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blankseplocked Dear ignorant, jealous noobs (5 people will be T2 producers soon!)
 
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Teufel Hund
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:35:00 - [61]
 

Wow who let all the Marxists in? I guess I should just give up 20 million of my 35 million skillpoint character because it isnt fair to the newer players. Since when is there a level playing field in life or in EVE? I hop on to EVE and pray to the R&D agent God for a nice BPO but have yet to see one.

So because I dont have one that means everyone who does have one should give it up or have it turn into a BPC? Doesnt matter how they worked for it, whether saving isk from missions, pirating it from that unlucky guy, mining for weeks, to buy it or training up the skills or paying for 3-4 years worth of EVE to have tons of research points. That is some scary thinking. Im sorry, I dont expect to get a level playing field, I have to level it myself.

Whats next? Players starting with 10 millions skillpoints to make them on a more "fair playing field" as other players? Downright scary.

Mortania
Minmatar
No Compromise
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:36:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Topaz Skydiver
Edited by: Topaz Skydiver on 02/03/2007 09:27:29
Invention needs to be tweeked, but it's not about building your own tech-2 modules for personal use ! It's supposed to make those rich, who go through all the hassle, time investment, isk investment and logistic work to get competitive.

I'm noticing that I can't get easy into it from one day to another and that's 'good', because I don't want to compete with 10.000 inventors in the end, so that t2 production will be as flooded with producers as tech-1 production is.

Actually, if it feels like wasting isk and time for a few weeks it's a good sign. I think the interfaces are already too cheap. Looks like the drop-rate is way too high. Invention is for those, who want to work their ass of to get into it and not for the random mission runner, who wants to produce a bit tech-2 like he produces his own ammo.

If invention means real hard work in the beginning and reaping the rewards later with less effort, then it's what I'm looking for.


Yes!

T2 BPOs from lotteries for mission runners should be a very rare thing.
T2 BPOs/good BPCs from invention people should be a hard thing to achieve.

Small run T2 BPCs from rat droppings, small RP purchases from parttimer Mission runners ; these should be relatively common, so that many people can get a few T2 items here and there, but not everything.

There needs to be a market, and I think a varied market. It was very cool when we operated the Ishtar BPO for a while, we tooled the whole corp around that activity, it gave us an identity. Where we sold it changed the face of the market in that area and probably changed what people around us chose to do ship running, or created a secondary market of people doing regional buys and reselling in other areas. Specialization in production is just as intersting as it is in character building. When T2 is just as common as T1 is, it will be just as boring. And while everyone going pew-pew won't care, those corps who actually ENJOY production will have one less intersting thing going on in EVE.

Mortania
Minmatar
No Compromise
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:38:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Teufel Hund

Whats next? Players starting with 10 millions skillpoints to make them on a more "fair playing field" as other players? Downright scary.


Have you made a new character lately?

Most of them start with better skills than I have in some areas now 3 years later. 800k skillpoint start.

Quilan Ziller
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:54:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Teufel Hund
Wow who let all the Marxists in? I guess I should just give up 20 million of my 35 million skillpoint character because it isnt fair to the newer players. Since when is there a level playing field in life or in EVE? I hop on to EVE and pray to the R&D agent God for a nice BPO but have yet to see one.

So because I dont have one that means everyone who does have one should give it up or have it turn into a BPC? Doesnt matter how they worked for it, whether saving isk from missions, pirating it from that unlucky guy, mining for weeks, to buy it or training up the skills or paying for 3-4 years worth of EVE to have tons of research points. That is some scary thinking. Im sorry, I dont expect to get a level playing field, I have to level it myself.

Whats next? Players starting with 10 millions skillpoints to make them on a more "fair playing field" as other players? Downright scary.


So, please do tell everybody - why do you think you are special? How do you "deserve" an ISK printer and someone else does not? I pray you also use the words "hard work" and "personal responsibility" in your spiel.

See, the PvP side of the game is actually balanced in such a way that a 5 mil SP noob has a chance of winning against a 35 mil SP character. And, yes, it has been done on purpose, and actually makes this game fun. As for T2 BPs, currently they amount to an "I-Win-EVE" button. They produce ungodly income with very little effort involved. As such, they are unbalanced - in a game mechanics "unbalanced" sense. There is nothing Marxist in stating that the current T2 manufacturing system is unbalanced, corrupted ("recent events" anyone?), and needs an overhaul.

No, you do not deserve that T2 BP more than any other player.

And, yes, I did finish reading Das Kapital. Have you?Very Happy

Mortania
Minmatar
No Compromise
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:56:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Quilan Ziller
Originally by: Teufel Hund
Wow who let all the Marxists in? I guess I should just give up 20 million of my 35 million skillpoint character because it isnt fair to the newer players. Since when is there a level playing field in life or in EVE? I hop on to EVE and pray to the R&D agent God for a nice BPO but have yet to see one.

So because I dont have one that means everyone who does have one should give it up or have it turn into a BPC? Doesnt matter how they worked for it, whether saving isk from missions, pirating it from that unlucky guy, mining for weeks, to buy it or training up the skills or paying for 3-4 years worth of EVE to have tons of research points. That is some scary thinking. Im sorry, I dont expect to get a level playing field, I have to level it myself.

Whats next? Players starting with 10 millions skillpoints to make them on a more "fair playing field" as other players? Downright scary.


So, please do tell everybody - why do you think you are special? How do you "deserve" an ISK printer and someone else does not? I pray you also use the words "hard work" and "personal responsibility" in your spiel.

See, the PvP side of the game is actually balanced in such a way that a 5 mil SP noob has a chance of winning against a 35 mil SP character. And, yes, it has been done on purpose, and actually makes this game fun. As for T2 BPs, currently they amount to an "I-Win-EVE" button. They produce ungodly income with very little effort involved. As such, they are unbalanced - in a game mechanics "unbalanced" sense. There is nothing Marxist in stating that the current T2 manufacturing system is unbalanced, corrupted ("recent events" anyone?), and needs an overhaul.

No, you do not deserve that T2 BP more than any other player.

And, yes, I did finish reading Das Kapital. Have you?Very Happy


Do you advocate for the removal of real world lotteries as well? People love em! Most people who have a T2 BPO because they paid ISK for it. They did in fact EARN it.

Phyrr
Minmatar
The Gosimer and Scarab
Posted - 2007.03.02 09:58:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Phyrr on 02/03/2007 10:03:22

I for one will take you up on your offer. Although I may need a little time(maybe a day or two) to get the necessary skills. I shall PM you soon.

Quilan Ziller
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.03.02 10:09:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Mortania

Do you advocate for the removal of real world lotteries as well? People love em! Most people who have a T2 BPO because they paid ISK for it. They did in fact EARN it.


For one, no lottery IRL gives you a lifetime advantage over your peers. You can win a substantial amount of currency, but that is that. No lottery will allow you to win, say, a lifetime best-selling drug patent.

Furthermore, how is RL relevant to game balance?

EVE's economics and business models don't work like RL analogs... Just like there are no jump gates in orbit around Saturn Sad

And I have already made clear what I do advocate elsewhere in this thread. I advocate the removal of ISK-printer status from the currently existing "good" BPOs. Whether it will be done by buffing Invention, BPC drops from belt rats, conversion of all Vaga BPOs into rechargeable BPCs is largely irrelevant. But ISK printing should be stopped once and for all.

Phyrr
Minmatar
The Gosimer and Scarab
Posted - 2007.03.02 10:13:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Quilan Ziller
Originally by: Mortania

Do you advocate for the removal of real world lotteries as well? People love em! Most people who have a T2 BPO because they paid ISK for it. They did in fact EARN it.


For one, no lottery IRL gives you a lifetime advantage over your peers. You can win a substantial amount of currency, but that is that. No lottery will allow you to win, say, a lifetime best-selling drug patent.

Furthermore, how is RL relevant to game balance?

EVE's economics and business models don't work like RL analogs... Just like there are no jump gates in orbit around Saturn Sad

And I have already made clear what I do advocate elsewhere in this thread. I advocate the removal of ISK-printer status from the currently existing "good" BPOs. Whether it will be done by buffing Invention, BPC drops from belt rats, conversion of all Vaga BPOs into rechargeable BPCs is largely irrelevant. But ISK printing should be stopped once and for all.


There are hundreds of anti t2 threads out there give the gal a break:P

Shameless Avenger
Posted - 2007.03.02 10:16:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Mortania

No, it wasn't being vague, it was a concession that you had made up your mind and nothing I could say would convince you otherwise.



Well, calling people "ignorant" right on the subject line doesn't really help convincing anyone. "Ad hominem"


Ignorance is often confused with stupidity. Though closely related (like the separate but closely related arguements in my multiple threads), aren't the same. Ignorant

Additionally, I signalled out no person. People are welcome to accept the appellation as they see fit.


And that is what we called "flamebait". I'm not falling for it.

Please accept the fact that we don't want T2 producers in game. Why? The reasons have been heavily discussed already. You said it's a crapy BPO? Then deal with the loss like everybody else. People have lost more in ganked freighters and the world haven't stopped.

Shameless Avenger
Posted - 2007.03.02 10:23:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Shameless Avenger on 02/03/2007 10:21:17
Originally by: Mortania

Do you advocate for the removal of real world lotteries as well? People love em! ...



The money generated with the local RL lottery around here made it possible for my son to get a brand new school, fully equiped. He loves that school. That's why people can live with it in RL.

Now what have you done for the comunity with the earnings from T2? Nothing I bet.

Drachma Golea
Caldari
hunter killers
Posted - 2007.03.02 10:27:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: Drachma Golea on 02/03/2007 10:24:01
Mortania, who and whatever people say in your stated case, all kudo's go to you Razz

Redbad
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.03.02 11:32:00 - [72]
 

Mortania, you are the most evil school teacher in all of New Eden! LaughingLaughingLaughing
Looking forward to see your (long) log of shame soon.



Hazurr
Amarr
Krell-Korp
Posted - 2007.03.02 15:15:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Hazurr on 02/03/2007 15:19:29
Mail sent, im looking forward to my bpc Smile

Wait? deliver some of it to you? i gotta get the skills and stuff first, how about you give me an 8-run one?

Drexciyian
The Water Margin Tech
Posted - 2007.03.02 15:17:00 - [74]
 

I turnt one of those down from my RnD agent bout a month or so ago, wonder if its the same one LaughingLaughingLaughing

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2007.03.02 16:22:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Quilan Ziller

But having someone make 2 million from EACH Hammerhead II sold with NO risk, NO grind, and NO effort forever and ever is WRONG.


It is purely a supply issue. If T2 Hammerhead BPOs were like T1 Hammerheads and anyone could purchase them, then this much profit wouldn't be generated. Increase the supply. Don't break the contract of permenance that CCP has created with their long term members.



So you'd be quite happy if, say, 1-run T2 BPCs were to become available from NPC stations in the same way that T1 BPOs are? That's not "punishing" you - you still have your BPO after all, and it would increase supply a fair bit (although not infinitely, since only a certain number of blueprints are spawned at each station per day IIRC).

Mortania
Minmatar
No Compromise
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2007.03.02 17:03:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Quilan Ziller

But having someone make 2 million from EACH Hammerhead II sold with NO risk, NO grind, and NO effort forever and ever is WRONG.


It is purely a supply issue. If T2 Hammerhead BPOs were like T1 Hammerheads and anyone could purchase them, then this much profit wouldn't be generated. Increase the supply. Don't break the contract of permenance that CCP has created with their long term members.



So you'd be quite happy if, say, 1-run T2 BPCs were to become available from NPC stations in the same way that T1 BPOs are? That's not "punishing" you - you still have your BPO after all, and it would increase supply a fair bit (although not infinitely, since only a certain number of blueprints are spawned at each station per day IIRC).


Indeed, I would.

That's one of the many points I have been making in my various posts. Supply is the issue, not the lottery or current BPOs. There is such a supply lack right now that there is no need to remove or change existing BPOs, despite the desires of some jealous few, that everyone can and should have access to T2 in more and varied ways that suits their play style. I'll quote myself from earlier in the thread:

Originally by: Mortania

Make invention nearly as good as BPO (and better in some ways).
Create many different ways for people to gain T2 BPCs and BPOs.
Let those who like to Rat get T2 through ratting (rare drops).
Let those who like to Produce/Build get T2 through invention/exploration.
Let those who like to Mission run get T2 through lotteries (RP purchases of BPCs or lottries of BPOs (like now!)).
Let those who like to Pirate get T2 through blowing up/ransoming those above.
Let those who like to PvP get T2 from the market.

Let's create gameplay and access for everyone. The lottery and existing BPOs are NOT the problem. The problem is that they only provide one access point (two if you argue purchase on the resale market as one), for T2 production. Make MORE ways.


Mortania
Minmatar
No Compromise
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2007.03.02 17:05:00 - [77]
 

Oh to clear up some confusion:

No, we didn't just obtain this BPO now, we've had it for years now.
No, I'm not bitter about having the BPO.

The purpose of this thread is to give away free* BPCs so that anyone who wants to can experience the billions making and AFK riches of T2 production.

Corvinus Drax
Posted - 2007.03.02 17:12:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: Corvinus Drax on 02/03/2007 17:12:35
Edited by: Corvinus Drax on 02/03/2007 17:10:14
I'm just recent to the game, so apologies if this suggestion has been made before in regards to the T2 BPO debate. But:

Why not give invention a chance to produce a T2 BPO?

I imagine loads of people will toss their hat in the ring to invent the "cash cow" T2 BPOs if they could. Wouldn't this also be a method to allow for a constant supply of T2 BPOs and increase competition in this market?

The lottery has people up in arms because there is no reliable way to predict what BPO you may get if you get one at all. Similarly, invention produces BPCs with less than competitive values. This would solve that issue, as you would only be 'working' for a BPO you were interested in producing. Also, make it the only method of obtaining a T2 BPO. RPs can be used to obtain the datacores for invention as I understand it, so long time research agent runners would have an initial edge on those new to the game.

I'm not advocating making it an easy process. But allowing for more competition on a level playing field (BPO vs BPO) can only be a good thing for the market right?

This way you wouldn't need to take the BPOs away from those people who already have them (which would incite my ire if I had one), and you would also be increasing the supply at the same time. Experienced industrialists would have an edge on new producers, research time already done, logistics sorted and such. But the advantage wouldn't be an immutable one. Given enough time, it will sort itself out.

*edited for spelling*

Mortania
Minmatar
No Compromise
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2007.03.02 17:18:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Corvinus Drax
Edited by: Corvinus Drax on 02/03/2007 17:12:35
Edited by: Corvinus Drax on 02/03/2007 17:10:14
I'm just recent to the game, so apologies if this suggestion has been made before in regards to the T2 BPO debate. But:

Why not give invention a chance to produce a T2 BPO?

I imagine loads of people will toss their hat in the ring to invent the "cash cow" T2 BPOs if they could. Wouldn't this also be a method to allow for a constant supply of T2 BPOs and increase competition in this market?

The lottery has people up in arms because there is no reliable way to predict what BPO you may get if you get one at all. Similarly, invention produces BPCs with less than competitive values. This would solve that issue, as you would only be 'working' for a BPO you were interested in producing. Also, make it the only method of obtaining a T2 BPO. RPs can be used to obtain the datacores for invention as I understand it, so long time research agent runners would have an initial edge on those new to the game.

I'm not advocating making it an easy process. But allowing for more competition on a level playing field (BPO vs BPO) can only be a good thing for the market right?

This way you wouldn't need to take the BPOs away from those people who already have them (which would incite my ire if I had one), and you would also be increasing the supply at the same time. Experienced industrialists would have an edge on new producers, research time already done, logistics sorted and such. But the advantage wouldn't be an immutable one. Given enough time, it will sort itself out.

*edited for spelling*


I think that would be a great idea, personally. It would need to be unpredictable, itself. Personally, I'd love it if invention where a more static guarantee, like production, with much higher barriers of entry, and then as you suggest, a random very small percentage chance of making a BPO, too.

Corvinus Drax
Posted - 2007.03.02 17:26:00 - [80]
 

If what I suggested were implemented in such a manner, it could also be applied in the exact same way for T3 modules and ships if/when they are introduced. Simply, invent off of a T2 BPC that you have, in the same way it is done for T2, with higher requirements of course. Current T2 producers will still have a leg-up in the race, and they should given their time investment so far. But others new to the game could get off the starting line given the time.

In such a system, you could increase the chances of invention producing a BPC (with some sane attributes), with a marginal chance of hitting a BPO. Slow and steady increase in BPO supply, which will bring competition and the market will do the rest.

Splagada
Minmatar
Tides of Silence
Posted - 2007.03.02 17:27:00 - [81]
 

please contract a few of those for me !

if it killed titans it can be good YARRRR!!

Rowdy Yates
Caldari
Redneck Rangers
Posted - 2007.03.02 17:40:00 - [82]
 




A truly random BPO lottery was a great idea.

However cheating devs killed it.

Shame really. It reproduced the real world effect of "haves" and "have nots" nicely.


(Background: On my main I have one crappy tech II cruise missile bpo. I only build cruise missile for myself and my corp mates and I don't do that very often. I sold one batch of 5000 in Rens a long time ago at a loss. I like having my tech II bpo, but it's nothing great.)





Martosh Toma
Gallente
Fraction Investment
Posted - 2007.03.02 18:05:00 - [83]
 

To be honest, I think it is sad that the bpo lottery goes. I think it was one of the fairest means availeble at the time to introduce limited t2 production.
I do however agree with the op that t2 production needs to be opened up to more people. This does not equate to free (or even expensive) bpo for everyone

Pleace make t2 bpc readely availeble trough Invention (needs improvement), missioning and ratting (so every major group/playstyle in eve has an accespoint) but keep a limit on the amount of bpo, and keep an eye on what happens with t2 so it does not ever become as common as t1

For those people that missed it, EVE is a game about interaction. Having a limited number of labs, factories, planets, moons, systems or whatever other resource is a way in wich this interaction is enforced. and it is also what gives value to obtaining it.

By what ever means the bpo end up being introduced next time (supposing more t2 or even t3 bpo will be introduced).
I hope it will be at least as fair as the lottery has been (Ignoring the recent incedent as acording to the words of some posters on this tread, stating their opinion that worthless bpo should be ignored for these arguments. And we all know t2 ammo bpo certainly fall within that categogory)

Almarez
Setenta Corp
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2007.03.02 18:45:00 - [84]
 

How many does each run make?

Sarf
Spacelane Logistics
Posted - 2007.03.02 20:41:00 - [85]
 

I would like to throw out another idea for bringing costs down and increasing supply. Make the build times half what they are now. This will double the supply and there fore decrease price ans a over supply happens.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2007.03.02 20:57:00 - [86]
 

I think it's ironic that the point the OP is trying to make, that T2 BPO's are not simply ISK printing machines, is correct, but the argument and practical experiement offered are horribly flawed.

Dunpeal
Caldari
M'8'S
Posted - 2007.03.02 21:08:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: James Duar
Wow! It would almost seem like you're trying to straw-man the position that a T2 BPO is an ISK printing machine by pointing out how your's isn't.

But wait a minute! No one uses smartbombs to start with! Everyone wants a faster, better, stronger cruiser! Maybe there would be a huge mark up on a limited supply item which everyone wants! Could it possibly be, that in fact there's a strong differential in the value of T2 items based on their usages and desirability as T1 items, and that perhaps the existence of T2 BPOs that are not profitable doesn't change the problem cited with T2, that it gives certain individuals, by chance, huge wealth possibilities?

No of course not! Because that type of thinking is completely irrational Rolling Eyes


/Signed

Laughing

BobFromMarketing
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.03.02 21:34:00 - [88]
 

Ill take this challenge, but not with the BPO you listed. I'd like to do it with Covert Ops Cloak ^_^ And heck ill even up the ante. I bet I can make 50+ a week and deliver 10 to the owner a week.

And I wont be selling them for 70 freakin mil

Erik Pathfinder
Caldari
M. Corp
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2007.03.02 21:44:00 - [89]
 

Yay! I finally got lucky in the lottery! I am now the proud owner of an ECM - White Noise Generator II Blueprint!

I was so ecstatic when I got it and immdiately looked up the prices on the market! Oh wow, only 500-700k per unit...

Oh well, I thought, maybe the production costs are low and volume is high! So I calculated, subtracted, added, divided, squared, differentiated, etc. Hmmm, the production cost is roughly 200-300k...

Well, that's still 200-500k profit, that just means I have to sell more! Let's look at the volume... 15 units on a good day, often none... damn. And that was Jita. If I sell in Jita the profit doesn't go above 200k per unit either...

What the hell, I thought, I may as well produce a few of these things so I can at least say I tried t2 production. So I looked up the manufacturing requirements. Some standard minerals and a few components, also some trade goods. The minerals I already had, so on to the items. White Noise Generator I's, lots of them! So I bought a BPO which I had to travel to get as only Minmatar stations seem to sell them. Next, the R.A.M. Electronics tool, another BPO, this one pretty easy to get. Now some transmitters... ok, none for sale in my region, thank god Jita isn't far away! The rest of the other items (Nanoelectrical Microprocessors, Radar Sensor Cluster, Miniature Electronics) were all easy to get a hold of.

Now to make these things... hmm, skill needed, Electromagnetic Physics... that's odd, my research agent was Electronic Engineering, oh well. Costly skill, but so be it, I'm about to rake in the millions! So I train the skill, pop the whole thing in the oven and... wait... and wait some more...

20 units of these take well over a day to manufacture. In fact, I think I can at most make 15 of these a day.

Allright, so now I've made some of these things, now to put them on the market! Off to torrinos, surely those PvPers need ECM, they like to jam each other up and amarr ships are popular!

I check the next day... Orders... ECM - White Noise Generator II 20/20. It's been like that for 3 days now. And the price isn't ridiculous either, in fact it's better than anything else nearby.

Now, why did I bother with this long tale? It's not point out that not all t2 BPOs are moneyprinters, because that's already obvious. No, what I wanted to show you is that with a lot of tech2, you have to experiment. I can reduce my costs, if I research my two BPOs related to production and also the t2 BPO itself. I can sell more items if I venture to other market hubs and spread out my orders and locate the selling hotspots. My point is, none of this happens on its own!

Tech2 production is exactly like Tech1 production! You need to keep buying materials for manufacturing (more in t2's case), you have to reduce your costs to maximise profit, you have to do some research to find out where items will sell. Nothing builds/sells itself!

To those of you who say there is no effort involved, I laugh. I imagine I would go crazy sooner than I would make a billion on a Cerberus BPO from all the travelling around to buy parts and skills. Do I think the BPO lottery should be kept as it is? Yes. Anyone who is lucky enough to win one, deserves the experience of investing their time in the product, to learn its value and to see their investment pay off when they get it right.

The only issue I have with the lottery is the limited number of BPOs given out. I DO think a 500m hulk is ludicrous, but at the same time, would there be a point in adding more ECM - White Noise Generator II BPOs? Please consider the difference in the various t2 products before you all judge every t2 producer as evil and "un-deserving".

And lastly, the market is PLAYER-driven, that means prices become what you let them. I'm confident I will eventually earn back the millions I've spent so far, but it will take time...

Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2007.03.02 21:48:00 - [90]
 

Quote:
My point is, none of this happens on its own!


Suggested edit: My point is, none of this happens on its own with my crappy example of a t2 item nobody wants and doesn't represent the ones people have posted a dozen comments on in this topic alone.


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