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Kalbagar
Posted - 2007.03.16 05:35:00 - [1]
 

I've been looking at training for command ships, however the more I think about it the more I start thinking that they seem weaker then battleships. They also cost alot more. So is the training needed to get them worth it? Can you solo in them at all or are they just for fleet battles...?

Pellaeon DuGalle
Caldari
Deep Black Industries
House of Mercury
Posted - 2007.03.16 07:20:00 - [2]
 

Command ships are FTW!. I'm personally still deciding whether to go Amarr or Gallente Command ships.

Command ships have a far FAR better tank then Battleships. In fact, there's a semi-famous incident where a single command ships was declared primary in a fleet battle, and it tanked 16 battleships for the next 5 minutes, leading to the utter destruction of the attacking fleet. I believe the command ship itself was lost in that instance, but it bought enough time for its friendlies to decimate the enemy.

Damage wise command ships can really put on some hurting. They have no problems with breaking a battleship's tank in combat. Their main weakness is a total lack of range, and a comparative weakness to NOS (compared to a BS). But then, everything smaller then a BS is in danger of a BS-sized NOS or few.

Countess NotFarOut2
Posted - 2007.03.16 09:07:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Countess NotFarOut2 on 16/03/2007 09:05:38
Quote:
Command ships have a far FAR better tank then Battleships

Correct. They also have far less damage dealing capabilities than battleships. I fly Gallente, and if there is a choice between a BS and a CS, there is no choice, really. Dominix rules.

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.03.16 12:42:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Countess NotFarOut2
Quote:
Command ships have a far FAR better tank then Battleships

Correct. They also have far less damage dealing capabilities than battleships.

Astarte.

'nuff said Wink

Humpalot
Posted - 2007.03.16 13:03:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Countess NotFarOut2
Edited by: Countess NotFarOut2 on 16/03/2007 09:05:38
Quote:
Command ships have a far FAR better tank then Battleships

Correct. They also have far less damage dealing capabilities than battleships. I fly Gallente, and if there is a choice between a BS and a CS, there is no choice, really. Dominix rules.


It is not as big a difference as you might think. Here is a graph comparing vanilla setups of an Abaddon, Absolution and Harbinger (assumed no mods, L5 in relevant ship skill for all). You can see the Absolution is not so far off DPS wise than the Abaddon. It does lack the range of course but then the Absolution is a faster ship (still slow I know but not as slow).

But then the Absolution has a far better tank than the Abaddon or Harbinger and is a lot more cap friendly than an Abaddon is.

I realize that in full gank setup a battleship will outpace a Command Ship easily but the superior tank of Command Ships makes up for a lot of that. As mentioned earlier a Damnation (pretty sure it was a Damnation) tanked 16 player battleships for 5 minutes. A remarkable performance (and frankly the Damnation is another one of those lousy Khanid designs...its offense is in the crapper but it can field one helluva tank...see the Eos for a Fleet Command ship that is off the charts in all respects).

In short Command Ships rock. They are hell to train up for though. I have not done the math but I suspect training to fly a Dread or Carrier would take about as long. Still, great ships all around.

Simon Jax
Gallente
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.03.16 15:22:00 - [6]
 

I'm pretty well off as a Drone boat pilot, and by virtue of EVE-Mon I can say that at this stage I could get into a Carrier faster than a Command Ship. Granted, there isn't much of a difference, but there it is.

I wouldn't personally want to start a debate on ComShip vs. Carriers, but they are damn sexy beasts the both of 'em.

Asestorian
Domination.
Posted - 2007.03.16 16:53:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Countess NotFarOut2
Quote:
Command ships have a far FAR better tank then Battleships

Correct. They also have far less damage dealing capabilities than battleships.

Astarte.

'nuff said Wink


Yeah indeed. Astarte in gank-mode has what can only be described as "Shocked" DPS.

Zirth
Caldari
Domination Heavy Industries
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2007.03.18 19:26:00 - [8]
 

The question Command ships vs Battleships I've been pondering about myself for a while. The past time I've been training for an Astarte, but I find myself in doubt wether it's a good idea.

I only have about 25d to go for the Astarte, however, I've been dissapointed before.

HAC vs Battlecruiser? I always dreamed of flying a HAC, but a week after I got into an Ishtar I switched to the Myrmidon and never looked back. I payed 250m for the ship, a week later after having had great results with the Myrmidon, doing stuff I could've done in my Ishtar, I got blobbed by 3 other Myrmidons. I killed one, then died. I lost 40-50m, I was glad I didn't fly a HAC, cause my Ishtar would've been dead just as fast, possibly not even taking a HAC with it cause of the lower DPS, and I would've lost 250m instead of 40-50.

So now I fear I'll run into the same problem. I understand it's not exactly the same thing, but am I once again paying more for a ship, that takes longer to train, and does worse in PvP?

After all, command ships were balanced n their links. They can boost entire fleets, which means it doesn't get a solo-type of ship bonus, but a command-link bonus for their ship bonus.

Just like a drone-ship will have extra damage from drones, it is balanced by turrets or missiles that don't do as much damage. (because there's no damage bonuses from your ship, or little turret slots. Think Ishtar). When the drones die the ship loses it's edge. The same way a command ship loses its edge when it doesn't use command links

Sure, a command ship is still great without the links... But would it still be better than a battleship? For fleet battles, a command ship is excellent. But I'm the type of person to play in small-gangs, where 25% extra armor on 3 ships is just 3.000 extra armor, a fleet of 100 people means 25% is really great. But for small gangs (2-5) or solo-pvp, wouldn't a battleship like a Dominix be better than a a command ship?

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2007.03.18 20:44:00 - [9]
 

More armor means nothing if it doesn't have any resists. Also consider other benefits such as more ship bonusses, better chance of getting away in a gatecamp, faster locking time, faster aligning and warping to a target, higher speed and probably plenty of other things.

Ezram Iena
Posted - 2007.03.19 10:09:00 - [10]
 

Properly tanked and with all level 5 armor tanking skills, an absolution can get a 92% average resists and still leave room for a plate and a repairer - that is a staggering 140K actual (unresisted) damage.
In comparison, the best tankable amarr battlecruiser can only get to 84% average resists, meaning that it takes twice as much damage as the Command Ship equivalent, and will need to repair twice as fast to keep up.

Demarcus
Killjoy.
Posted - 2007.03.19 11:58:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Demarcus on 19/03/2007 11:55:04
Not to mention what a highly skilled pilot with active command mods and a mind link implant can do for a gang. Its like giving everyone a couple additional t2 tanking mods.

Jayne Tamm
Posted - 2007.12.18 12:32:00 - [12]
 

sorry to bring up a long dead thread...but was readng through it and found it to be a interesting read.

question i put to you guys is this;

does the fleet command battleship have a role in small-medium gang pvp or pve? or does this ships benefit really only come into play for large gangs?

are the bonuses the fleet cs gives noticeable in smaller gangs?

also, hypothetically, if you werent going to put weapons in the remaining high slots ( after 3 warfare links ), what would you put on instead?

Sir Cyco
Caldari
The Arcanum
Posted - 2007.12.18 12:52:00 - [13]
 

I am glad you brought up this old thread....lol.I fly a Nighthawk in lvl 5 missions...SOLO!!!...Its tank is unbelievable and the DPS is close to a Raven's.I own a CNR but usually only bring it out for structure-busting and then ,only after I have killed everything in my Nighthawk.I dont mean to sound like I solo ALL lvl 5 missions or that I run many.I do solo ALL lvl 4 missions in my Nighthawk.Its very rare that I have to warp away.Maybe the Command ships are for lazy people, I use 2 Caldari Navy Inv Fields and Navy Kinetic missiles for almost every lvl 4 mission I run.Not have to change my set up for every mission saves me time.In my CNR I have to research the missions and then re-fit accordingly.

xMartok
Minmatar
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.12.18 14:06:00 - [14]
 

i m looking at minimatar command ship and i dont see any difference then a regular BC
except the gan modules. so how command ship get alot of tank then ordinary BC?

Ithoriel
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2007.12.18 14:16:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: xMartok
i m looking at minimatar command ship and i dont see any difference then a regular BC
except the gan modules. so how command ship get alot of tank then ordinary BC?


Look at the resistances they get - reduces incoming damage drastically.


Captain Schmungles
Caldari
Freelancing Corp
Confederation of Independent Corporations
Posted - 2007.12.18 14:49:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Kalbagar
I've been looking at training for command ships, however the more I think about it the more I start thinking that they seem weaker then battleships. They also cost alot more. So is the training needed to get them worth it? Can you solo in them at all or are they just for fleet battles...?


Command ships are absolutely worth it. You can absolutely solo in them. They tank extremely well and do pretty good damage. The gang bonuses are great in fleet battles, and despite the fact that command ships are battlecruisers, anyone who's flown a bs against one will say that in the hands of an intelligent pilot a command ship is, at the very least, any battleship's equal.

Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
Posted - 2007.12.18 16:07:00 - [17]
 

It's probably worth bearing in mind that it'll take a good 1/3 of a year (~100 days) to train up enough to even fly one, let alone fly it effectively (i.e. the ancilliary support skills). In contrast it doesn't take an awful long time to have the pre-reqs to get into a BS.

Jayne Tamm
Posted - 2007.12.18 18:30:00 - [18]
 

what about fleet cs's for smaller sized gangs? is their gang bonus still noticeable in 5- 10 man gangs?

ZerKar
Caldari
Zen'Tar
Posted - 2007.12.18 19:13:00 - [19]
 

As as been stated a Command Ship is very powerful. It has a better Tank in many cases than a Tech I Battleship due to higher Resistances and close HP amounts. SOME, not all, But some BC's can also dish out more DPS than their conterparts. The Astarte is a nice example of a very deadly BC. Being Gallente it is of course superior to anything else in the same class but just LOOK at its bonuses. That thing will rip a BS six ways from sunday in no time if it can get up to them.

On top of this many BC's have a good number of slots for fitting extra mods and goodies, decent drone bays, and can still use Warfare link modules for when you want to team up with friends and do some really evil things. They also tend to have quicker locking times making them excellent Pod Poppers.

They are very much in every way but Range the Superior of any BS if the right one is chosen. Even the Mighty Dommi would not last long against a Blaster Astaste right up in its face unleashing its full fury.

Pang Grohl
Posted - 2007.12.18 19:15:00 - [20]
 

Yes. With a highly skilled leadership pilot, the Gang Links boost their affected attributes at the level of a module or rig across the entire group.

Sparkius
Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.18 21:21:00 - [21]
 

The Abaddon, when equipped with Mega Pulse lasers as you would expect, does a full 33 percent more damage than the Absolution. I'm not discounting command ships; I fly an Absolution occasionally. However, I don't think the return on investment is there for solo work in general (considering the problem with insuring tech 2 ships).

In my opinion, the tank and damage output on the Abaddon are sufficient when compared to the Absolution in nearly all cases.


 

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