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Siri Blue
Gallente
Arachnea Phoenix Battalion
Phalanx Alliance
Posted - 2007.02.23 14:23:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Zrakor
Edited by: Zrakor on 23/02/2007 13:44:38
We'll be spicing up the level 4 missions in Empire space with escalating paths, possible commander spawns etc. They won't be as profitable or as hard as level 5 missions, but if you're looking for solo activity they will be fine.

We are also working at giving players more tools to fight against pirates in low sec. We want to see mission runners group up and fight as a gang, defend each other, make corporations and even alliances based on this. The bread and butter of mmorgs is group play, and we really want to nudge people into that. But we will not remove solo activities, and we will not push everyone into low sec (nudge not push), you will still be able to make a good living in high-sec.


That made me chuckle...
Though I don't know if it was out of amusement or being the first sign of an upcoming insanity.

Low sec is called LOW security...it actually is NONE security at all! If you are going to put so much of the new content into low sec, then I DEMAND that I can put my 10.00 Gallente Navy and 10.00 Gallente Federation standings to use and can call upon Navy reinforcements to send those pirates to hell!


Hektor Ramirez
Outer Ring Tourist Information Center
Posted - 2007.02.23 14:24:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Fliewatuet
Stop being jealous and evolve!


There's nothing to be jealous about having a 30 mil SP Amarr char watch over your shoulder while you take down a Mordus Mammoth after killing the rest of Mordus Headhunters in under 2 hours in a domi with 1.8 mil sp, shaking his head Very Happy Anyway, I'm done derailing, it'll all work out.

Ian Novarider
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.02.23 14:43:00 - [63]
 

Angel Extravaganza BONUS room (not the normal mission)
Gurista Extravaganza BONUS room (not the normal mission)
Pirate Slaughter (insane long travel times and hard final stage)
Enemy Abound 5/5 (tricky tide of support frigates, unacceptable standing losses)
World Collide (when buggy and/or laggy --> full stage aggro WC can get ugly)

this is from the perspective of mission runner with a T2 rigged (normal) Raven without faction gear and 33 mill SP. All the missions above are soloable, but one has to be careful and it takes time.

Have fun

Ian

Alesandra
Caldari
CAS Technologies and Logistics
The OSS
Posted - 2007.02.23 15:02:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Elsinaril
Originally by: Dammar
Originally by: Tranvisor
So this is the thread where we decide which missions get taken away from us. Well that's great, I love getting nerfed.


Oh yes, CCP is playin their game all right, haha.


Heads up, most of the missions I have listed are not available in the empire space anyway, so they can be hardly taken away from you Wink


Erm..... sorry to say this is where you are wrong. I have, in the recent past, been given all of these missions while in Empire space. Now I have moved to 0.0 I still get these missions, BUT they do seem a little harder. (maybe due to my not having a clone loaded with crystal implants and using a Faction / t2 fit Raven with expensive rigging)

Laughing

Veinfiller
Posted - 2007.02.23 15:37:00 - [65]
 

i don't find any lvl 4 mission particularily hard (except maybe the sansha side of worlds collide angel/sansha if you're shield-tanking)....unless you accidentally trigger full-room aggro (mainly due to the drone-aggro bug). the ones where you face more resistance are just going to take longer, they're not really more difficult.

i'd suggest leaving lvl 4 missions as they are (or maybe even making them MORE difficult) and come up with more difficult content for lvl 5.

nerfing lvl 4's and making the only challenging PvE content low-sec/gang-only could have a huge negative impact on casual play....if you just have 2-3 hours available for playing, you're really not going to be able to get together a trusted gang and run a low-sec mission. if all thats left in secure space are the easy lvl 4's....hmm :-(

Karxarias
Posted - 2007.02.23 16:21:00 - [66]
 

Yeah I too am trying to figure out how you guys are saying these missions are so hard. I could tank and complete every level 4 mission save the extra room in AE (cuz i can't be bothered to buy the key) in a Domi as a two month old character.

Here's a good trick for you missions nubs, if you warp into a room and get warp-in aggro just tank the dmg and fly at least 70km or more away from the other groups b4 shooting, this will prevent full room aggro and make a lot of these missions you guys are whining about a lot easier. If you kill the pesky webbing and scramming frigs fast unless you are fighting angels if you have an AB on your BS you outrun most BS, BCs and cruisers.

If you have a domi:

4xCap recharger 2s
1xBeta whatever CPR (24% cap regen)
2xCap recharge rigs

And cap skills at rank 3 give you enuff cap regen to run 2 Large T2 Armor Reppers literally forever, you regen more cap than your 2 t2 LARs and 3 Active hardeners use.

Ship will cost ya <300mill and tank 150dps without taking resists into account (which are 70% across the board +/- a couple % with t2 hardeners)

Kery Nysell
Caldari
Nysell Incorporated
Posted - 2007.02.23 16:39:00 - [67]
 

The very first time you do a specific level 4 mission, without doing your "homework" (finding infos on that mission), it will be hard ...

But apart from that, none of the level 4 missions are hard if you know what you do ... of course, the "drone/buddy aggro bug" makes some missions almost impossible (like the Angel Extravaganza for a Dominix pilot), but the design in itself isn't too hard, it's the bug that makes it so ...

Kazor
Posted - 2007.02.23 16:45:00 - [68]
 

it will kinda suck if the level 4s become like level 3s are now as far as the LP reward goes and the really rewarding level 5 missions are only in 0.0....i didnt spend 2 billion and counting on a CNR, faction mods and crystal implants so i could go out to 0.0 and get it all wasted,lol. if level 4s get nerfed to the point that there is no use running them anymore it may be time for me to move on:)

Alejandro Zapata
Minmatar
PAK
Posted - 2007.02.23 16:52:00 - [69]
 

There are no difficult Level 4 missions. They are all do-able SOLO with proper preparation.

One thing I do indeed worry about is with the introduction of Level 5 missions we will return to the days where only one specific type of ship can run that mission solo.

Will these events lead to a further increase in the prevalence of Caldari ships? I use an Absolution and Sleipnir for Lvl 4 missions, and run them with zero difficulty.

Will the Navy Raven be able to do Lvl 5s solo, while other Navy ships are not? Are we headed toward another PvE rush toward Ravens? I fought off the urge long ago to mission run in a Raven, and settled to stay with Amarr and Minmatar, even if it takes a bit more time. Will I have to finally give up and fly a Raven just to be competitive in mission running?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.02.23 17:49:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Zrakor
We'll be spicing up the level 4 missions in Empire space with escalating paths, possible commander spawns etc. They won't be as profitable or as hard as level 5 missions, but if you're looking for solo activity they will be fine.

So far, sounds fairly decent.
About the difficulty part... come on, most L4s are already a joke even with mediocre SP with the "right ship and setup". If you keep the standings gains existant now but make missions even easier... oh well, less grind, so I'm not complaining much.
About the profitability part, well, it's understandable.
Turning ALL bounties down a notch, or even removing bounties altogether and increasing loot/salvage a bit instead will be fine too.
You should do that for L1-L4s, and keep L5+ ISK-focused.

Originally by: Zrakor
We are also working at giving players more tools to fight against pirates in low sec.
We want to see mission runners group up and fight as a gang, defend each other, make corporations and even alliances based on this. The bread and butter of mmorgs is group play, and we really want to nudge people into that.
But we will not remove solo activities, and we will not push everyone into low sec (nudge not push), you will still be able to make a good living in high-sec.


Reaaaaally ? Tools to fight against pirates ?
Forgive me when I'll believe that only when I *SEE* them, not before that.

A PvE-fit ship seldom can handle itself well in PvP, and a PvP-fit ship attempting to run missions will either struggle badly or fail miserably.
So unless you CHANGE mission rats handle almost identical to how a player ship handles, and drastically reduce their numbers and clustering, you WON'T see any "fairness" whatsoever in ANY PvE-vs-PvP ship encounters.

Because quite frankly, I can not even begin to fathom what COULD you even understand under the concept of "tools".
And no, ganging up and running missions in teams of 2,3 or more is not a TOOL.
Also, what's stopping the "pirates" to come in in a larger group and take up residence in a mission-runners corner of lowsec, and keep moving about and ONLY engage the lonely ones, making the others either NOT run missions at all, or get destroyed by overwhelming force if they do ?

A module to "rig the acceleration gate to warn me when somebody is activating it" is a tool.
A deployable that "must be destroyed first to activate an acceleration gate and warn me when that happends" is another tool.
A deployable warning me "you have been picked up by a system scan" would be yet another tool.
Do we get any such tools, or is that just "appeasment-talk" about something that's never going to happend ?
___

You also seem to be under the wrong assumption people run missions because they dislike a fair challenge and only do it for the ISK instead.
Quite the contrary, most people DON'T run missions often enough because they're TOO EASY, too repetitive and too much plain old boring, and they mostly run them because of the blasted moronic standings system.
They also run highsec missions because they don't have the TIME to spend inside the game to ORGANIZE the needed logistics for a half-safe lowsec gang mission-running experience.

Personally, I have much more ISK as I need right now, and can earn more through trades and manufacture, with less effort and online time as I need for mission-running. Still, both me and ALL corp members *HAVE* to run missions because of the way standings work. You made mission-running mandatory, there's NO OTHER WAY to gain standings right now. You can't spend ISK on it, you can't use your skills for it, you have to run missions. You just HAVE to.

And they're BORING. They're EASY. I can't stress that out enough.
Yes, almost all L4s are easily solo-able, with minor exceptions, and even then, two people can handle just about everything that's left.


Before you move top-end missions to lowsec only, do something about the other problem

Mastin Dragonfly
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2007.02.23 18:32:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 23/02/2007 18:30:22
Quote:
A PvE-fit ship seldom can handle itself well in PvP, and a PvP-fit ship attempting to run missions will either struggle badly or fail miserably.
So unless you CHANGE mission rats handle almost identical to how a player ship handles, and drastically reduce their numbers and clustering, you WON'T see any "fairness" whatsoever in ANY PvE-vs-PvP ship encounters.


That is the one of the main problems. Another is that the pirate can pick and choose who to attack and where. The mission runner is bound to the randomly generated location. Also, once the pirate finds the mission, he doesn't even have to destroy the mission runner to hurt him. Escaping on time is great, but if that means I can not finish that mission because a pirate gang is waiting then I'm looking at a SEVERE faction loss with my agent which takes more time to fix then the time to fit a new ship.

Yes, teamwork is great, but a dozen mission runners with crap all pvp experience aren't gonna beat a well-oiled team of experienced pirates half the size.

Fergus Runkle
Minmatar
Truth and Reconciliation Council
Posted - 2007.02.23 19:56:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Zrakor
Edited by: Zrakor on 23/02/2007 13:44:38
We'll be spicing up the level 4 missions in Empire space with escalating paths, possible commander spawns etc. They won't be as profitable or as hard as level 5 missions, but if you're looking for solo activity they will be fine.

We are also working at giving players more tools to fight against pirates in low sec. We want to see mission runners group up and fight as a gang, defend each other, make corporations and even alliances based on this. The bread and butter of mmorgs is group play, and we really want to nudge people into that. But we will not remove solo activities, and we will not push everyone into low sec (nudge not push), you will still be able to make a good living in high-sec.


My corp regularly does level 4's (mostly the ones mentioned here actually) as group events for fun, we are not dedicated solo runners. Please do not take difficult level 4's away from us. We will not be "nudged" into low sec, been there, done that, wearing the clone. It simply will not happen.

By all means introduce level 5's in low sec only, just leave the level 4's as they are please.

Saldun Zexu
Posted - 2007.02.23 21:44:00 - [73]
 

1. Extravaganza
2. Pirate Slaughter
3. World Collide
4. Stop the Thief
5. Silence the Informant

Maya Stone
Posted - 2007.02.23 21:48:00 - [74]
 

IMO

None of the level fours should be moved to level 5. Some are difficult yes but you get a nice variety for challenge.

Don't make level 4s easy BS level missions. Leave them as is and create NEW level 5 missions. The new missions will bring those seeking a change and greater challenge.

Enemies abound level 1
Enemies abound level 5

Rest about the same.

Ezra
Gallente
Calista Industries
Brutally Clever Empire
Posted - 2007.02.23 21:52:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Fergus Runkle
Originally by: Zrakor
Edited by: Zrakor on 23/02/2007 13:44:38
We'll be spicing up the level 4 missions in Empire space with escalating paths, possible commander spawns etc. They won't be as profitable or as hard as level 5 missions, but if you're looking for solo activity they will be fine.

We are also working at giving players more tools to fight against pirates in low sec. We want to see mission runners group up and fight as a gang, defend each other, make corporations and even alliances based on this. The bread and butter of mmorgs is group play, and we really want to nudge people into that. But we will not remove solo activities, and we will not push everyone into low sec (nudge not push), you will still be able to make a good living in high-sec.


My corp regularly does level 4's (mostly the ones mentioned here actually) as group events for fun, we are not dedicated solo runners. Please do not take difficult level 4's away from us. We will not be "nudged" into low sec, been there, done that, wearing the clone. It simply will not happen.

By all means introduce level 5's in low sec only, just leave the level 4's as they are please.

I sort of agree with this. Unlike many of the others who say "we solo because we can't get a group together", my corp routinely runs missions as a group, although even with a group, there are some missions we just plain reject because they're actually harder for a group than a soloer in a faction fitted ship. (See my previous post regarding the "buddy agro" bug - FIX IT ALREADY ZRAKOR! It's been posted about countless times on the forums and also bugreported via the proper channels, with no change seen.)

That said, with the current state of lowsec, none of us have any intention of going there to run missions. Things are simply skewed too far in favor of pirates. Miners and mission runners (especially mission runners) must commit to their activity for extended periods of time to succeed. Pirates, on the other hand, can achieve their goals with "hit, loot, run, dock, log" in 15 minutes or less. I'm not even referring to PvP vs. PvE ship setups here, although the dichotomy between the two is quite similar (tanking for the long haul in missions/mining, vs. "3 hours of boredom followed by 15 seconds of terror" for PvP). Let's face it - players have given up on controlling piracy in lowsec because the pirates will immediately run, dock, and log the moment they sense that any sort of resistance may be forming against them.

You claim you are going to give players the tools they need to fight pirates in lowsec, but so far, I'll believe it when I see it. EVE has been around for nearly four years, and with the exception of a few small tweaks in lowsec (sentry guns, nearly insignificant docking agro timers), nothing has changed to deal with the imbalance in committment required between pirates and other players in lowsec.

I'm not saying that non-pirate players should be given the ability to play in lowsec without committing to what they are doing, but that pirates must be force to commit to their activities in a similar manner. Things like:
A previous poster mentioned deployable modules that would prevent acceleration gate access without being destroyed. (This should of course be configurable to let friendlies through). Such modules would send a broadcast message to local in the locked system when under attack.
Players in a lowsec system should be able to upgrade the security of the system in ways that are agreeable with the owner of that system. (Deployable sentry guns, destroyable gate-locking mechanisms that don't allow passage unless the player has acceptable standing with the faction that owns the destination system, the ability to attack a player with high security status but low faction standing combined with loss of faction standing for attacking a player with high standing with that faction, to name a few possibilities.)

Xelios
Minmatar
Broski Enterprises
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2007.02.23 23:11:00 - [76]
 

To everyone saying these missions aren't hard if you do xxxx, yes, thank you. Just about everyone knows how to beat these missions, but they asked for the 5 hardest lvl 4 missions.

They're all doable solo, but they're still the hardest of the bunch.

kill0rbunny
Caldari
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.02.24 01:01:00 - [77]
 

1. Pirate Slaughter Stage 3
2. Enemys Abound 1-5
3. Worlds Collide
4. Angel Extra Bonusstage
5. Silence the Informant

Just According to Damage incoming.


Shorin
Posted - 2007.02.24 03:38:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Zrakor
Edited by: Zrakor on 23/02/2007 13:44:38
We'll be spicing up the level 4 missions in Empire space with escalating paths, possible commander spawns etc. They won't be as profitable or as hard as level 5 missions, but if you're looking for solo activity they will be fine.

We are also working at giving players more tools to fight against pirates in low sec. We want to see mission runners group up and fight as a gang, defend each other, make corporations and even alliances based on this. The bread and butter of mmorgs is group play, and we really want to nudge people into that. But we will not remove solo activities, and we will not push everyone into low sec (nudge not push), you will still be able to make a good living in high-sec.


Thanks Zrakor. I do have a concern based on what I've read today that empire space will end up being a dead end though, especially if you remove some of my favorite/most difficult missions. I was actually hoping for more challenges, not less. Harder missions with nerfed rewards would be more fun than easier missions (yawn) with normal rewards, so I'm really not trying to get something for nothing. The way it seems now, it is my way of playing that is going to being nerfed. I hope I am wrong. I do not enjoy PvP combat, nor will I ever. I've been playing since the game came out and no amount of carrots or sticks will change me. That's just the way it is.

That being said, here's the list (based on flying a high end CNR). They are all fairly easy, so I'm ranking them based on how much a bad Internet connection would make me sweat...

1. Angel Extravaganza Bonus Section (love that retirement home, lost a CNR once while sweating)
2. Stop the Thief (hardest on my tank I'd say)
3. Worlds Collide (if you don't know what to do, it will probably kill you)
4. Vengeance (not hard, but some have problems with the tank on last BS)
5. Blockade (if you don't know what to do, it could get very bad)

In Caldari space, Guristas Extravaganza isn't as hard as Angel Extravaganza, but would still be in the top 5.

Mordus Headhunters might deserve to be on the list. It does have a certain shock and awe factor to it, although it seems more bark than bite when you actually do it.

I reject In the Midst of Deadspace and Enemies Abound due to standing hits, so can't comment on those. By the sounds of it, perhaps at least one of those deserves to make the list as well.

Xori Ruscuv
Multiversal Enterprise Inc.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.02.24 06:09:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 24/02/2007 06:16:51
My opinion on these changes:

I enjoy PVP. It is what I do. The **** state of the T2 market and bloody resellers make PVP expensive. In order to compete in PVP, I have to buy expensive things. I have two accounts. My other account funds my expensive things. That account has a T2 fit raven, which I run missions on when I need money.

Level 4 missions' value is killed = I don't have income
I don't have income = I can't PVP
I can't PVP = I quit
I quit = you lose 2x paying accounts

Hundreds - IF NOT THOUSANDS - if PVPers/pirates do this.

Take your pick!

(See, I make money so that I can spend money. You can't encourage people to spend money by taking their money away.)


(PS: Don't bother with the risk vs reward argument. Risk vs reward is ****ed. GTC sellers. Resellers. Contract scamming. T2 BPOs. 0.0 ratting - that's right, you heard me. Only a fool dies to belt pirates in 0.0)

Mikal Drey
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.02.24 08:07:00 - [80]
 

hey hey

after a nights sleep on it I think the changes are for the worse.

the jump to L4 missions has been greater because its the top level of mission and the constant cries of 1-2 month old characters being able to do them solo has always been shouted loudest. now your making them easier ? ? ?? ? thats a sad day indeed.

L5 missions into low sec . . Grief fest for mission runners Good day for pierats the fact that they are going to be more like the curent l4's but with sightly adjusted difficulty and the Capital Class capabilities . . I See Dead Carriers. what i dont see is an attempt to poppulate low sec. :(

L6/7 for Capital pilots ? totally cant see the point here and not even sure whats trying to be achieved.

Escallation path in missions .. sounds retty good and may lead somewhere but can this be done dynamicly because what will happen is peeps will find the mission that escallates and just hit that one over and over again as well as DT farm it.

as to difficulty . .they truly arent difficult.

do a mission once and you get the see what spawns, how it works etc. do it a second time to confirm suspicions. do it a third to master it.

The new blockade was well thought up and was a good attempt at dynamic content in a mission but even then all you needed to do was remember not to kill the odd named ship. Mordus, Zor, Silence, Worlds collide all have their tricks that made them alot easier. Even when you get whole pocket aggro it still was very easy because you had other tricks you could do to help with agro management.

I think that making misions more Dynamic and Content more fun and varied is the direction in which missions need to go. If group content is what you guys at CCP are thinking then you could have missions require multiple skilled things eg mining/shooty shooty. or haulling that "might" require an escort. I think it would be fun if you were doing a courier mission then encountered a NPC hyjack team :)

I think that Bigger Badder Harder and Faster doesnt create a better or more difficult mission. It just made people think first before going in solo. @Zrakor you have a pretty clever and intellegent playerbase i think its time ou guys at CCP hit back with even more clever and ebil content. Whoever designed some of the COSMOS missions should help out after all look at the agony avot the kutill datachip mission :) although now you sorted that Twisted Evil

Sorry for the long post,
Mikal Drey


J Valkor
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.02.24 09:26:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: J Valkor on 24/02/2007 09:24:09
Enemies Abound (1/5)
Pirate Slaughter
Vengeance

Two of those are the only ones I have had to warp out for. I don't exactly know what it is about those two. Most missions I can agg the whole room and by the time most of the enemies get in range to do their max DPS most of them are dead anyhow. Not those though. As for Vengeance, that final BS takes a while to kill.

I am 15 mil SP Nighthawk pilot.

Tyler Lowe
DROW Org
Brotherhood of the Spider
Posted - 2007.02.24 09:45:00 - [82]
 

Having spent a few minutes looking through and reading the requests for help and complaints about the same missions in multiple threads on this section of the forums:

Enemies Abound
Stop the Thief
Vengeance
Pirate Slaughter

Those are your most complained about missions, in no particular order.

Since, as an "experienced" mission runner, I don't find any of the level 4's particularly difficult, the number of compliants and requests for help generated by specific missions on the forums seems a much more reasonable measurement of difficulty than my personal experience or opinion.

I did not see enough complaints about any other specific mission to include it in the list, although I guess you could add whatever other missions you'd like to "put in context with what [you] believe is the right context."

Galk
Gallente
Autumn Tactics
All the things she said
Posted - 2007.02.24 11:09:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Galk on 24/02/2007 11:33:30
Originally by: Zrakor
and we will not push everyone into low sec (nudge not push), you will still be able to make a good living in high-sec.


Hehe.

Doesn't take a chimp to realise that the rewards could never be high enough to cover those costs of losing those ships at gates.

Don't you listen.... NOBODY is going to be flying around in mission viable ships in low sec over gates.

Missions are a resource GRIND... so it becomes far less appealing to be doing missions in a ship fitted with standard t1/2 gear.. where you end up having to warp out... doubling/trebling the time it takes to complete it.

unless you have some trump card up your sleeve i don't know about, with what we have now... you could never entice any isk/resource gatherer into low sec... you will allways be making more in ubber fitted gist ravens in high sec over poor counterparts in low sec...

And you know as well as i... you can't raise the bar that high in low sec.. because the organised pro's will just exploit it.

Gl anyway... if there were one suggestion, id say lose the traveling 70-90km gates in low sec.

Bunds
L D U
Posted - 2007.02.24 11:59:00 - [84]
 

i would say
pirate slaughter-guristas
wc -serpentis/guristas
enemies abound 5 of 5
angel extrava bonus stage
stop the theif.


Cyclops43
Posted - 2007.02.24 12:20:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Zrakor
We'll be spicing up the level 4 missions in Empire space with escalating paths, possible commander spawns etc. They won't be as profitable or as hard as level 5 missions, but if you're looking for solo activity they will be fine.

At the moment, I think the difficulty level of lvl 4's is generally ok. There aren't many that are too tough for a decently skilled BS pilot, and you REALLY should leave the difficulty level of them as they are.
There are quite a few players who're casual players (i.e. they don't have time to find a group of other players to run low-sec missions with), and if you remove the difficult level 4's, you'll be cutting these players off in challenges at about 3-4 months gaming time.
So please, don't nerf level 4's (yes, removing the difficult missions IS nerfing, no matter what you try to call it).
Originally by: Zrakor
We are also working at giving players more tools to fight against pirates in low sec. We want to see mission runners group up and fight as a gang, defend each other, make corporations and even alliances based on this. The bread and butter of mmorgs is group play, and we really want to nudge people into that.

Sorry, but I think you're promising more than you can deliver here....

The pirate has all the advantages over anyone else in low-sec, purely for one reason: HE picks whoever he attacks!
The PvE'er will be dead if he's attacked, pure and simple! Why? Because the attacker fits his ship to do that, while the PvE'er has fitted his ship to fight NPC's. In addition, the attacker has NO risk, since the PvE'er will not fit warp scramblers.

It's all well and good for you to talk about 'groups', 'corps' and 'alliances' etc., but in reality it doesn't work, since the people with that inclination is already in 0.0.
The only people who WOULD group up in low-sec are the PIRATES!

Also remember that many pirate characters are ALT accounts, while a lot (maybe most) mission characters are single/main accounts. This is a very significant difference, because if the pirate is camped in, he'll just play his other character, but if the mission runner is camped in, he is UNABLE to play!!!!

For this to work, you'd have to drastically change the way either low-sec or missions work.

For low-sec, it currently isn't 'LOW-sec'. It is 'no-bloody-security-whatsoever' and is (much) more dangerous than 0.0.
To make it possible to PvE here, you'd have to help the PvE'er significantly. The only thing I can really think would work somewhat, is CONCORD assistance if attacked. I'm not thinking high-sec CONCORD insta-death, but a measured response that takes away the pirate's numerical and fitting advantages.

For missions, there's already been some suggestions in this thread, but here are a couple more:
1. Reintroduce mines. Make it possible to deploy mines around accelleration gates or something like that...
2. Make hacking an acceleration gate required before a pirate can come through, with the mission runner getting a warning or something like that.

As I said before, I REALLY don't think you can make low-sec attractive to mission runners unless you severely nerf pirating (or make low-sec MORE profitable than 0.0). Look at the reasons above for why....

Joshua Deakin
Posted - 2007.02.24 12:47:00 - [86]
 

In the midst of deadspace 4/5 second room. It's supposedly easy, only has a few ships and a gate to be destroyed. Problem is that there's a trigger (I don't what/how the trigger works) and the second room can be a full of reinforcements. I asked for a help and unfortunately the helper (T2 fitted Raven) was only able to boost about three times before his shields were down, he tried to warp out (was not scrambled) but just didn't have enough time align and warp. Needless to say I had to decline the mission with a severe faction loss.

Ludmilla Derik
Posted - 2007.02.24 15:28:00 - [87]
 

I say every Mission is easy when you know exactly what happens when you do this or that.

The real Challange is SURPRISE.

I saw that in the new Exploration Complexes, they are (were) a lot of fun fly. But after the 10 times you know exactly which ship you have to shoot as last for the respawn and so on.

So here is my Idea for the new Mission: Make the triggers for respawns and aggro Triggers normal NPC Ships.
So you see 5 Cruisers in the first spawn, all the same name and one is the Bomb respawing 8 cruisers. In this respawn (again the same typs as to begin) is also one trigger for the last respawn.

So doing that mission can be quiet easy and boring ( shooting the triggers at last) or more challenging as you can have suddendly 15+ Crusiers on you ( bad luck you shoot both thriggers)



Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.02.24 16:38:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Cyclops43
Also remember that many pirate characters are ALT accounts, while a lot (maybe most) mission characters are single/main accounts. This is a very significant difference, because if the pirate is camped in, he'll just play his other character, but if the mission runner is camped in, he is UNABLE to play!!!!


Riiiiiight. Assumptions != facts.

Personally I see far far more people saying they have missionrunning alts than PvP alts.

Cyclops43
Posted - 2007.02.24 17:55:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Cyclops43
Also remember that many pirate characters are ALT accounts, while a lot (maybe most) mission characters are single/main accounts. This is a very significant difference, because if the pirate is camped in, he'll just play his other character, but if the mission runner is camped in, he is UNABLE to play!!!!


Riiiiiight. Assumptions != facts.

Personally I see far far more people saying they have missionrunning alts than PvP alts.

As there is no statistics on this, I had nothing to go from except what is common among the people I talk to in the game. That's as close to facts as I or anyone else can get...
Most of the people this char (my oldest, btw.) talks to are people with single accounts, and they generally do missions. Most people other characters chat to are in 0.0 PvP corp, and if they pirate, it's with an alt.

It doesn't really matter anyway, because no matter what, all these single-account mission runner players will NOT be able to play if camped, and playing IS what they're paying for. That is not a good incentive to keep p(l)aying...

Imagine having an hour to play EVE in the evening after the kids have been put to bed. Looking forward to a little bit of relaxation (and the player has played EVE for a while, so lvl 4's offer no challenge, especially if they're nerfed as suggested). DOH! Station/system camped by pirates, so can't do anything.
A typical reaction would be 'Why the h... am I paying for this!', which I don't really think is the reaction CCP would like people to have when trying to play.

Also, in your last sentence, you're assuming that PvP=Pirate. However, I specifically meant PIRATE alts, not PvP alts (of which there are very few). There is a large difference between the two.

Zhaine
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2007.02.24 19:38:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Zhaine on 24/02/2007 19:35:44
Pirate Slaughter is nasty
Enemies Abound hurts
Vengeance and Worlds Colide I turn down

Apart from that I'm sure it's the Extravs, but my agents never ever seem to give them to me. Blockade is easy (ie it never challenges a good tank, which the above do) but I'm pretty sure it's by far the most isk/hour on the current LvL 4s.

Off topic:

If you can't see a problem with being able to make isk/hour comparable (though maybe not equal) to 0.0 ratting with zero risk or chance of interuption (which hi sec running is) then you fundamentally mis-understand how this game works and is intended to work.

If you don't believe you should have to undertake risk and work with others to get the best rewards then you're playing the wrong game.

If you don't think CCP are considering those who want to solo in empire and ensuring that they still have something to do then, well, you can't read.

And low sec running is really not very dangerous. Pick your spot, don't use drones, turn down missions where you have to move systems (or use a scout). Don't believe the hype!

EDIT: Oh and just to clear any confusion, this char never runs missions. I run them in low sec with my alt.


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