failing community on PVP; they complain about how the game encourages/fosters/caters to PVP and PVPers. Well, that is because the game IS a PVP game.

But see, PVP/PVPers aren't what is "breaking" the community. It is the lack of respect for other players (smacktalk, etc.). It is the failure to understand the "it isn't personal, it's business" end of alliance politics and corp relations.

Coran Ordus
Dominion Arms Supply
Posted - 2007.04.06 06:14:00 - [88]

I think it's fundamentally a problem of numbers.

It's not PVPers. It's not carebears. It's not CCP. It's not BOB. It's not the Goons.

For every 99 people that join that lurk or randomly help, 1 joins that holds an extremist, absurd opinion and flaunts it everywhere.

When there are only 5000 people, the herd of idiots is small, trackable, unrespected, and people still see sense in ignoring them. When a random flaming alt comes up, you can probably recognize the main.

When there are 50,000 people, suddenly the herd is bigger, and often will feed itself, as idiot on side A will happily trade flames with idiot on side B. The percentage of idiots/decent folk is the same, but the perception is of a much bigger cesspool.

Even though the number of potentially helpful folks is increasing as well, they stay out, or burn out.

I wish there was a magical solution to this, but if there is, I don't know it. Banning of alts from the forums might do a little good: when mouthing off comes with the threat of an in-game wardec or gank, people might watch what they say more. ... Or not. Confused

Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.04.06 06:41:00 - [89]

Been here for over 4 years now, and i did see "the community" degenerate quite a bit. Yes, there was flaming and trolling then, but it was also cleverly disguised in posts that might actually make a point - The forums were actually a fun place to be. Right now it's just "OMG IM BETTER THAN YOU NOOB STFU GO PLAY WOW", and tbh, i'm growing tired of it. The fact that Jade got banned doesn't make it better :P

Seems like people lost all respect for each other. Everyone here is an arrogant individualist who only cares for themselves. Well, i have news for you, you are playing a multiplayer game together with thousands of other people. The point is to have fun playing with other people, and if you're here just to have fun with or by yourself you're in the wrong place...

If it were up to me i'd go have a good long talk with some people, and if they insist in uprooting the community for no reason i'd advise them to find another game...

Xori Ruscuv
Multiversal Enterprise Inc.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.04.06 06:48:00 - [90]

Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 06/04/2007 06:54:28
Originally by: Reiisha
now it's just "OMG IM BETTER THAN YOU NOOB STFU GO PLAY WOW", and tbh, i'm growing tired of it.

Originally by: Reiisha
If it were up to me i'd go have a good long talk with some people, and if they insist in uprooting the community for no reason i'd advise them to find another game...

Hmm ugh
Originally by: Coran Ordus
when mouthing off comes with the threat of an in-game wardec or gank, people might watch what they say more. ... Or not. Confused

You would think that the removal of anonymity and introduction of repercussions would help quell some of it. I would think so, too - if I hadn't already seen it happen.

Long ago (several years) I played a game called "Tibia". (, if you want to look it up) Very simple game. 4 classes. Simple ruleset. Small world, few players per world (TONS of worlds though). Forum warring/propaganda was just like it is here - but this is just a much bigger world with 10x more people. People would run around killing each other for EVERY little thing. Someone would "Rolling Eyes" on the forums, and the reply would be "You're hunted." And I tell you what - Think this game has harsh death penalty? This game is nothing. In Tibia, you lose a big chunk of your experience every time you die - meaning that people would literally camp someone and kill them until they were level 1.

Of course, then again, people would still just come here and whine about how this game is too PVP oriented. Evil or Very Mad

I agree with you about the problem of anonymity. I don't post with an alt. In fact, a while back I was having some serious health problems, on too many narcotic painkillers, and I was bored with the game - I started being a trolling little ***** on the forums. This is something that I've had to deal with, instead of hiding. It was a bad thing that I did, but I've apologized to several people and made good - because in fact I like this game and want to continue being involved. I think that perhaps banning alt posting might be a good idea - perhaps barring people from posting in certain parts of the forums with characters under a certain number of SP. However, I fear this would REALLY screw over new players. Crying or Very sad

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